civic
Well-known member
trusting involves action on our part agree ?
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
It is you who deny grace.
brightfame52
Well-known member
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Wiggling???? You're the squirmiest person I think I have ever meet.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Do you realize that faith and grace are different words but you treat them the same. Why is that?
Why are they different words if God's intend for them to be treated identically.
In the narrative you preach, there is no need of faith. "Grace" would just be the end of the conversation.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
the first thing I would say is there is no conditional aspects of our salvation. We are guilty, under the penalty of sin, and nothing we can do will remove that judgment
John 3: 3 Jesus makes a statement of fact. We must be born again. John 3: 10-18 Jesus answers Nicodemus' question about HOW we are born again. Whoever looks to the cross in faith. will never perish and has eternal life.
This required free will
John 8 - Major issue with this. He spoke of their desire. they rejected Jesus in unbelief. so as Jesus said in John 3, they are already condemned. The issue is, there is a good chance some of them repented later.
John 10 does not remove free will. The sheep still chose to follow him.
Rom 8 is about pleasing God. We are not saved by pleasing God.. an unsaved person can not please God.. All this says is that the unsaved can not do any good works.. Not that they can not chose to receive Gods grace gift.
1 cor 2. Yes, they can not receive the things of God. Unless God intervenes. which he does. The HS convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment. its why when they stand in front of God on judgment day they will be cast out. Because the spirit helped to so they could chose. and they rejected him.
eph 2 is troublesome for the fatalist
1. Paul said in chapter one a person is given the HS after they hear and believe
2. It is sad that we would stop at vs 3 in eph 2. Because Paul continues
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
He repeats the same thing, then says how we were made alive (by grace)
then as we continue, In vs 8, he says this saving action was by Grace, But through faith.
so free will again in chapter 1 and chapter 2 is assured.
also. we do not cooperate with God. this is some Calvinist reasoning. there is 2 people laying in a wrecked care, trapped with no way to get out. Both have suffered fatal wounds, and are in need of rescue
God come to them, and offeres them both salvation.
the one says no tank you. I will save myself. or says he does not need Gods help he does not even believe in God
the other says yes God please save me
The one that was saved did not cooperate with the savior. he just allowed the savior to save him, He also did not work to earn his salvation. The rescuer did all the word.
Christs death accomplish salvation for all mankind. But he will not force anyone to recieve it
Thats why condemnation is a result of unbelief (not sin) ths sin debt is paid.
Salvation can not be lost. because it can not be earned. You will never be good enough to earn salvation. so you can never be bad enough to unearn salvation. I have eternal life Not conditional life (eternal security(
I reject this notion. All 5 points of calvinism are unbiblical.
Again, One does not get saved by pleasing God. so to say they can not please God is a false pretense.
Based on his foreknowledge
God is a God of love. he can not tell us to love unconditionally all men, including our enemy, If God does not do that himself. which calvinism teaches that he does not love all men unconditionally.
Agree for the most part.
As I think I said earlier. I am probably a 3 point Arminian. But I reject both doctrinal thinking. and would rather just say I am a child of God.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
what kind of action?
we have to be careful applying conditions to salvation..
We can not do anything to earn or merit salvation.
I just am very careful when people start putting conditions.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@praise_yeshua
It doesnt make any difference they are different words, faith/believing is because of Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
It doesnt make any difference they are different words, faith/believing is because of Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Once again. You're growing famous in this........
You selectively quoted me and didn't deal with what I said. Can you deal with the other portion of my reply?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
A drowning man that calls out for help can never take credit for being saved. However, that person certainly wouldn't get saved if he didn't cry out.....
Asking God to save you doesn't equate to any merit of the gift. What could God have done more?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I gave up choosing between Calvinism and Arminianism. That limits possibilities. I gave up choosing between Roman Catholics and Protestants. That limits possibilities. I gave up choosing between the children of Ishmael, Isaac and Keturah because that limits possibilities too.
Like I have said. Abraham didn't chose between his sons. The only seed that has any promises is also the Son of God.....
Jesus Christ is the standard. Not Peter. Not Paul. Not any man but the God man Jesus Christ.
Obadiah
Well-known member
God knows we are drowning but in order to be saved you need to grab hold of the life preserver that He has made available, "Jesus".
A drowning man that hears the gospel must respond to it (cry out) in acceptance in order to be saved.
Also a drowning man may see the life of a saved person and ask God to save him also.
Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. In the same way, your light must shine so that it can be seen by others; this will enable them to observe your good works and give praise to your Father in heaven.
Matthew 5:16
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
a person cry's out to get someone's attention.
God comes to us..
again, we need to be careful.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
GOD CAME TO US... that is why I asked "what more could God have done"....
The Gospel draws men to Jesus Christ. That is why the Gospel is preached. There no conversion without the preaching of the Gospel.
That can take place through someone reading the Scriptures. It take place with someone reading this forum. Reading a website. Reading the internet. It can take place from many source. It can take place from mother or father preaching Jesus to their children......
This MUST happen BEFORE....
How shall they call upon one that have not heard......
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
What Calvinism in "election" teaches (which many people believe from Calvinism is the "election" teaching) is not true. Many people are a 1 point Calvinist. That point is Election as taught by many people over many centuries.
If you can ever get a "Calvinist" to admit they can't be saved without first hearing the Gospel, you will have made a significant difference in their lives. It will start a chain of events that will change them.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
Nothing
we either get in his way (unbelief) or we let him do what he came to do (believe)
there is not a third option
John Evens
Member
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
It appears to me that you are basically a 1 point Calvinist when it comes to election. Does a person have to hear the Gospel first to be born again?
Jesus is the Gospel message.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Absolutely....
I don't even understand how a Calvinist can turn this fact into the necessity of some magical "spiritual hearing".
It simply means what it says. It can be taken at "face value"...
civic
Well-known member
Strong's Lexicon pisteuó: To believe, to have faith, to trust Original Word: πιστεύωPart of Speech: Verb Transliteration: pisteuó Pronunciation: pis-tyoo'-o Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o) Definition: To believe, to have faith, to trust Meaning: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with. Word Origin: Derived from πίστις (pistis), meaning "faith" or "belief." Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - H539 (אָמַן, 'aman): To confirm, support, or be faithful. - H982 (בָּטַח, batach): To trust, to have confidence, to be bold. Usage: The Greek verb "pisteuó" primarily means to believe or to have faith. It conveys a sense of trust and reliance upon someone or something. In the New Testament, it is often used to describe the act of believing in Jesus Christ for salvation, trusting in God's promises, and having faith in the truth of the Gospel. This belief is not merely intellectual assent but involves a deep, personal trust and commitment. Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, belief was often associated with trust in the gods or in philosophical truths. However, the New Testament writers redefined "pisteuó" within the context of a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. This belief was not just about accepting doctrines but involved a transformative trust that led to a new way of living. The early Christian community emphasized faith as central to salvation, contrasting it with the works-based righteousness prevalent in Jewish and pagan practices of the time. |
