You did not have faith in Him until you/it produces the action of obedience of baptism (Rom 6:3-4, Col 2:12, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 22:16). It is you and @civic (and all the rest of the "Christian" world who teach this false doctrine) who have been duped.
Is that what you read in what I said? I thought better of you than that. I do not now, nor have I EVER rejected or discounted the blood atonement of Jesus in any way.
How many on this forum have used these phrases: This world's religious sytem, the world's philosophy, or you're part of a religious sect of this world, you've adopted a religious cult, etc? When they accuse us of that, it's usually because they themselves are into those things themselves.When I was a teenager, I had temporarily attended the so called "church of Christ" and they taught me that ONLY "their" church is the "true Church" and they even cited Romans 16:16 in an effort to support their claim because it mentions the specific name, "churches of Christ." Such a silly claim. I guess those who attend a church today that is named the "church of God" could also try to use these verses (Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 1:22; 10:32; 11:22 etc..) in an effort to teach that only their church, "the church of God" is the "true Church" as well because those verses use the specific name, "church of God."
It was a friend who invited me to attend the church of Christ when I was a teenager. His aunt was a very devout and thoroughly indoctrinated member of the church of Christ. I'll never forget several years later running into my friend's aunt at my friend's daughter's birthday party. Since then, I had received Jesus Christ through faith and was now a born-again Christian. Praise God! I shared this good news with his aunt and the only question that she had for me was, "where do you attend church?" When my answer was not "the church of Christ," she bowed her head in sadness as if to imply that I was still lost because I did not say the church of Christ and she simply walked away from me.
After that her husband approached me and I shared the good news with him as well that I had received Jesus Christ through faith and am now a born-again Christian and he had the same question, "where do you attend church," and when I told him and the answer was not the church of Christ, his eyes glazed over followed by a cheesy legalistic grin on his face and he simply walked away from me as well and neither of them would speak with me for the rest of the night. I knew that something was terribly wrong! I could hear them both over in the corner going on and on about "salvation by water baptism" and that ONLY their church, "the church of Christ" is the "true Church."
I quickly came to realize they were both deceived.
So, you are saying I was water baptized in order to obtain faith and not because I already had faith?
You are thoroughly mixed up Doug. Belief/faith precedes water baptism. (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36-38; 10:43-48. Your tail wagging the dog/cart before the horse Campbells soup theology has you duped and there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)
No I didn’t say you but there are many on the forum lately that do.
No, I am saying, as James does, that your faith was not real, alive, effective, and whole until it was demonstrated through obedient action. Your faith before you obeyed was incomplete (like a holey pipe), and an incomplete faith (like an incomplete pipe) cannot carry the gift of God to you.
No, it does not. Baptism (and the other actions that God says lead to/result in salvation being received) completes faith.
I appreciate that. And I apologize for calling you out on it. Your comment was in response to a comment about my comment, so it felt like it was aimed in my direction.
If he agrees with the Bible and the article, then I would say that was a pretty good way of evaluating the article. You probably use the same method.
You do seem to be saying that the blood atonement is not enough for salvation. Baptism must be added. You have said in a previous forum that you don't put your trust in baptism. But in reality, you DO. You also said that in baptism, your sins are washed away symbolically (which I don't necessarily agree with), but also in baptism, your sins are literally washed away. (which I also reject) So, if that's true, you would need each person to be baptized twice - once for a symbolic washing of your sins, and a second time for a literal washing away of your sins. Hey, that's it. Baptize everyone twice!
Or are you going to just baptize them once and pretend that both the symbolic washing and the literal washing happen at the same time?
Washed in his blood? Are you referring to symbolically or literally? Because you have stated both are true on this thread.
Again, I point you to the OT examples of God's blessings/gifts and His demand for faith before the gift is received. Yes, His blood atonement is enough, but the result of that atonement is not received without a complete, living, active faith that does what He said to do to receive His gift.
Did Naaman put his trust in the dirty water of Jordan? or in the fact that he dipped the seventh time when the first six caused absolutely no change? No, his hope and trust was in God, and the dipping was just the conduit through which God poured out that gift.
LOL, no. both effects are accomplished in just one baptism. It is not the water that removes sin, just as it was not the water that removed the leprosy. It is our faith in God demonstrated by our obedience to Him that removes our sin through the power of the blood of Christ (which is exactly what 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Gal 3:2-27, Eph 5:26-27, and other passages teach).
Being washed in the blood of Jesus can only happen symbolically today, because His literal blood has decomposed. Being washed in His blood occurs in/during literal water baptism.
Your misinterpretation of James 2:22-23 shows in your eisegesis.
Belief/faith in Jesus Christ for salvation saves us apart from water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..) Your 4 step false gospel plan that culminates in salvation by water baptism is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.
Dan, this is pure eisegesis. You don't want to accept what James is saying, so you change what he means by "perfected".
No, it does not. It means that his faith was made complete by the actions of trust he had already demonstrated (going, following, accepting, etc.). His faith had failed at some points (like when he accepted Hagar as wife thinking he could help God along), but his faith/trust/dependence on God was shown over and over in his continued obedience to what God said, and this is what was the faith that was credited to him as righteousness.
He was accounted as righteous based upon his faith (his active, living trust and reliance on God which included his works), and offering Isaac was just another action of faith.
Wrong, but your eyes seem to be blind and your ears seem to be deaf, and your heart seems to be hardened to the truth. Get some oil and wine and soften them up some.
Eisegesis on your part and the end result of your eisegesis is "works righteousness" in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 4:2-6)
I fully accept what James is saying, and I did not change anything. You don't want to accept that man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); and that genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)
It means to bring to an end, to complete, perfect.
You fail to make a "distinction" between faith and obedience/works which "follow" and are produced "out of" faith. You erroneously take faith and works together, wrap them both up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. Roman Catholics make the same error. For them its faith "infused" with works and for Campbellites its faith "conjoined" with works. I made that same error prior to my conversion several years ago because it's the only thing that the natural man can understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
He was accounted as righteous based upon his faith (Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness). *Nothing there about works being accounted to him as righteousness. (For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God). Open your eyes, Doug! Put down your shoehorn and accept the truth. An action of faith is a work that is produced "out of" faith but is not faith itself. Prior to my conversion several years ago as a Roman Catholic, I remember being confused about this as well before I finally received Christ through faith. Back then, I basically defined faith "as" obedience/works just as you do now. Once I finally chose to believe the gospel that's when the light came on and I finally came to understand the truth. Praise God! - lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. The same opportunity to choose to believe the gospel is available for you as well Doug.
You are the master of irony. I really feel bad for you Doug. You have been indoctrinated into Campbellism theology from a young age, and you are too proud and stubborn to admit you are wrong. I saw this with a lot of folks in the Roman Catholic church as well. Indoctrination, pride and stubbornness can run really deep for many folks! It's time for you to swallow your pride Doug then repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel. You will not regret it! Mere mental assent belief, followed by moral self-reformation/behavior modification, followed by lip service confession, followed by water baptism (from your 4-step check list gospel plan) cannot save you Doug. That is a "different" gospel.
Absolutely we are saved through faith and not by works. But what you don't want to accept is that faith is not real unless it includes works. There is no faith without works. It is not just evidenced, but is made real, complete, alive, and effective through works.
There is no merit to repentance, confession, and baptism that would warrant the life of God. Clearly it is on the basis of Jesus' redemptive work "alone" that we are saved. But that redemptive work's effect is not received without a living, active, obedient faith.
Not accurate. I do understand the distinction between works that are part of making faith real and works that flow from (are the fruit of) faith. There are three "actions" that are commanded in Scripture that it says LEAD TO/RESULT IN receiving salvation. These actions cannot be the fruit of faith, coming after salvation is received, because they precede (lead to/result in) receiving salvation.
I have heard your false doctrine all my life, and I find that it still, as it always has, contradicts or leaves out parts of Scripture. But Dan, I think I have learned all I can from debating you. I do not have to search the Scriptures anymore in our discussion, because you only have the same old replies that lead to the same dead ends. When you come up with a new argument, please let me know. But until then, I will leave you in your false belief, praying that God would lead you back to the truth.
Amen! It's a shame that you don't really believe that. You believe in salvation through faith and works. Faith "conjoined" with works.
Why is it not real? Faith in Christ for salvation has a starting point/place of origin before works are produced. Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Then what comes next? Verse 10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Don't put the cart before the horse.
Once again, faith in Christ for salvation has a starting point/place of origin before works are produced (Ephesians 2:5-9) and there is no (genuine good works) without faith. Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree (believers) bears good fruit, but a bad tree (unbelievers) bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Now, according to your faulty human logic, a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith which would be like saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree, which is unscriptural and illogical and just plain ridiculous.
False. It takes a living faith to produce good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Made perfect/complete does not mean finally alive and effective to save. That would completely contradict (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-6). I already thoroughly explained this in post #1,095.
There is no merit to repentance and confession (when properly understood) but by the time you redefine terms and reverse the scriptural order of repentance and belief/faith, you end up turning repentance into a work for salvation that comes after faith, along with turning confession into a work for salvation after faith, instead of a confirmation of faith, then it also becomes a work for salvation. Water baptism would clearly be a work for salvation if it was absolutely necessary for salvation. You really need to get this straight.
If you only believed that. I truly believe it. (Romans 3:24-28)
Oxymoron. Just say it without sugar coating it. That redemptive work is not received without faith AND works is what you are really saying.
How long will you continue to fight against the truth?
Good grief.
Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. That is not salvation by works. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. Confession is an expression/confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation. (1 Corinthians 12:3)
So, you have heard the truth all your life but still reject it. You need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so-called gospel plan.
Well Doug, I at one time had temporarily attended the so-called church of Christ so I understand how they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith. I also understand how they fail miserably at properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine and last but not least, I understand their absolute obsession with water baptism, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. I basically know what you are going to say before you even say it, and it always culminates in salvation by faith (your version of faith) AND WORKS. It's the same with Roman Catholics as well. Let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel, Doug. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Until then, everything I share with you will just continue to go right over your head and result in a big waste of time.
The fact that you know the truth but reject it is very sad to me. Good by, Dan. When you have something more compelling than the lies Satan has burned into your head, come back, because I have enjoyed this discussion with your, and have been forced to deepen my study through some of what you said in the beginning. But now it has just become repetitive, and has no additional value. I continue to pray daily for your heart to be softened and God's truth to be let in.
Your prayer for my heart to be softened and for the truth to be let in was already answered several years ago upon my conversion when I left the Roman Catholic church, but thanks anyway, Doug.
