All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Angelo]

If the point is that 'our Triune God made us' . . .

Then why doesn't Gen. 1:27 say - So we created man in our own image, in our image we created him, male and female we created them. It may be because God singular usage of elohim, ALONE created.

The point is "our Triune God made us" did make... us not if.

Elohim, translated is the plural divine nature of God. The Hebrew word Elohim is grammatically plural. Three in one.

 

[Aeliana]

Knowing that God was in Christ and Christ is in me - pure joy.

Is the phrase "Jesus is God in us" in scripture? I value what is written.

Jesus was not on another planet then came to earth. God was in Christ is how 'God was with us'.
God did not take on human form and if he did he would still be God and we would have no Son of God, no Messiah to die for us.
It was Jesus' ministry. God consecrated, anointed and sent Jesus to be the Savior of the world - John 3:16.

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God. The 'helper', the 'Comforter' is just a way of personifying the gift God was sending through his exalted Son . . .Jesus referred to the holy spirit which would be IN them as 'rivers of living water':
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. [John 7:38,39]
Jesus told his disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father:
And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” . . .[Acts 1:5]
Jesus baptized in holy spirit . . . Jesus poured out the gift on the day of Pentecost:
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. [Acts 2:33]

So the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and the baptism with holy spirit is power from on high and that which with we are sealed [Eph. 1:13] ----not a third person of the Trinity.

Jesus is God. Scripture refers to Jesus as God in various verses, such as Isaiah 9:6 where he is called "Mighty God," and John 1:1 stating, "the Word was God". Other verses, like John 20:28, show the disciples recognizing him as God, while John 10:30 has Jesus declaring, "I and my Father are one". Furthermore, Colossians 2:9 says that "in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily".
Verses directly calling Jesus "God" or "Mighty God"

• John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
• John 20:28: Thomas's exclamation to the resurrected Jesus, "My Lord and my God!".
• Titus 2:13: Refers to Jesus as "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ".
• Isaiah 9:6: Predicts the birth of a son who will be called "Mighty God, Everlasting Father".

Verses where Jesus claims deity

• John 10:30: Jesus states, "I and my Father are one," which his listeners understood as a claim to be God, leading them to accuse him of blasphemy.
• John 8:58: Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am," using the divine name of God ("I AM") spoken in Exodus 3:14.
• John 14:9: Jesus tells Philip, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father".

Verses describing Jesus as fully God

• Colossians 2:9: "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily".
• Hebrews 1:3: Describes Jesus as "the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature".

AI

 

[amazing grace]

The point is "our Triune God made us" did make... us not if.

Elohim, translated is the plural divine nature of God. The Hebrew word Elohim is grammatically plural. Three in one.

The Hebrew word 'elohim' can be used grammatically as a singular or a plural dependent upon the verb or adjective used with the noun which determines its singular or plural meaning, so even though the word has a plural form, it's often understood as singular when referring to the God of Israel.

Still didn't answer my question: Then why doesn't Gen. 1:27 say - So we created man in our own image, in our image we created him, male and female we created them.

Or - So Gods (plural elohim) created man in their own image, in the image of Gods they created him; male and female they created them. . . . If you want to claim that elohim is plural in this context then the plurality should be carried throughout.

AND that is not what is written nor what is meant because God is singular here in Genesis 1:27. He was carrying on a conversation with someone other than himself in the previous verse.

 

[Runningman]

God can be called him/he because there is only one God. However, God is a Triune one. Otherwise you have to deny Jesus's pre-existence and all of John 1. It is those features that we have to recognize God is Triune or you just simply deny scriptures. But you seem happy to deny passages.

And that only one God is the Father, YHWH, as the Bible explicitly states. The trinity is not even relevant to the Bible. No one believed in it, no one talked about it. You seem to be almost agreeing with this based on what I've read in some of your other posts. You agree that the trinity was a later development after binitarianism right? Ok, the heresy simply evolved over time.

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus is God. Scripture refers to Jesus as God in various verses, such as Isaiah 9:6 where he is called "Mighty God," and John 1:1 stating, "the Word was God". Other verses, like John 20:28, show the disciples recognizing him as God, while John 10:30 has Jesus declaring, "I and my Father are one". Furthermore, Colossians 2:9 says that "in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily".
Verses directly calling Jesus "God" or "Mighty God"

• John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
• John 20:28: Thomas's exclamation to the resurrected Jesus, "My Lord and my God!".
• Titus 2:13: Refers to Jesus as "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ".
• Isaiah 9:6: Predicts the birth of a son who will be called "Mighty God, Everlasting Father".

Verses where Jesus claims deity

• John 10:30: Jesus states, "I and my Father are one," which his listeners understood as a claim to be God, leading them to accuse him of blasphemy.
• John 8:58: Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am," using the divine name of God ("I AM") spoken in Exodus 3:14.
• John 14:9: Jesus tells Philip, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father".

Verses describing Jesus as fully God

• Colossians 2:9: "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily".
• Hebrews 1:3: Describes Jesus as "the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature".

AI

AI didn't address anything I said?. . . AI must be Trinitarian because as usual a whole list of Trinitarian proof text were used as a response to my post These pop up everywhere and only carry a Trinitarian meaning if you are a Trinitarian!!!
But thanks anyway AI . . . I just don't feel like going through all these again.

 

[Runningman]

It's called a discussion about US, Our. The three that makes up the Trinity actually.

It is simply a literary form similar to what we call the editorial plural or the editorial “we, us, our” which a writer or speaker uses to communicate a point.

The point simply is that our Triune God made us in His... Father, Son. Holy Spirits image.

Let's stick with Scripture and not add to it.

There is an "us" God is said to be with, but they aren't a trinity.

Here's an example.

Psalm 82
1 God presides in the divine assembly;
He renders judgment among the gods:

 

[Runningman]

AI didn't address anything I said?. . . AI must be Trinitarian because as usual a whole list of Trinitarian proof text were used as a response to my post These pop up everywhere and only carry a Trinitarian meaning if you are a Trinitarian!!!
But thanks anyway AI . . . I just don't feel like going through all these again.

People tend to preload their theology, but raw Biblical theology is strict monotheism which aligns extremely close with Biblical Unitarianism. The Bible just doesn't plainly describe God the way trinitarians do. Bottom line is the Bible looks far more Unitarian than Trinitarian.

 

[amazing grace]

Let's stick with Scripture and not add to it.

There is an "us" God is said to be with, but they aren't a trinity.

Here's an example.

Psalm 82
1 God presides in the divine assembly;
He renders judgment among the gods:

Or another example from Job 38 - Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements----surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk or who laid its cornerstone when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? . . . it seems that the angels were in the beginning watching God create!

People tend to preload their theology, but raw Biblical theology is strict monotheism which aligns extremely close with Biblical Unitarianism. The Bible just doesn't plainly describe God the way trinitarians do. Bottom line is the Bible looks far more Unitarian than Trinitarian.

So true.

 

[Blessed]

You shouldn't add to scripture. It doesn't say anything about a trinity in the actual Bible.

You shouldn't subtract from scripture as the Bible is actually written about the Trinity.

 

[mikesw]

And that only one God is the Father, YHWH, as the Bible explicitly states. The trinity is not even relevant to the Bible. No one believed in it, no one talked about it. You seem to be almost agreeing with this based on what I've read in some of your other posts. You agree that the trinity was a later development after binitarianism right? Ok, the heresy simply evolved over time.

People talked about what they saw as the findings, interests, and issues of the day. They do not address every doctrine and idea you want them to cover. The binitarian focus is a point that some people discussed early on. Jesus is the main focus since he died on the cross for our sins.
You are too desperate to defend your heresy.

 

[360watt]

Let's stick with Scripture and not add to it.

There is an "us" God is said to be with, but they aren't a trinity.

Here's an example.

Psalm 82
1 God presides in the divine assembly;
He renders judgment among the gods:

'Gods' here being a reference to magistrates ..mortal men with authority to execute laws

 

[mikesw]

People tend to preload their theology, but raw Biblical theology is strict monotheism which aligns extremely close with Biblical Unitarianism. The Bible just doesn't plainly describe God the way trinitarians do. Bottom line is the Bible looks far more Unitarian than Trinitarian.

You cannot deny the Triune God from strict monotheism. You are too devoted to deny God and Christ.

 

[Aeliana]

I just don't feel like going through all these again.

I know the truth hurts but you will get over it. Jesus is God.

John 1:1–3 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. He was present originally with God. All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

John 10:30 I and the Father are One.

John 8:58 Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

Col 2:9 For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].

Heb 1:3 He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God’s] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,

Phil 2:5–6 Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,

John 20:28 Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!

Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.

Titus 2:13 Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),

John 1:14 And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth.

Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and as far as His natural descent was concerned, from them is the Christ, Who is exalted and supreme over all, God, blessed forever! Amen (so let it be).

1 John 5:20 And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.

Heb 1:8 But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).

John 14:9 Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the Father?

Col 1:15–17 [Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation. For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him. And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together).

Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, says the Lord God, He Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty (the Ruler of all).

John 5:18 This made the Jews more determined than ever to kill Him [to do away with Him]; because He not only was breaking (weakening, violating) the Sabbath, but He actually was speaking of God as being [in a special sense] His own Father, making Himself equal [putting Himself on a level] with God.

2 Pet 1:1 SIMON PETER, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

Matt 1:23 Behold, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel—which, when translated, means, God with us.

The Bible

 

[mikesw]

Is there scholarly argument about this verse 2 Cor. 5:19?

ESV -- that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
KJV -- To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
NASB -- namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
NIV -- that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Seems pretty clear to me: God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

That is the problem. Things seem clear to you as you deny the options of the meaning. There indeed is scholarly argument about the verse.
The more broader scripture would say that reconciling the world by Christ as the avenue of reconciling is the focus. This passage is not emphasizing the incarnation of God in Christ, even though your proposal of that might still be worth considering.
The other alternative of God being in God would be redundant.

Doesn't match the passage? Was God in Christ as per 2 Cor. 5:19? Is Christ in us as per Colossians 1:27?
Then why wouldn't God in Christ be in us when we receive the gift of holy spirit - via born again aka the new birth, the new creation, the new man, the inner man, etc. --- which is how we now walk by the spirit and not the flesh.

Why bring the Holy Spirit within the Trinity as part of your argument now? You are conflating passages that are not related. But it is okay to recognize that Christ is God such that Col 1:27 can reflect that too.

That's fine eisegesis . . .My Bible doesn't specify a difference:
For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. . . . . And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. . . . . I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” [John 17:8,11,20-23,26]

And there we also have God in Christ Christ in us = God in Christ in us!!

That is great eisegesis again. You are conflating ideas and does not make the point you are trying to force.

See, that's the problem - Believing that Jesus is God - reading "I and the Father are one" to mean "Jesus is God" - you cannot believe what is plainly written in other parts of scripture. Jesus and his Father are one in purpose and mission - keeping the 'sheep' for the coming Kingdom. We are to be one in purpose and mission with Jesus and his Father - bringing people into the Kingdom, reconciling people to God in Christ's stead (gathering the sheep). The harvest is plenty . . .

Really? You are exalting yourself to know end. that is why your doctrine is harmful.

 

[civic]

so now you claim to be included within the Shema (Deut 6:4) just as Jesus is. But to do anything you would first need to enter through the door --who is Christ.

the audacity to think I'm personally one with the Father in the same way the Son is one with the Father.

YIKES- thats pretty scary and is idolatry and blasphemy.

 

[mikesw]

the audacity to think I'm personally one with the Father in the same way the Son is one with the Father.

YIKES- thats pretty scary and is idolatry and blasphemy.

It is the unitarian's self-exaltation while trying to force the scriptures to comply with their concepts. If Jesus had meant to include other people in being one with the Father, that passage would have been saying "that you be one with me and the Father."
The unitarians always diminish Christ and exalt themselves. I think the problem could be related to them on the autism scale which, like Sheldon, can miss metaphor, humor, and other common word concepts that other people recognize.

 

[Runningman]

'Gods' here being a reference to magistrates ..mortal men with authority to execute laws

Exactly, no mention of a trinity in view yet again.

 

[Runningman]

You cannot deny the Triune God from strict monotheism. You are too devoted to deny God and Christ.

Strict monotheism is a one person God, just as the Bible says. The trinity is essentially polytheistic since it contains more than one person. "God" isn't a status shared with others.

 

[Runningman]

People talked about what they saw as the findings, interests, and issues of the day. They do not address every doctrine and idea you want them to cover. The binitarian focus is a point that some people discussed early on. Jesus is the main focus since he died on the cross for our sins.
You are too desperate to defend your heresy.

You seem to think others are here to entertain you and your beliefs, sorry, but that's not the case. Maybe some others will tickle your ears, but I am going to give you what the Bible says about straight. No compromises.

 

[mikesw]

Strict monotheism is a one person God, just as the Bible says. The trinity is essentially polytheistic since it contains more than one person. "God" isn't a status shared with others.

There you go. You just cannot stop using words that are not in the Bible when you try to describe God. THe ideas of monotheism and polytheism were more of a discussion in the 1600s and beyond. However, God is not forced into your definition of monotheism as if you define his essence by your words. I guess that is another thing that makes unitarianism so wrong.