James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[mailmandan]

Dan's perversion of obedience.
Obey just means to believe,

You are being deceptive. I never said that obey "just means" to believe. I said in Romans 10:16 the act of obedience here is choosing to believe the gospel. That is the act of obedience that saves. Not to be confused with multiple acts obedience/works which follow. I have explained this numerous times.

So heres Dan's gospel teaching on obedience. Obey means to believe in his religion.
That's all it means.
Except when he contradicts himself and teaches obedience is more than just belief,

You are thoroughly confused.

Now he teaches any commandment not obeyed is not obedience.

It cannot be both!!!
Either to obey any commandment is obedience.
Or the word obey only means to believe.

More confusion. Until the veil is removed, I might as well be trying to explain algebra to my dog.

Clearly a contradiction.

Clearly you are confused.

Obedience means much more than just to believe the gospel.
And Dan already admitted it,

So, why are you accusing me of a contradiction? Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience and there are multiple acts of obedience that one can obey after they believe the gospel. This is not rocket science.

No they cannot.
Since you teach obeying the commandment of baptism is unnecessary.
You have perverted the gospel.

Obeying the command to be baptized is for those already saved. (Acts 10:43-47)

Romans 6:17,
- but God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered
This obedience was to gospel baptism,

That is your EISEGESIS.

Romans 6:1-6,
- dont you know, that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey you are that ones slave whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness

You can't ever see the word obey or obedience without gravitating to works salvation. Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

I've noticed that works-salvationists will typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works.

In Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation/place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness.

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Paul has always taught obedient faith saves.

Faith that saves results in obedience/good works. You put the cart before the horse because you teach salvation by works.

Acts 10:47-48,
- can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as we have
- and Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord

They believed, received the Holy Spirit and were already saved when they obeyed the command to be baptized.

In the name of the Lord is by the authority of God.
Dan teaches you do not need to obey this commandment to be saved.
Therefore his gospel is faith alone and no obedience to be saved.

More deception. Dan teaches faith in Jesus Christ alone saves. God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Titus confuses the command to be water baptized AFTER we are saved with a command to be saved. Titus teaches a works based false gospel which is disobedience. (Romans 10:16)

Colossians 3:16,17,
- let the word of Christ dwell in you
- and whatever you do in word or work do all in the name of the Lord Jesus

Dan teaches you can be saved without doing everything in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Titus promotes a works based false gospel and claims that it's in the name of the Lord Jesus. Sad.

 

[mailmandan]

Obedience does not result or produce faith

Faith does result in or produce obedience

hope this helps. !!!

Praise the Lord! It's nice to see that someone gets it!

 

[Titus]

Duh. Now answer my question. Who has been 100% obedient to ALL of God's commands 100% of the time?

No one. The Bible never defines obedience to God as perfectly sinless.

Once again you are rewriting the meaning of the gospel into your own definition of obedience to God.

Can one obey the commandment to be baptized and not be perfectly sinless Dan?
Yes they can!!!
Hebrews 5:8-9.

I answer your questions.

 

[Titus]

Obedience does not result or produce faith

Faith does result in or produce obedience

hope this helps. !!!

I've already taught this.

Faith produces good works therefore Faith produces fruit.

Colossians 1:18,
- that we might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work...

You taught works are not fruit of faith.
Yes they are.
A Christians good works is the fruit that faith produces.

If you mean a mans good works is not what produces faith. Then I agree.
The word, gospel is what produces faith and faith produces works/fruit.

 

[Titus]

Praise the Lord! It's nice to see that someone gets it!

As if I dont already teach this.
More misrepresentation, trying to deceive people into believing I dont teach this.

 

[civic]

I've already taught this.

So both you and Dan agree with my statement which means we all agree.

Maybe you are talking passed one another to prove your points. Just a thought fwiw.

hope this helps !!!

 

[mailmandan]

No one.

Thank you!

The Bible never defines obedience to God as perfectly sinless.

Yet we are still safe through faith and not through imperfect obedience.

Once again you are rewriting the meaning of the gospel into your own definition of obedience to God.

Not at all. (Romans 1:16; 10:16)

Can one obey the commandment to be baptized and not be perfectly sinless Dan?
Yes they can!!!

Of course they can yet the gospel is still not be baptized or be condemned.

Hebrews 5:8-9.

I answer your questions.

Thank you. I'm happy to hear that you don't teach sinless perfection. Now in regard to Hebrews 5:8-9, who obeys Him? Believers or make believers?

Only genuine believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only genuine believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments/ practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 2:3; 3:7-10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up from an unregenerate heart in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. (Matthew 7:22-23) So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

 

[mailmandan]

As if I dont already teach this.
More misrepresentation, trying to deceive people into believing I dont teach this.

Here is what you teach below:

Scripture says that faith exists the moment it includes action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).Action is not the fruit of faith. Action is the soul, the life blood, the heart of faith.

So, according to you, faith doesn't exist until this nonexistent faith includes action. You skip right over (Ephesians 2:5-9) and fail to understand that faith has an origin and after being made alive together with Christ/saved by grace through faith, not works, we are then created in Christ Jesus unto action - good works which "follow." (Ephesians 2:10) You still have the cart before the horse.

You are wrong on so many levels and it's because you teach works salvation.