Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[Doug Brents]

None of those verses say that. You misinterpret every one and show that you really don't care about verses that say we're saved by repenting and believing in Jesus, not by anything else.

As I have said before, you seem to think that you can be saved by following only some of the Bible while ignoring other parts of it. Those verses do indeed say that salvation is received during water baptism, but you want to find a shortcut to God's perfect plan. There are no shortcuts, and there is no salvation without complete surrender to His will. His perfect will seems foolishness to you, just as it did to Naaman, but it is only in doing what He said that you will receive the blessing/gift that only He can give.

 

[Red Baker]

You can't know when you're born again? Lol.

Strange position.

If that's strange to you, and I'm sure it is, then, it only shows how little of the scriptures folks like you truly understands. You quoted:

1st John 5:13~"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."​

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

This clear statement denies and rejects the common Arminian ignorance about scripture. From beginning of the epistle, John has addressed his audience as Jesus believers. To whom were the New Testament epistles written? Believers, never unbelievers. John did not write to get the lost eternal life or to get their names in the book of life ~ like many here believe.

The apostles wrote to elect believers for them to know their salvation and to obey Christ. Think about the epistles of the apostles, especially Paul’s letters, to churches of elect.

God is not the Father of all men; God does not love all men; Jesus did not die for all.

To take facts or promises made to elect believers and offer them universally is a corruption of the word of God.

For example, this epistle has grand and great statements of God’s love and our adoption (I Jn 3:1; 4:9-10), but neither was ever offered in all of Acts by the apostles.

Paul worked for the elect’s sakes that he might benefit them practically (2nd Tim 2:10). Paul prayed against men without faith to find others (2nd Thess 3:1-2; Acts 17:1-3).

That ye may know that ye have eternal life.

Since the first clause of the verse is to believers, he did not offer eternal life to them, for it is freely given without them asking for it!

Romans 10:20​

“But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.”

The first clause (1st John 5:13) of the verse is to believers; he confirmed they already had eternal life. As John wrote plainly, faith is not the means but rather the evidence (I Jn 4:15; 5:1,20).

And that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Greater faith is key, for eternal life is not just a decision, but a life of faith (John 8:31-32). For assurance of eternal life, he pressed for more faith and love (Ist John 3:18-19; 4:15-17).

 

[Doug Brents]

God is not the Father of all men; God does not love all men; Jesus did not die for all.

Sorry, but all three of the pieces of this sentence are wrong. But they are also right from a certain point of view.
God is the Father, the creator, the maker of all mankind. So He is the Father of all.
But we are only adopted into His family (thereby making Him our Abba (our daddy)) when we become united to Christ (in baptism).

God is love. Scripture does not say that God loves, it says that He IS love. Therefore He loves everyone.
But He loves those who are in Christ more completely/fully.

This last part is completely wrong on all counts. Jesus died for everyone (1 John 2:2). There is not a single person who has been, or will ever be, born for whom Jesus did not die. Not everyone will choose to accept His gift, but the gift was offered to everyone.

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry, but all three of the pieces of this sentence are wrong. But they are also right from a certain point of view.

That does not make very much sense ~but, then again, I was not laboring to teach on the Godhead ~ so, I'll let this pass for now.

But we are only adopted into His family (thereby making Him our Abba (our daddy)) when we become united to Christ (in baptism).

Doug, I debated with you back during late winter in 2024 on water baptism, on this very forum, so I'm not going back and rehearse this with you again, there's no profit in doing so. I believe in water baptism is just what the word of God said it is ~ an answer of a good conscience to God ~ so, one must first be born of God and given that good conscience before he can be baptized into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ. Baptism does not legally allow us to be adopted as you said above ~ one is first chosen to be adopted, into Christ. Election of grace puts one IN CHRIST, then all spiritual blessing flow from God's election!

Ephesians 1:4​

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Therefore He loves everyone

False, and that goes against God's testimony which is recorded in his word.

Psalms 5:5​

“The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.”

So, do you believe Noah had a banner on the ark that said: "Smile God loves you"? I know that he did not.

God hates all sinners.​

This is plainly taught in Psalm 5:4-6 and 11:4-6, though these verses are generally ignored. Here are two verses that specifically address the subject at hand – there are people God hates. In spite of these verses, people want to keep right on believing, “God couldn’t hate anybody.” God hates sinners – the wicked in these verses – because He hates sin, and sinners love sin.

It is the imagination of weak minds that gently coos, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” This statement is a profane lie! So, I ask again: Should Noah have had a banner across the side of the ark comforting the drowning rebels with the words, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner”? This statement is a profane lie! Should Joshua have had ensigns before the armies of Israel as they exterminated the Canaanites with the words, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner”?

There is nothing in man justifying God’s love; there is nothing in God requiring He love man. Throughout the word of God, there are two great classes of men – the wicked and the righteous, the reprobates and the elect, the sinners and saints, the children and the bastards, the church and the rest, the saved and the lost, vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, etc., etc.

It is a result of confused thinking to say, “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” Sin is not a separate thing that can be hated and punished by itself. Sin is the rebellious choice of a rational creature to despise His Creator and violate His commandments. God hates the actor and activity of this rebel creature. He will send persons to hell, not sins. The saying is a profane lie!

God hates both the sin and the sinner (Lev 20:23; Deut 18:12; 25:16; Ps 2:4-9; 7:11; 10:3; Pr 3:31-34; 6:16-19; 16:5; 17:5; Malachi 1:3-4; I Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10-11).

But He loves those who are in Christ more completely/fully.

Not more, but only!

his last part is completely wrong on all counts. Jesus died for everyone (1 John 2:2). There is not a single person who has been, or will ever be, born for whom Jesus did not die. Not everyone will choose to accept His gift, but the gift was offered to everyone.

I may come back and prove just how wrong this corrupt lie is...but enough for now.

 

[Doug Brents]

That does not make very much sense ~but, then again, I was not laboring to teach on the Godhead ~ so, I'll let this pass for now.


Doug, I debated with you back during late winter in 2024 on water baptism, on this very forum, so I'm not going back and rehearse this with you again, there's no profit in doing so. I believe in water baptism is just what the word of God said it is ~ an answer of a good conscience to God ~ so, one must first be born of God and given that good conscience before he can be baptized into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ. Baptism does not legally allow us to be adopted as you said above ~ one is first chosen to be adopted, into Christ. Election of grace puts one IN CHRIST, then all spiritual blessing flow from God's election!

Ephesians 1:4​

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

As already noted, all have been called, and so all can be adopted. It is those who God knew were going to choose Him (that choose to be "in Him") that He predestined to be holy.

False, and that goes against God's testimony which is recorded in his word.

Psalms 5:5​

“The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.”

Rom 5:8 says that while we were still sinners, God loved us and died for us. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner.

I may come back and prove just how wrong this corrupt lie is...but enough for now.

So you are saying that Scripture is a lie? Hmm? 1 John 2:2 is very explicit that Jesus died not only for us (the saved), but for the whole world (every single person who has ever, or will ever, be born. And this is not the only passage that says so, just the most explicit.

 

[dwight92070]

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

He who has exchanged wedding vows and has consummated his relationship shall be married; but he who has NOT exchanged vows shall not be married.

 

[Doug Brents]

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

He who has exchanged wedding vows and has consummated his relationship shall be married; but he who has NOT exchanged vows shall not be married.

Again, a false analogy.
The consummation of the marriage in righteousness is a reward, a gift, for those who are properly married. Consummation with Christ will occur in Heaven at the thousand year wedding feast.
Repentance is more closely associated with the engagement.
Confession of Jesus as Lord is like the wedding vows.
Baptism is like the minster or justice of the peace pronouncing you husband and wife. - That is when the couple actually becomes married.
Belief (faith) encompasses repentance, confession, and baptism, but Jesus makes the point of separating baptism, the pronouncement of the truth of the union, as the point at which the union actually takes place.

So then, he who says wedding vows (which assumes the engagement) and is pronounced married becomes married, but he who refuses to say wedding vows remains single.

 

[dwight92070]

Actually it is a very accurate analogy.

After one has exchanged wedding vows, they are married.

The consummation of the marriage, the sexual union, is commanded by God - "Be fruitful and multiply", but it, in itself, is NOT required to be married.
In fact, if the sexual union happens before they exchange vows, they are committing fornication.
If baptism happens before one is born again, it may not be a sin, unless one is trusting it to be their salvation vs. their repentance and believing in Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

He who has exchanged wedding vows and has consummated his relationship shall be married; but he who has NOT exchanged vows shall not be married.

In regard to Mark 16:16, it logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26 etc..) yet Jesus clarified the first clause of Mark 16:16 with, "but he who does not believe shall be condemned." Nothing there about a lack of baptism causing condemnation.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He who believes and is baptized is like saying, "he who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well." Of course, it's not the washing it down with water part that makes a person well. It's the medication, but if water is not available and the person takes the medication dry (been there, done that) they will still be made well "because of the medication."

It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe, but if someone is on their death bed in the hospital or on the battlefield etc.. and cannot get baptized before death, they are still saved because they BELIEVED (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but he who does not believe will be condemned. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "water baptized or condemned."

Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience. Anyone professing to believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and yet refusing to be water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone who truly believes the gospel would refuse to be water baptized. I could not wait to get water baptized after my conversion and I cannot think of one Christian that I know who has refused to be water baptized after their conversion.

Sadly though, there have been numerous folks over the years (especially those who attend false religions and cults) that have been water baptized and may merely believe "mental assent" in the existence of Christ and in certain historical facts about Christ, but they have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Instead, such folks trust in "water and works" for salvation. We need to place our faith in the Savior God (John 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12; Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 John 5:13 etc..) and not the water god.

 

[mailmandan]

Actually it is a very accurate analogy.

After one has exchanged wedding vows, they are married.

The consummation of the marriage, the sexual union, is commanded by God - "Be fruitful and multiply", but it, in itself, is NOT required to be married.
In fact, if the sexual union happens before they exchange vows, they are committing fornication.
If baptism happens before one is born again, it may not be a sin, unless one is trusting it to be their salvation vs. their repentance and believing in Jesus.

Speaking of wedding vows, a man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Doug Brents]

Actually it is a very accurate analogy.

After one has exchanged wedding vows, they are married.

No, they have exchanged the vows to be faithful to each other, but after the vows are exchanged the minister asks if anyone has reason that they should not be joined. They are not joined until he pronounces them joined. It is the pronouncement that unites them, just as it is baptism that unites us with Jesus.

The consummation of the marriage, the sexual union, is commanded by God - "Be fruitful and multiply", but it, in itself, is NOT required to be married.
In fact, if the sexual union happens before they exchange vows, they are committing fornication.
If baptism happens before one is born again, it may not be a sin, unless one is trusting it to be their salvation vs. their repentance and believing in Jesus.

Which is why consummation is not analogous to baptism. Because baptism is the point at which we become united to Christ, as Rom 6 and Col 2 tell us.

And I have never said or insinuated that I trust in baptism to be my salvation. I trust in God to save me because I have obeyed Him, just as Naaman trusted in God to cure him because he did what God said would cause him to be cured, and Israel trusted in God to deliver the city of Jericho to them because they did what He told them to do to obtain the city He had already given to them, and the widow trusted the prophet to increase her food so she would survive the famine as he told her God would do.

In every case in Scripture there is a promise of a gift and an action or task that must be done to receive it. Upon completion of the task or action, the gift is received, but if the task is not done (because the person doesn't really trust God) the gift is not received.

 

[Doug Brents]

Speaking of wedding vows, a man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Again, an improper analogy.

Baptism is not just a symbol of salvation, any more than the Flood was a symbol of the salvation of the 8 in the Ark.

 

[Red Baker]

As already noted, all have been called, and so all can be adopted. It is those who God knew were going to choose Him (that choose to be "in Him") that He predestined to be holy.

Doug, you go against scripture after scriptures to protect and support your false gospel. So have all been called, Paul said that you lying.

1st Corinthians 1:26​

“For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:”

You say all, Paul said not many...I'll go with Paul.

Rom 5:8 says that while we were still sinners, God loved us and died for us. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner.

Paul wrote this epistle.....

Romans 1:7​

“To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

He hates the sin, but loves the sinner.

Please provide just one scripture to support what you are saying. A sinner does nothing but sin, you cannot separate a sinner from his sins~and then proclaim that he hates sin but loves the sinners, which is impossible. He can love his elect since he chose them in Christ before they done any good or evil!

Ephesians 2:4,5​

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved”

But this is not so when the reprobates.

So you are saying that Scripture is a lie? Hmm? 1 John 2:2 is very explicit that Jesus died not only for us (the saved), but for the whole world (every single person who has ever, or will ever, be born. And this is not the only passage that says so, just the most explicit.

1 John 2:2​

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

"not for ours only"~ meaning Jews

"for the sins of the whole world" meaning the Gentiles also! John and the other apostles went unto the the circumcision, while Paul went unto the heathens!

Galatians 2:9​

“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

You need to learn how to rightly divide the word of God which you do not know as far as I can tell. Of course you are not alone here on this forum.

 

[dwight92070]

No, they have exchanged the vows to be faithful to each other, but after the vows are exchanged the minister asks if anyone has reason that they should not be joined. They are not joined until he pronounces them joined. It is the pronouncement that unites them, just as it is baptism that unites us with Jesus.

Hogwash, even if no pronouncement is made and even if someone objects, they are still married when they make a vow to each other. God says in Malachi 2:14 " ... she is your companion and your wife by covenant. Their vows are their covenant before God and man. Likewise, we don't have to wait for water baptism to get saved.

Which is why consummation is not analogous to baptism. Because baptism is the point at which we become united to Christ, as Rom 6 and Col 2 tell us.

And I have never said or insinuated that I trust in baptism to be my salvation. I trust in God to save me because I have obeyed Him, just as Naaman trusted in God to cure him because he did what God said would cause him to be cured, and Israel trusted in God to deliver the city of Jericho to them because they did what He told them to do to obtain the city He had already given to them, and the widow trusted the prophet to increase her food so she would survive the famine as he told her God would do.

In every case in Scripture there is a promise of a gift and an action or task that must be done to receive it. Upon completion of the task or action, the gift is received, but if the task is not done (because the person doesn't really trust God) the gift is not received.

Wrong, just like the consummation doesn't happen until AFTER they have exchanged vows, so baptism does not happen in the Bible until AFTER the person has made their "vow", or commitment by faith to follow Jesus.

In each case in Acts, they believed first (1) and were baptized later (2).

Acts 2:41 " ... those who had received his word (1) were baptized (2);"
Acts 8:12 "But when they believed Philip preaching the good news (1)... they were being baptized. (2)
Acts 8:13 "Even Simon himself believed (1); and after being baptized, (2)"
Acts 8:37-38 "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (1) " ... and Philip ... baptized him. (2)"
Acts 9:17-18 "Brother Saul (Ananias acknowledges Saul is a brother in the Lord) (1) ... the Lord Jesus ... has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit (another sign that he already believed) (1) ... and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized (2).
Acts 10:47-48 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT just as we did, "(Obviously they already believed and already had "received the Holy Spirit" (1). So, because of that, Peter said that they should be baptized. (2)
Acts 16:14 "Lydia opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul (1). And when she and her household had been baptized ... (2)."
Acts 16:30-34 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. (1) ... And that very hour ... he was baptized, he and all his household.(2)
Acts 18:8 "Crispus, ...believed in the Lord with all his household." (1) ... and they were believing (1) and being baptized (2)
Acts 19:4-5 "... telling the people to believe in Him ... that is, in Jesus.(1) When they heard this, they were baptized."(2)

 

[mailmandan]

Again, an improper analogy.

Baptism is not just a symbol of salvation, any more than the Flood was a symbol of the salvation of the 8 in the Ark.

My analogy was spot on, and the waters of the flood symbolize baptism. The flood water of Noah's day was not the means of his salvation, but the ark. Water baptism is not the means of our salvation, but the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Get the picture?

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Before mentioning baptism in Romans 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

It may benefit you to do a word study on types, symbols and pictures.

1 Peter 3:21

Amplified Bible
​

21 Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now [a]saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Read full chapter

Footnotes​

1. 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 3:21 - Amplified Bible

Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of...

www.biblegateway.com

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

Now just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

 

[Studyman]

Acts 22:16 "Acts 22:16 — The New King James Version (NKJV) 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Paul tells us that he did not receive or hear the gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ:

Gal. 1:11-12 " ... the gospel ... I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." So we know that Paul heard and believed in Christ on the road to Damascus, even before Ananias came to him.

Acts 9: 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, "hath sent me", that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

Paul was still Spiritually Blind until he met the man that Jesus sent, "That he may receive his sight". Be careful not to infect what is actually written, with preconceived notions or doctrines promoted by this world's religions.

That was indeed a revelation of Jesus Christ. But listen to Paul's own account on his way to Damacus:
"I saw on the way a light from heaven ... and I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you as a servant and a witness not only to the things in which you have seen Me, but also to the things in which I will appear to you, rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me." Acts 26:13-18

So if Jesus was sending Paul to both Jewish and Gentile people "to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Him,

then what are the chances that Paul himself did not have:

1. his eyes opened (spiritually) so that he turned from darkness to light and that
2. he had not been rescued from the power of Satan to God,
3. and that he did not receive forgiveness of sins,
4. and that he did not receive an inheritance among those who had been sanctified by faith in Him?

Like with all men, God sends them to Jesus and His Prophets and Disciples. Paul was instructed by the Spirit of Christ in Annanias, and his Disciples in Damascus what to teach both Jew and Gentile. Not of man's religion, but of God's "Way" as described by the Spirit of Christ in Annanias and His Disciples.

Answer: The chances are slim to zero. Jesus would not send Paul to facilitate all these things in others, if He had not first accomplished all these things in Paul himself.

This is why Jesus sent Paul to Damascus in the first place, to be taught by the Spirit of Christ which dwelled in Annanias and His Disciples.

So on the road to Damascus, Paul had his eyes opened (spiritually) and he turned from darkness to light, and he was rescued from the power of Satan to God, and his sins were forgiven, and he received an inheritance among those who had been sanctified (saved) by faith in Him.

According to what is actually written in Scriptures, Paul was blind until he came to Ananias, the man Jesus sent that through him, he might receive sight. It's right there in Act's 9.

Paul was saved, delivered, forgiven, given an inheritance with those who were saved by faith (not baptism), and indwelt by the Holy Spirit - all on the road to Damascus, before Ananias even came to him.

That is not what Paul teaches, nor does it accurately reflect what is actually written in Scriptures.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days "with the disciples which were at Damascus".

It is important to consider "ALL" that is written, when teaching others about the Scriptures. There is no evidence at all that Paul had already received God's Holy Spirit, before he came to the man God sent, that he might receive His Holy Spirit.

How do we know that he received the indwelling Holy Spirit on that road (which happens to every person who gets saved)? Didn't Paul receive the indwelling Holy Spirit three days later, when Ananias laid hands on him?
Actually no, he was already indwelt by the Holy Spirit when he believed, on the road to Damascus.

No, Paul was blinded and was to remain blinded until he obeyed and came to those men who Jesus sent to him. "That he might receive his sight" and be given the Holy Spirit.

When Ananias laid hands on him, he was filled with the Holy Spirit, just like the 120 people in the upper room. They were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but on the Day of Pentecost, they were filled with the Holy Spirit, or baptized in the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised in Acts 1:5.

No, they observed Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread, and counted correctly, "In Faith/obedience" believing God was True. And when they had gathered together on Feast of Weeks, as instructed by Moses and the Prophets, they received God's Holy Spirit, just as Zacharias, Simeon and Anna had received for their obedience. Peter confirms this in Acts 5.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are "his witnesses" of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given "to them" that obey him.

Paul tells you this in Acts 26, if we can believe him.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, "I was not disobedient" unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for (Worthy of) repentance.

When one is saved they are immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

There are "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who claim the indwelling of the Spirit. But Jesus Himself says HE doesn't even know them. God doesn't "SAVE" or give everyone who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, His Spirit. But HE does give His Holy Spirit to ALL those men who "Yield themselves" in obedience to Him. At least, according to what is actually written.

Later they may receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, if they desire it - many do not, for whatever reason they don't want it.

So really, the only things that happened when Ananias laid hands on Paul was 1. he regained his sight and 2. he was baptized and 3. Ananias encouraged him.

No salvation or forgiveness of sins or indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurred when Ananias baptized him. They had already happened three days before.

That is not what the Scriptures actually teach. But it is a philosophy promoted by "many" who "transform themselves into apostles of Christ.

I would read the accounts again and try to do so "apart" from the religious philosophies promoted by this world's religious system, and in a "willing and obedient mind". If you do, you will come to a different understanding, one that aligns itself with the entire Bible.

 

[dwight92070]

Acts 9: 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, "hath sent me", that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

Paul was still Spiritually Blind until he met the man that Jesus sent, "That he may receive his sight". Be careful not to infect what is actually written, with preconceived notions or doctrines promoted by this world's religions.




Like with all men, God sends them to Jesus and His Prophets and Disciples. Paul was instructed by the Spirit of Christ in Annanias, and his Disciples in Damascus what to teach both Jew and Gentile. Not of man's religion, but of God's "Way" as described by the Spirit of Christ in Annanias and His Disciples.



This is why Jesus sent Paul to Damascus in the first place, to be taught by the Spirit of Christ which dwelled in Annanias and His Disciples.


According to what is actually written in Scriptures, Paul was blind until he came to Ananias, the man Jesus sent that through him, he might receive sight. It's right there in Act's 9.



That is not what Paul teaches, nor does it accurately reflect what is actually written in Scriptures.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days "with the disciples which were at Damascus".

It is important to consider "ALL" that is written, when teaching others about the Scriptures. There is no evidence at all that Paul had already received God's Holy Spirit, before he came to the man God sent, that he might receive His Holy Spirit.

No, Paul was blinded and was to remain blinded until he obeyed and came to those men who Jesus sent to him. "That he might receive his sight" and be given the Holy Spirit.

No, they observed Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread, and counted correctly, "In Faith/obedience" believing God was True. And when they had gathered together on Feast of Weeks, as instructed by Moses and the Prophets, they received God's Holy Spirit, just as Zacharias, Simeon and Anna had received for their obedience. Peter confirms this in Acts 5.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are "his witnesses" of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given "to them" that obey him.

Paul tells you this in Acts 26, if we can believe him.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, "I was not disobedient" unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for (Worthy of) repentance.



There are "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who claim the indwelling of the Spirit. But Jesus Himself says HE doesn't even know them. God doesn't "SAVE" or give everyone who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, His Spirit. But HE does give His Holy Spirit to ALL those men who "Yield themselves" in obedience to Him. At least, according to what is actually written.



That is not what the Scriptures actually teach. But it is a philosophy promoted by "many" who "transform themselves into apostles of Christ.

I would read the accounts again and try to do so "apart" from the religious philosophies promoted by this world's religious system, and in a "willing and obedient mind". If you do, you will come to a different understanding, one that aligns itself with the entire Bible.

It's clear that Paul received the gospel "through a revelation of Jesus Christ", just as he said in Galatians 1:12. When did he receive this revelation? On the road to Damascus, not 3 days later. Jesus appeared to Him and told him what He had called him to do, to preach to Jews, yes, but primarily to the Gentiles. Jesus doesn't send people to preach the gospel, if they themselves have not received it yet. If He did, He would be sending a non-believer to preach the gospel. How likely is that? It's amazing how you seem to know that Ananias preached the gospel to Paul, yet it says that nowhere. He called Paul "brother", so we know Paul was already saved. Jesus said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers? For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." Paul was a brother in Christ before Ananias even came to him.

I would stick to what the Bible says and try to do so apart from the religious heresies promoted by the god of this world, Satan.

Obviously, you are mistaken. I don't know what you consider "this world's religious system" - probably any who disagree with you.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, you go against scripture after scriptures to protect and support your false gospel. So have all been called, Paul said that you lying.

1st Corinthians 1:26​

“For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:”

You say all, Paul said not many...I'll go with Paul.

Can you not read? Not many WISE MEN, not many MIGHTY, not many NOBLE respond to the call. But all have been called. All have been offered the gift of salvation.

Paul wrote this epistle.....

Romans 1:7​

“To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Again, all have been called, because Jesus called ALL men to Him when He was lifted up on the cross. But not all men respond to the call, and so not all men are saints.

Please provide just one scripture to support what you are saying. A sinner does nothing but sin, you cannot separate a sinner from his sins~and then proclaim that he hates sin but loves the sinners, which is impossible. He can love his elect since he chose them in Christ before they done any good or evil!

Ephesians 2:4,5​

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved”

That verse does a good job of answering your question. Even when we were dead in our sins, God loved us and made us alive in Christ through His grace (His gift of salvation). Yet, He loved us while we were still sinners, while we were still His enemies, while we hated Him He loved us.

But this is not so when the reprobates.

1 John 2:2​

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

"not for ours only"~ meaning Jews

"for the sins of the whole world" meaning the Gentiles also! John and the other apostles went unto the the circumcision, while Paul went unto the heathens!

"Ours" is not referring to the Jews, but to the saved (those already in Christ). Jesus didn't die just for the saved (the "elect"), but for the whole world also. What part of "the whole world" don't you understand. There is NO ONE who is not part of "the whole world". Jesus died for EVERYONE.

Galatians 2:9​

“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

You need to learn how to rightly divide the word of God which you do not know as far as I can tell. Of course you are not alone here on this forum.

It is irrelevant to this discussion who James, Peter, and John went to preach to at first, and whom Paul was sent to. Peter was the first to convert a Gentile to the faith, and he and the other Apostles eventually all went on to preach to the Gentiles as well.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hogwash, even if no pronouncement is made and even if someone objects, they are still married when they make a vow to each other. God says in Malachi 2:14 " ... she is your companion and your wife by covenant. Their vows are their covenant before God and man. Likewise, we don't have to wait for water baptism to get saved.

Yes, we do have to wait for water baptism to be saved. That is when Scripture says the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us to Jesus' death and resurrection. You want to put salvation before God does, but He is the one in charge of who receives salvation and when they receive it, not you. He is the one who says that it takes both the Spirit and water to enter the kingdom of God. He is the one who says that water baptism now saved you. He is the one who says that it is in baptism that we die to sin, have sin cut from us, are united to Jesus' resurrection, are washed clean of spot or blemish, and are made part of God's family.

Wrong, just like the consummation doesn't happen until AFTER they have exchanged vows, so baptism does not happen in the Bible until AFTER the person has made their "vow", or commitment by faith to follow Jesus.

And the vow is part of what brings us to salvation, but it is not the point at which God says we receive salvation. It is in baptism that we receive salvation, not in making a vow.

In each case in Acts, they believed first (1) and were baptized later (2).

Acts 2:41 " ... those who had received his word (1) were baptized (2);"
Acts 8:12 "But when they believed Philip preaching the good news (1)... they were being baptized. (2)
Acts 8:13 "Even Simon himself believed (1); and after being baptized, (2)"
Acts 8:37-38 "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (1) " ... and Philip ... baptized him. (2)"
Acts 9:17-18 "Brother Saul (Ananias acknowledges Saul is a brother in the Lord) (1) ... the Lord Jesus ... has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit (another sign that he already believed) (1) ... and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized (2).
Acts 10:47-48 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT just as we did, "(Obviously they already believed and already had "received the Holy Spirit" (1). So, because of that, Peter said that they should be baptized. (2)
Acts 16:14 "Lydia opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul (1). And when she and her household had been baptized ... (2)."
Acts 16:30-34 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. (1) ... And that very hour ... he was baptized, he and all his household.(2)
Acts 18:8 "Crispus, ...believed in the Lord with all his household." (1) ... and they were believing (1) and being baptized (2)
Acts 19:4-5 "... telling the people to believe in Him ... that is, in Jesus.(1) When they heard this, they were baptized."(2)

Very good. Now, when does Scripture say they actually received salvation? "...In baptism..." (Rom 6:3-4, Col 2:12, Acts 22:16, etc.). Salvation is not received in "belief" alone.

 

[Doug Brents]

My analogy was spot on, and the waters of the flood symbolize baptism. The flood water of Noah's day was not the means of his salvation, but the ark. Water baptism is not the means of our salvation, but the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Get the picture?

We are saved through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and it is in baptism that we are united to His death, burial, and resurrection (Rom 6:1-7), and thus we are resurrected with Christ in Baptism when we are united to Him in His resurrection. Your analogy was faulty.

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences.

Baptism is not just a symbol. It is the point in time when we actually receive God's salvation.

In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Absolutely, but it is in baptism when we receive the benefit of Jesus' death and resurrection. Just as those in the OT received the benefit of God's blessing when they did what He commanded them to do.

Before mentioning baptism in Romans 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1)

Yes, and baptism is an act of faith. And it is in that act that the blessing is received.

That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

In baptism is when the old man dies. The old man goes into the water, and we arise out of the water to walk in new life. It is in baptism that our sins are washed away (Acts 22:16). It is in baptism that we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12). It is in baptism that we are made pure, holy, and spotless (Gal 3:26-27). It is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ and adopted as God's children (Eph 5:26-27).

As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism.

And we should take some human's statement over Scripture? I don't think so. Mr. Robertson may be a Greek scholar, but he is absolutely wrong on this. He has allowed his personal preconception to color what he is reading, and so pervert the Scripture.

1 Peter 3:21

Amplified Bible​

21 Corresponding to that [rescue through the flood], baptism [which is an expression of a believer’s new life in Christ] now [a]saves you, not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good (clear) conscience, [demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Footnotes​

1. 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism is a public representation of that which actually saves the believer—one’s personal faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

This paraphrase of the Scripture is meaningless. Again, someone has put their personal bias into Scripture and so perverted what the Word says.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

You miss the point. You do not make an appeal to God for a good conscience if you do not pass through baptism. It is IN BAPTISM that this appeal is made, and IN BAPTISM that the response from God of washing us clean occurs. Thus, it is in baptism that we are saved (baptism now saves you), not before baptism.

By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

There is no power in the physical ceremony itself. It is God's power that is poured out during the ceremony that does the cleansing. Just as with Naaman, whose leprosy was cleansed not by the power of the water of Jordan on the seventh dip, but by the power of God because he had fully done what God commanded. And just as the walls of Jericho did not fall because of the power of the shouts and horns and marching feet around the city, but by the power of God because they had fully done what God commanded.