All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism

[Seabass]

I said, "You believe that just because something is commanded by the Lord, then that "something" is essential to salvation.
You (Seabass) responded: "I admit, in all the many, many years on all the forums I have participated on this has to be one of the most incredible statements I have read...and I have read a lot of incredible statements."
In might be essential to what Jesus wants done at a certain time, but that is not always essential to salvation. There are lots of things that He wants other than salvation.

In Matthew 9:27-31 two blind men were commanded by the Lord to tell "no one" about Jesus healing them. But they disobeyed Jesus and spread the news everywhere. Were they eternally lost because they disobeyed Jesus? Was telling no one essential to their salvation? Of course not. They should have obeyed Jesus, but would refraining from telling people have saved them? No, they were saved by their faith, not by refraining to tell people.

In John 21:10, Jesus commanded the disciples "Bring some of the fish which you have now caught?" Was bringing fish essential to their salvation? No, it was a command to be obeyed, but it had nothing to do with their salvation. Salvation comes through faith, not by bringing some fish.

In Mark 11:2 "Go into the village ... you will find a colt ... untie it and bring it here." Was obeying Jesus here essential to their salvation? Of course not, they were saved by faith, not by bringing a colt to Jesus.

In Matthew 5:34 Jesus said, "Make no oath at all ..." So is it essential to our salvation that we must never take an oath? No, not making an oath never saved anyone, we're saved by faith.

Matthew 5:42 Jesus said, "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you." Is this essential for our salvation? No, we're not saved by giving and lending, we're saved by our faith.

Even though Jesus commands certain works, or in the case of the two blind men (and making an oath), forbids certain works, obeying those commands are not what saves us. We're saved by His grace through our faith - i.e. NO works.

In Matthew 28:19 Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, ...", will not baptizing some immediately, or not baptizing some at all, cause them or their disciples to not be saved? No, they are already disciples, which means they are already saved. They should obey and baptize new disciples, and new disciples should obey and be baptized, but not doing so does not revoke their salvation. Baptism doesn't save, having faith in Jesus is what saves.

Romans says all are under sin and those under sin are in need of justification. What the NT requires of all in need of justification is belief Jn 8:24 repentance, Lk 13;3 confession Mt 10:32-33 baptism Mk 16:16 and live a faithful life unto death Rev 2:10. These are required of each and every person seeking justification, no exceptions. Hence Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey Him by following these requirements of Christ.

There are examples in the Bible of certain individual(s) being given specific commands and those individual(s) salvation depended upon their meeting those specific commands given to them. Adam & Eve were specifically given the command to not eat of a certain tree but upon disobeying that command they died spiritually. Noah was given the specific command to build the ark, had he disobeyed he too would have died spiritually. Those individuals given specific commands but broke them had an obligation to find forgiveness.


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Examining Matthew's Account of the Great Comission (Mt 28-19-20)

"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

Technical information on the Greek language I present can be found in link here:
apologeticspress.org
What is the Purpose of Baptism? (Part 1) - Apologetics Press
(quotes below in blue font are taken from above link)

Matthew 28:19-20 constitutes the “marching orders” for the apostles in promulgating the spread of Christianity in the first century. Embedded within this “Great Commission” is one of the key prerequisites to being saved: water baptism. The precise wording expressed by Jesus provides...
apologeticspress.org apologeticspress.org


The main verb here is "make" with present participles "baptizing" and "teaching". "Present participles indicate action that occurs at the same time as the action of the main verb." Therefore baptizing and teaching are HOW disciples are made.

"Turning now to the Greek grammar of Matthew 28:19-20, our Lord uttered an imperative directive couched in the main verb matheteusate from matheteuo—“to make disciples.” (13) The apostles were to go throughout the world and “make disciples.” Jesus clarified this directive with two present participles: “teaching” and “baptizing.” Southern Baptist scholar of New Testament Greek A.T. Robertson says these two participles in this passage are “modal participles,” (14) i.e., they identify the manner, means, or method by which the action of the main verb is accomplished."
"Samuel Green agreed, listing Matthew 28:19 as an example of the “modal” use, “setting forth the manner in which the given action was performed.”(15) Dana and Mantey state that the “Modal Participle” “may signify the manner in which the action of the main verb is accomplished.”16 Hence, they pinpoint the mode by which the action of the main verb is achieved (also “manner or means”).(17)"

13 James Moulton (1919), A Grammar of New Testament Greek: Accidence and Word Formation (Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark), 2:400.
14 A.T. Robertson (1934), A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Nashville, TN: Broadman), p. 1128.
15 Samuel Green (1886), Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament (New York: Fleming H. Revell), p. 332.
16 p. 228. Also Curtis Vaughan and Virtus Gideon (1979), A Greek Grammar of the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman), pp. 157,160
17 See also Burton, p. 172—“The participle expressing manner or means often denotes the same action as that of the principal verb…. [A]s respects its modal function it is a participle of manner or means.” Also Cleon Rogers Jr. and Cleon Rogers III (1998), The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan), p. 66.


BOTH teaching and baptizing therefore are the mode or means by which disciples are 'made'.

Example:
“Go make pancakes, mixing the batter in the porcelain bowl, pouring it on the griddle.” "Make" being the main verb, with "mixing" and "pouring" being modal participles in how pancakes are made. Hence there are no pancakes if there is no mixing and pouring. There is no such thing as an unmixed, unpoured pancake. Likewise teaching and baptizing are how disciples are made...there is no such thing as an untaught, unbaptized Christian. Mixing alone does not make pancakes, it takes BOTH mixing and pouring. Likewise teaching alone does not make disciples..it takes BOTH teaching and baptizing....no such thing as an unbaptized Christian per Matthew's and Mark's accounts of the Great Commission.

 

[dwight92070]

In the interest of time, I will list all the remaining verses that I found, which deal with salvation, but do not mention baptism as being required for salvation. The list goes from the book of Acts to Jude, giving a total of 213 verses. I will just give the address without comment, since this has been quite time consuming, but also rewarding to see just how many there are. I don't think I listed those in Acts yet, so I will start there, then jump over to 2 Timothy, where I left off.

Acts 4:4; 5:14; 6:7; 9:42; 11:21,24; 13:12, 38-39,48; 14:1; 15:7-9,11,19-20,29; 17:4,12,34; 19:18; 26:18; 28:24

2 Timothy 1:9; 2:10; 3:15

Titus 3:5-6, 7

Hebrews 2:9,11; 3:6,12,14; 4:3; 5:9; 6:1-2, 4-5; 7:25; 8:10-12; 9:14,15; 10:10,14,39; 11:6

1 Peter 1:1-2,3,18-19,20-21,23; 2:9,10,24,25

2 Peter 1:1,10-11

1 John 2:23,24; 3:14,19: 4:2,13,15,16; 5:1,4,5,10,11,12,13,20

2 John 9

3 John 4

Jude 1,24

I did not do the gospels, since Jesus' command to baptize new disciples did not occur until after He was raised from the dead - Matthew 28:19-20
Nor did I do Revelation, since the word "baptize" and all of its forms do not appear in this book. Also the word "salvation" is only used three times- I didn't see any other forms of the word in Revelation. So, unless I'm missing something, which is possible, Revelation does not apply to verses I was listing.

My conclusion: After two months of looking up all these verses, I am convinced more than ever that water baptism is NOT required for a person's salvation. In every Biblical instance, water baptism occurred AFTER the person or persons BELIEVED, never before they believed. Nor is there any evidence that salvation occurs at the same time as water baptism - speculation and misinterpretation, but not evidence. However, as I have said many times, I do feel that water baptism IS REQUIRED to grow spiritually, because Jesus commanded that new disciples should be baptized. If you are a believer and have never been baptized, you should obey the Lord and be baptized. Or if you were baptized before, but were not sincere in your faith in Christ, or if you were baptized as a baby, but now you are sincere in your faith in Jesus, you should obey the Lord and get baptized in water.

 

[Seabass]

In the interest of time, I will list all the remaining verses that I found, which deal with salvation, but do not mention baptism as being required for salvation. The list goes from the book of Acts to Jude, giving a total of 213 verses. I will just give the address without comment, since this has been quite time consuming, but also rewarding to see just how many there are. I don't think I listed those in Acts yet, so I will start there, then jump over to 2 Timothy, where I left off.

Acts 4:4; 5:14; 6:7; 9:42; 11:21,24; 13:12, 38-39,48; 14:1; 15:7-9,11,19-20,29; 17:4,12,34; 19:18; 26:18; 28:24

2 Timothy 1:9; 2:10; 3:15

Titus 3:5-6, 7

Hebrews 2:9,11; 3:6,12,14; 4:3; 5:9; 6:1-2, 4-5; 7:25; 8:10-12; 9:14,15; 10:10,14,39; 11:6

1 Peter 1:1-2,3,18-19,20-21,23; 2:9,10,24,25

2 Peter 1:1,10-11

1 John 2:23,24; 3:14,19: 4:2,13,15,16; 5:1,4,5,10,11,12,13,20

2 John 9

3 John 4

Jude 1,24

I did not do the gospels, since Jesus' command to baptize new disciples did not occur until after He was raised from the dead - Matthew 28:19-20
Nor did I do Revelation, since the word "baptize" and all of its forms do not appear in this book. Also the word "salvation" is only used three times- I didn't see any other forms of the word in Revelation. So, unless I'm missing something, which is possible, Revelation does not apply to verses I was listing.

My conclusion: After two months of looking up all these verses, I am convinced more than ever that water baptism is NOT required for a person's salvation. In every Biblical instance, water baptism occurred AFTER the person or persons BELIEVED, never before they believed. Nor is there any evidence that salvation occurs at the same time as water baptism - speculation and misinterpretation, but not evidence. However, as I have said many times, I do feel that water baptism IS REQUIRED to grow spiritually, because Jesus commanded that new disciples should be baptized. If you are a believer and have never been baptized, you should obey the Lord and be baptized. Or if you were baptized before, but were not sincere in your faith in Christ, or if you were baptized as a baby, but now you are sincere in your faith in Jesus, you should obey the Lord and get baptized in water.

Why do you water your time with this?

You will not find a single verse that catelogs all that is needed to know about NT gospel salvation. You must examine all salvific verses, including the ones that do speak about the necessity of water baptism, to gain an accurate understanding. Cherry picking verses you like while disregarding ones you do not like will not work.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In the interest of time, I will list all the remaining verses that I found, which deal with salvation, but do not mention baptism as being required for salvation. The list goes from the book of Acts to Jude, giving a total of 213 verses. I will just give the address without comment, since this has been quite time consuming, but also rewarding to see just how many there are. I don't think I listed those in Acts yet, so I will start there, then jump over to 2 Timothy, where I left off.

Acts 4:4; 5:14; 6:7; 9:42; 11:21,24; 13:12, 38-39,48; 14:1; 15:7-9,11,19-20,29; 17:4,12,34; 19:18; 26:18; 28:24

2 Timothy 1:9; 2:10; 3:15

Titus 3:5-6, 7

Hebrews 2:9,11; 3:6,12,14; 4:3; 5:9; 6:1-2, 4-5; 7:25; 8:10-12; 9:14,15; 10:10,14,39; 11:6

1 Peter 1:1-2,3,18-19,20-21,23; 2:9,10,24,25

2 Peter 1:1,10-11

1 John 2:23,24; 3:14,19: 4:2,13,15,16; 5:1,4,5,10,11,12,13,20

2 John 9

3 John 4

Jude 1,24

I did not do the gospels, since Jesus' command to baptize new disciples did not occur until after He was raised from the dead - Matthew 28:19-20
Nor did I do Revelation, since the word "baptize" and all of its forms do not appear in this book. Also the word "salvation" is only used three times- I didn't see any other forms of the word in Revelation. So, unless I'm missing something, which is possible, Revelation does not apply to verses I was listing.

My conclusion: After two months of looking up all these verses, I am convinced more than ever that water baptism is NOT required for a person's salvation. In every Biblical instance, water baptism occurred AFTER the person or persons BELIEVED, never before they believed. Nor is there any evidence that salvation occurs at the same time as water baptism - speculation and misinterpretation, but not evidence. However, as I have said many times, I do feel that water baptism IS REQUIRED to grow spiritually, because Jesus commanded that new disciples should be baptized. If you are a believer and have never been baptized, you should obey the Lord and be baptized. Or if you were baptized before, but were not sincere in your faith in Christ, or if you were baptized as a baby, but now you are sincere in your faith in Jesus, you should obey the Lord and get baptized in water.

Congratulations for the well-presented thread, and the comprehensive presentation of biblical passages.
One comment for @Seabass and our readers in general

In these kind of debates, it is healthy for both sides to recognize that the Bible presents passages that seem to support one or other vision of the topic.
Whether we are debating on the Trinity, penal substitutionary atonement, faith and works, predestination vs free will, need or no need of baptism, rapture or no-rapture, we will find verses supporting one of another position.

This is why it is important to ask us: What makes more sense (is more compatible with reason)? What is more likely to represent properly the overall teaching of the Bible? What helps me more to love God and love my neighbor?

If baptism was a necessary requirement for salvation, then salvation would depend on a rite.
Would this be more compatible with reason? Would this help me to love my brothers more?

 

[Seabass]

Congratulations for the well-presented thread, and the comprehensive presentation of biblical passages.
One comment for @Seabass and our readers in general

In these kind of debates, it is healthy for both sides to recognize that the Bible presents passages that seem to support one or other vision of the topic.
Whether we are debating on the Trinity, penal substitutionary atonement, faith and works, predestination vs free will, need or no need of baptism, rapture or no-rapture, we will find verses supporting one of another position.

This is why it is important to ask us: What makes more sense (is more compatible with reason)? What is more likely to represent properly the overall teaching of the Bible? What helps me more to love God and love my neighbor?

If baptism was a necessary requirement for salvation, then salvation would depend on a rite.
Would this be more compatible with reason? Would this help me to love my brothers more?

Hello,

God and His word operate on principles of logic and reasoning. Therefore if one wants to debate the necessity of water baptism one's argument MUST at least be based on logic and reasoning. Too many of these anti-water baptism 'arguments' are are NOT based on logic/reasoning. A person can use logic/reasoning and still love God and their neighbor.

God, for His own reasons, has chosen water baptism as the point He saves men (Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3-5; 1 Cor 1:13; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:24-25; Eph 5:26; Col 2:11-12; 1 Pet 3:20-21; Tts 3:5; etc).
That settles the issue for man does not have the right to question God if God wants salvation to depend upon a 'rite'. Was God wrong for requiring Naaman to dip 7 times in the Jordan River to be healed? Naaman thought so, but he had no right to question God. But it was not until Naaman put aside his own opinions on how he thought (2 Kings 5:11) he should be healed and obediently submitted to doing God's will.....that he healed.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hello,

God and His word operate on principles of logic and reasoning. Therefore if one wants to debate the necessity of water baptism one's argument MUST at least be based on logic and reasoning. Too many of these anti-water baptism are are NOT based on logic/reasoning. A person can use logic/reasoning and still love God and their neighbor.

God, for His own reasons, has chosen water baptism as the point He saves men (Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Rom 6:3-5; 1 Cor 1:13; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:24-25; Eph 5:26; Col 2:11-12; 1 Pet 3:20-21; Tts 3:5; etc).
That settles the issue for man does not have the right to question God if God wants salvation to depend upon a 'rite'.

We have the right and the duty to question any theological system, dogma or religious belief that is preached to us.
You seem to believe we are questioning God, when in fact we are questioning a belief.

If someone comes to me preaching that his sacred textbook proclaims that God commands us to wear day and night a cotton undergarment to be saved, I have the right and the duty to challenge that.
Either
A) His textbook is not inspired by God or
B) His textbook is inspired by God, but the intepretation of such preacher is wrong

Was God wrong for requiring Naaman to dip 7 times in the Jordan River to be healed? Naaman thought so, but he had no right to question God. But it was not until Naaman put aside his own opinions on how he thought (2 Kings 5:11) he should be healed and obediently submitted to doing God's will.....that he healed.

God used stories, symbols and metaphors that made sense for people of that time, but which does not necessarily make sense in our time.
The number seven had a meaning.
Getting submerged in water had a meaning.
Being the Jordan River, an unimportant place of an unimportant country, had a meaning.

We understand through the Bible, however, that God did not require rites to forgive and transform the lives of people. He was interested in a change of heart.

 

[Seabass]

We have the right and the duty to question any theological system, dogma or religious belief that is preached to us.
You seem to believe we are questioning God, when in fact we are questioning a belief.

If someone comes to me preaching that his sacred textbook proclaims that God commands us to wear day and night a cotton undergarment to be saved, I have the right and the duty to challenge that.
Either
A) His textbook is not inspired by God or
B) His textbook is inspired by God, but the intepretation of such preacher is wrong


God used stories, symbols and metaphors that made sense for people of that time, but which does not necessarily make sense in our time.
The number seven had a meaning.
Getting submerged in water had a meaning.
Being the Jordan River, an unimportant place of an unimportant country, had a meaning.

We understand through the Bible, however, that God did not require rites to forgive and transform the lives of people. He was interested in a change of heart.

I do not care that people argue, debate, discuss theological differences, I simply suggest logic/reasoning be used or arguments will get dismissed quickly if those arguments are not logical.

When God had Naaman to dip in the Jordan River 7 times, Naaman question it by saying other rivers were better to dip in rather than the Jordan. Or he when thought someone should just strike his hand over the disease to heal it...then Naaman was questioning God.

God has commanded water baptism, then when a person question the necessity of it when God has already commanded it, then that person is questioning God. When God commanded the Gentiles to be water baptized (Acts 10:47-48) and if the Gentiles had said being baptized is rite and man should not be saved by performing a rite, then they would have been questioning God.

I have studied the BIble for many years, decades, and I have yet to find that elusive NT gospel verse where God told man to "do nothing and thou shalt be saved", a verse that so many claims to be in the Bible.

 

[dwight92070]

Why do you water your time with this?

You will not find a single verse that catelogs all that is needed to know about NT gospel salvation. You must examine all salvific verses, including the ones that do speak about the necessity of water baptism, to gain an accurate understanding. Cherry picking verses you like while disregarding ones you do not like will not work.

Duh - that's exactly what I did - examined all salvific verses and 213 of them speak of salvation, with no mention of water baptism. And yes, they do tell us all that is required for salvation - God's grace through our faith. How many did I find that speak of salvation and water baptism? 10!
And even those 10 do not tell us that water baptism is required for salvation!
When you look at EVERY salvific verse, there's no cherry picking, so that's a false accusation.

But, in case I missed it, maybe you can give me ONE verse that proves that baptism is required for salvation?

I challenge you to read ALL 213 verses, like I did. You might learn something. In fact, if you're not willing to do that, then you're not really serious about what you believe. They are, after all, the word of God.

 

[Seabass]

Duh - that's exactly what I did - examined all salvific verses and 213 of them speak of salvation, with no mention of water baptism. And yes, they do tell us all that is required for salvation - God's grace through our faith. How many did I find that speak of salvation and water baptism? 10!
And even those 10 do not tell us that water baptism is required for salvation!
When you look at EVERY salvific verse, there's no cherry picking, so that's a false accusation.

But, in case I missed it, maybe you can give me ONE verse that proves that baptism is required for salvation?

I challenge you to read ALL 213 verses, like I did. You might learn something. In fact, if you're not willing to do that, then you're not really serious about what you believe. They are, after all, the word of God.

Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48; Rom 6:3-5; 1 Cor 1:13; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:24-25; Eph 5:26; Col 2:11-12; 1 Pet 3:20-21; Tts 3:5; etc...all are salvific verses.

I notice also how you like to drain the water out of verses that are speaking about human administered water baptism that has been commanded by God to all men and convienently call it Holy Spirit baptism yet unable to prove it.

You also dismiss that words as believe, faith, baptism are used as synechdoches...... a part for the whole. When Peter said baptism saves (1 Pet 3:21) he is not implying baptism alone saves but baptism is being used as a synedoche where baptism (part) stands for the whole (belief, repentance, confession)


2 Cor 7:10----------------repentance >>>>>>>>>>> saves
Rom 10:9-10------------confession >>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21----------------baptism >>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
Eph 2:8 ------------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves

Since there is but one way to be saved, no alternatives, and the Bible does not contradict its;ef, it can be easily seen that a NT faith MUST include repentance, confession and baptism. You even listed salvific verses that mention 'repentance' and 'confession'. You are then refuting the old belief only false narrative showing all the belief only in the world cannot save a person who will not repent. All the belief only in the world cannot save a person who will not confess Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Duh - that's exactly what I did - examined all salvific verses and 213 of them speak of salvation, with no mention of water baptism. And yes, they do tell us all that is required for salvation - God's grace through our faith. How many did I find that speak of salvation and water baptism? 10!
And even those 10 do not tell us that water baptism is required for salvation!
When you look at EVERY salvific verse, there's no cherry picking, so that's a false accusation.

But, in case I missed it, maybe you can give me ONE verse that proves that baptism is required for salvation?

I challenge you to read ALL 213 verses, like I did. You might learn something. In fact, if you're not willing to do that, then you're not really serious about what you believe. They are, after all, the word of God.

There are a handful of alleged proof texts that certain folks use to try and prove that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, yet after a careful examination of each of those texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, those texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being water baptized (Acts 10:44-47). This observation is balanced, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ for salvation which resulted in remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

The CoC 4-step plan of salvation is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

Those who have been saved through faith have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. So, repentance is not a work for salvation that comes "after" faith as the CoC teaches. Repentance is a change of mind which precedes faith in Christ for salvation. The CoC reverses the scriptural order of repentance and faith in salvation, yet to the contrary we find:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

The word of faith is in our mouth and heart together (Romans 10:8-10) so confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after we believe unto righteousness, as the CoC teaches. Notice in Romans 10:9,10 confess/believe; believe/confess. Not two separate steps to salvation but chronologically together. We confess (with divine influence) that Jesus is Lord when we are initially saved through faith and after salvation (1 Corinthians 12:3) unlike "lip service" confession apart from divine influence. (Matthew 7:22-23)

So, simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" apart from divine influence by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation. Folks in the CoC postulate everything upon man’s obedience to the letter of the word, denying an influential work of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 16:14; 1 Thessalonians 1:5) This also explains why their preaching relies heavily on human logic and legalism. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Water baptism "follows" salvation through faith/believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and becoming saved. (Acts 8:36-38; 10:43-47; 16:31-34)

Folks in the CoC also fail to understand that we are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, so faith is alive at its origin (Ephesians 2:5-8) prior to producing good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Salvation by a living, active faith is their way of saying we are saved by faith AND works based on their misinterpretation of James 2:14-26 which culminates in works-righteousness in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 4:2-6)

 

[FreeInChrist]

Why do you water your time with this?

You will not find a single verse that catelogs all that is needed to know about NT gospel salvation. You must examine all salvific verses, including the ones that do speak about the necessity of water baptism,

I dont think so.

When the subject of a title is...

All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism​

And such an endeavor is achieved one should never include those of You must examine all salvific verses, including the ones that do speak about the necessity of water baptism.

Adding those that include the water will only be done to water down the point of this thread.

As it stands, every time a subject comes up mentioning that B word, the dipping verses arrive without effort.

If you want to make such a list, have at it.

Make sure to make 2 lists. One that is for the Baptism Saves people, and a separate one for those that receive baptism
for a myriad of reasons that do not include being saved. There can be found in the new testament.

to gain an accurate understanding. Cherry picking verses you like while disregarding ones you do not like will not work.

Really? That is just silly.

That would be like asking someone to show all their pairs of red tennis shoes, and they came back with every pair of red shoes they have.

 

[Seabass]

I dont think so.

When the subject of a title is...

All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism​

And such an endeavor is achieved one should never include those of You must examine all salvific verses, including the ones that do speak about the necessity of water baptism.

Adding those that include the water will only be done to water down the point of this thread.

As it stands, every time a subject comes up mentioning that B word, the dipping verses arrive without effort.

If you want to make such a list, have at it.

Make sure to make 2 lists. One that is for the Baptism Saves people, and a separate one for those that receive baptism
for a myriad of reasons that do not include being saved. There can be found in the new testament.





Really? That is just silly.

That would be like asking someone to show all their pairs of red tennis shoes, and they came back with every pair of red shoes they have.

When studying a particular subject as salvation, basic logic and proper exegesis require all verses that deal with that subject must be examined to have a complete understanding of that subject. No one can read just the first sentence of the first paragraph of the first page of a 1000 page novel then declare to know all there is to know about that novel. The first sentence does not contain the plot, subplots, characters in the novel or how the novel ends.

An AI overview of proper exegesis and what happens when one 'cherry picks':

AI Overview

. In the context of Biblical studies, exegesis is a critical process for understanding a passage of scripture by delving into its original meaning and intent.

To properly conduct exegesis on a particular subject, one must examine all relevant verses related to that subject. This is crucial for obtaining a thorough and accurate interpretation.

Why examining all relevant verses is vital in exegesis:

• Holistic Understanding: By considering all passages on a topic, you gain a more complete picture of how the biblical authors addressed that subject.
• Contextual Integrity: Looking at verses in their immediate and wider contexts helps avoid taking isolated statements out of their intended meaning.
• Avoiding Eisegesis: Examining all relevant verses helps prevent "eisegesis," which is reading your own ideas into the text rather than extracting the author's meaning.
• Identifying Themes and Nuances: A comprehensive study of the relevant verses allows you to identify recurring themes, subtle nuances, and different perspectives on the subject within the Bible.

In essence, exegesis is not simply about finding a few verses that support a particular viewpoint. It is about a careful analytical study of the scriptures to understand the original meaning of a passage and its relevance to the reader. This requires a comprehensive examination of all related texts, taking into account their historical, literary, and theological contexts

Eisegesis where people read their own bias into a text/verse occurs frequently. People avoid reading the verses that require repentance (Acts 2:38) confession (Rom 10:9-10) and baptism (1Per 3:21) to be saved then read into the Bible "belief only" saves. People look just for the verses they think support their particular theological bias while conveniently ignoring those verse that do not.

Again, just because baptism is not found in every single salvific verse does not imply baptism is non-essential to salvation. "Believe" is not in every single salvific verse but that does not make it non-essential to salvation. Repentance, confession or the blood of Christ are not found in every single salvific verses but that does not imply they are non-essential to salvation.

 

[Tobias]

Both Calvin and the Westminster Divines taught that baptism is the typical means through which God applies certain benefits of salvation to us. Actually, in my estimation, the Westminster Divines ascribed more benefits to baptism than did Calvin.

 

[Complete]

' I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you
that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness,
with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is
.. one body, and
,,,, one Spirit, even as ye are called in
...... one hope of your calling
........ One Lord,
.......... one faith,
............ one baptism,
.............. One God and Father of all,
Who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
But unto every one of us is given grace
according to the measure of the gift of Christ.'
(Eph 4:1-7)

 

[FreeInChrist]

When studying a particular subject as salvation, basic logic and proper exegesis require all verses that deal with that subject must be examined to have a complete understanding of that subject.

The purpose of the thread, as I understand it, was NOT for discussion on salvation.

But I trust you have been around long enough to know that when a baptism subject comes up it is almost always centered on
"Baptism Saves" or something similar and if anyone brings up that Baptism is not required to be saved it is either ignored, or even , as someone once said, it did not mean what was written.

He was kind enough to post all the verses that show that being saved Can occur without water baptism.

If I were to point out that the jailer got saved then came the baptism for his entire household, How quick do you think someone, perhaps you would pipe up with Make 16:16 to prove this was the only way?
But we are not discussing baptim and the reason for it.

So I again thank @dwight92070 for the time and patience to post all that he did.

Why dont you post every verse that says Baptism saves? Without those that just save baptism needs to be done as obeying Jesus.

I also would like that specific list.

No one can read just the first sentence of the first paragraph of the first page of a 1000 page novel then declare to know all there is to know about that novel. The first sentence does not contain the plot, subplots, characters in the novel or how the novel ends.

An AI overview of proper exegesis and what happens when one 'cherry picks':

AI Overview

. In the context of Biblical studies, exegesis is a critical process for understanding a passage of scripture by delving into its original meaning and intent.

To properly conduct exegesis on a particular subject, one must examine all relevant verses related to that subject. This is crucial for obtaining a thorough and accurate interpretation.

Why examining all relevant verses is vital in exegesis:

• Holistic Understanding: By considering all passages on a topic, you gain a more complete picture of how the biblical authors addressed that subject.
• Contextual Integrity: Looking at verses in their immediate and wider contexts helps avoid taking isolated statements out of their intended meaning.
• Avoiding Eisegesis: Examining all relevant verses helps prevent "eisegesis," which is reading your own ideas into the text rather than extracting the author's meaning.
• Identifying Themes and Nuances: A comprehensive study of the relevant verses allows you to identify recurring themes, subtle nuances, and different perspectives on the subject within the Bible.

In essence, exegesis is not simply about finding a few verses that support a particular viewpoint. It is about a careful analytical study of the scriptures to understand the original meaning of a passage and its relevance to the reader. This requires a comprehensive examination of all related texts, taking into account their historical, literary, and theological contexts

Eisegesis where people read their own bias into a text/verse occurs frequently. People avoid reading the verses that require repentance (Acts 2:38) confession (Rom 10:9-10) and baptism (1Per 3:21) to be saved then read into the Bible "belief only" saves. People look just for the verses they think support their particular theological bias while conveniently ignoring those verse that do not.

Again, just because baptism is not found in every single salvific verse does not imply baptism is non-essential to salvation. "Believe" is not in every single salvific verse but that does not make it non-essential to salvation. Repentance, confession or the blood of Christ are not found in every single salvific verses but that does not imply they are non-essential to salvation.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Both Calvin and the Westminster Divines taught that baptism is the typical means through which God applies certain benefits of salvation to us. Actually, in my estimation, the Westminster Divines ascribed more benefits to baptism than did Calvin.

And you have no problem with both of them saying Baptism for Infants is a go?

It seems many Calvinist draw the line at this one.

Calvin said

“Reason would tell us that baptism is rightly administered to babies. The Lord did not give circumcision long ago without making them (infants) partakers of everything represented by circumcision. He would have been deceiving his people with a sham, if he had reassured them with false signs. The idea is very shocking. He distinctly states that the circumcision of the infant is the seal of covenant promise. If the covenant remains firm and unmoved, this is just as relevant to the children of Christians today as it was to the children of the Jews under the Old Testament…The truth of baptism applies to infants, so why do we deny them the sign? The Lord himself formally admitted infants to his covenant, so what more do we need?”

John Calvin, Institutes of the christian religion, 4:16:5 (Beveridge Edition)

From the West Minster Confession that was produced by the Divines between 1643 to 1653

WCF CHAPTER 28: Of Baptism


1. Baptism is a sacrament of the new testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible church; but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in his church until the end of the world.

2. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.

3. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.

4. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.

5. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it; or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

6. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time.

7. The sacrament of baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.

 

[civic]

When studying a particular subject as salvation, basic logic and proper exegesis require all verses that deal with that subject must be examined to have a complete understanding of that subject. No one can read just the first sentence of the first paragraph of the first page of a 1000 page novel then declare to know all there is to know about that novel. The first sentence does not contain the plot, subplots, characters in the novel or how the novel ends.

An AI overview of proper exegesis and what happens when one 'cherry picks':

AI Overview

. In the context of Biblical studies, exegesis is a critical process for understanding a passage of scripture by delving into its original meaning and intent.

To properly conduct exegesis on a particular subject, one must examine all relevant verses related to that subject. This is crucial for obtaining a thorough and accurate interpretation.

Why examining all relevant verses is vital in exegesis:

• Holistic Understanding: By considering all passages on a topic, you gain a more complete picture of how the biblical authors addressed that subject.
• Contextual Integrity: Looking at verses in their immediate and wider contexts helps avoid taking isolated statements out of their intended meaning.
• Avoiding Eisegesis: Examining all relevant verses helps prevent "eisegesis," which is reading your own ideas into the text rather than extracting the author's meaning.
• Identifying Themes and Nuances: A comprehensive study of the relevant verses allows you to identify recurring themes, subtle nuances, and different perspectives on the subject within the Bible.

In essence, exegesis is not simply about finding a few verses that support a particular viewpoint. It is about a careful analytical study of the scriptures to understand the original meaning of a passage and its relevance to the reader. This requires a comprehensive examination of all related texts, taking into account their historical, literary, and theological contexts

Eisegesis where people read their own bias into a text/verse occurs frequently. People avoid reading the verses that require repentance (Acts 2:38) confession (Rom 10:9-10) and baptism (1Per 3:21) to be saved then read into the Bible "belief only" saves. People look just for the verses they think support their particular theological bias while conveniently ignoring those verse that do not.

Again, just because baptism is not found in every single salvific verse does not imply baptism is non-essential to salvation. "Believe" is not in every single salvific verse but that does not make it non-essential to salvation. Repentance, confession or the blood of Christ are not found in every single salvific verses but that does not imply they are non-essential to salvation.

I was thinking about your screen name. I caught this white sea bass a few years ago in SF Bay

 

[Obadiah]

And you have no problem with both of them saying Baptism for Infants is a go?

It seems many Calvinist draw the line at this one.

Calvin said

“Reason would tell us that baptism is rightly administered to babies. The Lord did not give circumcision long ago without making them (infants) partakers of everything represented by circumcision. He would have been deceiving his people with a sham, if he had reassured them with false signs. The idea is very shocking. He distinctly states that the circumcision of the infant is the seal of covenant promise. If the covenant remains firm and unmoved, this is just as relevant to the children of Christians today as it was to the children of the Jews under the Old Testament…The truth of baptism applies to infants, so why do we deny them the sign? The Lord himself formally admitted infants to his covenant, so what more do we need?”

John Calvin, Institutes of the christian religion, 4:16:5 (Beveridge Edition)

From the West Minster Confession that was produced by the Divines between 1643 to 1653

WCF CHAPTER 28: Of Baptism


1. Baptism is a sacrament of the new testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible church; but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in his church until the end of the world.

2. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.

3. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.

4. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.

5. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it; or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

6. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time.

7. The sacrament of baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.

The non denominational church I attend calls infant Baptism " Dedication" and I'm OK with that.

Baby dedications are a ceremony for parents and the church to commit to raising a child with a knowledge of the Christian faith and supporting them if or when they make the decision to follow Christ and be baptized.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The non denominational church I attend calls infant Baptism " Dedication" and I'm OK with that.

Baby dedications are a ceremony for parents and the church to commit to raising a child with a knowledge of the Christian faith and supporting them if or when they make the decision to follow Christ and be baptized.

That is a good way.

 

[Seabass]

The purpose of the thread, as I understand it, was NOT for discussion on salvation.

But I trust you have been around long enough to know that when a baptism subject comes up it is almost always centered on
"Baptism Saves" or something similar and if anyone brings up that Baptism is not required to be saved it is either ignored, or even , as someone once said, it did not mean what was written.

He was kind enough to post all the verses that show that being saved Can occur without water baptism.

If I were to point out that the jailer got saved then came the baptism for his entire household, How quick do you think someone, perhaps you would pipe up with Make 16:16 to prove this was the only way?
But we are not discussing baptim and the reason for it.

So I again thank @dwight92070 for the time and patience to post all that he did.

Why dont you post every verse that says Baptism saves? Without those that just save baptism needs to be done as obeying Jesus.

I also would like that specific list.

My main point in that post was when one studies a topic, such as salvation, or any other topic one MUST examine ALL verse that deal with that topic to have a complete understanding of that topic. One cannot avoid verses that go against their personal theological bias.

The immediate context in Acts 16 does not say the jailer was saved before he was baptized. Furthermore that contradicts all the verse that put obedience (believing, repenting, confession, baptism) BEFORE salvation which is not Biblically possible. Not a single example in the NT of men being UNconditionally saved while they continued to live in disobedience, defiance of God's will. In all the conversions in Acts, men first had to obey God's will in order to be saved...no one saved while continuing to disobey God's will.