Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[dwight92070]

You're giving me the same old Calvinist monergism. It's wrong. It is based primarily on the Augustine's Manichaeism that he injected in to his "Christian" theology.

Faith, repentance, confession are all conditions for being born again which occurs when one is water baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift (indwelling) Holy Spirit.

And you're giving me the same old Church of Christ heresy. It's based primarily on legalism injected into the gospel of Christ.

 

[e v e]

are you saying 120 already were born again before Pentecost ?

some were taken up to heaven in the OT ....

moses, enoch etc.... having met Christ and gone to paradise. Many souls met Christ in the OT... and came to be His by direct contact with Christ then or by listening the prophets to whom the Word spoke.

 

[Jim]

And you're giving me the same old Church of Christ heresy. It's based primarily on legalism injected into the gospel of Christ.

Paul and Peter both speak of the fate of those who do not obey the gospel (Rom 10:16; 2 Thess 1:8; 1 Pet 4:17). That means, or certainly implies, that there is a requirement to obey the gospel. What do you think that might be? Just legalism injected into the gospel? You can call repenting, confessing and being baptized for the forgiveness of sin and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit heresy if you want; but you need to be really, really careful about that. Is believing in the gospel legalism injected into the gospel also? You remember, I hope, that Jesus said believing in Him is a work which means, of course, that faith is a work. It is not a work of law that Paul spoke against, but it is a work.

 

[MTMattie]

some were taken up to heaven in the OT ....

moses, enoch etc.... having met Christ and gone to paradise. Many souls met Christ in the OT... and came to be His by direct contact with Christ then or by listening the prophets to whom the Word spoke.

Not possible or Christ Jesus lied when he said to Nicodemus in John 3:13 ““No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

Or

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Paradise IS NOT heaven. For one thing... remember when Jesus told the thief on the cross ... 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus did not go to heaven on that day.... Not immediately ... you know that.

So Paradise is somewhere else. Some OTs called it Abrahams bosom....

Why dont you start a thread to open a discussion of where and what exactly, and why there is a Paradise.

 

[e v e]

Not possible or Christ Jesus lied when he said to Nicodemus in John 3:13 ““No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

Or

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Paradise IS NOT heaven. For one thing... remember when Jesus told the thief on the cross ... 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus did not go to heaven on that day.... Not immediately ... you know that.

So Paradise is somewhere else. Some OTs called it Abrahams bosom....

Why dont you start a thread to open a discussion of where and what exactly, and why there is a Paradise.

Christ there is talking about eden paradise once restored which has not yet happened though very soon.

 

[dwight92070]

Paul and Peter both speak of the fate of those who do not obey the gospel (Rom 10:16; 2 Thess 1:8; 1 Pet 4:17). That means, or certainly implies, that there is a requirement to obey the gospel. What do you think that might be? Just legalism injected into the gospel? You can call repenting, confessing and being baptized for the forgiveness of sin and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit heresy if you want; but you need to be really, really careful about that. Is believing in the gospel legalism injected into the gospel also? You remember, I hope, that Jesus said believing in Him is a work which means, of course, that faith is a work. It is not a work of law that Paul spoke against, but it is a work.

Romans 10:16 says nothing about the fate of those who do not obey the gospel. ("However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah say, 'Lord, who has believed our report?')"

2 Thess. 1:8 does speak of the retribution to those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As I have repeatedly said, I have never discouraged anyone from obeying Jesus, by getting baptized. In fact, I encourage that. The legalism is insisting that water baptism saves you - it does NOT. The legalism is going beyond what God says about baptism - making it a requirement for salvation. It is NOT. The legalism is changing the words of Mark 16:16 to read: He who has believed and has NOT been baptized shall be LOST. That is adding words and changing words in that verse and that is what you preach.

I never once called those things heresy. You're putting words into my mouth, just like you inject new words into Mark 16:16 and YOU need to be really, really careful about that. That's what makes your belief heretical.

Once again, I never said that believing in the gospel is legalism. I said that changing the requirements of the gospel for salvation IS LEGALISM. Requiring more from people than even God requires is legalism, which you and your ilk do.

Obviously, you do not know how to properly interpret Jesus' words - which may be why you are in a heresy to begin with. When He said, "If your hand (foot or eye) causes you to stumble, cut it off ..." was He speaking literally? Of course not. He did not expect us to cut our hands (feet, or eye) off, when we use them to sin. If He did, we would all have no hands, no feet and no eyes. Rather, He was making it clear that it really wasn't our hands, feet, or eyes, that cause us to sin - it was our hearts.

The same principle applies here. Jesus is not literally calling believing in Him - work. He knew, even as we should know, that believing is NOT a work. Rather Jesus is affirming that the "work" that God approves of, to be saved, is really NO work at all - it is believing in Jesus. THEN, AFTER WE DO THAT and after we're saved/born again, we are commanded to be zealous for good deeds, starting with water baptism. - Titus 2:14

You need to be able to discern when Jesus is speaking literally or figuratively or hyperbolically. He also uses what is called a "double negative". He speaks in ALL of those ways at different times.

Here's another example in that same passage in John 6:27. Jesus is speaking here: "Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, ..."

So if we take that LITERALLY, then we ALL need to stop working for food, right? Wrong, obviously Jesus is not saying that, He is using a "double negative" here. He is really saying, Do not only work for the food that perishes, but also for the food that endures to eternal life, ...

 

[Jim]

Romans 10:16 says nothing about the fate of those who do not obey the gospel. ("However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah say, 'Lord, who has believed our report?')"

I would offer that it clearly implies the fate of those who do not obey the gospel. It follows in the discussion there from verse 13, For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

[civic]

I would offer that it clearly implies the fate of those who do not obey the gospel. It follows in the discussion there from verse 13, For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Romans 10 says nothing about baptism. Are you saying water baptism is an essential part of the gospel ?

 

[Jim]

Romans 10 says nothing about baptism. Are you saying water baptism is an essential part of the gospel ?

Are you saying it isn't. That seems foolish. Of all of the demonstrations of one or more being saved in the book of Acts, baptism is mentioned more often than even believing.

 

[civic]

Are you saying it isn't. That seems foolish. Of all of the demonstrations of one or more being saved in the book of Acts, baptism is mentioned more often than even believing.

Acts was written for the history of the Apostles and the early church, not for theology. The Epistles written by the Apostles is where we get our doctrine from. The same with the Gospels.

 

[Jim]

Acts was written for the history of the Apostles and the early church, not for theology. The Epistles written by the Apostles is where we get our doctrine from. The same with the Gospels.

Are you saying that Luke, in writing the history of the Apostles and the early church, contradicted the doctrine written by the Apostles?

 

[civic]

Are you saying that Luke, in writing the history of the Apostles and the early church, contradicted the doctrine written by the Apostles?

No contradiction but you don’t interpret the rest of the NT through Acts it’s the other way around.

 

[Jim]

No contradiction but you don’t interpret the rest of the NT through Acts it’s the other way around.

There are plenty of scriptures in the rest of the NT that connects salvation with being baptized. I am sure you know what they are.

 

[dwight92070]

Are you saying it isn't. That seems foolish. Of all of the demonstrations of one or more being saved in the book of Acts, baptism is mentioned more often than even believing.

This is an example of someone who hopes his false teaching is correct and therefore he makes up "facts" from the scripture.

Let's see how many times that people are saved in Acts, where baptism is mentioned:

1. Acts 2:41 Pentecost
2. Acts 8:12 the Samaritans
3. Acts 8:13 Simon the Magician
4. Acts 8:37 Ethiopian eunuch
5. Acts 9:18 Saul
6. Acts 10:48 Cornelius
7. Acts 16:14 Lydia
8. Acts 16:31 the jailer
9. Acts 18:8 Crispus
10. Acts 19:5 Disciples at Ephesus

Okay, now let's see how many times that people are saved in Acts, where baptism is NOT mentioned:

1. Acts 4:4 crowd in Jerusalem - "many of those believed"
2. Acts 5:14 Christians in Jerusalem - "And all the more believers in the Lord, were constantly added to their number,"
3. Acts 6:7 "the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem,"
4. Acts 6:7 "and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith."
5. Acts 9:42 "and many (in Joppa) believed in the Lord."
6. Acts 11:21 preachers from Cyprus and Cyrene came to Antioch "... and a large number who believed turned to the Lord."
7. Acts 11:24 Barnabas preaches at Antioch "and considerable numbers were brought to the Lord."
8. Acts 13:12 the proconsul on the island of Cyprus believed
9. Acts 13:48 in Pisidian Antioch "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
10: Acts 14:1 In Iconium, "a large number of people believed,"
11. Acts 17:4 Thessalonica "and some of them were persuaded ... along with a large number of God-fearing Greeks and a number of leading women."
12. Acts 17:12 In Berea "many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men."
13. Acts 17:34 Mars hill sermon "some men joined him and believed."
14. Acts 19:18 Ephesus "many of those ... had believed"
15. Acts 28:24 Paul in Rome "Some were being persuaded by the things spoken,"

So Jim, will you retract your false claim now?

 

[dwight92070]

Acts was written for the history of the Apostles and the early church, not for theology. The Epistles written by the Apostles is where we get our doctrine from. The same with the Gospels.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God (this INCLUDES Acts and the GOSPELS) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

If you're not getting doctrine/theology from the Gospels and Acts, you're missing a TON of doctrine/theology.

I suspect the huge error of dispensationalism has something to do with your position.

 

[dwight92070]

There are plenty of scriptures in the rest of the NT that connects salvation with being baptized. I am sure you know what they are.

If you search for my topic with this title "All the Verses that Show Us Salvation can Occur Without Water Baptism", you will see that in Romans alone, there are 53 verses that show us this. I'm currently in 2 Corinthians, and so far there are 21 verses that show us this. I will be adding to it as time allows. But that's a total of 74 verses, so far, that speak of salvation, with NO connection to water baptism - and that's only Romans, 1 Cor. and a small section of 2 Cor.

Maybe you should make your list to show us the opposite?? Especially since there are "plenty of scriptures" that make that connection.

 

[dwight92070]

By the way, I could add the 15 verses listed in Acts in #994 to my current total of 74 verses, so that makes 89 verses, and I've just scratched the surface!!

 

[civic]

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God (this INCLUDES Acts and the GOSPELS) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

If you're not getting doctrine/theology from the Gospels and Acts, you're missing a TON of doctrine/theology.

I suspect the huge error of dispensationalism has something to do with your position.

I’m not saying theology is not in the hideous I said it was but what I did say any theology one wants to believe in Acts needs to be supported in the rest of the instruction to the church in the epistles. The book of Acts we see miracles were common then by the end of Acts they pretty much sizzle out.

 

[dwight92070]

"I’m not saying theology is not in the hideous I said it was"?? What???

So do you get doctrine/theology from the gospels?

 

[dwight92070]

If you look at the 10 verses listed in #994, where baptism is mentioned, NONE of them show us that water baptism is required for salvation.