Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[Doug Brents]

Actually Acts 8:36 doesn't link any of that to salvation at all. I guess you must have read that in there somehow.

Correct, but Doug said it does, so apparently HE read that in there somehow.

Now I'll answer your question:

You directed your question to these two statements that I made: Doug, Acts 8:36 does NOT link salvation with water. Since the eunuch WAS saved, he rightly asked to be baptized.

Where in Acts 8 do you read that? Answer -- Nowhere, you just made it up to suit your false ideas.

I'm assuming your question is specifically referring to my 2nd statement = Since the eunuch was saved, he rightly asked to be baptized.
My answer? I never suggested that I READ that in Acts 8, except for "he... asked to be baptized." So that leaves my comment, "Since the eunuch was saved." That is obvious, since he admitted that he believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and we know from between 100-200 verses, that if a person believes that, they are saved. You can see those verses by getting on my new post:
All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism

I am in the process of adding more verses, since there are so many, between 100-200 verses.

Acts 8:36 demonstrates that water baptism was part of the Gospel teaching of the original disciples right from the very beginning. It is not "Spirit baptism" that was taught, but water baptism. And as Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 state, the purpose of water baptism was "in order to receive forgiveness of sins". No, Acts 8:36 does not link water baptism with salvation, other passages do that. The purpose of referencing Acts 8:36 is to prove that it was water baptism that was in view, not "Spirit baptism".

It is water baptism that is done in order for us to receive forgiveness of sin/salvation.

As for the 100-200 verses that only mention "belief", those passages are all true, but they do not stand alone in Scripture. All the passages that link salvation to things other than "belief only" must also be included in our doctrine of salvation. If you exclude them from consideration, you make Scripture out to contain lies, and we all agree that Scripture does not contain lies. So you can stop wasting your time listing all the verses that only mention "believe" as a condition for receiving salvation. We all agree that belief is necessary. But what you must come to the realization of, Dwight, is that belief/faith is not the only condition for receiving salvation. James 2:24 is VERY clear on this point. "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." We are declared to be righteous by God, made righteous through His Son's blood, by our actions of obedience along with our belief/faith, and not by our belief alone.

 

[dwight92070]

The old Faith Alone nonsense, something the Bible never says accept to rebut it. Faith is a condition, obviously, but not the only condition.

The only nonsense is your ignoring those 100-200 verses, including Acts 10:43, all of which state, that faith is the ONLY condition for salvation. In a small number of them, faith may not be directly mentioned, but it is strongly implied.
Rather you choose to look at the standard Church of Christ go-to verses, so you can misinterpret them to mean what you want them to, instead of what they really mean.
The words "Faith Alone" may not be used in those verses, but the concept of faith alone is paramount in them. In fact "faith alone" is one of Paul's main themes throughout his letters. Salvation is a gift of God, given by grace through faith. It does not come by works, neither circumcision, baptism, confession, or any other good work.

 

[dwight92070]

And what you must realize, Doug, is that James 2:24 has nothing to do with works done to GET SAVED - rather is speaks of works performed by a man who had already been saved close to 50 years - Abraham, when he offered up Isaac. In offering up his son, Abraham was displaying the faith that he still possessed, even after 50 years of walking with God.
Nobody is denying that water baptism was part of the gospel teaching - it goes way back to John 4:1, when new disciples of Jesus were baptized by His disciple. But the scripture nowhere teaches that water baptism saves us. It's only by ignoring the many verses about "faith alone" and misinterpreting verses that SEEM to indicate otherwise, but really don't - that you come up with your false teaching.

 

[Doug Brents]

And what you must realize, Doug, is that James 2:24 has nothing to do with works done to GET SAVED - rather is speaks of works performed by a man who had already been saved close to 50 years - Abraham, when he offered up Isaac. In offering up his son, Abraham was displaying the faith that he still possessed, even after 50 years of walking with God.

Faith is faith. The same faith is needed after we are saved as is necessary in order to become saved, and faith without action cannot bring salvation. Just as Eph 2:8-9 says, we are saved through faith; which means that faith, alive and active, must be present BEFORE salvation is received. If there is no action, then the "faith" one claims to have is not real and salvation is not received.

Nobody is denying that water baptism was part of the gospel teaching - it goes way back to John 4:1, when new disciples of Jesus were baptized by His disciple. But the scripture nowhere teaches that water baptism saves us.

1 Pet 3:21 says it does. So then, you don't believe that Peter's letters are Scripture? No, Peter's letters are certainly Scripture, and so it is baptism in water that saves us, by the action of the Holy Spirit to give us a new, clean conscience through the power of Jesus' blood.

It's only by ignoring the many verses about "faith alone" and misinterpreting verses that SEEM to indicate otherwise, but really don't - that you come up with your false teaching.

All the "faith alone" verses are just as true as all the passages that show other things are also required to receive salvation. You would have us believe that Acts 3:19 is a lie, that we don't have to repent in order to be saved. And that Rom 10:9-10 is a lie, that we don't have to believe and confess Jesus as Lord with our mouth in order to be saved. And that Acts 2:38 is also a lie, that we don't have to repent and be baptized in order to be forgiven. These are very clear passages that have a very clear message, but you want to turn them into lies, because you are not comfortable with God's command that we must take action in order to receive His gift. I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are completely wrong. We MUST take the actions God gave us to take in order to receive His gift. Anything less, and we remain out in the cold (or flames of Hell) instead of going to Heaven with Him.

 

[Jim]

The only nonsense is your ignoring those 100-200 verses, including Acts 10:43, all of which state, that faith is the ONLY condition for salvation. In a small number of them, faith may not be directly mentioned, but it is strongly implied.

Not a single one of those verses state that faith is the only condition for salvation. You know that and I know that.

 

[dwight92070]

Faith is faith. The same faith is needed after we are saved as is necessary in order to become saved, and faith without action cannot bring salvation. Just as Eph 2:8-9 says, we are saved through faith; which means that faith, alive and active, must be present BEFORE salvation is received. If there is no action, then the "faith" one claims to have is not real and salvation is not received.

Jesus told the Jews to "work for the food that endures to eternal life." John 6:29 SO WE KNOW THAT WHATEVER HE SAYS NEXT WILL BE WHAT IS REQUIRED OF ALL OF US TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE OR TO BE SAVED. When they asked "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Your answer to them would be "Repent, believe, confess Him as Lord, and be baptized", because faith without works is dead.
But what work did Jesus tell them to do?

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." By the way, did you notice that NO BAPTISM WAS REQUIRED TO BE SAVED HERE? - EVEN THOUGH ALL NEW DISCIPLES OF JESUS WERE BAPTIZED - John 4:1

1 Pet 3:21 says it does. So then, you don't believe that Peter's letters are Scripture? No, Peter's letters are certainly Scripture, and so it is baptism in water that saves us, by the action of the Holy Spirit to give us a new, clean conscience through the power of Jesus' blood.

Peter is saying it is a figure of salvation, NOT the actual salvation. In case anyone still doesn't see it, he clarifies it even more, "NOT the removal of the filth of the flesh", which is what salvation is, the removal of the old sinful man. Peter is saying that that does NOT happen in water baptism = it must happen before baptism.

All the "faith alone" verses are just as true as all the passages that show other things are also required to receive salvation. You would have us believe that Acts 3:19 is a lie, that we don't have to repent in order to be saved. And that Rom 10:9-10 is a lie, that we don't have to believe and confess Jesus as Lord with our mouth in order to be saved. And that Acts 2:38 is also a lie, that we don't have to repent and be baptized in order to be forgiven. These are very clear passages that have a very clear message, but you want to turn them into lies, because you are not comfortable with God's command that we must take action in order to receive His gift. I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are completely wrong. We MUST take the actions God gave us to take in order to receive His gift. Anything less, and we remain out in the cold (or flames of Hell) instead of going to Heaven with Him.

Acts 3:19 says to repent, which is NOT a work. It is the "other side of the coin" from "believe". If you truly do one, you will automatically do the other. Jesus said, "Repent, and believe." neither of which are works - except works of the heart. By the way, did you notice that water baptism is NOT even mentioned here?


Romans 10:9-10 does not make your case either. You insist that if a person believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, that they will be saved, according to these verses. But wait a minute. Did you once again notice that water baptism is not even mentioned here? In fact, I'll be adding these verses to my list of "salvation without baptism".

Acts 2:38 Peter is NOT saying that baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins here. Forgiveness of sins only happens when one repents and believes, just as all other verses tell us. This verse is no exception. You are misinterpreting this verse.

If we have to do some type of physical work to receive His spiritual gift of salvation, then it really is not a spiritual gift at all. I DID the spiritual work that Jesus requires of all of us, in order to inherit eternal life (in John 6:29) I believed in Jesus!

Stop wasting my time? You would like that, wouldn't you? Tell me, how many of those verses have you actually read? Or are you just ignoring the majority of verses on this very topic that we are discussing? If you are, then you're not being honest with God or man.

 

[dwight92070]

Not a single one of those verses state that faith is the only condition for salvation. You know that and I know that.

Actually you and I both know that all of them say that. Tell me that the following verse does not state that - and I will say that you are irrationally in denial of the truth, because you don't want to admit it.

"But to the one who does not work (he does not get circumcised, get baptized, he does not verbally confess Jesus), but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5

Tell me, what additional condition does Paul say is required here "for the one ... who believes in Him" in order for him to be saved? You're the one saying that faith is not the only condition - so tell me what additional condition does Paul require here in verse 5?

 

[synergy]

Actually you and I both know that all of them say that. Tell me that the following verse does not state that - and I will say that you are irrationally in denial of the truth, because you don't want to admit it.

"But to the one who does not work (he does not get circumcised, get baptized, he does not verbally confess Jesus), but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5

Tell me, what additional condition does Paul say is required here "for the one ... who believes in Him" in order for him to be saved? You're the one saying that faith is not the only condition - so tell me what additional condition does Paul require here in verse 5?

How to harmonize Paul and James?
Tell me the audience of Paul in the Book of Romans and the audience of James in the Book of James.

 

[dwight92070]

How to harmonize Paul and James?
Tell me the audience of Paul in the Book of Romans and the audience of James in the Book of James.

James is referring to persons who were already saved, stating that their works should display their faith. We know that because one of his prime examples was Abraham offering up Isaac. It is estimated that Abraham had walked with God about 50 years at that time. Also James mentions that Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness - that is a reference to Genesis 15, when God told him that his seed would be as many as the stars. At that point, he had walked with God about 10 years.

Paul, on the other hand, very often was referring to faith required to be saved - especially in Romans, like Romans 4:5. and many others (See my post "All the Verses that Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism".

So there's no contradiction. Other than that understanding, the two authors would be in direct contradiction to one another. Even the baptismal regeneration (BR) interpretation does not solve the contradiction, because James would be happy, it seems, with showing ANY good works, because he even referred to feeding and clothing the poor, which would prove that one had faith. But the BR people won't have that - they MUST have specific good works - verbal confession and water baptism.

Regarding the audience in Romans and audience of James, that information is readily available - you tell me.

 

[synergy]

James is referring to persons who were already saved, stating that their works should display their faith. We know that because one of his prime examples was Abraham offering up Isaac. It is estimated that Abraham had walked with God about 50 years at that time. Also James mentions that Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness - that is a reference to Genesis 15, when God told him that his seed would be as many as the stars. At that point, he had walked with God about 10 years.

James refers to the OT Saints as being justified in OT times, not yet saved. Nobody is saved apart from the Cross.

Paul, on the other hand, very often was referring to faith required to be saved - especially in Romans, like Romans 4:5. and many others (See my post "All the Verses that Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism".

Paul also mentioned the vital importance of good works, aligning good works with eternal life, but Paul did not go as far as James did on the topic of good works. Why? I explain in my last paragraph below.

(Rom 2:7) indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life.

So there's no contradiction. Other than that understanding, the two authors would be in direct contradiction to one another. Even the baptismal regeneration (BR) interpretation does not solve the contradiction, because James would be happy, it seems, with showing ANY good works, because he even referred to feeding and clothing the poor, which would prove that one had faith. But the BR people won't have that - they MUST have specific good works - verbal confession and water baptism.

Regarding the audience in Romans and audience of James, that information is readily available - you tell me.

Paul was addressing an audience that was overwelmingly Gentile. They came from backgrounds that contained pagan works. James on the other hand was addressing an audience that was overwelmingly formerly Jewish. They came from a background that contained multiple accounts of faithful good works. Therefore, James was able to focus on the value of good works whereas Paul's hands were tied.

 

[Jim]

Actually you and I both know that all of them say that. Tell me that the following verse does not state that - and I will say that you are irrationally in denial of the truth, because you don't want to admit it.

"But to the one who does not work (he does not get circumcised, get baptized, he does not verbally confess Jesus), but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5

Tell me, what additional condition does Paul say is required here "for the one ... who believes in Him" in order for him to be saved? You're the one saying that faith is not the only condition - so tell me what additional condition does Paul require here in verse 5?

The real question you need to ask yourself is what it means to "have faith". I like Jordan Peterson's answer when asked if he believes in God. He says, "How can you say you believe in God and then not do what He says?" Thus when God says, through Peter, "be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins", and you say, "No, baptism for the forgiveness of your sins is not necessary", can you really claim that you believe in God, that you have the faith through which you will be saved? I don't think so.

You referenced Romans 4:5 concerning Abraham's faith. Hebrews 11, the Bible chapter on faith, says, Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

James speaks of Abraham's faith as well. He says, Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; :23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Can you really claim that you have the faith that saves and then declare that baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not necessary? Again, I don't think so.

 

[Jim]

Tell me, what additional condition does Paul say is required here "for the one ... who believes in Him" in order for him to be saved? You're the one saying that faith is not the only condition - so tell me what additional condition does Paul require here in verse 5?

Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak about not obeying the gospel. That means, or at least implies, that there is the need to obey the gospel. So, I would ask you what it means to obey the gospel. Does "obey the gospel" mean "only believe"?

 

[Doug Brents]

Acts 3:19 says to repent, which is NOT a work. It is the "other side of the coin" from "believe". If you truly do one, you will automatically do the other. Jesus said, "Repent, and believe." neither of which are works - except works of the heart. By the way, did you notice that water baptism is NOT even mentioned here?

I did notice that it is not mentioned here, but as I have noted before that fact is irrelevant. Repentance is the mental AND physical turning away from sin and toward God. Its beginning may be purely mental, but its application demands the physical cessation of sinful actions; thus it is also an action/work. But either way, it is something that we must do (mentally and/or physically) in order to receive forgiveness and salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 does not make your case either. You insist that if a person believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, that they will be saved, according to these verses. But wait a minute. Did you once again notice that water baptism is not even mentioned here? In fact, I'll be adding these verses to my list of "salvation without baptism".

LOL, Dwight, I am not making the case for baptism with these verses. I am making the case that a physical, human action is REQUIRED in order to receive salvation, with completely destroys the "belief only" false doctrine. There is, in fact, at least one physical action that MUST be done before salvation is received. But this is not the only verse which says that there is a physical action that must be done, so confession is not the only action necessary to receive salvation.

Acts 2:38 Peter is NOT saying that baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins here. Forgiveness of sins only happens when one repents and believes, just as all other verses tell us. This verse is no exception. You are misinterpreting this verse.

Acts 2:38 is very clear that repentance AND baptism are both required IN ORDER TO RECEIVE forgiveness of sin. Forgiveness of sins happens during baptism when repentance and confession of Jesus as Lord have both been done already. All three are required for salvation to occur.

If we have to do some type of physical work to receive His spiritual gift of salvation, then it really is not a spiritual gift at all. I DID the spiritual work that Jesus requires of all of us, in order to inherit eternal life (in John 6:29) I believed in Jesus!

Did Naaman earn cleansing from leprosy because he dipped in Jordan seven times? Did Israel earn the taking of Jericho because they marched around the city? Did the widow earn food through the famine because she gave her last cake to the prophet? No. These actions of faith did not earn them anything, but they would not have received the blessings promised if they had not done the actions required. It is the same with salvation. We are promised a blessing if we show certain actions of faith, but if those actions of faith are not shown then salvation is not received.

Stop wasting my time? You would like that, wouldn't you? Tell me, how many of those verses have you actually read? Or are you just ignoring the majority of verses on this very topic that we are discussing? If you are, then you're not being honest with God or man.

I have read them all, many times. But they don't change anything in this discussion. They only tell one of the requirements that God made for us to receive salvation. If you only accept those "100-200" verses but ignore the ones that I have posted that state other thing besides "belief only", then you make Scripture out to contain lies, and you completely miss salvation.

 

[Jim]

Acts 2:38 Peter is NOT saying that baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins here. Forgiveness of sins only happens when one repents and believes, just as all other verses tell us. This verse is no exception. You are misinterpreting this verse.

Of course, Peter is saying that baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins. That is what baptism is for. Even John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. It was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The "for" in both cases is the Greek "eis" indicating the point reached. It is a baptism "in order to receive" forgiveness of sins. The repentant believer is baptized in order to receive the forgiveness of his sins. He at the same time is given the gift of the Holy Spirit. And there are no verses in the NT that contradict Peter's statement. There is no statement in the NT that says that baptism is not necessary.

 

[dwight92070]

James refers to the OT Saints as being justified in OT times, not yet saved. Nobody is saved apart from the Cross.

Paul also mentioned the vital importance of good works, aligning good works with eternal life, but Paul did not go as far as James did on the topic of good works. Why? I explain in my last paragraph below.

(Rom 2:7) indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life.

Paul was addressing an audience that was overwelmingly Gentile. They came from backgrounds that contained pagan works. James on the other hand was addressing an audience that was overwelmingly formerly Jewish. They came from a background that contained multiple accounts of faithful good works. Therefore, James was able to focus on the value of good works whereas Paul's hands were tied.

Romans 10:13 Paul is quoting Joel 2:32 "for whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Deut. 32:15 "Then Israel forsook God who made him, and scorned the Rock of his salvation.."
1 Samuel 2:1 Hannah prayed: "My heart exults in the Lord; my horn is exalted in the Lord, my mouth speaks boldly against my enemies, because I rejoice in Your salvation."
2 Samuel 22:3 "My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; my Savior, You save me from violence."
2 Samuel 22:36 "You have also given me the shield of Your salvation, ..."
also verse 47 "The Lord lives, and blessed by my rock; and exalted be God, the rock of my salvation, ..."
Job 13:16 "This also will be my salvation, for a godless man may not come before His presence."

Salvation is mentioned over 110 times in the Old Covenant, as I have previously stated. Yes, many of those times refer to being saved from enemies, but many just simply refer to the salvation of their souls, such as Paul's reference to Joel 2:32 above.

All the Old Covenant saints were saved the same way we are - by grace through faith in God or in Jesus. Even though they did not know about the cross, they were still saved because of the cross.

 

[dwight92070]

Of course, Peter is saying that baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins. That is what baptism is for. Even John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. It was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The "for" in both cases is the Greek "eis" indicating the point reached. It is a baptism "in order to receive" forgiveness of sins. The repentant believer is baptized in order to receive the forgiveness of his sins. He at the same time is given the gift of the Holy Spirit. And there are no verses in the NT that contradict Peter's statement. There is no statement in the NT that says that baptism is not necessary.

I never said that baptism was not necessary. I myself was baptized and I have always said that Jesus commands that His disciples be baptized. I am saying that salvation is necessary before baptism, which is always the order described in scripture. Repent, believe, receive forgiveness, receive the Holy Spirit, then get baptized in water.

 

[Doug Brents]

I never said that baptism was not necessary. I myself was baptized and I have always said that Jesus commands that His disciples be baptized.

You are correct, it is absolutely commanded as Matt 28:19 states.

I am saying that salvation is necessary before baptism, which is always the order described in scripture.

Salvation cannot happen before baptism, because it is in baptism (in water (1 Pet 3:21) that our sins are removed and we are made children of God (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27). We cannot be saved while our sins are still on us, for that is what we are being saved from.

Repent, believe, receive forgiveness, receive the Holy Spirit, then get baptized in water.

The order, as Scripture portrays it, is:
1. Hear the Gospel message.
2. Believe (express intellectual acceptance) of the truth of the Gospel message. There is no reason to repent if you don't believe the Gospel message.
3. Repent and confess Jesus as Lord (these can be done in either order, but are both required before moving on to step 4).
4. Be baptized into Christ where sins are cut from you (Col 2:11-14), you are made spotless (Gal 3:26-27), you are saved (1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16), and you receive the Holy Spirit indwelling your heart.

 

[dwight92070]

I did notice that it is not mentioned here, but as I have noted before that fact is irrelevant. Repentance is the mental AND physical turning away from sin and toward God. Its beginning may be purely mental, but its application demands the physical cessation of sinful actions; thus it is also an action/work. But either way, it is something that we must do (mentally and/or physically) in order to receive forgiveness and salvation.

[Dwight] Well then, you are directly contradicting what Paul said in Romans 4:5, and many other places. Paul says that you cannot do ANY work to be saved.

LOL, Dwight, I am not making the case for baptism with these verses. I am making the case that a physical, human action is REQUIRED in order to receive salvation, with completely destroys the "belief only" false doctrine. There is, in fact, at least one physical action that MUST be done before salvation is received. But this is not the only verse which says that there is a physical action that must be done, so confession is not the only action necessary to receive salvation.

{Dwight} No, Romans 4:5 says NO work can save you.

Acts 2:38 is very clear that repentance AND baptism are both required IN ORDER TO RECEIVE forgiveness of sin. Forgiveness of sins happens during baptism when repentance and confession of Jesus as Lord have both been done already. All three are required for salvation to occur.

{Dwight] Again, a contradiction of Romans 4:5

Did Naaman earn cleansing from leprosy because he dipped in Jordan seven times? Did Israel earn the taking of Jericho because they marched around the city? Did the widow earn food through the famine because she gave her last cake to the prophet? No. These actions of faith did not earn them anything, but they would not have received the blessings promised if they had not done the actions required. It is the same with salvation. We are promised a blessing if we show certain actions of faith, but if those actions of faith are not shown then salvation is not received.

{Dwight] Okay, so feed and clothe the poor as James suggests to prove your faith. You're always quoting James 2, but for some reason, you don't advocate obeying what he says. Faith without obedience is dead.

I have read them all, many times. But they don't change anything in this discussion. They only tell one of the requirements that God made for us to receive salvation. If you only accept those "100-200" verses but ignore the ones that I have posted that state other thing besides "belief only", then you make Scripture out to contain lies, and you completely miss salvation.

[Dwight] Actually, the lies are coming from those who say that millions of believers who have received salvation and have been baptized, are still, nonetheless, NOT SAVED, because they didn't believe the right things at their baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well then, you are directly contradicting what Paul said in Romans 4:5, and many other places. Paul says that you cannot do ANY work to be saved.

No, he did not. He said that there is no work you can do that will EARN salvation, not that there is no work necessary to RECEIVE salvation. If he did say that, then he would be creating a contradiction in Scripture (with Rom 10:9-10), and there are no contradictions in Scripture.

No, Romans 4:5 says NO work can save you.

Correct, there is no work that can save you. But confession of Jesus as Lord does not save you, and neither does repentance, or baptism. Those are simply the conduits through which God pours His blessing onto us, and without which there is no conduit for His blessing to flow. Did the water of Jordan cleanse Naaman? No. But if he had not dipped as he was told he would not have been cleansed.

Again, a contradiction of Romans 4:5

No, no contradiction.

Okay, so feed and clothe the poor as James suggests to prove your faith. You're always quoting James 2, but for some reason, you don't advocate obeying what he says. Faith without obedience is dead.

As you, or someone, pointed out, the actions he mentions (feeding the hungry, clothing the cold, etc.) are not actions that Scripture says "lead to/result in" receiving salvation. Repentance (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and being baptized (Acts 2:38, Matt 28:19, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14) are actions that He says lead to/result in receiving salvation. So, while I do endorse the actions that James refers to, I do not reference them in terms of receiving salvation because they do not fit that application.

Actually, the lies are coming from those who say that millions of believers who have received salvation and have been baptized, are still, nonetheless, NOT SAVED, because they didn't believe the right things at their baptism.

I have never said that at all. I am not God, and so I cannot say if a person who doesn't believe that baptism is "in order to receive" salvation but is still baptized is not saved. It is not my place to say that. What I am saying is that Scripture does not even hint at the condition of being saved and not being baptized. It NEVER even comes up in Scripture. There is never any time between a person hearing and accepting the Gospel and their baptism. All haste is made when a person hears the Gospel and accepts it to get them baptized as soon as possible. So if we are teaching as the Scripture demonstrates, there should never be a "baptism Sunday" once a month or quarter or whatever. If a person comes to believe on a Tuesday, they should be baptized IMMEDIATELY, right there on that Tuesday. Because if they die between when they come to believe and when they would have been baptized, Scripture says they are not saved, and will spend eternity in Hell because they did not obey God's command.

 

[dwight92070]

No, he did not. He said that there is no work you can do that will EARN salvation, not that there is no work necessary to RECEIVE salvation. If he did say that, then he would be creating a contradiction in Scripture (with Rom 10:9-10), and there are no contradictions in Scripture.

Correct, there is no work that can save you. But confession of Jesus as Lord does not save you, and neither does repentance, or baptism. Those are simply the conduits through which God pours His blessing onto us, and without which there is no conduit for His blessing to flow. Did the water of Jordan cleanse Naaman? No. But if he had not dipped as he was told he would not have been cleansed.

No, no contradiction.

As you, or someone, pointed out, the actions he mentions (feeding the hungry, clothing the cold, etc.) are not actions that Scripture says "lead to/result in" receiving salvation. Repentance (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and being baptized (Acts 2:38, Matt 28:19, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14) are actions that He says lead to/result in receiving salvation. So, while I do endorse the actions that James refers to, I do not reference them in terms of receiving salvation because they do not fit that application.

I have never said that at all. I am not God, and so I cannot say if a person who doesn't believe that baptism is "in order to receive" salvation but is still baptized is not saved. It is not my place to say that. What I am saying is that Scripture does not even hint at the condition of being saved and not being baptized. It NEVER even comes up in Scripture. There is never any time between a person hearing and accepting the Gospel and their baptism. All haste is made when a person hears the Gospel and accepts it to get them baptized as soon as possible. So if we are teaching as the Scripture demonstrates, there should never be a "baptism Sunday" once a month or quarter or whatever. If a person comes to believe on a Tuesday, they should be baptized IMMEDIATELY, right there on that Tuesday. Because if they die between when they come to believe and when they would have been baptized, Scripture says they are not saved, and will spend eternity in Hell because they did not obey God's command.

Spoken like a true cultist. I agree - you are not God, even though you pretend to know that if a person believes on Tuesday and dies on Wednesday, before they were baptized. they will spend eternity in Hell. Your God is a MONSTER, not the God of the Bible. If that were true, then the thief on the cross would also have gone to hell, because YOUR GOD CANNOT MAKE ANY EXCEPTIONS.

On the contrary, I remember that you pretty much told me that I am not saved and cannot go to heaven, because I don't believe what you do.