An Article on free will

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yeah, I think that's honestly a big part of the problem. There is just not a lot of informed Arminians out there and so much misinformation being spread around by people who put no effort into learning. Calvinists have been particularly bad spreading misinformation about Arminianism.

That and the fact that it appears anyone who does not agree with them must be arminian. So people on the outside probably are very confused as to what that is

This is sort of the popular uneducated stereotype spread about online. In actual fact, OSAS is considered within the larger umbrella of Arminianism. Almost no one I've met even knows that Arminius himself believed in OSAS, although he had real doubts about it. Later on his followers decided against it when they formulated their 5 points. However, OSAS itself was birthed out of the logic of Calvinism, and no one in the history of the church really believed in it except the Gnostics, until Calvinism took hold and spawned this belief with their mistaken logic that any action must necessarily be an attempt to merit something.

This is Think is another misnomer

OSAS is not even calvinistic, But sadly it appears everyone hears the word And determines if you believe this, you must be a calvinist (Its interesting, I never even heard the term until I can into a chatroom (christianchat) about 5 years ago. And when people spoke against it. I would attempt to discuss with them, and could never get a word in, Eventually I found out that it is because they thought i must be calvinist because I believed in eternal security (I personally like that term better than (OSAS.) and the deeper I got in. I realized there is no discussion possible. Because everyone argued from an Anticalvinist starting point. So no one understand what I believed or why. Nor could they.

Please see this study here to clear up that confusion:

Yes, I am discussing that with him also. He thinks belief is us trying to merit salvation. But faith is not meriting salvation.

If I in faith allow someone else to save me from something from which I could not save myself. It is not an act of merit. Because the work is done by the one who is doing the recusing.

OSAS is an incredibly evil and wicked deception that has swept through the church spawned from the virus of Calvinism.

Please back away, OSAS is not evil. Conditional election is evil. The fact God withholds his salvation from anyone and will not even allow them the chance to have faith is evil. The fact that God has kept his truth from all people. And he must first make you alive (even though your still dead in sin) first is evil. The fact that you must continue to work hard or you could lose your salvation is evil.

I would encourage very serious prayer for someone who has allowed this deception into their life, as it can cause real harm.

What harm? I have believed in eternal security all my life? It is the basis of our faith. I would say if one does not believe in eternal security there is much more harm. Because they person is stuck trying to live up to a standard they can not live up to. Or lie to themselves that they are not really as bad as they really are.

The warnings of Scripture, the witness of Christians with better fruit than us falling away, the testimony of the Spirit to our hearts, and the twisted and convoluted false logic of Calvinism,

Your actually making my point for me,’
Your anger is against calvinism.

all instruct as to turn away from such a grave error misleading so many to hell. It is simply a false and twisted understanding of what grace means to insist it must eliminate our free will and remove our ability to choose to follow the Lord or walk away from him.

You can have free will and not be calvinist.

John said those who are born again and leave and now reject christ in unbelief were never saved.

They did not leave because they were calvinist and thought they had OSAS. They left because they never had faith to begin with.

God does not just hand out his gift paid in his own blood to anyone. He is not going to give it to someone who does not really have true saving faith, and he knows will walk away.

I do recommend the documentary on YouTube, even though I have some disagreements with it, it brings out some very important points.



Thanks for your answer. Peace and respect in Christ.

I hope we can come together as brothers and discuss things from a biblical perspective, not from an arminian/calvinist perspective.

But thank you for your polite answers. Even if we may have some disagreement

As for OSAS.

Some see it as calvinistic only

I see it as the promise of God. The moment a person is adopted as his son, Is saved by the blood is justified freely by the redemption in christ Jesus.

That pwerson is saved ( a completed action) they have Gods promise, they will never die, never perish, live forever. They have eternal life and they will be raised by him, And not only this. They have the seal of the spirit as a guarnteee until ressurection day.

Their salvation is based on God, his work and his promise.

Not on what we do or do not do

So in not so many words,

The moment a person is saved (once saved) they will remain saved (always saved) because it is not on them, it is on Christ. Who promise he would never leave nor forsake them

 

[Dizerner]

Please back away, OSAS is not evil.

I will not back away from attacking demonic doctrines, ever.

I have fought this deception all my life, and will continue to do it to the day I die.

If you do NOT want to hear the truth of Scripture from me, I recommend no longer interacting, because I will NOT compromise.

The Holy Spirit is CRYSTAL CLEAR this is a deception.

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity;
but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness.

Otherwise you also will be cut off.

(Rom. 11:22 NKJ)

 

[Kermos]

Strong's 4102 - pistis - Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity

From Dictionary.com: fidelity - faithfulness.

You can look it up.

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com); therefore, the exact concept is faith in Galatians 5:22-23. The Apostle Paul's list of Fruit of the Holy Spirit is exclusively nouns, even the exact Greek word πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) is a noun, yet your heart converts the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) into an adjective of πιστός (Strong's 4103 - pistos - Faithful, trustworthy, reliable, believing- BibleHub.com) for you to adulterate the Holy Scripture into Free-willian Philosophy.

The translation in Truth (John 14:6) is "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23).

Therefore, faith in Jesus whom the Father has sent is a Fruit of the Spirit, the work of God, without ever being your work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21), TibiasDad, for the King of Glory declares “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Free-willians idolize themselves for in the free-willian heart lies the deception that faith is the work of the free-willian's flesh, and "the works of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I will not back away from attacking demonic doctrines, ever.

Niether will I

I have fought this deception all my life, and will continue to do it to the day I die.

As will I

If you do NOT want to hear the truth of Scripture from me, I recommend no longer interacting, because I will NOT compromise.

I love hearing scripture. And I love discussing it.

The Holy Spirit is CRYSTAL CLEAR this is a deception.

Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity;
but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness.

Otherwise you also will be cut off.

(Rom. 11:22 NKJ)

See, I suggest you stop hating on calvinism and start to look at the word.

Romans 11 is about jew vs gentile.

The gentiles were boasting that God gave them the word. And took it away from israel

God said he CUT off Israel because of their unbelief (Although he did not mean everyone, because he makes sure it is know. There is still a remnant, the nation was cut off. But there are still many jews or people of israel being saved)

Paul is warning us, If we do not we will get cut off just as they did (not saying we will lose salvation, or that all gentiles will be lost. But the things of God which we found was taken from israel and given to the gentile church, would be taken away and given back to Israel.

If you just going to fight calvin, we will have no basis for which to discuss,

Let’s look at the word. Not arminian vs calvinism.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com); therefore, the exact concept is faith in Galatians 5:22-23. The Apostle Paul's list of Fruit of the Holy Spirit is exclusively nouns, even the exact Greek word πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) is a noun, yet your heart converts the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) into an adjective of πιστός (Strong's 4103 - pistos - Faithful, trustworthy, reliable, believing- BibleHub.com) for you to adulterate the Holy Scripture into Free-willian Philosophy.

The translation in Truth (John 14:6) is "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23).

Therefore, faith in Jesus whom the Father has sent is a Fruit of the Spirit, the work of God, without ever being your work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21), TibiasDad, for the King of Glory declares “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Free-willians idolize themselves for in the free-willian heart lies the deception that faith is the work of the free-willian's flesh, and "the works of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!

Once again

The fruit of the spirit is given to those who are given the spirit.

paul makes it clear in eph 1 that we are not given the spirit until after we hear the word of truth, and after we believe (repent)

So if you do not have the spirit. You will have no fruit of the spirit.

You are saved by grace through faith. Yes it is the work of God we believe, God has to work prety hard to break a persons pride so that they will freely chose him.

 

[Red Baker]

I write respond early tomorrow, the Lord willing ~ I have other duties to attend to today. A granddaughter is waiting to see me. I'm going to soon be a great father ~ with many more to follow I'm sure.

 

[Jim]

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com); therefore, the exact concept is faith in Galatians 5:22-23. The Apostle Paul's list of Fruit of the Holy Spirit is exclusively nouns, even the exact Greek word πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) is a noun, yet your heart converts the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) into an adjective of πιστός (Strong's 4103 - pistos - Faithful, trustworthy, reliable, believing- BibleHub.com) for you to adulterate the Holy Scripture into Free-willian Philosophy.

The translation in Truth (John 14:6) is "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23).

Therefore, faith in Jesus whom the Father has sent is a Fruit of the Spirit, the work of God, without ever being your work of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21), TibiasDad, for the King of Glory declares “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Free-willians idolize themselves for in the free-willian heart lies the deception that faith is the work of the free-willian's flesh, and "the works of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!

 

[Jim]

The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com); therefore, the exact concept is faith in Galatians 5:22-23. The Apostle Paul's list of Fruit of the Holy Spirit is exclusively nouns, even the exact Greek word πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) is a noun, yet your heart converts the noun πίστις (Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com) into an adjective of πιστός (Strong's 4103 - pistos - Faithful, trustworthy, reliable, believing- BibleHub.com) for you to adulterate the Holy Scripture into Free-willian Philosophy.

The translation in Truth (John 14:6) is "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23).

(Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com)

Fidelity, that is, faithfulness.

(ASV) Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

(NASB) Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

(NIV) Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

(NKJV) Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Free-willians idolize themselves for in the free-willian heart lies the deception that faith is the work of the free-willian's flesh, and "the works of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-21).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Utter nonsense!!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!

The Faith, not faith. The Faith is the Way, the Plan of God for Salvation, the religious process whereby God can save us.

 

[MTMattie]

Niether will I

As will I

I love hearing scripture. And I love discussing it.


See, I suggest you stop hating on calvinism and start to look at the word.

I suggest you stop supporting the one who wrote....

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals
You need to do an indepth study on the man. And I, as a former Calvinist, whose church this morning actually quoted John Calvin did so.
YOUR love God. You love Jesus right?
Then why would the god, who we have always been told is love and loves us bar anyone from access to salvation and sentence them to death?
You need to find the differences, if you can, from predestination and Calvinism. Though I am not sure you can.
The link that the above quote came from is https://www.theologian-theology.com/theologians/john-calvin-predestination/

Ill stop now because I want you to have time to just consider who you are supporting and why.

And if you want to think in terms of OSAS with Calvin in mind be certain to also think never saved, then comes death.

Romans 11 is about jew vs gentile.

The gentiles were boasting that God gave them the word. And took it away from israel

God said he CUT off Israel because of their unbelief (Although he did not mean everyone, because he makes sure it is know. There is still a remnant, the nation was cut off. But there are still many jews or people of israel being saved)

Paul is warning us, If we do not we will get cut off just as they did (not saying we will lose salvation, or that all gentiles will be lost. But the things of God which we found was taken from israel and given to the gentile church, would be taken away and given back to Israel.

If you just going to fight calvin, we will have no basis for which to discuss,

Let’s look at the word. Not arminian vs calvinism.

 

[Fellow Traveler]

Niether will I

As will I

I love hearing scripture. And I love discussing it.


See, I suggest you stop hating on calvinism and start to look at the word.

Romans 11 is about jew vs gentile.

The gentiles were boasting that God gave them the word. And took it away from israel

God said he CUT off Israel because of their unbelief (Although he did not mean everyone, because he makes sure it is know. There is still a remnant, the nation was cut off. But there are still many jews or people of israel being saved)

Paul is warning us, If we do not we will get cut off just as they did (not saying we will lose salvation, or that all gentiles will be lost. But the things of God which we found was taken from israel and given to the gentile church, would be taken away and given back to Israel.

If you just going to fight calvin, we will have no basis for which to discuss,

Let’s look at the word. Not arminian vs calvinism.

In Romans11:21 Paul warned the Gentile Christians that the only reason they had a place in the family of God was because of their faith in Christ. Without that faith, God was just as likely to "prune" them from His tree as He did to the Jewish people who refused to believe in Jesus. Their status was absolutely not on the basis of their own good works or anything other than the grace of God.

Then in Romans 11:22 Paul wants to make sure his readers don't miss these two pillars of God's nature. He is simultaneously kind and uncompromising, based only on a person's faith in Christ. God is holy, so He must be firm toward those who have fallen by their lack of faith in Christ. God is kind to the Gentile Christians because of their faith in Christ. They must continue in God's kindness by continuing to trust in Christ. Without faith in Christ, God will cut them off, as well.

Context is crucial in any passage, but this verse is easy for us to misunderstand when we read it by itself. The issue at hand is not being "cut off" from eternal salvation, as the rest of the verses in chapter 11 will show. God had "cut off" some of Israel for their rejection of Him, and "grafting in" Gentiles. Paul is still referring to "the Gentiles" as a group, as much as to Israel as a nation. If "the Gentiles" act as coldly and stubbornly towards God as Israel had, God is more than willing and able to deem them "cut off" and suffer as a result. The context here is not about eternity, but the relationship and communion with God. You can see the same teaching in Hebrews chapters 3 and 4.

 

[brightfame52]

(Strong's 4102 - pistis - faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity - BibleHub.com)

Fidelity, that is, faithfulness.

(ASV) Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

(NASB) Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

(NIV) Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law

(NKJV) Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Utter nonsense!!

The Faith, not faith. The Faith is the Way, the Plan of God for Salvation, the religious process whereby God can save us.

So then you dont believe faith in salvation is the fruit of the Spirit ?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I suggest you stop supporting the one who wrote....

I do not support this person.. why would you make this accusation?

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals

Again, I reject this notion. Why would you say I support it?

I believe Jesus died for the world. Whoever recieved his grace gift in faith will be saved, whoever rejects his free gift offered to them in unbelief will nto be saved

You need to do an indepth study on the man. And I, as a former Calvinist, whose church this morning actually quoted John Calvin did so.
YOUR love God. You love Jesus right?
Then why would the god, who we have always been told is love and loves us bar anyone from access to salvation and sentence them to death?

Are you talking to me?

You need to find the differences, if you can, from predestination and Calvinism. Though I am not sure you can.
The link that the above quote came from is https://www.theologian-theology.com/theologians/john-calvin-predestination/

Ill stop now because I want you to have time to just consider who you are supporting and why.

I support the word of God

Not calvin, Not Arminius, Not Roman Catholicism. Not any man

And if you want to think in terms of OSAS with Calvin in mind be certain to also think never saved, then comes death.

I literally do not understand what you mean here. Can you explain?

I do not relate OSAS with calvinism. I reject all 5 points of calvinism.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

In Romans11:21 Paul warned the Gentile Christians that the only reason they had a place in the family of God was because of their faith in Christ. Without that faith, God was just as likely to "prune" them from His tree as He did to the Jewish people who refused to believe in Jesus. Their status was absolutely not on the basis of their own good works or anything other than the grace of God.

Actually, he said they were grafted in as the others were cut off.

Salvation has always been by faith. Even on the OT. (Think ninevah)

The one thing to remember about romans 11. Unlike romans 9, is in romans 11. Jewish believers are seperated or divided from saved gentiles (Jewish believers are called they, gentile believers are called you)

While Jews are also seperated (blinded, vs not blinded)

We also have jews being natural. While gentiles are unnatural

We also have in the opening vers. is God done wiht Israel (the context of the whole chapter)

Then in Romans 11:22 Paul wants to make sure his readers don't miss these two pillars of God's nature. He is simultaneously kind and uncompromising, based only on a person's faith in Christ. God is holy, so He must be firm toward those who have fallen by their lack of faith in Christ. God is kind to the Gentile Christians because of their faith in Christ. They must continue in God's kindness by continuing to trust in Christ. Without faith in Christ, God will cut them off, as well.

As well.. This is again separating the OT Israel. From the NT gentile church.

(Us vs them)

Context is crucial in any passage, but this verse is easy for us to misunderstand when we read it by itself. The issue at hand is not being "cut off" from eternal salvation, as the rest of the verses in chapter 11 will show. God had "cut off" some of Israel for their rejection of Him, and "grafting in" Gentiles. Paul is still referring to "the Gentiles" as a group, as much as to Israel as a nation. If "the Gentiles" act as coldly and stubbornly towards God as Israel had, God is more than willing and able to deem them "cut off" and suffer as a result. The context here is not about eternity, but the relationship and communion with God. You can see the same teaching in Hebrews chapters 3 and 4.

He is not talking about being cut off from eternal salvation.

Your right context is at issue

Salvation was at issue in chapter 9

Gods promise to the nation of Israel is in context in romans 11.

 

[Dizerner]

Romans 11 is about jew vs gentile.

Whole nations were NEVER cut off or grafted in. EVER. Nations are but the people that make them up.

This entire passage is both in the context of individual salvation and also addressing individual volition.

The TREE represents the spiritual ethnicity in Christ. The BRANCHES represent the individuals. Now look:

And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, (Rom. 11:17 NKJ)

The wild olive tree here is the kingdom of the devil.

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. (Rom. 11:21 NKJ)

Paul is not warning an ENTIRE ETHNICITY they will be cut off by some CORPORATE FAITH (a thing which does not logically exist).

He is warning INDIVIDUAL BRANCHES that were GRAFTED IN that they too can be INDIVIDUALLY CUT OFF (not trees).

Notice that God is able to graft the natural BRANCHES back in to the natural TREE, completely distinguishing them from each other:

how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Rom. 11:24 NKJ)


It is this kind of dishonest and perverse twisting into illogical pretzels that I see marks the Free Grace / OSAS camp, and it's disgusting.

Yes, they pour out reams and reams of dishonest loopholes and endless verbosity to find any means necessary around the warning.

I have literally heard more than one say, "Well, when we approach the text we ALREADY KNOW that it CANNOT be against OSAS."

That is the height of self-deception, the pinnacle of cognitive dissonance.

I find people love to correct other false doctrines but never humble themselves to admit their own, and this waters down the witness.


I will not abide it!

God never has, and never will affirm Satan's greatest lie to the Church, that nothing you can do will lose your salvation.

How demons love that one.

 

[Dizerner]

God had "cut off" some of Israel for their rejection of Him, and "grafting in" Gentiles. Paul is still referring to "the Gentiles" as a group, as much as to Israel as a nation.

Notice your words SOME of Israel. SOME. That logically and absolutely PRECLUDES dealing with entire peoples as ONE ENTITY.

No, the branches are INDIVIDUALS, who stand and fall by INDIVIDUAL FAITH.

God never cuts off ALL GENTILES or cuts off ALL ISRAEL.

Ever!

False teaching.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Whole nations were NEVER cut off or grafted in. EVER.

God said that israel was cut off.

So…

Nations are but the people that make them up.

yes, But God called a special nation apart from the rest and made them his own for a special purpose (not salvation)

This entire passage is both in the context of individual salvation and also addressing individual volition.

No it is not

it is about the nation of Israel.

Has God cast away his people (Israel). That is the context.

The TREE represents the spiritual ethnicity in Christ. The BRANCHES represent the individuals. Now look:

And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, (Rom. 11:17 NKJ)

The wild olive tree here is the kingdom of the devil.

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. (Rom. 11:21 NKJ)

Paul is not warning an ENTIRE ETHNICITY they will be cut off by some CORPORATE FAITH (a thing which does not logically exist).

He is warning INDIVIDUAL BRANCHES that were GRAFTED IN that they too can be INDIVIDUALLY CUT OFF (not trees).

Notice that God is able to graft the natural BRANCHES back in to the natural TREE, completely distinguishing them from each other:

how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Rom. 11:24 NKJ)

lol.. Again, the context is the nation of israel (the blind and the not blind) and the saved gentiles (the saved gentiles)

God is separating the jew and gentile. Remember in Roman’s 9, he says there is no separation. Now there is.. so something else is being spoke of here.

It is this kind of dishonest and perverse twisting into illogical pretzels that I see marks the Free Grace / OSAS camp, and it's disgusting.

Grace is not free, it was paid for by the god of heaven hanging on a cross

But I can see you are no different than a calvinist. If we do not believe like you. Then demon them, attack them, do whatever you can to appose them..

My first experience with an arminian is not a pleasant one.

Yes, they pour out reams and reams of dishonest loopholes and endless verbosity to find any means necessary around the warning.

I have literally heard more than one say, "Well, when we approach the text we ALREADY KNOW that it CANNOT be against OSAS."

That is the height of self-deception, the pinnacle of cognitive dissonance.

I find people love to correct other false doctrines but never humble themselves to admit their own, and this waters down the witness.

Dude, I am not talking about OSAS or nosas. I am talking about romans 11. And Pauls question “is God done wiht the nation of Israel” like sadly far to many churches believe he is.

This has nothing to do with OSAS.

And here you are getting angry and doing exactly what i spoke of earlier saying when we get into a calvinist arminian debate, we lose all semblance of discussion and even humility because it becomes a “me vs you” argument.

I will not abide it!

I will not abide into being falsly accused. Or any faith that calls the grace of God into question.

God never has, and never will affirm Satan's greatest lie to the Church, that nothing you can do will lose your salvation.

Nothing you can do will earn your salvation. Thats why you are saved by grace.

If you can not earn your salvation, then you can not unearn your salvation. Because you were never qualified to earn your salvation to begin with.

Satans greates lie, and founded in the very begining with cain and abel. Is human good. That I can be good enough to earn salvation. Or I must pay my own sin debt to earn salvation.

I could care less if you ahe calvin or not. I reject it myself.

But of you want to talk to me. Talk to me on my own ground. Not in attacking something I am not

How demons love that one.

Demons love the fact that sad paul said, we have fools. Who believe they come to god in the spirit (grace through faith) and must perfect it in the flesh (works)

It has been the false religion of all mankind since adam, and continues today.

Yet people stil fall for it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Notice your words SOME of Israel. SOME. That logically and absolutely PRECLUDES dealing with entire peoples as ONE ENTITY.

No, the branches are INDIVIDUALS, who stand and fall by INDIVIDUAL FAITH.

God never cuts off ALL GENTILES or cuts off ALL ISRAEL.

Ever!

False teaching.

lol Israel in romans 11 equals the natural branches grafted in - which paul calls the rmenant
And the unbelievers, which paul calls the blinded.

Notice. No gentiles are included in this thinking

Also notice. Paul says there will come a time, when this nation of israel (which included the remnant and the blinded) will all repent and come to christ. And he tells us when this time will be. When the time of the gentile is complete.

For this reason. He tells the gentile not to boast. Yet here we see whole groups of churching boasting.

 

[Anja]

May as well throw adoption into the discussion. Because the Holy Spirit directed the Paul to use the term adoption to describe the process by which God establishes a relationship with a sinner who trusts Christ as the Savior:

For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
Romans 8:15–16

That makes me think of John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Since believers have passed from death to life and have eternal life how would we undo that?

As a believer, you will never be judged for your sins. That is a settled issue. It is so settled in the mind of God that at the moment of your salvation, knowing full well all the sins you were yet to commit, God adopted you into His family.

God knew all our shortcomings. He knew our inconsistencies. He knew all about us. But He wanted us just the same. He wanted us enough to sacrifice His Son.

Why would He ever undo that? Let me put it another way. Can we pledge unconditional loyalty to a God who promises only conditional loyalty in return? Isn’t it unrealistic to think that we could ever grow comfortable thinking of God as our Dad our "Abba Father" when we know that if we drift away or fall into sin, the relationship will be severed?

And why would God choose before the foundation of the world to adopt someone He knew He would eventually have to unadopt?

Those of us who believe they can lose their positions as children of God are setting themselves up for a serious case of spiritual insecurity. How deep can my relationship with God really go when He cannot or will not pledge to me His unconditional love and acceptance? But that is not the case as John 3:16 tells us.

I like what Jesus said.

12. “If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them wanders away, what will he do? Won’t he leave the ninety-nine others on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13. And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he will rejoice over it more than over the ninety-nine that didn’t wander away! 14. In the same way, it is not my heavenly Father’s will that even one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:12-14

 

[Dizerner]

These above are not arguments, they are half-hearted fallacies thrown against the wall like spaghetti.

We do not argue FROM the consequences of something, like "Hell is horrific! Nobody wants hell to exist! God wouldn't make something terrible!"

This is what Annihilationists and Universalists will turn to.

We do not argue FROM what we want to be true. "Well, I really don't like the idea I have responsibility for my salvation and could be lost!" Therefore it simply cannot be true!

This is arguments Calvinists use, in their distaste for God creating someone who freely ends up lost.

We do not argue from demanding God have the same standard we do. "Well, I wouldn't demand everyone worship me, so why should God do that? I wouldn't kill my son to be able to forgive my other children, so why would God? I wouldn't demand my children accept me before I allow them into the family, so why would God?"

That is arguments that atheists use in their self-exaltation.


To even argue like this—at all—already shows severe deception and should ring huge alarm bells off in the conscience of a child of God.

 

[Dibromo]

What saves a person from going to hell. Believe in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

What, then, sends a person to hell? Disbelieve. Not a list of do's and don'ts.

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18

Look at that verse and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual “believe in” Him.

Look again. What is true of someone who has already been judged? Did he commit an unpardonable sin of some sort? No! He is judged because he has “not believed in” the Son of God.