It clearly does not appear in any verse he quotedan
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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civic
Well-known member
This in verse 45 is the condition/ qualifier - Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me
And before John 6:44 is
John 5:46–47 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
In any John 6:45 explains John 6:44 and John 6:45 is explained here
Isaiah 54:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; And great shall be the peace of thy children.
Where the true children of the righteous shall be taught by God
Not a single word there about unconditional election
If you are going to preach it you need to supply a bibnle verse which actually teachers it
DavidTree
Well-known member
even to suggest such is a error - HOWEVER - you are CLOSE to the TRUTH of 'WHEN'
In 1 Corinthians 1:10 AGAIN demonstrates BEFORE and AFTER in One Sentence
Here my Brother, take a LOOK-n-SEE = 1 Corinthians 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God,(comma)
***Notice the comma***
it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
Comma is used in one sentence of the same subject which is dependent on the Control Statement that Governs the subject matter contained/communicated in the sentence , it is to denote (A) from (B) where A + B = C
You cannot say B + A = C for that would be invalid when B is subordinate to A even though the sum total is C
EXAMPLE:
A - God is the Head of Christ
B - Christ is the Head of man
C - Man is the head of the woman
A + B = C
B + A = C is INCORRECT
Return to GENESIS for the SOLID FOUNDATION of CHRIST
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civic
Well-known member
The context tell us in John 6. We don't need to look elsewhere. We derive the meaning from the immediate context in John.
It is a sound principle of hermeneutics to allow the Bible to interpret itself. The context of a passage helps us to understand the passage itself. The following verse says, “It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me” (Jn. 6:45). How then are men drawn by the Father? Are men drawn by a constitutional change or through an irresistible force? No. Men are drawn by moral means. Coming to Christ is a choice of the will. Therefore, the means used to bring about this choice are means which respect and regard the will of man. Since coming to Christ is a choice of the will, God brings men to Christ by influencing their will. God teaches men and this is what influences them to come to Jesus. The drawing of God is through spiritual revelation. The Father draws men to His Son by granting us a revelation of His Son and what He has done for us on the cross.
compare
Romans 10:8–15 (KJV 1900) — 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Given revelation men can come that is believe on Christ
DavidTree
Well-known member
Post 4,125
The IMMEDIATE context/control subject is 'the FATHER' = no one comes to Me UNLESS the FATHER draws/calls them
CHRIST immediately subjects Himself to the FATHER who is the CONTROL SUBJECT of the sentence.
The CONTROL SUBJECT GOVERNS the intended meaning of the sentence itself.
A + B = C is TRUTH
B + A = C is FALSE
civic
Well-known member
And who does the Father draw ?
only those who have listened and learned from the Father.
hope this helps !!!
DavidTree
Well-known member
You just labeled yourself as a STUBBORN mule (i am being nice) since you REPEATEDLY DENY the words of CHRIST in the verse BEFORE v45
The CONTEXT of the passage BEGINS in John 6:42 which is the Governing Subject that Controls/Determines the Outcome.
41The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
What is the Control Subject in the context of verse 42???
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DavidTree
Well-known member
Still nothing there about unconditional election
Those who come - Are those who are drawn - are those who heard and learned from the father
You are begging the question assuming all who hear learn and the message is sent only to some preselect individuals
calls?
The gospel call is to go out to all
However Many are called few are chosen
Scriptural ways men may receive revelation sufficient for faith
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Convincing them Jesus was the Christ
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Nothing in the passage states God controls who will learn
God must provide revelation but he does not determine who will heed it
DavidTree
Well-known member
LOL x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
DavidTree
Well-known member
Now you are advocating 'works salvation'
Ephesians 2:1-10
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Um you are assuming God's means of drawing is other than revelation and is instead some irresistible force causing men to men'
That idea is not supported by John's gospel
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
DavidTree
Well-known member
What is the Control Subject in the context of verse 42???
