so now you claim to be included within the Shema (Deut 6:4) just as Jesus is. But to do anything you would first need to enter through the door --who is Christ.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
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Blessed
Active Member
No one here wants to undo any part of the bible. As for Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
This verse highlights Jesus’ divine nature and his role as the ultimate witness to God’s truth. It emphasizes Jesus’ trustworthiness and reliability in revealing God’s message to humanity by calling him the “faithful and true witness.” Jesus is the embodiment of God’s ultimate truth, and his life and teachings serve as a testament to God’s faithfulness to his people. Furthermore, referring to Jesus as the “beginning of God’s creation” underscores his preeminence and authority over all of creation.
It points to Jesus as the source and foundation of all that exists, as well as the one who initiates and oversees God’s redemptive plan for humanity as the second member of the Trinity. Know this as the profound implication of Jesus being the faithful and true witness.
Recognize Jesus and shape our understanding of his divinity and sovereignty?
Let this verse serve as a reminder of Jesus’ central role in revealing God’s truth and guiding us towards a deeper relationship with him. Embrace the profound mystery of Jesus’ identity as both fully divine and fully human, and allow this truth to deepen your faith and commitment to following him.
“the beginning of the creation of God” is understood as Jesus being the source and initiator of all creation.
Runningman
Active Member
That's what your bad argument about Jesus being one with God necessitates for anyone who is one with God. Obviously, someone isn't God because they are one with God. Don't use that blasphemous argument anymore.
Blessed
Active Member
The conclusion is your mistaken.
Your concepts are totally contrary to the teaching of the New Testament in which Jesus is revealed as the Eternal Creator and not a created being (John 1:1–4). As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of Jehovah are also ascribed to Jesus. Note these powerful examples:
He is self-existent (John 1:1–4; 14:6); only God is self-existent (Psalm 90:2).
Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).
He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).
He created all things (John 1:3). “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16 NKJV).
The Father even calls Jesus God. “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom” (Hebrews 1:8).
Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20, 21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).
Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ‘All hail.’ And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My LORD and my God!” (John 20:26–29).
Even the angels worship Jesus. “And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Hebrews 1:6).
The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’ ” (John 1:48 NKJV).
Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20 NKJV). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10 NKJV).
He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again” (John 10:18). “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).
Therefore, by considering the primary definitions of God, and seeing that Jesus fits every one of those definitions, obviously, the correct conclusion is Jesus must be eternal God.
Grace ambassador
Active Member
Amen! Confirmed By A Multitude Of Plain And Clear Scriptures, Leaving Nary a doubt!:
Why The Triune GodHead Is Correct!
Amen!!
God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit do not have to believe in the Trinity, they are the Trinity. Keep your advice.
Even Jesus’ enemies understood and recognized His claim of equality with the Father God. When He boldly proclaimed, “I and my Father are one,” Jewish leaders were outraged and sought to execute Him. They understood unequivocally that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself. “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God” John 10:30-33
So I understand why you do not believe. Welcome to the Jewish leaders roleplaying club. Be careful it may not be so much fun for you one fine day.
But Jesus cannot be a separate God. That is what unitarians miss when seeing the divinity of Christ.
Blessed
Active Member
I wonder why they don't understand why God became one of us.
To understand why God became one of us, consider these key reasons:
- To reveal His nature: God became human to show us His character and love in a tangible way.
- To redeem humanity: By becoming one of us, He could offer salvation through His sacrifice.
- To relate to our struggles: Jesus experienced human life, allowing Him to empathize with our challenges and suffering.
- To fulfill prophecy: His incarnation fulfilled Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah.
- To establish a new covenant: Through His life and death, He initiated a new relationship between God and humanity.
- To demonstrate perfect love: His life exemplified unconditional love and service, setting a model for us to follow.
amazing grace
Active Member
Knowing that God was in Christ and Christ is in me - pure joy.
Is the phrase "Jesus is God in us" in scripture? I value what is written.
Jesus was not on another planet then came to earth. God was in Christ is how 'God was with us'.
God did not take on human form and if he did he would still be God and we would have no Son of God, no Messiah to die for us.
It was Jesus' ministry. God consecrated, anointed and sent Jesus to be the Savior of the world - John 3:16.
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God. The 'helper', the 'Comforter' is just a way of personifying the gift God was sending through his exalted Son . . .Jesus referred to the holy spirit which would be IN them as 'rivers of living water':
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. [John 7:38,39]
Jesus told his disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father:
And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” . . .[Acts 1:5]
Jesus baptized in holy spirit . . . Jesus poured out the gift on the day of Pentecost:
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. [Acts 2:33]
So the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and the baptism with holy spirit is power from on high and that which with we are sealed [Eph. 1:13] ----not a third person of the Trinity.
amazing grace
Active Member
All belong to the family whose family name is Grace. Yes, Junior Grace is the Son of Papa and Mama Grace. Junior is NOT Papa Grace --- He is the SON OF PAPA GRACE.
Just as Jesus is the Son of God and NOT God - HE IS THE SON OF GOD who is the Messiah.
Why is it difficult to understand? It is not scriptural which means it is not based on truth.
It is totally illogical.
Julie
Active Member
If God is infinite and we are finite, we will never be fully able to understand him. The fullness of what he is will exceed our powers to grasp. Thus, we cannot expect ever to resolve fully this great mystery of our Triune God that He is one in essence but three in person, with each person being fully divine but distinct.
The authority of Scripture is greater than human reason, and we should not expect to completely understand God. But this I know, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each personal and divine and can be rightly called “God.”
The authority of Scripture is greater than human reason, and we should not expect to completely understand God. But this I know, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each personal and divine and can be rightly called “God.”
If Jesus is in us, then God is in us as He is God.
The belief that God and Jesus are in us is a central tenet of Christian faith. It is expressed in various Bible verses, such as Romans 8:10, which states, "Christ is in you," and Ephesians 3:17, which says, "So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith." This concept is further supported by the apostle Paul's teachings, where he describes the indwelling of Christ as a great mystery, highlighting the hope of eternal glory for believers. The indwelling of Christ is not just a spiritual reality but also a transformative presence in the hearts of those who belong to Him, providing a foundation of hope, guidance, and intimate relationship with the Savior.
Grace ambassador
Active Member
Precious friend, incorrect As God's Precious Word Of Truth Teaches:
The Humility Within The GodHead!:
1) The Son Humbled Himself "To Be Sent By The Father" (John 14:26, 15:26 AV)
2) The Holy Spirit Doubly Humbled Himself to "To Be Sent By Both The Father And The SON!"
Please Be Eternally Enriched By:
God's Amazing Grace, Peace, Mercy, And Love!
Amen.
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
Yes you are.
Runningman
Active Member
hi, Blessed,
I am sure you feel strongly about what you believe and it's possible to get a kind of religious tunnel vision in which we just focus in on some of the things that seem to confirm what we have chosen to believe, but I assure you that there is a general context to all of this.
For example, if you will look again at the verses you referenced, John 1:3 says that "All things were made through him" then after that in John 1:14 it says "the Word was made flesh." Flesh is a thing, all things were made, thus Jesus is created.
As far as being self-existent goes, you didn't provide any documentation regarding that. I looked at the verses you provided. This is exactly why Jesus is never called eternal in all of Scripture, because he isn't an eternal, self-existent, being.
You mentioned Revelation 1:8, but that is not a reference to Jesus. As I said, it's possible to get a kind of tunnel vision and forget that the rest of the Bible exists. You have a lot of misunderstanding about Scripture, so it will take some time to clean everything up, but I think the next best thing is to just show you what Revelation 1:4-8 says.
Revelation 1 (NKJV)
4John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
As you can see above in Revelation 1:4,5, there are several who are mentioned:
1. Him who was and who is to come
2. The 7 Spirits
3. and from Jesus Christ
Now, by the time you read Revelation 1:8, you can see that "Him who was and who is to come" is explicitly referred to as the Almighty. That isn't Jesus my friend, that's the Father. Jesus is never called the Almighty in the entire Bible as well. See again how the Almighty and Jesus are entirely distinct:
Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
So there's one of your biggest misunderstanding cleared up, but there' a lot more so I hope you like reading.
Next, you said that Jesus is and has eternal life. Actually, Jesus does have eternal life, but the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is eternal life. Eternal life is actually a thing, but Jesus does have eternal life because he was given something he previously did not have.
John 5
26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself
So as you can see again, Jesus did not always have eternal life. Rather, eternal life was granted to him. Scripture says so.
I also might add, Jesus is never called the Creator in the entire Bible. The Creator would be the Father according to Matthew 11:25, Acts 17:24,25, Acts 4:23-31, etc.
Why do we know that Jesus is not the Creator? For one, it never says he is,. We know the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25 and that God is the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth per Acts 17:24,25. Lord of heaven and earth and Sovereign Lord are not titles given to Jesus, therefore the writers didn't talk about Jesus as the Creator. A great place to clear up some of your misunderstandings would by Acts 4:23-31. Read that prayer for proof that John and Peter didn't believe Jesus is God or the Creator, but rather God's servant. As a side note, there are about a dozen or so titles that Jesus doesn't share with God. I can show you those later, perhaps.
As far as worship goes, there are no examples in the Bible of Jesus being worshipped as God. Yes, it's true that people are bowed down to in the Bible, but but it is never something that Christians are commanded to do. On the matter of who to worship, we should follow the instruction we are given. With that being said, there are no instructions for practicing Christians to worship Jesus in all of Scripture.
This is the way you should be worship if you're a Christian:
John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
So as you can see about, there is a clear and explicit teaching about worshipping the Father in spirit and truth. Only the true worshippers worship this way.
This is also a common misunderstanding as Scripture teaches that Jesus received his wisdom and knowledge from God, not because he is God, but because he was empowered by God:
Isaiah 11
2The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him—
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and strength,
the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the LORD.
3And He will delight in the fear of the LORD.
This also explains why Jesus didn't know everything that God knows and basic things about seasons. Jesus didn't know everything, only what he learned through experience or what was given to him by God.
Jesus doesn't know what God knows:
Matthew 24
36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
This is revealing that Jesus doesn't know everything except what was given to him according to Isaiah 11:2,3
"Through the Spirit" yes, Jesus is with his followers, but he isn't "everywhere" the same way God is. God is everywhere, Jesus is not everywhere nor does the Bible suggest he is.
This is another common misunderstanding that trinitarians make, but focusing on this verse alone doesn't explain why Jesus has the power to give life. The Bible states Jesus had the power to give life after he received that authority from the Father:
John 17
2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.
So there goes another one of your points down. You have provided a very skewed wildly tangled misrepresentation of who Jesus is. Scripture teaches in its full context that Jesus isn't God. I hope that helps.
Runningman
Active Member
No, Jesus cannot be a separate God because he isn't God.
Runningman
Active Member
We know based on the testimony of Jesus and Paul that there are no other gods aside from the Father. The Father is the only true God. I invite you to explore how the Bible teaches such.
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. ''
1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
so now you deny his essential existence
Runningman
Active Member
"Essential existence" is a new term you made up on the fly. As I have said, you couldn't discuss what you believe without introducing non-Biblical terms and concepts.
oh my. How shocking that the understanding of God exceeds your vocabulary.
