An Article on free will

[Kermos]

@TomL @civic @Rockson @synergy

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

 

[TomL]

@TomL @civic @Rockson @synergy

No Word of God you cite states man was imparted a free-will to choose toward God, but here is the Word of God which clearly states man does not choose God to any degree!

The gracious Benefactor of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

You are simply repeating your same old talking points which ignore rebuttal

For example

Kermos said:



The people failed to understand, just like you, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).


There you go with your unsupported assumptions

The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

In context its meaning is that which God requires of man

Repeating the same failed claims changes nothing

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus tells them there is something they must do to obtain the food which last for eternal life

in context it is to believe on him

John 6:35–36 (NASB 2020) — 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe.

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

Again this establishes the meaning of the phrase the work of God as that which is required by God

John 6:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus tells them they must believe

John 6:30 (NASB 2020) — 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

The jew understand him to be telling them they must believe.

An understanding confirmed by Christ as per verse 35 above

They must believe

An understanding confirmed by scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

even Calvinist commentator agree with this obvious reading


John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)



This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.



Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.

What precisely is it that God waits for us to do, and will be satisfied with our doing? To which Jesus, always ready to meet the sincere inquirer, gives the explicit answer (ver. 29) τοῦτό ἐστι … ἐκεῖνος. If God has sent a messenger it is because there is need of such interposition, and the first duty must be to listen believingly to this messenger.

Marcus Dods, The Gospel of St. John (New York: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 752.

The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.

Even the notes to the Geneva bible refute you


Verse 29
5. Men torment themselves in vain when they try to please God without faith.
g. That is, this is the work that God requires, that you believe in me, and therefore he calls them back to faith.


Geneva Bible Notes (1599). (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), Jn 6:28–29.

Mindlessly repeating your view does not negate what the scripture clearly shows

and

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

And the bible does tell men to choose who they will serve

Joshua 24:15–25 (KJV 1900) — 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God. 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

 

[Kermos]

You are simply repeating your same old talking points which ignore rebuttal

For example

Kermos said:



The people failed to understand, just like you, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).


There you go with your unsupported assumptions

The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

In context its meaning is that which God requires of man

Repeating the same failed claims changes nothing

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus tells them there is something they must do to obtain the food which last for eternal life

in context it is to believe on him

John 6:35–36 (NASB 2020) — 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe.

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

Again this establishes the meaning of the phrase the work of God as that which is required by God

John 6:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus tells them they must believe

John 6:30 (NASB 2020) — 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

The jew understand him to be telling them they must believe.

An understanding confirmed by Christ as per verse 35 above

They must believe

An understanding confirmed by scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

even Calvinist commentator agree with this obvious reading


John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)



This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.



Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.

What precisely is it that God waits for us to do, and will be satisfied with our doing? To which Jesus, always ready to meet the sincere inquirer, gives the explicit answer (ver. 29) τοῦτό ἐστι … ἐκεῖνος. If God has sent a messenger it is because there is need of such interposition, and the first duty must be to listen believingly to this messenger.

Marcus Dods, The Gospel of St. John (New York: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 752.

The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.

Even the notes to the Geneva bible refute you


Verse 29
5. Men torment themselves in vain when they try to please God without faith.
g. That is, this is the work that God requires, that you believe in me, and therefore he calls them back to faith.


Geneva Bible Notes (1599). (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), Jn 6:28–29.

Mindlessly repeating your view does not negate what the scripture clearly shows

and

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

John 13:18 (UASV) — 18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

And the bible does tell men to choose who they will serve

Joshua 24:15–25 (KJV 1900) — 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. 16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; 17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed: 18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God. 19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

Your "There you go with your unsupported assumptions" is anti-truth because the people asked/injected the work of man into the wrong place respecting believing in Jesus when they inquired "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God" (John 6:28), and Christ rightly removed the work of man from anyplace respecting believing in Jesus when He responded "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Here is the result of your heart's treasure "The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28 John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” In context its meaning is that which God requires of man In context its meaning is that which God requires of man" - your self-willed free-willian philosophical word is on the left hand wrong side contrasting against the Holy Word of God on the right hand Righteous side:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (TomL 6:29)		Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29)

And so go your adulterations of the Holy Word of God again and again and again.

We Christians sing Christ's Sovereignty of God song that God is so very Holy that we cannot approach this Loving King Jesus without being summoned and chosen by His Holiness; in contrast, the daringly self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) Free-willian Philosophers sing the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) sour song about man choosing His Holiness:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
I chose Jesus, but Jesus didn't choose me (self-willed man's sayings 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
I chose to practice the Truth coming to the Light so that my works may be manifested as having been wrought in me (self-willed man's sayings 3:21)		he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise myself, that I have revealed these things to myself for I am the wise and intelligent One who causes myself to repent (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)

We Christians sing the sweet song of the power of God to the glory of God! The Word of God is beautiful - to God be all honor and glory and power and dominion forever and ever! Praise be to the Christ of us Christians.

You free-willians sing the sour song of the sovereignty of man to the glory of man!

Christ says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63) as well as "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE CHRIST FOREVER!!!

 

[TomL]

Your "There you go with your unsupported assumptions" is anti-truth because the people asked/injected the work of man into the wrong place respecting believing in Jesus when they inquired "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God" (John 6:28), and Christ rightly removed the work of man from anyplace respecting believing in Jesus when He responded "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Here is the result of your heart's treasure "The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28 John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” In context its meaning is that which God requires of man In context its meaning is that which God requires of man" - your self-willed free-willian philosophical word is on the left hand wrong side contrasting against the Holy Word of God on the right hand Righteous side:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (TomL 6:29)		Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29)

And so go your adulterations of the Holy Word of God again and again and again.

We Christians sing Christ's Sovereignty of God song that God is so very Holy that we cannot approach this Loving King Jesus without being summoned and chosen by His Holiness; in contrast, the daringly self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) Free-willian Philosophers sing the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) sour song about man choosing His Holiness:

The traditions of men		The Word of God
I chose Jesus, but Jesus didn't choose me (self-willed man's sayings 15:16)		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16)
I chose Jesus so now Jesus must obey me to make me out of the world (self-willed man's sayings 15:19)		I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19)
This is not the work of God but this is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (The Book of Free-willians 6:29)		This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)
I chose to practice the Truth coming to the Light so that my works may be manifested as having been wrought in me (self-willed man's sayings 3:21)		he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21)
Truly, truly, I say to you, before one is born again he can see the Kingdom of God[ (The Book of Free-willians 3:3)		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3)
I praise myself, that I have revealed these things to myself for I am the wise and intelligent One who causes myself to repent (self-willed man's sayings 11:25)		I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25)
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even according to your fleshly love, that you also love one another (The Book of Free-willians 13:34)		A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34)

We Christians sing the sweet song of the power of God to the glory of God! The Word of God is beautiful - to God be all honor and glory and power and dominion forever and ever! Praise be to the Christ of us Christians.

You free-willians sing the sour song of the sovereignty of man to the glory of man!

Christ says "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life" (John 6:63) as well as "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE CHRIST FOREVER!!!

Still the same old repeat screed which does not respond to objections

Loading…

berean-apologetics.community.forum

 

[Kermos]

Jesus taught provisional atonement.

John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.


John 3:14-15
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him

Numbers 21:8-9
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Multiple Choice Question below :

Numbers 21:9: So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on the flag pole; and it came about, that if a serpent bit _________, and he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

1. Everyone
2. An Elect Person
3. A Lucky Lottery Winner

Biblical Answer !

John Chapter 3:14-15
And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

hope this helps !!!

Atonement for the "world" per King Jesus of the Kingdom of God​

The first word of John 3:16 is a conjunction that inextricably ties John 3:14-15 to John 3:16, and here are the Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).
​

Lord Jesus brings in history by way of mentioning "the serpent in the wilderness" John 3:14), so here is the contextually linked passage about history:

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9).
​

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14) and the results of the "bronze serpent" that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons which includes persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16) with the first "population of bitten look to live" and there was the second "population of everyone else".

In the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

1. Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
2. Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16, note that the singular (not plural) Greek word pas [Strong's 3956] translates accurately as "every one" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous connotation of "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
3. Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
4. Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the word "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE KING JESUS!!!

 

[TomL]

​

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE KING JESUS!!!

Sorry that is totally false as per

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Where it is clear, the world includes any who believe not

verse 47 being parallel to

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[Kermos]

Still the same old repeat screed which does not respond to objections

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berean-apologetics.community.forum

Now, you and @civic (based on your "agreement" icon to TomL's pos) label the positively precious, wonderful, and saving Word of God with your negatively charged "screed".

That compounds your way of you calling the Way (John 14:6) your highly disrespectfully dishonoring "Utter nonsense" and "repeat garbage".

Give it repeating the same refuted arguments and false witness does not help you

its not the word of God but your twisting of it that is garbage

as I noted

Its not the word but your interpretation and the repeated refuted nonsense you jeep posting

Same old repeat garbage

Christ chose his disciples They were God's and God gave them to him

Nowhere is there any mention of unconditionality

Your handling of the word receive was refuted by first

the industry standard lexicon BAGD

e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b;

Second it was refuted by the greek grammar where receive is in the active voice indicating it was something theyn did not something that happened to them as you ignorant of greek grammar tried to claim


Sorry you are just repeating false claims. There is nothing in the passage stating men have no ability to receive Christ

We know for a fact some did receive him

John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

further John had just stated'

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

examine how john uses the term receive here

John 5:43–47 (KJV 1900) — 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

that should dispel your claim about Christ entering man although grammar already did


Yes active not passive

it indicated something they actively did

There was no passive reception as you falsely believe



Sorry no it does not

It does state those who received him were given the right to be children of God

it is regeneration which makes one a child of God

and we are all children of God by faith

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


in causing one to be born again not in choosing to receive christ

Again all are made children of God (born again) through faith

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



Repeating already addressed claim does not make them any stronger

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)

This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.


Not even these noted Calvinist believe your claim

or you could have just believed scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Paul did not believe you either

You have failed to address rebuttal and simply repeat yourself over and over

You refuted nothing according to the Word of God. You continue practicing lawlessness (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:26-27) because you apply your concept of "garbage" to the Word of God, and the below proves it! You show no sign of repentance. See the blue text that shows how you add to the Word of God. It's really quite straightforward, you add to the Word of God in order to achieve your free-willian philosophy; in contrast, God has me proclaiming that the Word of God means precisely what He says.

No Christian calls the Word of God "repeat garbage", and we find you calling the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) that God had me proclaim to you "repeat garbage" compounding your "Utter nonsense" about this wonderful Word of God!!!

The Word of God says "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15), and you call the Word of God "repeat garbage".

God had me quote along with much more Word of God such as “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) which comes after your "John 3:3-8 continue reading" then quoting John 3:9–15, and you responded "repeat garbage" about this wonderful Word of God!!!

Regarding the "believeth" recorded in John 3:15, the Christ of us Christians lovingly declares “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) in response to the people asked Jesus “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).

Lord Jesus eliminates “the works of man” (John 6:28) entirely from the equation with His Powerful response “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and the Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief unto salvation inside of man with absolutely no input by man:

by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10).
​

You call "repeat garbage" this Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), but you didn't stop there.

You wrote "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" (you made it your heart's treasure by quoting it) about John 6:29, so your thoughts produce "This is the work of man that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of TomL) which is NOT keeping “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Not only do you call "repeat garbage" this Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), bur your heart proceeds to add to the Word of God producing the word of TomL instead "This is the work of man that you believe in Him whom He has sent"

You propounded "As for your verses First you simply repeat Christ choice of his disciples but nothing states Christ chose them unconditionally for salvation" respecting John 15:16-19, and again I perceive that you switched to use "disciples" as an in-situ replacement for "apostles", yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

You answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

No Scripture you quoted states man can choose to believe in God, so you conjure up the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Your "repeat garbage" about the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) indicates precisely what you believe or don't believe, TomL.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE TRUE HOLY GOD, LORD JESUS!!!

 

[TomL]

Now, you and @civic (based on your "agreement" icon to TomL's pos) label the positively precious, wonderful, and saving Word of God with your negatively charged "screed".

That compounds your way of you calling the Way (John 14:6) your highly disrespectfully dishonoring "Utter nonsense" and "repeat garbage".



You refuted nothing according to the Word of God. You continue practicing lawlessness (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:26-27) because you apply your concept of "garbage" to the Word of God, and the below proves it! You show no sign of repentance. See the blue text that shows how you add to the Word of God. It's really quite straightforward, you add to the Word of God in order to achieve your free-willian philosophy; in contrast, God has me proclaiming that the Word of God means precisely what He says.

No Christian calls the Word of God "repeat garbage", and we find you calling the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) that God had me proclaim to you "repeat garbage" compounding your "Utter nonsense" about this wonderful Word of God!!!

The Word of God says "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15), and you call the Word of God "repeat garbage".

God had me quote along with much more Word of God such as “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21) which comes after your "John 3:3-8 continue reading" then quoting John 3:9–15, and you responded "repeat garbage" about this wonderful Word of God!!!

Regarding the "believeth" recorded in John 3:15, the Christ of us Christians lovingly declares “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) in response to the people asked Jesus “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).

Lord Jesus eliminates “the works of man” (John 6:28) entirely from the equation with His Powerful response “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and the Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief unto salvation inside of man with absolutely no input by man:

​

by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10).​

​

You call "repeat garbage" this Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), but you didn't stop there.

You wrote "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" (you made it your heart's treasure by quoting it) about John 6:29, so your thoughts produce "This is the work of man that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of TomL) which is NOT keeping “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Not only do you call "repeat garbage" this Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), bur your heart proceeds to add to the Word of God producing the word of TomL instead "This is the work of man that you believe in Him whom He has sent"

You propounded "As for your verses First you simply repeat Christ choice of his disciples but nothing states Christ chose them unconditionally for salvation" respecting John 15:16-19, and again I perceive that you switched to use "disciples" as an in-situ replacement for "apostles", yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

You answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).​

​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles" (the confused word of TomL).

No Scripture you quoted states man can choose to believe in God, so you conjure up the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Your "repeat garbage" about the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) indicates precisely what you believe or don't believe, TomL.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE TRUE HOLY GOD, LORD JESUS!!!

sorry you continue asserting your opinion while ignoring rebuttal

Still the same old repeat screed which does not respond to objections

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-99606

 

[Kermos]

Sorry that is totally false as per

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Where it is clear, the world includes any who believe not

verse 47 being parallel to

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Again, you jumped to John 12:47 which is a different dialog than John 3:1-21 without reasonably addressing the failures of your fraudulent free-willian philosophy, so let’s look at your thoughts in detail.

Let's revisit this.

To start with you ignored the logic

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.


That any unbeliever is part of the world Christ came to save

Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world

From this verse we see any unbeliever is part of the world Christ came to save

That in itself refutes your theology of limited atonement.

Where do you address this refutation of your theology?

God caused me to address your specific free-willian philosophical point by me quoting Christ, but you are one who does not receive Christ's sayings (John 12:48 - notice John 12:47 which you quoted is directly adjacent to John 12:48).

Your heart set the "world" equal to "all unbelievers everywhere in all time" when you wrote "Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world" along with your later paragraph of "Thus we see Christ died for all"; more specifically, your heart equivocates "world" into a thing of "all unbelievers who call in their own initiative speaking their self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me".

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (TomL 12:47)		If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.

See your heart has your "world" of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Then you ignore the fact that John repeats the same thought here

Your Free-willian Philosophy is a deep state of confusion because you wrongly attribute the Lord Jesus Christ's words recorded in both John 12:47 and John 3:17 to John instead of Jesus!

John 3:17 (NASB 2020) — 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

as he did

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

rather you rewrite the argument to suit yourself and appeal to the same tired argument you presented so many times while ignoring rebuttal

John 12:47 is not John 3:18, and John 3:18 is part of the John 3:16-18 passage, but John 12:47 is not part of the John 3:16-18 and there is no mention of anyone causing himself to believe in Him whom He has sent; therefore, John 12:47 is no proof text of your fraudulent free-willian philosophy.

The saving "believing" concept in John 3:16-18 is governed by “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

The only way for man truthfully to say that you believe in Him whom He has sent is because that you believe in Him whom He has sent is the work of God.

Then it seems you really have nom idea what the doctrine of limited atonement means when you say



No what is shown is you do not know what you are talking about

Then you absurdly state

ignoring John 12:47

John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

and the fact that Jesus does not judge any unbeliever because he did not come to judge the world

that obviously makes any unbeliever a part of the world he did not come to judge but to save

ignoring also the parallel statement

Since I previously told you that I believe in complete atonement (proof post #1,802), then your nonsensical "your doctrine of limited atonement is shown to be false" is foolishness.

According to your Free-willian Prophecy, the following represents dead in sin unbelievers:

• if Bob chooses to believe in Christ, then God must reward Bob with eternal life.
• if Alice chooses to believe not in Christ, then God must punish Alice with eternal damnation.
• The conclusion: the causative factor for a person obtaining eternal life is whether a person “chooses to believe in Christ”.

So man is the cause of eternal life because man goes to hell without man choosing to believe in Christ.

On to another dark consequence of your free-willian philosophy "Thus we see Christ died for all" is that your heart's treasure renders Christ's death an abject failure for every unbeliever who dies as an unbeliever because Christ's coverage of that unbeliever's sin failed to cover that unbeliever's sin (see the Alice example above).

Your belief in failure atonement results in Christ being a false prophet because Jesus fails to save all that he died to save.

John 3:17 (NASB 2020) — 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

thus ignoring the obvious faith the world is populated by both believers and unbelievers

and a host of lexicons



4. world(people) — all of the people of the world understood according to the place in which human beings live. Related Topics: People; World.
Jn 1:10 ὁ κόσμος
Jn 3:16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν
Jn 8:12 Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ φῶς τοῦ κόσμου·
Jn 17:6 οὓς ἔδωκάς μοι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου.
2 Pe 2:5 ἀρχαίου κόσμου οὐκ ἐφείσατο,
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις κ. ἀνθρώποις, 1 Co. 4:9 [W. 127 (121)]; particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first So in Sap. [e.g. 10:1]): Mt. 13:38; 18:7; Mk. 14:9; Jn. 1:10, 29, [36 L in br.]; 3:16 sq.; 6:33, 51; 8:26; 12:47

Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (New York: Harper & Brothers., 1889), 357.

of the human inhabitants of the world: Mt 5:14; 13:38, Mk 14:9, Jo 1:10; 4:42; 12:47,

G. Abbott-Smith, A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1922), 255.

(E) The world is the object of judgment and saving mercy (John 1:29; 3:16–19; 4:42; 6:33, 51; 8:12, 26; 9:5; 12:46, 47;

Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000).

Lets look at the term "world" in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17 of which you quoted first:

16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:17-18)
​

Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being as per Christ recorded in John 3:18 (directly adjacent to John 3:16-17 instead of John 12:47 that fails as a proof text for your free-willian philosophy as demonstrated above).

The dead in sin must be born of God in order to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3); furthermore, Lord Jesus Christ establishes the ordained order of salvation in John chapter 3 with John 3:3 preceding John 3:16 in the same dialog.

Your free-willian philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to have life in Christ.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE MIGHTY GOD!!!

 

[TomL]

Again, you jumped to John 12:47 which is a different dialog than John 3:1-21 without reasonably addressing the failures of your fraudulent free-willian philosophy, so let’s look at your thoughts in detail.

Hogwash

These are parallel statements

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

world clearly includes any unbeliever in John 12:47

John 3 passage would as well were you open to obvious truth

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Christ was given to the world, but only those in the world who believe are saved

Are you going to deny unbelievers exist in the world

and even if you were so inclined John 12:47 serves to refute your inclination.

Let's revisit this.



God caused me to address your specific free-willian philosophical point by me quoting Christ, but you are one who does not receive Christ's sayings (John 12:48 - notice John 12:47 which you quoted is directly adjacent to John 12:48).

Your heart set the "world" equal to "all unbelievers everywhere in all time" when you wrote "Christ does not judge any unbelievers because he came to save the world" along with your later paragraph of "Thus we see Christ died for all"; more specifically, your heart equivocates "world" into a thing of "all unbelievers who call in their own initiative speaking their self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me".

God did not cause you to do anything. Only your presuppositions and fealty to an assumed theology lead you to deny truth here

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

The reason Christ does not judge the unbeliever is he did not come to judge the world

That obviously puts the unbeliever in the world

The world Christ was given for

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

You fail to show any adulteration as you failed to address the obvious argument above

The word of TomL		The Word of God
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (TomL 12:47)		If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.

See your heart has your "world" of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Which is why you add to the passage what is not there and is not a current part of the debate

The issue here is the meaning of the term world and the extent of god's love for the world as well as his giving Christ for the world

Your Free-willian Philosophy is a deep state of confusion because you wrongly attribute the Lord Jesus Christ's words recorded in both John 12:47 and John 3:17 to John instead of Jesus!

Sorry that is deceptive as I have not argued free will based on john 12:47 and 3:17

Why the attempt to distort the issue I brought up

you had stated

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

That is the issue. It is disingenuous of you to attempt to change it.

Defend that issue or concede it

 

[civic]

Hogwash

These are parallel statements

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

world clearly includes any unbeliever in John 12:47

John 3 passage would as well were you open to obvious truth

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Christ was given to the world, but only those in the world who believe are saved

Are you going to deny unbelievers exist in the world

and even if you were so inclined John 12:47 serves to refute your inclination.







God did not cause you to do anything. Only your presuppositions and fealty to an assumed theology lead you to deny truth here

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

The reason Christ does not judge the unbeliever is he did not come to judge the world

That obviously puts the unbeliever in the world

The world Christ was given for








You fail to show any adulteration as you failed to address the obvious argument above






Which is why you add to the passage what is not there and is not a current part of the debate

The issue here is the meaning of the term world and the extent of god's love for the world as well as his giving Christ for the world




Sorry that is deceptive as I have not argued free will based on john 12:47 and 3:17

Why the attempt to distort the issue I brought up

you had stated



That is the issue. It is disingenuous of you to attempt to change it.

Defend that issue or concede it

I’ll concede it for him

 

[TomL]

I’ll concede it for him

He should

 

[Kermos]

Hogwash

These are parallel statements

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

world clearly includes any unbeliever in John 12:47

John 3 passage would as well were you open to obvious truth

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Christ was given to the world, but only those in the world who believe are saved

Are you going to deny unbelievers exist in the world

and even if you were so inclined John 12:47 serves to refute your inclination.







God did not cause you to do anything. Only your presuppositions and fealty to an assumed theology lead you to deny truth here

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

The reason Christ does not judge the unbeliever is he did not come to judge the world

That obviously puts the unbeliever in the world

The world Christ was given for








You fail to show any adulteration as you failed to address the obvious argument above






Which is why you add to the passage what is not there and is not a current part of the debate

The issue here is the meaning of the term world and the extent of god's love for the world as well as his giving Christ for the world




Sorry that is deceptive as I have not argued free will based on john 12:47 and 3:17

Why the attempt to distort the issue I brought up

you had stated



That is the issue. It is disingenuous of you to attempt to change it.

Defend that issue or concede it

"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).

There are two contexts in these 29 words issued by Jesus:

Clause		Context
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him		all unbelievers
for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world		current believers and future believers

We Christians hear Christ clearly convey that the world contextually includes exclusively current believers and future believers.

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (TomL 12:47)		If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.

See your heart has your world of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Let's look at the term world in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17:

16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:17-18)
​

Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being as per Christ recorded in John 3:18 (directly adjacent to John 3:16-17 instead of John 12:47 that fails as a proof text for your free-willian philosophy as demonstrated above).

The dead in sin must be born of God in order to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3); furthermore, Lord Jesus Christ establishes the ordained order of salvation in John chapter 3 with John 3:3 preceding John 3:16 in the same dialog.

Your free-willian philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to have life in Christ.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE MIGHTY GOD!!!

 

[civic]

"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).

There are two contexts in these 29 words issued by Jesus:

Clause		Context
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him		all unbelievers
for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world		current believers and future believers

We Christians hear Christ clearly convey that the world contextually includes exclusively current believers and future believers.

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (TomL 12:47)		If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.

See your heart has your world of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Let's look at the term world in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17:

​

16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

(John 3:17-18)​

​

Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being as per Christ recorded in John 3:18 (directly adjacent to John 3:16-17 instead of John 12:47 that fails as a proof text for your free-willian philosophy as demonstrated above).

The dead in sin must be born of God in order to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3); furthermore, Lord Jesus Christ establishes the ordained order of salvation in John chapter 3 with John 3:3 preceding John 3:16 in the same dialog.

Your free-willian philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to have life in Christ.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE MIGHTY GOD!!!

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7(yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5;λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

 

[civic]

Continued :

1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the worldand therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture and specifically in 1 John makes me a non calvinist then I'm here to official renounce my association with that group.

I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation. Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and I will seek, search truth until my dying day and never allow any systematic theology or bias to cloud my view of Scripture.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Kermos]

John 3 the context, Jesus teaching and His argument used with Nicodemus. Jesus main focus is on the Atonement. Jesus is dealing with the sin issue.

This is the cultural context in which this dialogue between a leading Jew and Jesus takes place. Jesus is correcting two fundamental misconceptions of the Jewish understanding of salvation. They will not inherit the Kingdom of God unconditionally. They must be changed. They must be reborn. This change does not take place corporately but individually, “No one [individual] can see” or “enter” the Kingdom of God without first being reborn. The Kingdom of God is not unconditionally guaranteed to them. They cannot enter the Kingdom until their sin has been dealt with, for the Kingdom of God is a holy Kingdom. There is need for real atonement before one can enter into the life of God’s Kingdom. Since sin brings death “you must be born again”. How does this happen? Nicodemus asks Jesus this same question in verse 9, “how can this be?”

Jesus quickly directs Nicodemus to the necessity of atonement. He says in verses 14 and 15, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” So how does one attain the new life necessary for seeing and entering the Kingdom of God? He must look to the lifted up Messiah and believe in him. While Calvinists lay great stress on the analogy of spiritual birth with physical birth, they virtually ignore the implications involved with the analogy of the bronze serpent that Jesus specifically used to answer Nicodemus’ question of how one becomes born again (vs. 9).

The Israelites in the desert were dying from the deadly venom of snake bites. The only way they could escape certain death was to look to the bronze serpent that God had provided for their healing. Those Israelites were dying until they fixed their gaze on the bronze snake. Jesus correlates this “looking” to the snake with “believing”. When someone believes in Christ the blood of atonement is applied, the curse of sin and death is broken, and new life begins. If the Calvinistic interpretation of John3:3, 6 is correct then Jesus chose a poor analogy to explain to Nicodemus how the new life begins. If their view is correct then we must also believe that the Israelites in the desert were not given life as a result of fixing their gaze on the bronze serpent, but were rather first given life so that they could then look to [or “see”] the serpent. In this view they looked to the serpent because they had already been cured of the venom’s deadly effects. They would not have looked to the serpent to secure life; they would have looked to the serpent because they had already been given life. I would venture to say that no Calvinist believes that the Israelites looked to the bronze serpent because they had already been cured and given life. Since this is the illustration that Christ chose to explain the nature of his atonement and the means by which we attain life, it is absurd to believe that Jesus was teaching that the new birth precedes faith in John 3:3, 6. Consider the parallels,

The Bronze Snake:

The Israelites had to look to the bronze serpent to escape the deadly effects of the venom and experience life, “Anyone who is bitten can look at [the serpent] and live…when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake they lived.” [Numbers 21:8, 9]

The Crucified Messiah:

Only those who look to the Messiah’s atonement by faith in His blood will escape the deadly effects of sin and experience new life, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [as a necessary atonement], that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” [Jn. 3:14-16]

Rather than allowing Jesus to explain His own teaching, the Calvinist wants to “explain” what Jesus meant before He does. If we want to understand what Jesus meant by His comments in John 3:3, 6, we only need to keep reading. If we can resist the temptation to read our theology into his comments we will soon discover that one is born again by believing in Christ and thereby appropriating the benefits of His atonement. Only after the blood of the “lifted up” Messiah is applied through faith can one begin to experience the eternal life that begins at the new birth.

When Jesus said that no one can “see” or “enter” the Kingdom of God unless that person was born again, He was teaching the necessity of the application of His atoning work. Only when sin is dealt with in the life of the individual can that person experience life and move into the sphere of God’s holy Kingdom. Jesus made it clear that the soul cleansing benefits of His atoning work are given only to those who “believe” in Him.

Nicodemus may have walked away confused and frustrated but Jesus perfectly explained to him why the Jewish view of salvation was inadequate. The only way for anyone, Jew or Gentile, to attain the life of the Messianic Kingdom is for them to personally put their faith in the atoning work of the Messiah. While John 3:3 and 6, when read in the context of the entire chapter, lends further weight to the Arminian view, it fails as a proof text for the Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration preceding faith. https://berean-apologetics.communit...w-birth-as-taught-by-jesus-to-nicodemus.1824/

hope this helps !!!

You failed to maintain the context, here, @civic, and you repeatedly express failure to understand context of Lord Jesus Christ's sayings recorded in John chapter 3. Your "hope this helps" about your post is true in that your post shows your failure in understanding context, again.

@synergy wrote "Are you saying that verse does not apply to Nicodemus? Really? What makes Nicodemus a class above all other men? Give me a break." to @Red Baker who had written:

Nicodemus' child like confession proved that he was already born of the Spirit of God, or, else he would had been just like the other leaders of the Pharisees who said that jesus did what he did under the power of the prince of the devils
​

in post #2,814 regarding the Lord’s saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

@synergy repeatedly refuses to apologize for bearing false witness against Red Baker! It appears that synergy failed back to just liking your posts instead of apologizing.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GOD WHO REVEALS THE TRUTH TO BABES!!!

 

[synergy]

You failed to maintain the context, here, @civic, and you repeatedly express failure to understand context of Lord Jesus Christ's sayings recorded in John chapter 3. Your "hope this helps" about your post is true in that your post shows your failure in understanding context, again.

@synergy wrote "Are you saying that verse does not apply to Nicodemus? Really? What makes Nicodemus a class above all other men? Give me a break." to @Red Baker who had written:

​

Nicodemus' child like confession proved that he was already born of the Spirit of God, or, else he would had been just like the other leaders of the Pharisees who said that jesus did what he did under the power of the prince of the devils​

This is a total misrepresentation of what I said. That is NOT the paragraph I was referring to. It was the previous paragraph that I was talking about. You can't even get your facts straight.

in post #2,814 regarding the Lord’s saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

@synergy repeatedly refuses to apologize for bearing false witness against Red Baker! It appears that synergy failed back to just liking your posts instead of apologizing.

You are also displaying poor grammar skills and I have to apologize for that? Explain that to me.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

My statement was solely about RB's grammar skills, not about God. If you equate RB's grammar skills with God then you're further gone than what I previously imagined.

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE GOD WHO REVEALS THE TRUTH TO BABES!!!

This is the Biblical truth that you are running as fast as you can from:

At what point does one begin to "see the Kingdom of God"? John 3:3 clearly says at the point when one is "born again".

(John 3:3) Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

By definition, when one is "born again" he becomes a "child of God" so the two states are synonymous.

John 1:12 clearly states that one becomes a child of God when he receives Christ and believes on His name.

(John 1:12) But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,

Conclusion: Belief in Christ precedes being born again. Calvinism comes crashing down before your very eyes in a big ball of fire.

 

[TomL]

"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).

There are two contexts in these 29 words issued by Jesus:

Clause	Context
If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him	all unbelievers
for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world	current believers and future believers

We Christians hear Christ clearly convey that the world contextually includes exclusively current believers and future believers.

Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL

The Word of God

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (TomL 12:47)

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.

See your heart has your world of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).

Let's look at the term world in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17:

​

16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

(John 3:17-18)​

​

Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being as per Christ recorded in John 3:18 (directly adjacent to John 3:16-17 instead of John 12:47 that fails as a proof text for your free-willian philosophy as demonstrated above).

The dead in sin must be born of God in order to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3); furthermore, Lord Jesus Christ establishes the ordained order of salvation in John chapter 3 with John 3:3 preceding John 3:16 in the same dialog.

Your free-willian philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to have life in Christ.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE MIGHTY GOD!!!

More hogwash

Why does Christ not judge the unbeliever at that time as I noted previously

Hogwash

These are parallel statements

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

world clearly includes any unbeliever in John 12:47

John 3 passage would as well were you open to obvious truth

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Christ was given to the world, but only those in the world who believe are saved

Are you going to deny unbelievers exist in the world

and even if you were so inclined John 12:47 serves to refute your inclination.







God did not cause you to do anything. Only your presuppositions and fealty to an assumed theology lead you to deny truth here

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

The reason Christ does not judge the unbeliever is he did not come to judge the world

That obviously puts the unbeliever in the world

The world Christ was given for








You fail to show any adulteration as you failed to address the obvious argument above






Which is why you add to the passage what is not there and is not a current part of the debate

The issue here is the meaning of the term world and the extent of god's love for the world as well as his giving Christ for the world




Sorry that is deceptive as I have not argued free will based on john 12:47 and 3:17

Why the attempt to distort the issue I brought up

you had stated



That is the issue. It is disingenuous of you to attempt to change it.

Defend that issue or concede it

 

[TomL]

This is a total misrepresentation of what I said. That is NOT the paragraph I was referring to. It was the previous paragraph that I was talking about. You can't even get your facts straight.

You are also displaying poor grammar skills and I have to apologize for that? Explain that to me.

My statement was solely about RB's grammar skills, not about God. If you equate RB's grammar skills with God then you're further gone than what I previously imagined.

This is the Biblical truth that you are running as fast as you can from:

At what point does one begin to "see the Kingdom of God"? John 3:3 clearly says at the point when one is "born again".

(John 3:3) Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

By definition, when one is "born again" he becomes a "child of God" so the two states are synonymous.

John 1:12 clearly states that one becomes a child of God when he receives Christ and believes on His name.

(John 1:12) But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,

Conclusion: Belief in Christ precedes being born again. Calvinism comes crashing down before your very eyes in a big ball of fire.

Calvinism must bifurcate becoming a child of God and being born again

 

[Kermos]

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7(yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5;λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

Continued :

1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the worldand therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture and specifically in 1 John makes me a non calvinist then I'm here to official renounce my association with that group.

I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation. Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and I will seek, search truth until my dying day and never allow any systematic theology or bias to cloud my view of Scripture.

hope this helps !!!

Your "hope this helps" about your post truly helps in demonstrating your failure to understand context, again. By God's grace for God's glory, I am sequentially segment this post to make it easier to understand context.

1. Interpretation of Holy Scripture
2. @TomL's constraint on John 3:16-17 by John 12:47
3. Christ's context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
4. Your context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
5. Christ's context of Christ's sayings recorded in John 3:16-18
6. Dogma and doctrine are importantly Truth (John 14:6)

1. Interpretation of Holy Scripture
   
   You inherit the writings of other people as your own writings when you exalt those people's writings as authority in your posts.
   
   Your heart's treasure securely holds to that which you call "The Golden Rule of Interpretation".
   
   
   When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.
   ​
   
   That's a very high authoritative bar that you set there, civic, your "Golden Rule of Interpretation".
   
   Your fleshly mind's "common sense" is all that you need, and you can make "plain sense of Scripture" exclusively using your "common sense" before you are born of God according to your cumulative writings.
   
   Now, the time has come to compare and contrast your dearly held belief with the Apostle Peter's words:
   

   The Fleshly Traditions of Men		Holy Scripture
   know this first of all, that every prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for it matters not whether prophecy was made by an act of human will, or men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (2 civic 1:20-21)		know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (2 Peter 1:20-21)

   
   Peter and I are God-centered.
   
   You and TomL are man-centered.
   
2. @TomL's constraint on John 3:16-17 by John 12:47
   
   TomL caused himself to repeatedly preach that John 12:47 dictates the meaning of the word world in John 3:16-17; on the other hand, God caused me to proclaim that the word world in John 3:18 is contextually contiguously relevant in the same dialog as John 3:16-17 as compared to the temporally distant dialog in John 12:47.
   
3. Christ's context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
   
   Here is the precious and pure Word of God "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).
   
   Lord and God Jesus Christ saves each one from the wrath of God who believes in the Son whom the Father has sent; in contrast, every one goes to hell who does not believe in Jesus (John 7:21-27).
   
   The Son says "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day" (John 6:39).
   
   There are two contexts regarding saved persons and unsaved people within the 29 words issued by Jesus recorded in John 12:47:
   

   Clause		Context
   If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him		unsaved people / all unbelievers
   for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world		saved people (now and then) / current believers and future believers

   
   We Christians hear Christ clearly convey that the world contextually includes exclusively current believers and future believers, that is, saved people, as per His loving "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:47).
   
4. Your context for Christ's sayings recorded in John 12:47
   
   Of the word "world" in John 12:47, your heart assigned the definition of "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" in a fashion similar to TomL.
   
   

   Clause		Context
   If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him		unsaved people / all unbelievers
   for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world		the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ[

   
   The implications of your "the world" in John 12:47 are multiple.
   
   According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin unbelievers:
   • if Bob chooses to believe in Christ, then God must profit Bob with eternal life.
   • if Alice chooses to believe not in Christ, then God must punish Alice with eternal damnation.
   • The conclusion: the causative factor for a person being rewarded with eternal life is whether a person “chooses to believe in Christ”.
   So man is the cause of eternal life because man goes to hell without man choosing to believe in Christ.
   
   On to another dark consequence of your Free-willian Philosophy "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ[" is that your heart's treasure renders Christ's death an abject failure for every unbeliever who dies as an unbeliever because Christ failed to save that saved unbeliever (see John 12:47 and the Alice example above).
   
   Your belief in failure atonement results in Christ being a false prophet because Jesus fails to save all that he died to save.
   
   The context around John 12:47 is relevant.
   
   Your heart set "the world" equal to "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ[", so your heart equivocates "the world" into a thing of "all unbelievers who call in their own initiative speaking their self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me".
   
   Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
   

   The word of civic		The Word of God
   If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save any unbeliever who calls in his own initiative speaking his self-willed change of heart from unbeliever to believer in Me. (civic 12:47)		If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. (John 12:47-49)

   And so go your adulterations of precious and Holy Word of God again and again and again.
   
   See your heart has your "the world" of unbelievers being superior to Jesus because your unbelievers speak on their own initiative in contrast to Jesus who says "I did not speak on My own initiative" (John 12:49).
   
   A deeper sinister darkness lurks in your context for John 12:47. Both Bob and Alice start off as part of the world, so even believer Bob is unsaved because unbeliever Alice is unsaved which causes the entirety of the world to be unsaved from the wrath of God. Do not be deceived, Lord Jesus said "to save the world" in John 12:47 - "the world" is an aggregate phrase indicating the entire world.
   
   God caused me to address TomL's specific Free-willian Philosophical point, and you injected yourself as TomL's champion regarding TomL's Free-willian Philosophy, so you are one who does not receive Christ's sayings (John 12:48 - notice John 12:47 which is directly adjacent to John 12:48).
   
5. Christ's context of Christ's sayings recorded in John 3:16-18
   
   Let's look at Jesus' term the world in a directly adjacent critical text to John 3:16-17:
   
   
   16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
   (John 3:17-18)
   ​
   
   Clearly, unbelievers of the world are judged as their default state of being as per Christ recorded in John 3:18 (which is directly adjacent to John 3:16-17 instead of way over to John 12:47 that fails as a proof text for your Free-willian Philosophy as demonstrated above).
   
   The dead in sin must be born of God in order to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3); furthermore, Lord Jesus Christ establishes the ordained order of salvation in John chapter 3 with John 3:3 preceding John 3:16 in the same dialog.
   
   Your Free-willian Philosophy holds that the dead in sin cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ), so your Free-willian Philosophy is false and in a state of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) because the dead in sin do not cause themselves to be born of God (have life in Christ).
   
   The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
   
6. Dogma is important Truth (John 14:6)
   
   Your heart discounts the concept of dogma with your words "I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma".
   
   Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the dogma which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe (Acts 16:4).

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE FAITH!!!