All Claims of The Son's Deity

[amazing grace]

It is good you ask the question. Yes. You are confused since you do not understand scripture. Why do you create a god in man's image? The scripture testifies that Jesus is Yahweh. It is just whether you accept it even though it is not your logic.

So I guess the answer to my question >>>> Do you not hear how illogical that sounds? ---- 'the Son of God is still Yahweh along with his Father' ---- You have the Son as Almighty God along with the Son's Father who is also God is >>>> 'whether I accept it even though it is not MY logic' . . . IMO - not really an answer but about what I expected.

You believe scripture testifies that Jesus is Yahweh so there you go - Why do you create a god in man's image?
I do not believe the scripture testifies that Jesus Christ is Yahweh therefore, I am not the one who created a god in man's image.

That is so neglectful of prophecy. You do not understand that Joel 2:32 is fulfilled in Christ Jesus,Yahweh. So you either are confused or you reject God's prophecy.

I see where Joel 2:32 is referencing Yahweh in whom the OT believers called on.
Romans 10:13 referencing, in keeping with context, the Lord Jesus Christ in whom NT believers called on ---- Paul now attributes to Jesus who is the Lord who we are to confess and believe that God raised him from the dead (Rom. 10:9,10) . . . To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: . . .

Okay. So you recognize the virgin birth of the Divine Son in Gen 3:15 but then deny it. You recognize some prophecy but you reject others. That is what the Pharisees did too.

I recognize the miraculous conception of the offspring of the woman in Gen. 3:15.

there you go again. You deny anthropomorphic viewing of God and then share a half-truth that God is not a man as if that denies that God the Son can incarnate. Then you repeat the confusion over and over and over again as if the repetition makes your confusion into the truth. You might as well deny the Word of God as being God and distinct also in Gen 15:1-5 and similar situations throughout scripture. There is too much denial or neglect in the unitarian view.

Oh yea, the distinct person called the 'word of the Lord' . . . the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, all that means is that Yahweh spoke to Abram a vision . . . “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” NOT A DISTINCT PERSON . . .

Actually, I see it the other way around . . . there is more denial in the Trinitarian view.

 

[Runningman]

The point is there's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. That's the point and that's the subject that is being debated. I said there's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. And then someone said there was and that it was in Joel and Romans. Then I said there's nothing in Joel or Romans that says that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

cc: @Runningman

I agree. On the other hand, knowing the Father is the only true God is required. Having many persons who are god is called idolatry according to the Bible. Salvation also requires believing God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9,10) and believing Him who sent Jesus. Trinitarians flirt with idolatry because they say a trinity raised Jesus and that a trinity sent Jesus and that a trinity is God.

John 5
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

 

[mikesw]

So I guess the answer to my question >>>> Do you not hear how illogical that sounds? ---- 'the Son of God is still Yahweh along with his Father' ---- You have the Son as Almighty God along with the Son's Father who is also God is >>>> 'whether I accept it even though it is not MY logic' . . . IMO - not really an answer but about what I expected.

Again you pretend that God is limited to what you perceive about him. You either have to suggest that Jesus is a separate god or is of the same God as the Father, or you just reject scripture.
I'm sorry if you expected the truth to be shared by me even though you do not accept the truth. You have a pre-existent Jesus who does not have pre-existence. You have a Jesus that John identifies as God but you have a Jesus that is not God.

You believe scripture testifies that Jesus is Yahweh so there you go - Why do you create a god in man's image?

Wow. You give me credit where none is possible. I did not create Jesus. God sent the Son incarnate. I'm flattered that you think I have so much power but I prefer the Son that God sent.

I do not believe the scripture testifies that Jesus Christ is Yahweh therefore, I am not the one who created a god in man's image.

You pushed God only into being a man among us. You do therefore diminish who Jesus is and view him as mere man.

I see where Joel 2:32 is referencing Yahweh in whom the OT believers called on.

That was Jesus in Acts 2. Remember how the prophecy is about Jesus.

Romans 10:13 referencing, in keeping with context, the Lord Jesus Christ in whom NT believers called on ---- Paul now attributes to Jesus who is the Lord who we are to confess and believe that God raised him from the dead (Rom. 10:9,10) . . . To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: . . .

Again the prophecy is that God is the one they call upon. You again reject prophecy fulfillment

I recognize the miraculous conception of the offspring of the woman in Gen. 3:15.

Oh yea, the distinct person called the 'word of the Lord' . . . the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, all that means is that Yahweh spoke to Abram a vision . . . “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” NOT A DISTINCT PERSON . . .

Actually, I see it the other way around . . . there is more denial in the Trinitarian view.

You miss the unusual aspect shown in Gen 15:1-5 which reflects your superficial approach to it.

 

[mikesw]

The Apostle Peter said...

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16)

And Jesus said you got that right. (Matthew 16:17)

Funny how you start with Jesus as the Son of God and then take that away from him to make him a mere man so he no longer is the only Son of God.

I think what it all comes down to is that Christians believe (like the Apostle Peter) that Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

That is more or less correct.

The Trinitarians believe... that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord God, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Himself from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It seems you do not comprehend the discussion. That can happen, especially when someone does not know the nature of Christ. You accidentally (or happily?) twist the words. The passage speak of salvation happening to those who call on the name of Yahweh (the Lord, Jesus) in this context. It is common for unitarians to misconstrue the discussion and scripture. It is a new doctrine of denial of the divinity of Christ so indeed the loose ends are not tied up and expectedly never will be.

 

[amazing grace]

Again you pretend that God is limited to what you perceive about him. You either have to suggest that Jesus is a separate god or is of the same God as the Father, or you just reject scripture.

Jesus is the Son of God - God is his God - God is his Father - that is acceptance of scripture.

I'm sorry if you expected the truth to be shared by me even though you do not accept the truth. You have a pre-existent Jesus who does not have pre-existence. You have a Jesus that John identifies as God but you have a Jesus that is not God.

My Jesus preexisted in the mind of God his Father along with the plan put forth in Gen. 3:15.
John does not identify Jesus as God but states that the following was the purpose of his gospel . . . 'but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.' [John 20:31]

Wow. You give me credit where none is possible. I did not create Jesus. God sent the Son incarnate. I'm flattered that you think I have so much power but I prefer the Son that God sent.

You pushed God only into being a man among us. You do therefore diminish who Jesus is and view him as mere man.

I have not pushed God into being the man, Jesus Christ because I do not believe God to be a man; nor do I push the man, Jesus Christ into being God because they are neither. God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the only Son of God the Father.

That was Jesus in Acts 2. Remember how the prophecy is about Jesus.
Again the prophecy is that God is the one they call upon. You again reject prophecy fulfillment

You miss the unusual aspect shown in Gen 15:1-5 which reflects your superficial approach to it.

We were addressing Romans 10:13.

There is no unusual aspect of 'the word of the LORD came' in Gen. 15:1-5 - God was speaking to Abram. In each example of 'the word of the LORD came' it is God speaking to that person.
The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night. . . . God was speaking to Samuel.
And when David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the Lord, Three things I offer you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’” . . . God was speaking to the prophet Gad. ETC.

 

[101G]

You either have a Jesus w/ Schizophrenia (delusional), or a Jesus w/ Dissociative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities).
Any true Christian knows that Jesus Christ clearly was not talking to Himself, 101G.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Genesis 1:26-27

only one person made man male and female in the beginning.

"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Genesis 11:7

Notice how God is referring to Himself in a plural sense in Genesis 1:26-27; 11:7?

Genesis 11:5 "And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded." Genesis 11:6 "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." Genesis 11:7 "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:8 "So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."

come on V ... Oh my, READ, only the LORD came down, ONE PERSON. as in Genesis 1:26, one person for Genesis 1:27 confirms this. V, V, V, God when speaking in plural is speaking from the end... Listen and learn, Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me," Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Declaring the end from the beginning? Oh my, my, my, V are you really understanding God speech? ... all time, past, present, and future are the same to God.

Paul warns we could have another Jesus, another spirit, if we're not careful.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
2 Corinthians 11:3-4

101G speak of the same and ONLY "ONE", Jesus who is Lord, and is G243 Allos of himself.

V, 101G cannot believe you don't know this. ... Oh well.

101G.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus is the Son of God - God is his God - God is his Father - that is acceptance of scripture.

Right. But people still deny Jesus's divinity and especially denying that by rejecting true pre-existence

My Jesus preexisted in the mind of God his Father along with the plan put forth in Gen. 3:15.
John does not identify Jesus as God but states that the following was the purpose of his gospel . . . 'but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.' [John 20:31]

That is a perfect way to gloss over true pre-existence of Jesus and reject so many passages. Paul points out the promise to Abraham was also to Jesus in Gal 3:16. It was not only a promise to send Jesus but also was a promise to Jesus to be sent. That does not happen to someone who does not exist.

I have not pushed God into being the man, Jesus Christ because I do not believe God to be a man; nor do I push the man, Jesus Christ into being God because they are neither. God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the only Son of God the Father.

No one believes God to be a man. Scripture shows that God became incarnate. It is your confusion that leads you to misconstrue Jesus. Then you go again and show the divinity of Jesus with the recognition of Jesus as the Son of God. Your forgetfulness is from one sentence to another.
It is the example of the multiple persons as all being Yahweh in the OT that is continued with Jesus also being Yahweh. That is not something easily missed.

We were addressing Romans 10:13.

There is no unusual aspect of 'the word of the LORD came' in Gen. 15:1-5 - God was speaking to Abram. In each example of 'the word of the LORD came' it is God speaking to that person.
The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night. . . . God was speaking to Samuel.
And when David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the Lord, Three things I offer you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’” . . . God was speaking to the prophet Gad. ETC.

You are changing to different passages instead of showing how the Word of Yahweh was distinct from Yahweh but was recognized as Yahweh. I would rather work with scripture than with your forgetfulness of such details as in Gen 15:1-5

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is the Son of God - God is his God - God is his Father - that is acceptance of scripture.

My Jesus preexisted in the mind of God his Father along with the plan put forth in Gen. 3:15.
John does not identify Jesus as God but states that the following was the purpose of his gospel . . . 'but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.' [John 20:31]

I have not pushed God into being the man, Jesus Christ because I do not believe God to be a man; nor do I push the man, Jesus Christ into being God because they are neither. God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the only Son of God the Father.

We were addressing Romans 10:13.

There is no unusual aspect of 'the word of the LORD came' in Gen. 15:1-5 - God was speaking to Abram. In each example of 'the word of the LORD came' it is God speaking to that person.
The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night. . . . God was speaking to Samuel.
And when David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the Lord, Three things I offer you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’” . . . God was speaking to the prophet Gad. ETC.

Sometimes they forgot that Romans 10:9 is still there which sets the precedent that Jesus isn't God. There is Jesus and God who raised him because since God raised Jesus then Jesus is not the same as God. Probably why there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that says Jesus raised or resurrected himself.

 

[amazing grace]

Right. But people still deny Jesus's divinity and especially denying that by rejecting true pre-existence

That is a perfect way to gloss over true pre-existence of Jesus and reject so many passages. Paul points out the promise to Abraham was also to Jesus in Gal 3:16. It was not only a promise to send Jesus but also was a promise to Jesus to be sent. That does not happen to someone who does not exist.

There are two types of preexistence - literal and notional. I believe in notional preexistence as in the foreknowledge of God.
What was the promise in Galatians 3?
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith . . . For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Therefore, the promise is that believers, including Gentiles, can become heirs to God's inheritance through faith in Jesus Christ, who is also a recipient of the promise. . . we are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. [Rom. 8:17]

No one believes God to be a man. Scripture shows that God became incarnate. It is your confusion that leads you to misconstrue Jesus. Then you go again and show the divinity of Jesus with the recognition of Jesus as the Son of God. Your forgetfulness is from one sentence to another.
It is the example of the multiple persons as all being Yahweh in the OT that is continued with Jesus also being Yahweh. That is not something easily missed.

If no one believes God to be a man, then how is Jesus God? Doesn't God incarnate = God in the flesh = man?
Jesus, being the Son of God does not make him God.
You are good at twisting people's words and intentions.

You are changing to different passages instead of showing how the Word of Yahweh was distinct from Yahweh but was recognized as Yahweh. I would rather work with scripture than with your forgetfulness of such details as in Gen 15:1-5

Acts 2 was never discussed with me - I went back and looked - that passage was brought up between you and Runningman.
Our discussion has been in reference to Romans 10:13 so I haven't switched to different passages with you.

Also, I have discussed Gen. 15:1-5 and haven't changed my position in each post regarding that section of scripture.
In fact, I posted other scripture in which the same phrase 'the word of the LORD came' as reference for it's meaning - it's just God speaking.

 

[amazing grace]

Sometimes they forgot that Romans 10:9 is still there which sets the precedent that Jesus isn't God. There is Jesus and God who raised him because since God raised Jesus then Jesus is not the same as God. Probably why there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that says Jesus raised or resurrected himself.

Besides Romans 10:9,10 is the context in which Romans 10:13 is . . . confess Jesus is Lord and call upon the name of the Lord in the same context shows that in the NT we are to call upon the name of Jesus.

 

[Victoria]

only one person made man male and female in the beginning.

Correct, 101G... the Word of God, which is Jesus Christ, mentioned in John 1:1-4; 14.

Genesis 11:5 "And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded." Genesis 11:6 "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." Genesis 11:7 "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:8 "So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."

come on V ... Oh my, READ, only the LORD came down, ONE PERSON.

Correct again, 101G. Here are two more examples of Jesus Christ pre-incarnate:

Jacob Wrestles
(Genesis 32:24-30)

"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;
and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:25

as in Genesis 1:26, one person for Genesis 1:27 confirms this. V, V, V, God when speaking in plural is speaking from the end... Listen and learn, Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me," Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Declaring the end from the beginning? Oh my, my, my, V are you really understanding God speech? ... all time, past, present, and future are the same to God.

101G speak of the same and ONLY "ONE", Jesus who is Lord, and is G243 Allos of himself.

V, 101G cannot believe you don't know this. ... Oh well.

101G.

A God that talks to Himself makes absolutely no sense. To me, that only brings confusion. I honestly believe it's man's attempt to fully understand the Godhead, which is impossible, this side of eternity. As long as person believes Jesus Christ is God, & believes the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13-14)... that's most important.

Are you suggesting that Jesus was a ventriloquist at the Transfiguration???

"While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,
This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Matthew 17:5

I'm sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[civic]

Besides Romans 10:9,10 is the context in which Romans 10:13 is . . . confess Jesus is Lord and call upon the name of the Lord in the same context shows that in the NT we are to call upon the name of Jesus.

Besides Lord in Romans 10:9-13 means YHWH. To call upon the name of YHWH / Lord.

No confessing Jesus as Lord/ YHWH is salvific according to Paul in Romans 10.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

Besides Romans 10:9,10 is the context in which Romans 10:13 is . . . confess Jesus is Lord and call upon the name of the Lord in the same context shows that in the NT we are to call upon the name of Jesus.

I will only add that Jesus isn't the same Lord as the one who sent him. Sometimes it isn't always super clear, but there is a good example in Acts 3 that helps guide what I believe.

Acts 3
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

And that same Jesus Christ is a prophet like Moses who speaks on behalf of God and by the authority of God, but not as God Himself.

 

[Victoria]

Jesus is different from God in a lot of ways. They don't share around a dozen or so names/titles. They don't have all of the same attributes, etc.

Different in how Jesus Christ stepped down from His throne in heaven, put on human flesh, humbled Himself, dwelt among His creation to relate w/ us, & paid the sin dept we could never pay ourselves. God loved us that much, that He died on that cross so that we could be reconciled back unto Him. The greatest love story of all time!

No one but God Himself can clean up the rebellious mess Satan started, & humanity followed in.

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." Matthew 1:23

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."
1 John 3:16

 

[Victoria]

I didn't say the angels had any hand in the actual creating/creation. But as Job records they were there ---- they were who God spoke to ---- 'Let us make' but it was God who created man in his own image --- God ALONE did the creating.

amazing grace, that's exactly what you were implying

"Let us make" therefore means, by your interpretation, angels participated in God's creation of man.

Again, like the Jews in the book of John there is that theme of misunderstanding . . . I did not say anything about Jesus redeeming angels.
Oh ---- 'two things that are different cannot be the same' then why do you have God as Spirit and God as a man; why do you have a Father and a Son the same being?

No, I certainly don't believe the apostles were at all confused when they wrote about Jesus Christ being God.
John 1:1-4; 14; 1 John 3:16 <--- especially the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Oh really? That is a total lie . . . Read Romans 5 --- a man brought about the judgment of sin and death through his act of disobedience; a man brought about righteousness and justification through his act of obedience. If God believed that His Son qualified to die for the sins of humanity - then His Son is good enough for me! For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Well, you certainly have an uphill battle, amazing grace.

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

The #1 indicator of cults = Jesus isn't God

 

[civic]

amazing grace, that's exactly what you were implying

"Let us make" therefore means, by your interpretation, angels participated in God's creation of man.

No, I certainly don't believe the apostles were at all confused when they wrote about Jesus Christ being God.
John 1:1-4; 14; 1 John 3:16 <--- especially the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Well, you certainly have an uphill battle, amazing grace.

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

The #1 indicator of cults = Jesus isn't God

Amen !!!

 

[amazing grace]

Besides Lord in Romans 10:9-13 means YHWH. To call upon the name of YHWH / Lord.

No confessing Jesus as Lord/ YHWH is salvific according to Paul in Romans 10.

hope this helps !!!

I like to keep things within context and within that context Lord refers to Jesus.

So, nope doesn't help!

 

[mikesw]

There are two types of preexistence - literal and notional. I believe in notional preexistence as in the foreknowledge of God.
What was the promise in Galatians 3?
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith . . . For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Therefore, the promise is that believers, including Gentiles, can become heirs to God's inheritance through faith in Jesus Christ, who is also a recipient of the promise. . . we are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. [Rom. 8:17]

Uh. Preexistence is a literal concept. Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am." Gal 3:16 turns out to be literal and is proven that way with Gal 3:19-20. There are group representations that are not identified with specific names such as the nations being blessed through Abraham's seed. So you have a limited concept correct. But you are using the group representations to deny the divinity of Christ. You turn the testimony of scripture upside down.

If no one believes God to be a man, then how is Jesus God? Doesn't God incarnate = God in the flesh = man?
Jesus, being the Son of God does not make him God.
You are good at twisting people's words and intentions.

uh. Maybe you have an alternative meaning for theos here. Maybe you mean it to be chance. You have to deny that Jesus is the only Son of God (John 3:16). Maybe you just mean he is the only son of chance or that "only son" means just a man. Although, you cannot explain God incarnate, that does not mean your denials of it make sense.
You are right that being the Son of God does not make him God. He is pre-existing as God such that he is not made into anything but flesh without giving up being God.
If I am twisting your words, it is because they already are twisted.

Acts 2 was never discussed with me - I went back and looked - that passage was brought up between you and Runningman.
Our discussion has been in reference to Romans 10:13 so I haven't switched to different passages with you.

Also, I have discussed Gen. 15:1-5 and haven't changed my position in each post regarding that section of scripture.
In fact, I posted other scripture in which the same phrase 'the word of the LORD came' as reference for it's meaning - it's just God speaking.

I am not quite expecting to change your view. You are in too great of denial. God still can correct your thinking despite the hole you have dug.

 

[civic]

I like to keep things within context and within that context Lord refers to Jesus.

So, nope doesn't help!

And the Lord one must confess to be saved as per Joel 2:32 is YHWH. Paul says Jesus is YHWH of Joel 2:32 that must be confessed to be saved.

 

[amazing grace]

amazing grace, that's exactly what you were implying

"Let us make" therefore means, by your interpretation, angels participated in God's creation of man.

I didn't say the angels had any hand in the actual creating/creation. But as Job records they were there ---- they were who God spoke to ---- 'Let us make' but it was God who created man in his own image --- God ALONE did the creating.

I am sorry that you cannot comprehend what I am saying.

No, I certainly don't believe the apostles were at all confused when they wrote about Jesus Christ being God.
John 1:1-4; 14; 1 John 3:16 <--- especially the disciple whom Jesus loved.

John 1:1-14 is about the word . . . the word became flesh and dwelt among us.
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 1 John 3:16 - isn't saying Jesus is God . . . God couldn't lay down his life for us; He is an immortal being.
What Peter confessed about Jesus is recorded in Matthew 16:16 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. [also Mark 8:28,29; Luke 9:19,20]
No one even made the assumption that Jesus was God. The same in John - John's purpose statement for his gospel:
'but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.' [John 20:31]

Well, you certainly have an uphill battle, amazing grace.

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

I have an uphill battle from Romans 5 and John 3:16? . . . don't think so.

Well, thank God that I have not cursed Jesus and I am able to say Jesus is Lord by the spirit of God dwelling in me. Amen!

Oh really? That is a total lie . . . Read Romans 5 --- a man brought about the judgment of sin and death through his act of disobedience; a man brought about righteousness and justification through his act of obedience. If God believed that His Son qualified to die for the sins of humanity - then His Son is good enough for me! For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The #1 indicator of cults = Jesus isn't God