Runningman
Active Member
So since Jesus is the son of God then is he begotten? Yes or no.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
Just because scripture in the OT has primarily recognize the oneness of God does not erase the places where two powers of heaven are revealed in the OT or where Jesus is revealed as God in the NT. Is scripture unable to challenge the limited conception of God that you have?
Runningman
Active Member
It's the same in the New Testament. Now you understand why the Father is the only true God? Why do you suppose no one ever called God a they or them if God is a they or them? Gee whiz, this isn't rocket science Mike. It just means God isn't more than one person.
Peterlag
Active Member
THE “THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY” CANNOT BE GOD, BECAUSE...
Only The Father Knows.
Jesus said it himself: only the Father knows when he will return (Matthew 24:36). If the Holy Spirit were a third coequal member of a triune godhead, it would know too—but it doesn’t - only the Father knows.
It Does Not Speak Its Own Words
John 16:13 says the Spirit “will not speak on its own authority, but whatever it hears it will speak.” That’s a far cry from God - who speaks by His own authority, and is never told what to say by someone else.
“It” - Not “He”
Scripture often calls the Spirit “it” because it is not a person:
Numbers 11:25: “And the LORD took of the Spirit that was upon Moses, and gave IT unto the seventy elders...”
Romans 8:16: “The Spirit IT-self beareth witness with our spirit…”
ohn 16:13 says the Spirit “will not speak on ITS own authority, but whatever IT hears IT will speak.”
God is always a “He” never an “It”.
Almost Never Listed With The Father And Son
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” – Romans 1:7
“There is but one God, the Father... and one Lord Jesus Christ” –1 Corinthians 8:6
If the Spirit is a coequal person of God, why is it missing from nearly every list alongside the Father and the Son?
Only The Father Knows.
Jesus said it himself: only the Father knows when he will return (Matthew 24:36). If the Holy Spirit were a third coequal member of a triune godhead, it would know too—but it doesn’t - only the Father knows.
It Does Not Speak Its Own Words
John 16:13 says the Spirit “will not speak on its own authority, but whatever it hears it will speak.” That’s a far cry from God - who speaks by His own authority, and is never told what to say by someone else.
“It” - Not “He”
Scripture often calls the Spirit “it” because it is not a person:
Numbers 11:25: “And the LORD took of the Spirit that was upon Moses, and gave IT unto the seventy elders...”
Romans 8:16: “The Spirit IT-self beareth witness with our spirit…”
ohn 16:13 says the Spirit “will not speak on ITS own authority, but whatever IT hears IT will speak.”
God is always a “He” never an “It”.
Almost Never Listed With The Father And Son
“Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ” – Romans 1:7
“There is but one God, the Father... and one Lord Jesus Christ” –1 Corinthians 8:6
If the Spirit is a coequal person of God, why is it missing from nearly every list alongside the Father and the Son?
What do the "Word of God" I colored green above mean to be? The whole Bible or not?
Do you believe God's principle always changes? One principle of salvation to one administration and another to one?
I just believe God never change, (Mal 3:6) also Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Heb 13:8)
Do that term "forever" in Heb 13:8, in Greek as "αἰών aiōn" same with Psa 45:6 "forever" in the Septuagint?
Mal 3:6 “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, the sons of Jacob, have not come to an end.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.
As Jesus emptied Himself the form of God and take the form of a servant in the likeness of men and obedient to the Father even death on the cross, a demonstration of Jesus's voluntary submission to the Father's will and a reflection of His human limitations during His earthly ministry. While Jesus is fully God, He was in the human form, and this human aspect did not include the omniscience of the Father regarding the timing of His return. And as Jesus said in Acts 1:7 that there are certain things that it is not for the followers to know times and season that the Father had fixed by His own authority.
As to the Holy Spirit, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
If someone blaspheme Jesus, when confessed the sin will be forgiven.
If someone blaspheme God, when confessed, the sin will be forgiven.
If someone blaspheme the Holy Spirit why the sin (eternal sin) will not be forgiven?(Mark 3:29)
Bible lexicon defined "blasphemes" in Greek "βλασφημέω blasphēmeō" as to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence.
This proves that the Holy Spirit is distinct and separate person from the Father and Jesus whom blasphemies against Him cannot be forgiven while of the Father and Jesus will be forgiven.
The three are one in the nature of being God.
It is to understand that "God" is a title or nature and not the personal name of the Father.
Mar 3:28 “Truly I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons and daughters of men, and whatever blasphemies they commit;
Mar 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
G987
βλασφημέω blasphēmeō
34x: to defame, revile, slander, Mat_27:39; to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme,
Last edited:
Peterlag
Active Member
There's no verse that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood.
Peterlag
Active Member
Here's an example of how things change...
The gift of the holy spirit that Christians have is a gift and thus an “it.” Jesus told the apostles that the spirit would be “in” them (John14:17)—which is what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the holy spirit went from being with or “upon” people in the Old Testament and Gospels to being born “in” people on and after the Day of Pentecost. The spirit is sent by the Father (John 14:16-17) and Jesus (John 16:7). It does not speak on its own, but it speaks only what it hears (John 16:13). Thus, the gift of the holy spirit is directed by God and Jesus, which is what we would expect since it's God’s nature born in us. The gift of the holy spirit is the nature of God, and when it's born in us it becomes part of our very nature (2 Peter 1:4). God does not change, but the gift of God’s holy spirit that believers have today is different from the spirit that God gave in the Old Testament, and so the gift of God’s spirit has changed.
Runningman
Active Member
Well said, but I might add that even Jesus changed and underwent spiritual development. He wasn't automatically like God. He had to learn, grow, develop, and increase in wisdom and stature with God.
This is one of those things the Trins cannot play their hypostatic union card on. The divine nature is something Jesus should have had independent of his humanity, but he didn't. Means Jesus is a man with a divine nature, not God with a divine nature, just like others can be.
Literal word for word Bible translation speaks about Jesus as "existed in the form of God."
Let me present to you a simple logic;
1. Jesus as in the form of a bond-servant, is He man or not?
2. Jesus as in the form of God, Is He God or not? Why the honest and logical answer of the first question cannot be applied to the second one? Kindly explain logically and honestly.
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
I'll get back to this again, as you missed this question.
Is the Word of God I colored green above refers to the whole Bible or not?
Peterlag
Active Member
What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God. What does God mean when He tells us that the visions shown to Isaiah was concerning Judah and Jerusalem? It was not addressed to us or written concerning us, but it was addressed to and concerning Judah and Jerusalem. It would be dishonest for the Church of God to interpret to the Church of God what God said concerns Israel.
Peterlag
Active Member
Logic you say...
Trinitarians piece together statements that are scattered all over the Bible. They basically use bits and pieces of words and half verses along with their own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as they pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there, and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human thinking.
Peterlag
Active Member
What is left in the absence of Christ...
Darkness is not the opposite of light, but rather the absence of it. It's what is left in the absence of light. If we can't get to God unless we have Christ first then what is left without Christ? If we think Jesus is God then we do not know who he is and therefore cannot have access to God. So what do we have left? What is left in the absence of Christ?
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus had not been claiming to be God in the flesh and this is why the Jews never asked him at his trial if he was God in the flesh, but instead they asked him about what he had been claiming to be, which was the Messiah. Mark 14:61-62 records the High Priest asking “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said "I am.” The High Priest tore his garments and said he deserved to be put to death when Jesus stated he was the Messiah. So we see that the Jews correctly assessed that Jesus had been claiming to be the Christ, and that Jesus indeed said he was the Christ, and also that the Jews thought his claim was worthy of the death penalty.
Darkness is not the opposite of light, but rather the absence of it. It's what is left in the absence of light. If we can't get to God unless we have Christ first then what is left without Christ? If we think Jesus is God then we do not know who he is and therefore cannot have access to God. So what do we have left? What is left in the absence of Christ?
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus had not been claiming to be God in the flesh and this is why the Jews never asked him at his trial if he was God in the flesh, but instead they asked him about what he had been claiming to be, which was the Messiah. Mark 14:61-62 records the High Priest asking “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said "I am.” The High Priest tore his garments and said he deserved to be put to death when Jesus stated he was the Messiah. So we see that the Jews correctly assessed that Jesus had been claiming to be the Christ, and that Jesus indeed said he was the Christ, and also that the Jews thought his claim was worthy of the death penalty.
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus still got hungry after he was resurrected and he still gets hungry now. The resurrected, glorified, and ascended Jesus must continue eating.
Luke 24
41While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, 43and He took it and ate it in front of them.
Why can't answer to a simple question?
If we stand for the truth, all questions can be sufficiently answered.
Here, once again, what the "Word of God" I colored blue above means? Is it the whole Bible or not? Just yes or no.
I quote Philippians 2:6-7, why can't face the topic?
That's "ad hominen" cannot engage the issue, just attack the one who raise the issue.
Here again, Literal word for word Bible translation speaks about Jesus as "existed in the form of God."
Let me present to you a simple logic;
1. Jesus as in the form of a bond-servant, is He man or not?
2. Jesus as in the form of God, Is He God or not? Why the honest and logical answer of the first question cannot be applied to the second one? Kindly explain logically and honestly.
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Peterlag
Active Member
Philippians 2:6 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.
The Greek word morphē does not refer to the essential nature of Christ in that context. If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say that? If Jesus is God, say that, don’t say he has the “essential nature of God.” Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say “Jesus being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.
From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.
