Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[Titus]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9);

Ephesians 2:8-9,
Nowhere in this verse does it teach our belief.

The Greek has THE Faith which is definite article.
This makes faith not personal belief but the system of faith i.e. the gospel.

Therefore the verse reads,
- by Grace you have been saved by the gospel and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not a result of works lest any should boast

Paul said we receive Gods grace through the gospel not BELIEF ALONE AS DAN MISUNDERSTANDS THE VERSE.

God gives grace and God gives the gospel it is not from us, not of ourselves, not of our works otherwise men would boast.

Nowhere in this verse did Paul teach belief alone is what saves us but the gospel is what saves.

That gospel is rejected by Danthemailman,

Mark 16:15-16,
- go into all the world and preach the  gospel to every creature,
- he that believeth and is baptized will be saved he that believeth not will be damned

yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

Danthemailman admits that genuine faith has works.
Therefore faith absent of works cannot be a genuine faith!!!

Dan is trying to be saved by a dead faith that is not perfect not complete not obedient not justified and not geniune.

James 2:20,
- but do you want to know O foolish man that faith without works is dead


No one was ever saved with a dead faith.
Dan is trying to be Saved with a faith that is incomplete and dead.
He even admits it's not genuine.

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said: Ephesians 2:8-9,
Nowhere in this verse does it teach our belief.

The Bible makes it clear we are saved through belief/faith. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; etc..).

The Greek has THE Faith which is definite article.
This makes faith not personal belief but the system of faith i.e. the gospel.

Your belief and faith are in a system of works. A false gospel.

Therefore the verse reads,
- by Grace you have been saved by the gospel and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not a result of works lest any should boast

Ephesians 2:8,9 read - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. It's only by the grace of God by which we have been saved through faith in Christ (and not by works). Jesus Christ, His death, burial and resurrection is the means of our salvation and faith in Christ is the instrumental means of how we obtain salvation apart from works.

Paul said we receive Gods grace through the gospel not BELIEF ALONE AS DAN MISUNDERSTANDS THE VERSE.

Paul said we have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) (Faith plus what? Faith plus nothing. Faith alone) Paul also said that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) Believes plus what? Believes plus nothing. Belief alone). In Acts 15:7-9, Peter said - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. (Believe plus what? Believe plus nothing. Belief alone) So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Faith plus what? Faith plus nothing. Faith alone)

God gives grace and God gives the gospel it is not from us, not of ourselves, not of our works otherwise men would boast.

The Amplified version clears things up. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

Nowhere in this verse did Paul teach belief alone is what saves us but the gospel is what saves.

Paul taught that faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone saves in this verse. Grace is God's part and faith is our part, hence, faith rightly understood in Christ alone. Your false gospel of salvation by "water and works" cannot save but the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES saves. (Romans 1:16)

That gospel is rejected by Danthemailman,

I don't reject the gospel. I just don't believe your false gospel.

Mark 16:15-16,
- go into all the world and preach the  gospel to every creature,
- he that believeth and is baptized will be saved he that believeth not will be damned

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What happened to baptism in Romans 1:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

Danthemailman admits that genuine faith has works.
Therefore faith absent of works cannot be a genuine faith!!!

Genuine faith results in producing works. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack ever producing any resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

Dan is trying to be saved by a dead faith that is not perfect not complete not obedient not justified and not geniune.

Straw man argument. If your faith is not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then you have a dead faith no matter how many works that you attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:22-23) The object of my faith is Jesus Christ alone for salvation and my faith has not remained barren of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) The object of your faith is not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation but is also in works, which remains your Achilles heel. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

James 2:20,
- but do you want to know O foolish man that faith without works is dead

In regard to "faith being alone" or "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works, as your itching ears so desperately want to hear. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. We are saved by faith at its origin and not later, after we accomplish a check list of works.

No one was ever saved with a dead faith.

If the object of our faith is not Jesus Christ alone for salvation, (Ephesians 2:8; Galatians 2:16) then it's dead regardless. Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17) A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Sadly, we have many bad trees (make believers) in various false religions and cults who claim to be good trees (genuine believers) but they are deceived.

Dan is trying to be Saved with a faith that is incomplete and dead.
He even admits it's not genuine.

My faith is neither incomplete nor dead. Trusting in works for salvation instead of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation does not give you a complete faith but a spurious faith. James 2:22 is often misunderstood by works-salvationists. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In Romans 4:2-3, we read - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."

According to your misinterpretation of James 2:22, you have Abraham with a dead faith that cannot save him in Genesis 15:6 and Abraham remaining lost until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Apparently, you don't believe Genesis 15:6 or Romans 4:2-3 and it's all because you fail to believe the gospel which keeps you trusting in works for salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

You don't get it because you teach salvation by faith + works (contrary to Scripture - Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) and it's you who tries to force Scripture to "conform" to your biased church doctrine.

I do not teach "faith + works". As Scripture teaches, faith requires works to be real. Those are great verses that you cite here, but they do not help us understand what faith is, or what "works" are being discussed. Heb 11:1 defines faith as the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Then the writer goes on to describe many of the heros of the faith and the actions that perfected their faith and were the evidence and substance of that faith. Rom 10:9-10 tells us that there is for certain at least one work that is absolutely required to receive salvation. Acts 2:38 and Acts 3:19 tell us that there are also other actions that are required to receive salvation.

I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

You have harmonized the Scriptures you like with other Scriptures that say what you want to think they say to support your preconception, but when you ignore or redefine what other passages that would correct your interpretation say, then you are not PROPERLY harmonizing Scripture with Scripture.

Example below:
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

You are correct that man is not saved by works. But that does not mean that no works are required of man. They are required, not just after salvation is received, but also leading up to receiving it. Works are not just the fruit of faith, but also the soul, the life giving element of faith.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

Our works have no merit. Just as dipping in Jordan had no merit for Naaman, and giving her last cake to the prophet had no merit for the widow, and marching around the city of Jericho had no merit for the nation of Israel. Yet those actions of faith were absolutely required before the promised blessings were received by any of them.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

Certainly it is our faith in Christ alone that we are justified. Yet faith is not just a thought. Faith is not just "belief" (as it is commonly understood in American English). Faith, belief, is not real if it is not acted upon. If you hear the news and they tell you that the dam has broken and a flood is coming down the valley where you live. If you believe them, then you will get up, rush out of your house and get to high ground outside the valley. If you say you believe them but remain in your house, then you don't really believe, you don't really have faith in them, and you die when the flood reaches you. If there is no action, then there is no real, alive faith.

Jesus never knew these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were never saved. Hence, practice lawlessness because they were not children of God. (1 John 3:9,10)

Absolutely correct, yet they did many great works for Jesus, in His name, and thought that they were saved. They had believed in Him, they had served Him, they had honored Him, they confessed Him publicly as Lord, yet they remained lost because God never knew them. Why? Because they had not done what He said results in being known by Him.

In Matthew 7:21, we read - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Does "believes in Him" constitute all every last detail of what is required of us to receive His salvation? No, it is a very general phrase that denotes "faith". It does not denote the full extent of what is required of man to receive salvation. One small example of this (although still not the full extent of what is required) is Rom 10:9-10, which tells us that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord (publicly as is indicated in Matt 10:32-33) is a requirement for receiving salvation. That being the case, it is clear that while "works" do not save us, there are some that are absolutely necessary to receive salvation from God.

You have listed here a very select few verses that lead to a conclusion that you already believe. But when you consider the passages listed above, the preconception you have is destroyed, yet you continue to cling to it.

 

[mailmandan]

I do not teach "faith + works". As Scripture teaches, faith requires works to be real. Those are great verses that you cite here, but they do not help us understand what faith is, or what "works" are being discussed. Heb 11:1 defines faith as the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Then the writer goes on to describe many of the heros of the faith and the actions that perfected their faith and were the evidence and substance of that faith. Rom 10:9-10 tells us that there is for certain at least one work that is absolutely required to receive salvation.

Yes, you do teach faith + works and you just demonstrated it again in this post. The substance of things hoped for is what we place our faith in, which is the evidence of things not seen. These actions accomplished by these heroes of faith in the book of Hebrews were produced by or "out of" faith but these actions were not the very essence of their faith. They were the demonstrative evidence of their faith.

Take Noah for example. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)

In Romans 10:9-10, confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. Don't leave out verse 8. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. *You just contradicted yourself by saying you do not teach "faith + works" then you said, "Rom 10:9-10 tells us that there is for certain at least one work that is absolutely required to receive salvation." Gotcha!

Acts 2:38 and Acts 3:19 tell us that there are also other actions that are required to receive salvation.

Actions are works so you do teach salvation by faith + works yet you still remain in denial.

You have harmonized the Scriptures you like with other Scriptures that say what you want to think they say to support your preconception, but when you ignore or redefine what other passages that would correct your interpretation say, then you are not PROPERLY harmonizing Scripture with Scripture.

Isolating pet verses and building your biased doctrine on those pet verses while ignoring the rest of scripture that contradicts your biased interpretation of those pet verses, along with redefining what words mean is your method of hermeneutics--flawed hermeneutics.

You are correct that man is not saved by works. But that does not mean that no works are required of man. They are required, not just after salvation is received, but also leading up to receiving it. Works are not just the fruit of faith, but also the soul, the life giving element of faith.

OXYMORON and you are dead wrong! Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists would agree with you though.

Our works have no merit. Just as dipping in Jordan had no merit for Naaman, and giving her last cake to the prophet had no merit for the widow, and marching around the city of Jericho had no merit for the nation of Israel. Yet those actions of faith were absolutely required before the promised blessings were received by any of them.

More flawed logic in order to justify salvation by works.

Certainly it is our faith in Christ alone that we are justified. Yet faith is not just a thought. Faith is not just "belief" (as it is commonly understood in American English). Faith, belief, is not real if it is not acted upon. If you hear the news and they tell you that the dam has broken and a flood is coming down the valley where you live. If you believe them, then you will get up, rush out of your house and get to high ground outside the valley. If you say you believe them but remain in your house, then you don't really believe, you don't really have faith in them, and you die when the flood reaches you. If there is no action, then there is no real, alive faith.

There it is again. Salvation by faith + works. Why don't you spare me the rhetoric and just admit it.

Absolutely correct, yet they did many great works for Jesus, in His name, and thought that they were saved. They had believed in Him, they had served Him, they had honored Him, they confessed Him publicly as Lord, yet they remained lost because God never knew them. Why? Because they had not done what He said results in being known by Him.

They did not believe in Him unto salvation, so their service was in vain, along with their honor of Him and also their confession. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. (Matthew 7:23) See John 6:40 to what He said results in being known by Him and receiving eternal life. They were false converts who never placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Does "believes in Him" constitute all every last detail of what is required of us to receive His salvation? No, it is a very general phrase that denotes "faith". It does not denote the full extent of what is required of man to receive salvation. One small example of this (although still not the full extent of what is required) is Rom 10:9-10, which tells us that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord (publicly as is indicated in Matt 10:32-33) is a requirement for receiving salvation. That being the case, it is clear that while "works" do not save us, there are some that are absolutely necessary to receive salvation from God.

You have listed here a very select few verses that lead to a conclusion that you already believe. But when you consider the passages listed above, the preconception you have is destroyed, yet you continue to cling to it.

More works for salvation confusion on your part. Been there, done that. Prior to my conversion while attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I was confused as well and also trusted in works for salvation, just as you continue to do now.

 

[civic]

IN MY BOOK, Paul was Born again before he hit the ground since he acknowledges Jesus as LORD right there. And then there was the "Back side of the Desert" experience where he received his commission, and the knowledge for his ministry apparently FROM Jesus in his post ascention form.

That's my understanding also. "Baptism" is an ordinance, but (as it was in my case) changed / added nothing. I was saved, and infilled with the Holy Spirit in my bedroom that evening, and the baptism 4 days later changed nothing.

Yes I didn't get baptized until a year after the Lord saved me and changed my life.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, you do teach faith + works and you just demonstrated it again in this post. The substance of things hoped for is what we place our faith in, which is the evidence of things not seen.

Again, you read the Scriptures improperly, twisting what they say to fit your personal bias. Faith IS the substance of things hoped for. We do NOT place our faith in the substance of things hoped for. Faith IS the evidence of things not seen. Jesus has been seen and felt; He is not unseen, nor is He hoped for.

These actions accomplished by these heroes of faith in the book of Hebrews were produced by or "out of" faith but these actions were not the very essence of their faith. They were the demonstrative evidence of their faith.

No, Dan, the actions by the heros of the Faith were not produced "out of" faith. They were part of the faith of these men and women, completing and giving life to their faith.

Take Noah for example. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)

The writer of Hebrews couldn't have given an earlier example of Noah's faith, because that is the first example in Genesis given of his faith. Noah already had faith that he had demonstrated in his early life, by which he had found grace in the Lord's eyes. But the only thing we are told about his earlier faith is that by it he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And he had never seen rain in his life, no one had. So when God told him to build an Ark, he again trusted in God's word and built it without even knowing what rain was.

In Romans 10:9-10, confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. Don't leave out verse 8. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. *You just contradicted yourself by saying you do not teach "faith + works" then you said, "Rom 10:9-10 tells us that there is for certain at least one work that is absolutely required to receive salvation." Gotcha!

There is not "gotcha" in that. Read what God says, "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Both belief and confession result in salvation (righteousness being synonymous with salvation). So not just one thing (belief) leads to receiving salvation, but two things in this one verse. And yes, they are both in your mouth. But read the full context of that verse, "But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching"
What is the Word that is "near you, in your mouth and in your heart"? The "word of faith which we are preaching"! And what is that word of faith? "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".

Actions are works so you do teach salvation by faith + works yet you still remain in denial.

Not all actions are equal. Not all actions are works of merit. Many actions that we take are simply our duty to perform, and for them we receive no thanks, no praise, no profit. We do them because that is what our Lord told us to do, and doing what He commands is our duty (Luke 17:7-10).

OXYMORON and you are dead wrong! Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists would agree with you though.

You claim to believe in what God says in Scripture, yet you ignore and redefine clear Scripture. As pointed out above, Rom 10:9-10 is very clear that salvation is received only after the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord. The fact that you refuse to accept that truth demonstrates your refusal to take God at His word, and submit your will to His.

They did not believe in Him unto salvation, so their service was in vain, along with their honor of Him and also their confession. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. (Matthew 7:23)

What is the difference between "believing in Him" and "believing in Him unto salvation"? If we accept what you say, then we can never be sure we have "believed in Him unto salvation" until we stand before Him at Judgement. But He tells us to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure". We can't be sure of our calling and election if we can't be sure we have "believed in Him unto salvation".

See John 6:40 to what He said results in being known by Him and receiving eternal life. They were false converts who never placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

You are correct, these men never placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. They didn't submit to His will, through repentance and baptism. They gave lip-service to "believing" in Him, yet they never made Him their Lord.

 

[TomL]

As James says, faith is not real until it is completed and made perfect through action. Nothing at all happens just because of the mental aspects of faith without the physical actions of faith that complete it.

Um that is not what James states

if the faith was not real it would be shown as such by wrong actions or the lack of Godly action

But it must be real if it is to produce Godly action

 

[mailmandan]

Again, you read the Scriptures improperly, twisting what they say to fit your personal bias.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

Faith IS the substance of things hoped for. We do NOT place our faith in the substance of things hoped for. Faith IS the evidence of things not seen. Jesus has been seen and felt; He is not unseen, nor is He hoped for.

Have you personally seen and felt Jesus? It's about what Jesus has to offer (eternal life) and not just Jesus Himself. Faith is the substance or assurance of things hoped for, the evidence or conviction of things not seen. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7) Also, unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Only genuine believers have a hope that is certain. Make believers have an uncertain hope with their fingers crossed.

No, Dan, the actions by the heros of the Faith were not produced "out of" faith. They were part of the faith of these men and women, completing and giving life to their faith.

False. You make the same error that Roman Catholics make. You re-define faith to "include" works. Roman Catholics believe we are saved by faith "infused" with works and your church teaches we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Both churches error and teach salvation by faith + works, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Works are produced "out of" faith and are not the very essence of faith. This remains your Achilles heel. Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

The writer of Hebrews couldn't have given an earlier example of Noah's faith, because that is the first example in Genesis given of his faith. Noah already had faith that he had demonstrated in his early life, by which he had found grace in the Lord's eyes. But the only thing we are told about his earlier faith is that by it he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And he had never seen rain in his life, no one had. So when God told him to build an Ark, he again trusted in God's word and built it without even knowing what rain was.

What I shared with you still stands. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience by building the ark was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it.

There is not "gotcha" in that. Read what God says, "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Both belief and confession result in salvation (righteousness being synonymous with salvation). So not just one thing (belief) leads to receiving salvation, but two things in this one verse. And yes, they are both in your mouth. But read the full context of that verse, "But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching"
What is the Word that is "near you, in your mouth and in your heart"? The "word of faith which we are preaching"! And what is that word of faith? "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".

There certainly is a "gotcha" because you specifically stated that you don't teach faith + works then you backtracked and said, "Rom 10:9-10 tells us that there is for certain at least one work that is absolutely required to receive salvation." Just man up and admit it. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together, so it's not faith plus works. Confession here is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.

I've heard certain people (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Not all actions are equal. Not all actions are works of merit. Many actions that we take are simply our duty to perform, and for them we receive no thanks, no praise, no profit. We do them because that is what our Lord told us to do, and doing what He commands is our duty (Luke 17:7-10).

More flawed logic. Any actions that we add to salvation through faith would be works of merit because those works (in addition to Christ's finished work of redemption) then become the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. Luke 17:10 - So, you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty. This has nothing to do with obtaining salvation by unmerited works, yet I often hear folks who attend the church of Christ cite that verse and make that bogus argument.

You claim to believe in what God says in Scripture, yet you ignore and redefine clear Scripture.

Once again, that statement is the epitome of irony.

As pointed out above, Rom 10:9-10 is very clear that salvation is received only after the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord. The fact that you refuse to accept that truth demonstrates your refusal to take God at His word, and submit your will to His.

The fact that you refuse to accept that confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together demonstrates that you refuse to accept that truth and refusal take God at His word and submit your will to His. You turn "believes unto righteousness" into believes but still unrighteous and confession into a work for salvation. According to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 you have a dilemma. In your church of Christ 4 step plan of salvation confession precedes water baptism and you teach that salvation is not obtained until after baptism. So, how can one believe "unto righteousness" and confess "unto salvation" if one is not saved until after baptism which follows those steps in your plan?

What is the difference between "believing in Him" and "believing in Him unto salvation"? If we accept what you say, then we can never be sure we have "believed in Him unto salvation" until we stand before Him at Judgement. But He tells us to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure". We can't be sure of our calling and election if we can't be sure we have "believed in Him unto salvation".

You are correct, these men never placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. They didn't submit to His will, through repentance and baptism. They gave lip-service to "believing" in Him, yet they never made Him their Lord.

The difference between simply believing "mental assent" in Him and believing in Him unto salvation is the difference between simply believing in your head and believing in your heart. Simply believing in your head certain facts about Jesus (He exists, is the Son of God and His death, burial and resurrection happened) in of itself falls short of saving belief, which goes on to not only believe that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" but also trusts in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. See the difference? What are you trusting in for salvation? Jesus Christ alone or public confessions, getting water baptized? etc..

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).

These men in Matthew 7:22-23 obviously did not place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. They did not submit to His will in (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40) which means they did not truly repent "change their mind" and believe in Christ unto salvation by trusting in Him alone for salvation. Nothing is mentioned here whether or not they received water baptism. There are many people who attend various false religions and cults who have received water baptism (with the wrong intentions and for the wrong purpose) which certainly could be the case for them yet that sill does not mean they were saved. Their confession was a lip service confession from an unregenerate heart. Jesus never knew them.

 

[Doug Brents]

Um that is not what James states

if the faith was not real it would be shown as such by wrong actions or the lack of Godly action

But it must be real if it is to produce Godly action

James says that our works, complete/make perfect our faith (James 2:22). Thus, without action faith is incomplete and imperfect.
James says that we are justified by our works, and NOT faith only (James 2:24). Thus, faith by itself without works is not sufficient for justification.
James says that as the body without the soul is dead, so too is faith without works dead (James 2:26).

All three of these statements support the same point that James is making: Faith and works are both inextricably linked and are incomplete without the other. Faith without works is not sufficient to save you, because that "faith" is dead. Works without faith is not sufficient to save you, because you are doing the works for the wrong reason. Works do not earn salvation, but without works salvation is not received.

 

[Doug Brents]

That statement is the epitome of irony.

You said that "The substance of things hoped for is what we place our faith in, which is the evidence of things not seen." That is not what Scripture says that faith is. That is a twisting of Scripture to make it say what you want it to say. Scripture says that "faith IS the substance of things hoped for. Faith IS the evidence of things not seen. And this is consistent with what James says about faith as I detailed in post #89 above.

Have you personally seen and felt Jesus? It's about what Jesus has to offer (eternal life) and not just Jesus Himself.

If you are only into Jesus for "what Jesus has to offer", then you are into Him for the wrong reasons. He wants people to love Him because of who He is, not just what He can do for them.

Faith is the substance or assurance of things hoped for, the evidence or conviction of things not seen. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Faith is not just the ASSURANCE of things hoped for, or the CONVICTION of things not seen. As James makes very clear, works are the other side of the same coin as faith. Without one side of the coin, the other side of the coin doesn't really exist.

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7) Also, unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Only genuine believers have a hope that is certain. Make believers have an uncertain hope with their fingers crossed.

Your focus is on the wrong thing here. Yes, we have a certainty about our hope because God has never failed to fulfill His promises, for good or ill. But that is not what faith is. Faith is the SUBSTANCE of that hope. Faith is us acting as if we have that certainty. If there is not action, then we do not have that certainty.

False. You make the same error that Roman Catholics make. You re-define faith to "include" works. Roman Catholics believe we are saved by faith "infused" with works and your church teaches we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Both churches error and teach salvation by faith + works, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Works are produced "out of" faith and are not the very essence of faith. This remains your Achilles heel. Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

There is no such thing as "works salvation". It is a figment of your mind. There is also no such thing as salvation without any action at all. Rom 10:9-10 is very clear that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord "with the mouth" results in receiving salvation.

What I shared with you still stands. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience by building the ark was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it.

And without that demonstration of his faith, his faith would have been dead, useless, meaningless, and just as dead as he would be. No, his faith did not begin with building the Ark. His faith began with his trusting in God and doing what God commanded. That is why he found grace in God's sight, because he had been obeying and walking with God. What is walking with God if not doing what God says.

There certainly is a "gotcha" because you specifically stated that you don't teach faith + works then you backtracked and said, "Rom 10:9-10 tells us that there is for certain at least one work that is absolutely required to receive salvation." Just man up and admit it. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together, so it's not faith plus works. Confession here is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.

I have said many times that they must indeed be done chronologically at the same time. They are indeed chronologically together, but that does not mean that they are not two separate steps that must be done at the same time. Both belief and confession LEAD TO/RESULT IN salvation. It is not that belief comes before salvation, and then confession comes after salvation is received. Both come before salvation is received. So the "gotcha" is on you.

I've heard certain people (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

There is no such thing as believing unto righteousness without confession and baptism. You can believe all day long, but until you obey you don't really believe, your belief is in vain. Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him (Heb 5:9), not just to those you give lip service to Him.

And as for those who are mute, why is it that we must confess with the mouth? Because that is how communication for the vast majority of people is accomplished. That is why Scripture says that the tongue is a fire. But if your main communication method is not your mouth, but your hands, then it is your hands that constitute that fire, and your hands by which you must give confession.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord.

Yes, there is influence by the Holy Spirit that allows a person to confess Jesus as Lord, but that influence does not indicate salvation at that point. The Holy Spirit can and does move people's hearts long before He removes sin from their life.

This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that),

No, the demons do not acknowledge Jesus as Lord. They acknowledge that God is One (James 2:19), but they do not acknowledge Him as Lord, or they would obey Him.

but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

It is not just a "deep personal conviction", but a conviction so deep that it results in active obedience. No, simply believing in your head and saying some words does not result in salvation. But without believing and confessing you cannot receive salvation.

More flawed logic. Any actions that we add to salvation through faith would be works of merit because those works (in addition to Christ's finished work of redemption) then become the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

That is a false statement. Going back to the wheelbarrow across the Grand Canyon again, does sitting in the wheelbarrow move you across the Canyon? No. Only God can move you across the Canyon. There is no merit, no value, no moving the wheelbarrow in sitting in the wheelbarrow. But if you are not in the wheelbarrow when it gets moved across the Canyon, you don't get moved with it, you remain lost.

Luke 17:10 - So, you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty. This has nothing to do with obtaining salvation by unmerited works, yet I often hear folks who attend the church of Christ cite that verse and make that bogus argument.

It has everything to do with salvation. It is out duty to do what our Master commands. As Luke says in verse 9, the Master does not owe the servant thanks because he did what was commanded, He does not have to do anything. But He has promised to do certain things if we obey Him, and He is a Master of His word, so He does what He says.

The fact that you refuse to accept that confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together demonstrates that you refuse to accept that truth and refusal take God at His word and submit your will to His. You turn "believes unto righteousness" into believes but still unrighteous and confession into a work for salvation. According to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 you have a dilemma. In your church of Christ 4 step plan of salvation confession precedes water baptism and you teach that salvation is not obtained until after baptism. So, how can one believe "unto righteousness" and confess "unto salvation" if one is not saved until after baptism which follows those steps in your plan?

There is no dilemma there. All Scripture is equally correct and true. So if belief leads to salvation (Rom 10:9-10 and many others), and confession leads to salvation (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism is the point at which salvation is received (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5 and many others), then all of those have to be correct and true at the same time. If any one of them is not true, then Scripture contains a contradiction, but I believe that you agree with me that there are no contradictions in Scripture.

The difference between simply believing "mental assent" in Him and believing in Him unto salvation is the difference between simply believing in your head and believing in your heart. Simply believing in your head certain facts about Jesus (He exists, is the Son of God and His death, burial and resurrection happened) in of itself falls short of saving belief, which goes on to not only believe that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" but also trusts in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. See the difference? What are you trusting in for salvation? Jesus Christ alone or public confessions, getting water baptized? etc..

I, and everyone else who I know that accepts baptism as being required for salvation, trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. He alone has the power, authority, and perfection to exchange for my weakness and sin. He has given certain conditions upon which that exchange occurs. I do not trust in those conditions to save me. I trust in Him to be a God who keeps His word, and do what He said He would if I did what He commanded. Yes, "believing unto salvation" requires trust, and that trust is embodied in obedience to His commands that He said result in receiving His salvation.

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).

The cause of being in Christ is indeed faith. Faith is not the fruit of being saved. And faith requires action/works to be real and effective. It is not trust if there is no action of surrender and submission to the one you would call Master. And that submission must take the form that He commanded it to take, repentance, confession, and baptism.

These men in Matthew 7:22-23 obviously did not place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. They did not submit to His will in (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40) which means they did not truly repent "change their mind" and believe in Christ unto salvation by trusting in Him alone for salvation. Nothing is mentioned here whether or not they received water baptism.

Nothing about baptism needs to be said here. If they were baptized, then they just got wet and they never had their sins washed away, because they didn't really believe in Him. If they weren't baptized, then they never encountered the blood of Christ and had their sins washed away.

There are many people who attend various false religions and cults who have received water baptism (with the wrong intentions and for the wrong purpose) which certainly could be the case for them yet that sill does not mean they were saved. Their confession was a lip service confession from an unregenerate heart. Jesus never knew them.

That is true, but does not change the fact that there are many, many more who have given lip service confession of belief and not surrendered in baptism and Jesus also never knew them. Both are required. Both are commands of God that result in receiving salvation.

 

[dwight92070]

There are requirements for salvation, but not physical requirements. Repent and believe. Invisible to man, but not to God. Spiritual requirements in our hearts that only God sees.

Joel 2:13: "And rend your heart (invisible, spiritual) and not your garments (a visible work). Now return (repent) to the Lord your God, "

When it comes to salvation, God is not looking for your baptism in water (a visible work), He's looking for a repentant heart and a believing heart (an invisible, spiritual change) Then, after that, He is looking for the next step of obedience, water baptism, which ideally is the first good work done by the believer, which doesn't always happen right away, usually because of inadequate teaching. Baptism is a physical, visible, and thus public, sign of the invisible, spiritual work that only God can do in our hearts, in response to our repentance and belief.

 

[Doug Brents]

There are requirements for salvation, but not physical requirements. Repent and believe. Invisible to man, but not to God. Spiritual requirements in our hearts that only God sees.

Joel 2:13: "And rend your heart (invisible, spiritual) and not your garments (a visible work). Now return (repent) to the Lord your God, "

You say this in contradiction of the clear instruction in Rom 10:9-10.

When it comes to salvation, God is not looking for your baptism in water (a visible work), He's looking for a repentant heart and a believing heart (an invisible, spiritual change) Then, after that, He is looking for the next step of obedience, water baptism, which ideally is the first good work done by the believer, which doesn't always happen right away, usually because of inadequate teaching. Baptism is a physical, visible, and thus public, sign of the invisible, spiritual work that only God can do in our hearts, in response to our repentance and belief.

Again, this contradicts Scripture.
We die to sin in baptism (Rom 6:1-7), have sin cut from us in baptism (Col 2:11-14),
enter into the Kingdom of God through baptism (water and the Spirit)(John 3:5),
are washed clean and made pure through baptism (the washing of water through the Word)(Eph 5: 26),
put on Christ and are made sons and daughters of God through baptism (Gal 3:26-27),
receive salvation through baptism (1 Pet 3:21).
Baptism is the physical act of faith during which God sends the Holy Spirit to fulfill His promise to remove our sin and unite us to Himself.

 

[TomL]

James says that our works, complete/make perfect our faith (James 2:22). Thus, without action faith is incomplete and imperfect.
James says that we are justified by our works, and NOT faith only (James 2:24). Thus, faith by itself without works is not sufficient for justification.
James says that as the body without the soul is dead, so too is faith without works dead (James 2:26).

All three of these statements support the same point that James is making: Faith and works are both inextricably linked and are incomplete without the other. Faith without works is not sufficient to save you, because that "faith" is dead. Works without faith is not sufficient to save you, because you are doing the works for the wrong reason. Works do not earn salvation, but without works salvation is not received.

So according to you the thief on the cross should wind up in hell

Sorry but if faith is not alive it can produce no works.

Works do not make faith alive, but that can demonstrate that the faith was living.

 

[Doug Brents]

So according to you the thief on the cross should wind up in hell

No, the thief on the cross was promised Paradise before the New Covenant was made unalterable by Jesus' death. Up until His death, He could do as He wanted with His "goods", but at His death His will was made unalterable, as is any "last will and testament".

Sorry but if faith is not alive it can produce no works.

Works do not make faith alive, but that can demonstrate that the faith was living.

Whichever way you want to see it, certain actions/works (repentance, confession, and baptism) must come before salvation is received, because salvation is a result of these actions that God says lead to/result in salvation being received.

 

[TomL]

No, the thief on the cross was promised Paradise before the New Covenant was made unalterable by Jesus' death. Up until His death, He could do as He wanted with His "goods", but at His death His will was made unalterable, as is any "last will and testament".

Whichever way you want to see it, certain actions/works (repentance, confession, and baptism) must come before salvation is received, because salvation is a result of these actions that God says lead to/result in salvation being received.

Sorry no. That is stated nowhere in scripture and faith and repentance are not works

John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:51 (KJV 1900) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:54 (KJV 1900) — 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[civic]

Ephesians 2:8-9,
Nowhere in this verse does it teach our belief.

The Greek has THE Faith which is definite article.
This makes faith not personal belief but the system of faith i.e. the gospel.

Therefore the verse reads,
- by Grace you have been saved by the gospel and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not a result of works lest any should boast

Paul said we receive Gods grace through the gospel not BELIEF ALONE AS DAN MISUNDERSTANDS THE VERSE.

God gives grace and God gives the gospel it is not from us, not of ourselves, not of our works otherwise men would boast.

Nowhere in this verse did Paul teach belief alone is what saves us but the gospel is what saves.

That gospel is rejected by Danthemailman,

Mark 16:15-16,
- go into all the world and preach the  gospel to every creature,
- he that believeth and is baptized will be saved he that believeth not will be damned


Danthemailman admits that genuine faith has works.
Therefore faith absent of works cannot be a genuine faith!!!

Dan is trying to be saved by a dead faith that is not perfect not complete not obedient not justified and not geniune.

James 2:20,
- but do you want to know O foolish man that faith without works is dead


No one was ever saved with a dead faith.
Dan is trying to be Saved with a faith that is incomplete and dead.
He even admits it's not genuine.

no you are misrepresenting his position- a straw man

 

[civic]

That statement is the epitome of irony.

Have you personally seen and felt Jesus? It's about what Jesus has to offer (eternal life) and not just Jesus Himself. Faith is the substance or assurance of things hoped for, the evidence or conviction of things not seen. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7) Also, unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Only genuine believers have a hope that is certain. Make believers have an uncertain hope with their fingers crossed.

False. You make the same error that Roman Catholics make. You re-define faith to "include" works. Roman Catholics believe we are saved by faith "infused" with works and your church teaches we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Both churches error and teach salvation by faith + works, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Works are produced "out of" faith and are not the very essence of faith. This remains your Achilles heel. Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

What I shared with you still stands. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience by building the ark was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it.

There certainly is a "gotcha" because you specifically stated that you don't teach faith + works then you backtracked and said, "Rom 10:9-10 tells us that there is for certain at least one work that is absolutely required to receive salvation." Just man up and admit it. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together, so it's not faith plus works. Confession here is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.

I've heard certain people (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

More flawed logic. Any actions that we add to salvation through faith would be works of merit because those works (in addition to Christ's finished work of redemption) then become the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. Luke 17:10 - So, you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty. This has nothing to do with obtaining salvation by unmerited works, yet I often hear folks who attend the church of Christ cite that verse and make that bogus argument.

Once again, that statement is the epitome of irony.

The fact that you refuse to accept that confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together demonstrates that you refuse to accept that truth and refusal take God at His word and submit your will to His. You turn "believes unto righteousness" into believes but still unrighteous and confession into a work for salvation. According to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 you have a dilemma. In your church of Christ 4 step plan of salvation confession precedes water baptism and you teach that salvation is not obtained until after baptism. So, how can one believe "unto righteousness" and confess "unto salvation" if one is not saved until after baptism which follows those steps in your plan?

The difference between simply believing "mental assent" in Him and believing in Him unto salvation is the difference between simply believing in your head and believing in your heart. Simply believing in your head certain facts about Jesus (He exists, is the Son of God and His death, burial and resurrection happened) in of itself falls short of saving belief, which goes on to not only believe that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" but also trusts in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. See the difference? What are you trusting in for salvation? Jesus Christ alone or public confessions, getting water baptized? etc..

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).

These men in Matthew 7:22-23 obviously did not place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. They did not submit to His will in (Matthew 7:21; John 6:40) which means they did not truly repent "change their mind" and believe in Christ unto salvation by trusting in Him alone for salvation. Nothing is mentioned here whether or not they received water baptism. There are many people who attend various false religions and cults who have received water baptism (with the wrong intentions and for the wrong purpose) which certainly could be the case for them yet that sill does not mean they were saved. Their confession was a lip service confession from an unregenerate heart. Jesus never knew them.

ditto

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry no. That is stated nowhere in scripture and faith and repentance are not works

Rom 10:9-10 absolutely does state that a physical action must come before salvation is received. Your denial does not change the clear statement of Scripture.

John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Here are two errors that form the basis for much of your misunderstanding.
First, "believes" from the Greek "pistis" does not mean what we commonly understand in English. Pistis means "faith", not just an intellectual assent. And faith absolutely requires action or it is not real, not alive, not effective.
Second, you misquote John 3:36. The proper translation is, "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not [m]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
It is lack of obedience that is contrasted with belief, indicating that belief is not just intellectual assent, but also encompasses active obedience.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Notice the active, "come to Me". Not just sit there and wait for Me to come to you.

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So what you are saying here is that no one can be saved today, because no one in the last 2000 years has seen the Son. No, I jest, that is not what this verse means, nor do I believe that you think that.

John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:51 (KJV 1900) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:54 (KJV 1900) — 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

And again, "believes" is "pistis" which is faith, active and alive, that leads to everlasting life.

 

[TomL]

Rom 10:9-10 absolutely does state that a physical action must come before salvation is received. Your denial does not change the clear statement of Scripture.

So you believe if words are not spoken you cannot saved ?

Is that your position

Here are two errors that form the basis for much of your misunderstanding.
First, "believes" from the Greek "pistis" does not mean what we commonly understand in English. Pistis means "faith", not just an intellectual assent. And faith absolutely requires action or it is not real, not alive, not effective.

Um that does nothing at all to effect my position and I have never affirmed intellectual assent is all that is needed for salvation

So you start out speaking a falsehood

and nowhere do we read faith is dead until made alive

You are simply begging the question, extolling your theology

Second, you misquote John 3:36. The proper translation is, "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not [m]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
It is lack of obedience that is contrasted with belief, indicating that belief is not just intellectual assent, but also encompasses active obedience.

Um I quoted

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The KJV as it appears

further you cannot change this

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Inany case

ἀπειθέω impf. ἠπείθουν; 1 aor. ἠπείθησα (for ἀπιθέω [Hom.] since Aeschyl., Pla.; inscr.; pap.; LXX; Ep. Arist. 25; Jos., Bell. 2, 320, Vi. 109; Test. 12 Patr.) disobey, be disobedient (for the mng. disbelieve, be an unbeliever see 3 below); in our lit. the disobedience is always toward God or his ordinances (like Eur., Or. 31; Pla., Leg. 741D; Lucian, Dial. Deor. 8, 1; Dit., Syll.3 736, 40 [92 BC] τὸν δὲ ἀπειθοῦντα ἢ ἀπρεπῶς ἀναστρεφόμενον εἰς τὸ θεῖον μαστιγούντω οἱ ἱεροί; Dt 1:26; 9:23; Josh 5:6; Is 36:5; 63:10; Bar 1:18f).

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 82.

Notice the active, "come to Me". Not just sit there and wait for Me to come to you.

Irrelevant to the issue

Believe is active as well

So what you are saying here is that no one can be saved today, because no one in the last 2000 years has seen the Son. No, I jest, that is not what this verse means, nor do I believe that you think that.

Nope that is not what I saying at all

And again, "believes" is "pistis" which is faith, active and alive, that leads to everlasting life.

Again faith must be living if it is to produce fruit

 

[Doug Brents]

So you believe if words are not spoken you cannot saved ?

Is that your position

Yes, I believe that a public, verbal confession of Christ must be given for a person to be saved. I believe that is what this verse says. The practice I seen in many congregations of allowing people to remain in their seat, raise their hand and silently say a prayer does not result in Biblical salvation.

and nowhere do we read faith is dead until made alive

Faith is not "dead until made alive". Faith does not even exist, it is not real until it is made alive and real through action.

Um I quoted

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The KJV as it appears

further you cannot change this

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Inany case

ἀπειθέω impf. ἠπείθουν; 1 aor. ἠπείθησα (for ἀπιθέω [Hom.] since Aeschyl., Pla.; inscr.; pap.; LXX; Ep. Arist. 25; Jos., Bell. 2, 320, Vi. 109; Test. 12 Patr.) disobey, be disobedient (for the mng. disbelieve, be an unbeliever see 3 below); in our lit. the disobedience is always toward God or his ordinances (like Eur., Or. 31; Pla., Leg. 741D; Lucian, Dial. Deor. 8, 1; Dit., Syll.3 736, 40 [92 BC] τὸν δὲ ἀπειθοῦντα ἢ ἀπρεπῶς ἀναστρεφόμενον εἰς τὸ θεῖον μαστιγούντω οἱ ἱεροί; Dt 1:26; 9:23; Josh 5:6; Is 36:5; 63:10; Bar 1:18f).

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 82.

The KJV does not do justice to the second half of the verse. The word from Greek is:
ἀπειθῶν (apeithōn)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 544: To disobey, rebel, be disloyal, refuse conformity.
The contrast here is between one who has an active, obedient faith and one who is rebellious, disobedient, or inactive. This demonstrates that "believe" is not a passive mental exercise. It is actually faith, an active, obedient exercise.

Irrelevant to the issue

Believe is active as well

Not the way it is used in English, nor the way many people seem to understand it. If you agree that "believe" is active, then why are you arguing against the Biblical mandate that repentance, confession, and baptism are required to receive salvation? It is clear in the Scriptures.

Again faith must be living if it is to produce fruit

Actions of faith are not the fruit of faith. They are the soul of faith. Without action, faith does not exist, it is not real.