All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Runningman]

Real Christians do not need to debate since they know the Triune God. you provide a novel, odd, unorthodox, neglectful, ahistorical doctrine and use that to dissuade people from orthodox understanding. Mind you, if you were just curious and exploring a path but were not pushing a heretical doctrine, you maybe would be better situated. It is possible you too are a Christian but you are pushing the outer bounds of Christianity. Those beliefs tend to distort other doctrines too.

You don't know a triune god and a triune god doesn't know you. According to Scripture, all gods aside from the Father (YHWH) are false gods or no God at all. Scripture teaches that a trinity god is fake. I am going with the Bible, don't blame me for what the Bible teaches. Do better Mike.

You seem to forget what we have shown you in the Bible repeatedly. Just going to keep reminding you until it sinks in.

John 17
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Corinthians 8
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jeremiah 10
10But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

11Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

 

[Runningman]

Your complaint is against God's action and scripture being unclear to you. It is odd because you know about humanity and you know about God the Father yet you do not understand God the Son so then you deny Christ of Christianity. You are the one trying to prove against the testimony of the Triune God found in scripture and you cannot even find grounds to deny the pre-existence of Christ. Instead you just say that is not normal. Duh. Miracles are the same. The stand out because they are not normal events. Neither is God incarnate a typical event. It is a one time situation. You cannot seem to comprehend that so you find everything you can to try to deny what Jesus did. So you depend on your private novel interpretation and think everyone should be convinced by the half-truths you share.

You have a god that no one in the Old or New Testament wrote anything about. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Runningman]

It is insane that you see Jesus as a false teacher. This point from Peter is not saying that the orthodox teachings of Christ and upheld by so many of the early church writers are all false teachings. Your confusion is evident.

You should leave Jesus out of your church for he is not a heretic nor agreed with any of your teachings.

 

[Runningman]

Eusebius of Caesarea (260/265AD – 339 AD) – Matthew 28:19

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. In this particular section of his book he was addressing people that claim Jesus used sorcery to perform his miracles, and in his argument he quoted Mathew 28:19 below.

He quotes Mathew 28:19 "Go and make disciples of all nations in My Name." Interesting that he doesn't say baptize, nor does he mention the trinity or a threesome of any kind.

View attachment 2446

Eusebius possibly had access to a manuscript that has since been lost to time. Provided his rank an status in the church, what Matthew 28:19 says would have been pretty easy quote correctly. That alone is evidence that there may have been other versions of the Matthew 28 around. Given how many manuscript variations there are already, it wouldn't be surprising.

 

[mikesw]

Joel 3:5 that you mention above does not says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

Joel 3:5
Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

oops. I am not sure how I got that chapter and verse.
The one that Rom 10:13 quotes is Joe 2:32.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

So LORD in Rom 10:13 is Yahweh. THere just is not a Greek word to distinguish Yahweh here.

 

[Runningman]

oops. I am not sure how I got that chapter and verse.
The one that Rom 10:13 quotes is Joe 2:32.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

So LORD in Rom 10:13 is Yahweh. THere just is not a Greek word to distinguish Yahweh here.

What you have done is a mistake that only someone unlearned in Scripture would make.

In Romans 10:11, Paul said what Scripture says: "For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Since Paul quoted Scripture, we can actually look at what he quoted from Scripture. Paul quoted Isaiah 28:16 that says "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."

And that precious cornerstone that was laid in Zion is not YHWH. Rather YHWH laid a "cornerstone" where it previously was not. The cornerstone is Jesus. Now we have a proper beginning to understand that Paul didn't believe Jesus is YHWH or God incarnate, but rather a human. A good study for you would be Acts to get a proper foundation about how Jesus is not God nor was believed to be God by the apostles or anyone in the early church.

When you get to Romans 10:13, we already know Paul isn't talking about calling on Jesus to be saved. Here's another quote of the same Scripture from Acts where it's clear that YHWH and Jesus aren't the same person.

The Lord we call on to be saved is God (YHWH) and Jesus is a man approved by God (YHWH) and used for miracle working by God (YHWH.)

Acts 2
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

 

[mikesw]

What you have done is a mistake that only someone unlearned in Scripture would make.

In Romans 10:11, Paul said what Scripture says: "For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Since Paul quoted Scripture, we can actually look at what he quoted from Scripture. Paul quoted Isaiah 28:16 that says "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."

And that precious cornerstone that was laid in Zion is not YHWH. Rather YHWH laid a "cornerstone" where it previously was not. The cornerstone is Jesus. Now we have a proper beginning to understand that Paul didn't believe Jesus is YHWH or God incarnate, but rather a human. A good study for you would be Acts to get a proper foundation about how Jesus is not God nor was believed to be God by the apostles or anyone in the early church.

When you get to Romans 10:13, we already know Paul isn't talking about calling on Jesus to be saved. Here's another quote of the same Scripture from Acts where it's clear that YHWH and Jesus aren't the same person.

Maybe you have heard of the Father and the Son. You have no ability to comprehend the scriptures yet you try so hard to distort or confuse scriptures. The Son is of the Godhead incarnate laid in Zion by the Father of the Godhead. I see how you get confused but it is not an issue when we recognize the two persons both designated Yahweh. That has been an issue identified among Jews that is called the Two Powers of Heaven. At times you try to speak of a problem of two gods, as if you were thinking in polytheistic terms in the discussions and now you speak in the Oneness perception that follows a modalistic heresy. You do this while following a unitarian heresy. That is pretty wild that you can cover the whole range of heresies in one response.

The Lord we call on to be saved is God (YHWH) and Jesus is a man approved by God (YHWH) and used for miracle working by God (YHWH.)

Acts 2
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

You may have heard of the Father and the Son. It appears in scriptures a couple times along with the divinity of Jesus IN THE GODHEAD (shared in caps for the forgetful[?] unitarians). We would not expect the Son of God to be rejected because he also was among them in flesh. But unitarians cannot keep scripture coordinated.

 

[mikesw]

You should leave Jesus out of your church for he is not a heretic nor agreed with any of your teachings.

I will keep trusting Jesus over against what a unitarian claims. The unitarians keep getting confused. We just saw where a post by a unitarian thinks of one passage in a Oneness Modalistic heresy and thus rejects the actual meaning of the passage toward the Trinitarian perception. The unitarians keep falling into a hyperliteralist interpretation and cannot recognize nuances in scripture.

 

[amazing grace]

oops. I am not sure how I got that chapter and verse.
The one that Rom 10:13 quotes is Joe 2:32.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

So LORD in Rom 10:13 is Yahweh. THere just is not a Greek word to distinguish Yahweh here.

Nope, the Lord in Rom. 1:13 is not Yahweh . . . . "But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the Word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says,, "Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Context is the key ---- context is the Lord Jesus Christ ---- he came in the name of Yahweh. He carries all the authority of his Father.

 

[mikesw]

Nope, the Lord in Rom. 1:13 is not Yahweh . . . . "But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the Word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says,, "Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Context is the key ---- context is the Lord Jesus Christ ---- he came in the name of Yahweh. He carries all the authority of his Father.

That is off. The scripture behind Rom 10:13 is fully valid which is Joel 2:32 (ESV)
32And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

To skip Joel 2:32 is to remove the prophetic element that gives Roman 10 it significance. You do not just pretend the prophets don't have relevance because it messes up your unitarian concept. You would just be removing all that God had done in the past to prepare people for the time of Christ. But that could be the goal of unitarianism.

 

[Runningman]

That is off. The scripture behind Rom 10:13 is fully valid which is Joel 2:32 (ESV)
32And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

To skip Joel 2:32 is to remove the prophetic element that gives Roman 10 it significance. You do not just pretend the prophets don't have relevance because it messes up your unitarian concept. You would just be removing all that God had done in the past to prepare people for the time of Christ. But that could be the goal of unitarianism.

Jesus Christ didn't exist when Joel wrote that. Jesus is a man, not God, in the full context.

Acts 2
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

 

[mikesw]

Jesus Christ didn't exist when Joel wrote that. Jesus is a man, not God, in the full context.

Acts 2
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

You actually do not think Yahweh existed when Joel 2:32 made the prophecy that was being shared as the time of fulfillment in Acts 2:21-22. The incarnation did not have to happen in Joel's time. It only had to happen with the incarnation of the Son of God through Mary. I'm glad I can help you understand that.

 

[Victoria]

Sure Jesus the Christ is the ONLY PERSON in the Godhead. THIMK, are we not in Christ?

You either have a Jesus w/ Schizophrenia (delusional), or a Jesus w/ Dissociative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities).
Any true Christian knows that Jesus Christ clearly was not talking to Himself, 101G.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Genesis 1:26-27

"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Genesis 11:7

Notice how God is referring to Himself in a plural sense in Genesis 1:26-27; 11:7?

Here below, Jesus is conversing w/ His Father, not w/ Himself.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father,
glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
John 17:3-5

remember, 1 Timothy 6:16 is speaking of only ONE PERSON... 1. remaining, i.e. sole or single. .... so where are your so-called other two persons?

101G.

Paul warns we could have another Jesus, another spirit, if we're not careful.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
2 Corinthians 11:3-4

 

[amazing grace]

That is off. The scripture behind Rom 10:13 is fully valid which is Joel 2:32 (ESV)
32And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

To skip Joel 2:32 is to remove the prophetic element that gives Roman 10 it significance. You do not just pretend the prophets don't have relevance because it messes up your unitarian concept. You would just be removing all that God had done in the past to prepare people for the time of Christ. But that could be the goal of unitarianism.

Who has said we should skip Joel 2:32? Who has said we should just pretend the prophets don't have relevance? OT scripture is brought into the NT in relevance to Christ. It doesn't mean that Christ is God.
The OT believers called upon the name of Yahweh - we call upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

Isn't the context of Romans 10:8-13 --- Jesus Christ? So, you are wrong in your assessment.

 

[Runningman]

You actually do not think Yahweh existed when Joel 2:32 made the prophecy that was being shared as the time of fulfillment in Acts 2:21-22. The incarnation did not have to happen in Joel's time. It only had to happen with the incarnation of the Son of God through Mary. I'm glad I can help you understand that.

YHWH is God we call on to be saved. Jesus is a man. Men aren't God which is why Acts 2:21,22 says Jesus is a man approved by God. Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 explicitly state YHWH is not a man. Therefore we don't call on Jesus to be saved... the Bible never says "call on Jesus to be saved" but rather "call on the name of the Lord to be saved" and that Lord in the context is YHWH. Not the same person as Jesus nor do they have the same name. The Lord sent Jesus per Acts 3:20, Jesus is the servant of the Lord per Acts 3:13, etc. I hope that helps you.

Jesus is exhaustively proven to not be YHWH throughout Scripture. Several explicit examples of this. Hebrews 1 is a great example and so is Acts 3. I am convinced you have been tremendously deceived so try to read the context without your trinitarian goggles on.

 

[amazing grace]

You either have a Jesus w/ Schizophrenia (delusional), or a Jesus w/ Dissociative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities).
Any true Christian knows that Jesus Christ clearly was not talking to Himself, 101G.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Genesis 1:26-27

"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Genesis 11:7

Notice how God is referring to Himself in a plural sense in Genesis 1:26-27; 11:7?

God is not talking to himself or the other two beings within himself - 'Let us' . . . He is conversing with his heavenly court, his angels . . . who were there with him in the beginning.
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here below, Jesus is conversing w/ His Father, not w/ Himself.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father,
glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
John 17:3-5

What is life eternal? knowing the only true God AND Jesus Christ whom God his Father has sent.
Jesus was praying for the glory promised to him before the foundation of the world which existed with His Father to be given to him when he finished the work that God gave him to do.

Paul warns we could have another Jesus, another spirit, if we're not careful.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
2 Corinthians 11:3-4

Yeah, another Jesus whom Paul and the apostles did not preach or another gospel they did not preach and they did not preach that Jesus was God but that he was the Messiah, the Lord's Christ.

 

[mikesw]

Who has said we should skip Joel 2:32? Who has said we should just pretend the prophets don't have relevance? OT scripture is brought into the NT in relevance to Christ. It doesn't mean that Christ is God.
The OT believers called upon the name of Yahweh - we call upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

Isn't the context of Romans 10:8-13 --- Jesus Christ? So, you are wrong in your assessment.

I suppose I could see how you get confused. You do not realize that God exists in a triune sense so you cannot understand where the Son of God is still Yahweh along with his Father. So it is not the people calling on just a man. It is people calling on Yahweh who has been in their midst through incarnation that we know is Jesus. The related problem is you cannot recognize that God fulfills prophecy in surprising fashions that still uphold his faithfulness. Stop reducing God down to pure anthropomorphic conception.

 

[mikesw]

YHWH is God we call on to be saved. Jesus is a man. Men aren't God which is why Acts 2:21,22 says Jesus is a man approved by God. Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 explicitly state YHWH is not a man. Therefore we don't call on Jesus to be saved... the Bible never says "call on Jesus to be saved" but rather "call on the name of the Lord to be saved" and that Lord in the context is YHWH. Not the same person as Jesus nor do they have the same name. The Lord sent Jesus per Acts 3:20, Jesus is the servant of the Lord per Acts 3:13, etc. I hope that helps you.

Jesus is exhaustively proven to not be YHWH throughout Scripture. Several explicit examples of this. Hebrews 1 is a great example and so is Acts 3. I am convinced you have been tremendously deceived so try to read the context without your trinitarian goggles on.

Wow. you say stuff that excludes you from understanding Jesus. You are right that men are not God. But one man came as incarnation, as the Son of God. And no one says God is a man. But we know that God became incarnate as a man. You miss the simplest distinctions and then you deny the simplest scriptures. You keep digging holes and falling into them.
You always emphasize that Acts 2:36 shows Jesus as Lord but now you deny it in Acts 2:21. Since Acts 2:21 shows fulfillment of Jesus as Lord per Joel 2:32, you have no other logical choice except to confess Jesus as Yahweh if you want to be saved.

 

[Victoria]

God is not talking to himself or the other two beings within himself - 'Let us' . . . He is conversing with his heavenly court, his angels . . . who were there with him in the beginning.
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Ezekiel 1 describes the cherubims
Isaiah 6:2-3 describes the seraphims

Adam, 'nor Eve were created this way.

Humans can die a physical death, the invisible sons of God cannot.

Jesus Christ can redeem sinful humanity, no where does it say that Jesus will redeem angels.
Therefore, two things that are different cannot be the same.

Angels are described as God's messengers, protectors, & powerful beings.
Man wasn't created as such. If so, where are our powers?

Yeah, another Jesus whom Paul and the apostles did not preach or another gospel they did not preach and they did not preach that Jesus was God but that he was the Messiah, the Lord's Christ.

If Jesus wasn't God, then He certainly wouldn't qualify to die for the sins of humanity.

 

[Capbook]

Here we go again. Show an example from the Bible where anyone obeyed what Jesus said in Matthew 28:19.

Do you mean that Jesus is not to be obeyed? Yes or no?
Arians disobedience to Jesus great commission, also a disobedience to the Father's command, "hear Him."
A perfect example to 2John 1:9, Arians who goes far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. (Emphasis is mine)

1. There is an example of Spirit baptism,
2. Also in the name of Jesus baptism,
3. Jesus said "I and the Father are one.

Simple mathematical addition of Biblical account arrived us to the great commission, obeying Jesus and the Father's command.

Mar 1:8 “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Joh 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

Mat 28:19 “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,