An Article on free will

[The Rogue Tomato]

I'm not going to quote them all but here is a high calvinist Gill -its the position of most all high calvinists like MacArthur, White, Sproul etc... I don't think I'm right, I know I'm right. Like I said I taught the same thing for decades and use to quote all the Reformed theologians who taught the same.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God,.... The main and principal one, and which is well pleasing in his sight; and without which it is impossible to please him; and without which no work whatever is a good work; and this is of the operation of God, which he himself works in men; it is not of themselves, it is the pure gift of God:

Pretty much what I said. Faith is the work done by God, not man. If it was done by man, then you could say we were saved by works, which is anathema.

 

[civic]

If your right then quote them.

How many more do you need another dozen ?

Genuine faith … is granted by God … faith is a supernatural gift of God … faith is not something that is conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift (cf. Php 1:29) (MacArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus, 172-173).

Faith is God’s gift. In no degree could a natural man produce faith. It is utterly beyond him. Let us adore the God who gives it (Wells, Faith, 55).

Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are wrought in the soul through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit (Steele, The Five Points of Calvinism).

Faith is a gift from God … it is permanent … the faith that God gives begets obedience … God gave it to you and He sustains it … May God grant you a true saving faith, a permanent gift that begins in humility and brokenness over sin and ends up in obedience unto righteousness. That’s true faith and it’s a gift that only God can give, and if you desire it, pray and ask that He would grant it to you (MacArthur, Transcribed Tape GC 90-21).

 

[Presby02]

If God gives man faith then God zaps/gifts them with faith. Its the same thing. You never believed, God gave you the belief.

No, that's how you like to characterize what we believe. It's called poisoning the well. No Reformed person teaches such a thing.

God does grant or gives belief, also repentance.

 

[Presby02]

How many more do you need another dozen ?

Genuine faith … is granted by God … faith is a supernatural gift of God … faith is not something that is conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift (cf. Php 1:29) (MacArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus, 172-173).

Faith is God’s gift. In no degree could a natural man produce faith. It is utterly beyond him. Let us adore the God who gives it (Wells, Faith, 55).

Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are wrought in the soul through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit (Steele, The Five Points of Calvinism).

Faith is a gift from God … it is permanent … the faith that God gives begets obedience … God gave it to you and He sustains it … May God grant you a true saving faith, a permanent gift that begins in humility and brokenness over sin and ends up in obedience unto righteousness. That’s true faith and it’s a gift that only God can give, and if you desire it, pray and ask that He would grant it to you (MacArthur, Transcribed Tape GC 90-21).

And the zap part?? How about believes for you? Just two the the ridiculous strawman asserted here.

 

[civic]

Piper says the same thing

Is Faith a Gift of God? Ephesians 2:8–10, Part 1

If I am commanded to believe the gospel, is faith something I create, or is it a gift of God?

www.desiringgod.org

So does Hendryx

Answers to Objections to Faith Being a Gift of God

I rest my case - what I said was/is true regarding Calvinists and faith.

hope this helps !!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And the zap part?? How about believes for you? Just two the the ridiculous strawman asserted here.

Really. One testimony isn't proof, but I can tell you my "zap" took at least 2 years. Over a week or so, I went from being an atheist to believing God exists. It was at least a year before I even began dealing with who Jesus is.

 

[civic]

No, that's how you like to characterize what we believe. It's called poisoning the well. No Reformed person teaches such a thing.

God does grant or gives belief, also repentance.

yep you don't have faith it was never your faith since God gave you the belief itself. You have proven my point. Thanks !

 

[praise_yeshua]

And

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)

It really is amazing what Calvinist don't actually know about Calvin.

 

[civic]

God does grant or gives belief

Not according to CALVIN

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It really is amazing what Calvinist don't actually know about Calvin.

That's because we often call ourselves "Calvinists" as a shorthand for "sovereignty and election", not because we follow or even read Calvin. I stopped calling myself a Calvinist for this very reason. I couldn't possibly care less about what Calvin wrote.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Not according to CALVIN

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)

So you're illustrating that Calvin was wrong. That's fine by me.

 

[Presby02]

yep you don't have faith it was never your faith since God gave you the belief itself. You have proven my point. Thanks !

No one said it's not your faith. When it's gifted to you. I can, "in all things give thanks", even for my faith that was gifted to me by the grace of God.

Now about those quotes? God zaps faith, believes for you. Then I can thank you as well.

SOLA DEO GLORIA

 

[civic]

It really is amazing what Calvinist don't actually know about Calvin.

Ya think lol- its quite embarrassing if you ask me. I remember correcting so many of them with Arminius when they would talk about Arminians. Many do not know what Calvin taught/believed and misrepresent Arminians and other non calvinists.

 

[Kermos]

Not when he was on earth

I will affirm Christ's choice of his disciples, which while Christ was on earth he was choosing his messengers who would carry his message into the world. He was not at that time trying to attract large groups, thus he hid truth in parables, drove men away with hard sayings, he told some not to reveal who he was, and some were hardened. His mission at that time was to go to the cross and select a limited subset of men to carry his message after the cross

If you ignore that context, you will go into error

and men are born again by faith in the gospel/receiving Christ

James 1:18 (ESV) — 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:18–23 (ESV) — 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

You convey that man causes himself to be born again because man works faith/belief inside himself thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, and your "men are born again by [controlling their own] faith in the gospel/receiving Christ" is that conveyance, but we are about to see that your conveyance is the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Nobody causes himself to be born, so your conveyance is confusion (2 Corinthians 5:14).

The Christ of us Christians lovingly declares "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).

The Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief inside of man with absolutely no input by man with faith/belief in God:

​

by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10).​

​

The Apostle Peter is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief inside of man with absolutely no input by man with faith/belief in God:

​

but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted, Christ, foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that the faith of you and hope are in God, the souls of you having purified in the obedience to the truth through Spirit, into a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another out of pure heart​

(1 Peter 1:19-22).​

​

You quoted James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:18–23, 1 Corinthians 4:15, and Ephesians 1:13, and God controls every occurrence of believers, faith, and believed; therefore, your "men are born again by [controlling their own] faith in the gospel/receiving Christ" is confusion (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Moving on to your folly of "Not when he was on earth" by which your heart disavows that the Word of God speaks blessings to all children of God in all time.

Christ’s mission is to save man whom Christ chooses, and man exercises no choice in the matter, but God alone does the choosing of man unto salvation for the Word of God says “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8). According to your words there, you cannot be born again.

By God’s grace and for God’s glory, I inquired of you, “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?”, and your response, “Yes” is visible, above.

Let’s take a look at Lord Jesus Christ’s usage of “you” with which the above question and answer pertains:

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(John 15:15-16 (you had replied to a fully quoted John 15:14-19 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))​

​

You express conflicted thoughts about the population of Christ’s “you” in the passage. I remind you for this exchange that I consider you to write “apostles” whenever you write “disciples”.

Your response of “Yes” shows your personal claim of being part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I have called you friends” (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart’s “it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen” eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I chose you” (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart’s treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your “Yes” and “it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen” expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) “Yes No” concept about the audience represented in Christ’s “you” recorded in John 15:14-19.

We Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!!! HALLELUJAH!!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, that's how you like to characterize what we believe. It's called poisoning the well. No Reformed person teaches such a thing.

God does grant or gives belief, also repentance.

Got to love someone that doesn't know the Reformers claiming the Reformers never taught "such a thing".

You're something else. Amazing. Self satisfying and complete. I wonder why you just can't admit that you're god. Go for it. Quote "ye are Gods". Go for it. You know you want to do it.

 

[civic]

No one said it's not your faith. When it's gifted to you. I can, "in all things give thanks", even for my faith that was gifted to me by the grace of God.

Now about those quotes? God zaps faith, believes for you. Then I can thank you as well.

SOLA DEO GLORIA

nope its not your faith when you did not believe since God magically gave it to you irresistibly- the " I " in TULIP.

remember you were a dead corpse right ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Ya think lol- its quite embarrassing if you ask me. I remember correcting so many of them with Arminius when they would talk about Arminians. Many do not know what Calvin taught/believed and misrepresent Arminians and other non calvinists.

I've seen it for so long and it just keeps happening. One minute they say they're not Calvinists and the next they're defending Calvinism or the "doctrines of grace"....

Talk about novices "poisoning the well".....

Double mindedness is everywhere.

 

[Presby02]

Not according to CALVIN

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)

Philippians 1:29

Of course that is the same quite you provided for John 6:29. Was he referring to both?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You convey that man causes himself to be born again because man works faith/belief inside himself thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, and your "men are born again by [controlling their own] faith in the gospel/receiving Christ" is that conveyance, but we are about to see that your conveyance is the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Nobody causes himself to be born, so your conveyance is confusion (2 Corinthians 5:14).

The Christ of us Christians lovingly declares "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).

The Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief inside of man with absolutely no input by man with faith/belief in God:

by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10).
​

The Apostle Peter is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief inside of man with absolutely no input by man with faith/belief in God:

but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted, Christ, foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that the faith of you and hope are in God, the souls of you having purified in the obedience to the truth through Spirit, into a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another out of pure heart
(1 Peter 1:19-22).
​

You quoted James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:18–23, 1 Corinthians 4:15, and Ephesians 1:13, and God controls every occurrence of believers, faith, and believed; therefore, your "men are born again by [controlling their own] faith in the gospel/receiving Christ" is confusion (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Moving on to your folly of "Not when he was on earth" by which your heart disavows that the Wrd of God speaks blessings to all children of God in all time.

Christ’s mission is to save man whom Christ chooses, and man exercises no choice in the matter, but God alone does the choosing of man unto salvation for the Word of God says “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8). According to your words there, you cannot be born again.

By God’s grace and for God’s glory, I inquired of you, “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, TomL?”, and your response, “Yes” is visible, above.

Let’s take a look at Lord Jesus Christ’s usage of “you” with which the above question and answer pertains:

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(John 15:15-16 (you had replied to a fully quoted John 15:14-19 (links to KJV, NASB1995, and YLT)))
​

You express conflicted thoughts about the population of Christ’s “you” in the passage. I remind you for this exchange that I consider you to write “apostles” whenever you write “disciples”.

Your response of “Yes” shows your personal claim of being part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I have called you friends” (John 15:15), but then in the continuation of the very same blessing, your heart’s “it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen” eliminates you, TomL, from being a part of the “you” population inside of God’s blessing of “I chose you” (John 15:16); therefore, you are not a chosen friend of Jesus according to your own self-willed heart’s treasure which leavens your whole loaf of free-willian philosophy (Matthew 16:6).

In effect, your “Yes” and “it was Christ words [exclusively] to the disciples messengers he had chosen” expresses a confused (1 Corinthians 14:33) “Yes No” concept about the audience represented in Christ’s “you” recorded in John 15:14-19.

We Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!!! HALLELUJAH!!!

Copy.... paste.... copy.... paste.... copy... paste.

 

[Presby02]

nope its not your faith when you did not believe since God magically gave it to you irresistibly- the " I " in TULIP.

remember you were a dead corpse right ?

It is, however, my faith when it is gifted to me.

Add magically to zaps, believes for you to the list of strawmen.