Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[mailmandan]

There is no self righteousness in complete surrender to God's will. He is the only one who can remove the stain of sin. He is the only one who can forgive sin. And He has told us under what conditions He will do so. Certainly, belief is necessary, and so is repentance, confession, and baptism. All of these things God has said lead to/result in receiving salvation. That does not mean that these things "earn" or "deserve" salvation. Turning to walk a different kind of life, publicly claiming Jesus as Lord, and getting pushed beneath water does not merit the life of the Son of God. How could it, unless you value the life of the God/Man so cheaply.

All of that if completely true, but not the complete truth. Absolutely we remain lost if we don't believe the Gospel. But that does not impact what it takes to receive salvation when we do believe. Belief is not the only qualification stated in Scripture for receiving salvation. It is the most frequent, but not the only one, and if it is the only one we accept then we make Scripture out to contain falsehoods.

Salvation by works culminates in works righteousness and stems from self righteousness and is not complete surrender to God's will. (John 6:40; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

 

[TomL]

You continually claim that "belief", with no action or anything else, is the only requirement to receive salvation. That makes the "belief" merely intellectual assent, not the faith that is required by Scripture.

Faith - pistis - same word

and no it doers not make it mere intellectual assents

You are tilting at windmills and railing at strawmen

But Scripture does say that water baptism is required to receive salvation. So yes, when "belief" is the only requirement stated, it encompasses all the other requirements like repentance, confession, and baptism.

Actually many verses show salvation accrues upon faith

And no it never states one cannot be saved without water baptism

Again, you use "believing" as if it means intellectual assent. It means to have an active faith and trust. Abram was justified because he exhibited his faith in God's promise. He did not just mentally accept that God would do what He said, but he acted as if it were already true.

Sorry you have been told that is not my belief. Continuing claiming that will show you are not interested in truth

 

[Doug Brents]

Salvation by works culminates in works righteousness and stems from self righteousness and is not complete surrender to God's will. (John 6:40; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Was Naaman cured from leprosy because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Did the walls of Jericho fall because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Was the widow who gave her last piece of bread to the prophet fed because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Did the widow fill all the jars with oil because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?

Faith requires, demands, is dead/non-existent without, works.

 

[Doug Brents]

Actually many verses show salvation accrues upon faith

And no it never states one cannot be saved without water baptism

Absolutely many verses show salvation is receive through faith. But yes, many verses state that we cannot be saved without water baptism.

Sorry you have been told that is not my belief. Continuing claiming that will show you are not interested in truth

You say that is not what you believe, but then you claim that faith does not require action. You can't have it both ways. Either belief/faith/pistis requires action or it is merely intellectual assent. If it is merely intellectual assent, then I am wrong, and there is no action required to receive salvation. But if faith requires action, then the many passages that I have pointed out to you that say that repentance, confession and baptism are required to receive salvation are true, and those actions are required to receive it.

 

[TomL]

Absolutely many verses show salvation is receive through faith. But yes, many verses state that we cannot be saved without water baptism.

Actually none are not

You assume that based upon the fallacy of negative inference

You say that is not what you believe, but then you claim that faith does not require action. You can't have it both ways. Either belief/faith/pistis requires action or it is merely intellectual assent. If it is merely intellectual assent, then I am wrong, and there is no action required to receive salvation. But if faith requires action, then the many passages that I have pointed out to you that say that repentance, confession and baptism are required to receive salvation are true, and those actions are required to receive it.

You are misrepresenting my claims again.

What I do state is a living faith will produce works.

 

[mailmandan]

Was Naaman cured from leprosy because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Did the walls of Jericho fall because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Was the widow who gave her last piece of bread to the prophet fed because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Did the widow fill all the jars with oil because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?

Faith requires, demands, is dead/non-existent without, works.

Nobody in your examples received eternal life based on these works, so works righteousness does not apply here. Faith requires belief, trust and reliance and works are the evidence of faith but not the origin or essence of faith.

 

[civic]

Nobody in your examples received eternal life based on these works, so works righteousness does not apply here. Faith requires belief, trust and reliance and works are the evidence of faith but not the origin or essence of faith.

Ditto fruit and good works are a result of salvation not a means of salvation, it proves one’s faith is living , alive not dead.

 

[mailmandan]

Ditto fruit and good works are a result of salvation not a means of salvation, it proves one’s faith is living , alive not dead.

That's exactly right.

 

[TomL]

Was Naaman cured from leprosy because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Did the walls of Jericho fall because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Was the widow who gave her last piece of bread to the prophet fed because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?
Did the widow fill all the jars with oil because of self/works righteousness, or by surrender to God's will?

Faith requires, demands, is dead/non-existent without, works.

So the moment you believe you had a dead faith?

 

[mailmandan]

So, the moment you believe you had a dead faith?

According to Doug's flawed logic a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith and works are the source of life in faith, which is like saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree and fruit is the source of life in the tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything and people can be physically alive but spiritually dead. It was God who made us (believers) alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:5-9) In verse 10, we read - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (source of life) unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit and not the other way around. Just like life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit and not the other way around.

 

[mailmandan]

All of that if completely true, but not the complete truth. Absolutely we remain lost if we don't believe the Gospel. But that does not impact what it takes to receive salvation when we do believe. Belief is not the only qualification stated in Scripture for receiving salvation. It is the most frequent, but not the only one, and if it is the only one we accept then we make Scripture out to contain falsehoods.

You still don't understand what it means to "believe" the gospel. Those who believe the gospel trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and not in moral self-reformation, lip service confession and water baptism for salvation. Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel. (Acts 20:21) Those who believe the gospel have the word of faith in their mouth and in their heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8) So, this confession is an expression of faith by the Holy Spirit and is not a work for salvation. (1 Corinthians 12:3) Water baptism "follows" believing the gospel and salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) Until you get this right and refuse to trust in your works based false gospel for salvation (which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) you don't believe the gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

 

[Doug Brents]

You are misrepresenting my claims again.

What I do state is a living faith will produce works.

A living faith is one that produces works. If there are no works, then the faith is dead. Just as man's body was not a living body (having a living spirit) before God breathed the breath of life into it, so too faith without works is not living faith. If "faith" does not produce works then it is not faith at all. The works must come before it is accounted as a living faith.

 

[TomL]

A living faith is one that produces works. If there are no works, then the faith is dead. Just as man's body was not a living body (having a living spirit) before God breathed the breath of life into it, so too faith without works is not living faith. If "faith" does not produce works then it is not faith at all. The works must come before it is accounted as a living faith.

Nope

Works reveal the condition of the faith; they do not establish it

 

[dwight92070]

"For we say, 'Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised ... " Romans 4:9-10

What is Paul's point? Well, I believe it's the same point that mailmandan, civic, TomL, and I are making. We can say:

Faith in Jesus was credited to us as righteousness. How then was it credited? While we were baptized, or not baptized? Not while we were baptized, but while we were not baptized; and we received the sign of baptism, a "seal" of the righteousness of the faith which we had while not being baptized.

So circumcision and baptism are in the same category - they are both good works that God commanded after we are saved, but neither of them can bring salvation to a person. Faith in God alone or faith in Jesus alone is what saves us.

So Doug, if you disagree, then please give us your interpretation of Romans 4:9-13, specifically how do you reconcile these verses with James 2:24?

 

[TomL]

According to Doug's flawed logic a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith and works are the source of life in faith, which is like saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree and fruit is the source of life in the tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything and people can be physically alive but spiritually dead. It was God who made us (believers) alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:5-9) In verse 10, we read - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (source of life) unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit and not the other way around. Just like life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit and not the other way around.

yep

He believes works establish a living faith.

 

[mailmandan]

yep

He believes works establish a living faith.

Yep. Which explains why Doug teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS instead of salvation through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed just as Doug does now and I even defined faith "as" obedience/works. It was not until I came to realize that faith in Jesus Christ (apart from works) saves, and that God imputes righteousness (apart from works - Romans 4:5-6) that I finally had my turning point and received Jesus Christ through faith and knew that I was saved. Praise God!

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[TomL]

Yep. Which explains why Doug teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS instead of salvation through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I believed just as Doug does now and I even defined faith "as" obedience/works. It was not until I came to realize that faith in Jesus Christ (apart from works) saves, and that God imputes righteousness (apart from works - Romans 4:5-6) that I finally had my turning point and received Jesus Christ through faith and knew that I was saved. Praise God!

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

Yes, absolutely, true faith will produce works. Works may be considered a barometer of the quality of our faith

 

[Doug Brents]

Nobody in your examples received eternal life based on these works, so works righteousness does not apply here. Faith requires belief, trust and reliance and works are the evidence of faith but not the origin or essence of faith.

Those examples are not of receiving eternal life. They are examples of how faith works, and how God relates to mankind. The specific requirements of faith have changed throughout history, but the requirement of active obedience to the commands of God have not changed. God has ALWAYS required active, obedient faith. There has never been a time when blessings were given without the active, obedient participation of the recipient.

 

[mailmandan]

Those examples are not of receiving eternal life. They are examples of how faith works, and how God relates to mankind. The specific requirements of faith have changed throughout history, but the requirement of active obedience to the commands of God have not changed. God has ALWAYS required active, obedient faith. There has never been a time when blessings were given without the active, obedient participation of the recipient.

It's one thing to receive a blessing based on obedience/works and it's another thing to receive the free gift of eternal life through faith, not works. It's obviously actions/obedience/works that you are trusting in for salvation instead of TRUSTING IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. You trust in what you DO in order to help Jesus Christ save you instead of trusting exclusively in what Jesus Christ has DONE to save you.

 

[mailmandan]

I was once in a discussion several years ago on a Christian forum with someone who attends the church of Christ, and I will never forget what he said to me. Here is his statement below:

"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."

Notice the key word there "help" save us. Also, the saved by "these" works and just not "those" works flawed argument is popular with Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists as well.