Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[dwight92070]

Doug - What work did Abraham perform in Genesis 15:1-6 to show that he had faith?
Paul refers to this verse in Romans 4:1-5.
So what work did Paul say that Abraham performed to show that he had faith?

Who was James writing his letter to? Christians or non-Christians?

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What has been taken down @dwight92070?

I'll gladly re-post it if it was from me.

J.

Okay, I found it in #801 and I copied it and will paste it below. Doug referenced it in #817 by saying: "As highlighted above ..." but I scrolled up and there was nothing there. This morning I noticed the arrow beside Doug's name in 817, clicked on it, and the comments or article appeared.
Here it is:
Comment: In this passage, James explains that not all believing will result in salvation. The believing he is describing in this passage is a mental or intellectual believing that is not associated in a change in one's heart and thus in one's behavior or actions. Belief in the New Testament sense that effects the new birth denotes more than a "demonic" like, intellectual assent to a set of facts or truths. The demons believe but they are clearly not saved. Genuine belief does involve an intellectual assent and consent of one's mind, but also includes an act of one's heart and will. Biblical saving faith is not passive assent but an active staking of one's life on the claims of God. The respected Greek lexicon author W E Vine defines belief as consisting of

What is the source of this comment or is this an article written somewhere? In the last sentence, which is incomplete, I see a reference to "Greek lexicon author W E Vine", but it doesn't give enough information to determine if the previous sentences were authored by him.

 

[Johann]

What is the source of this comment or is this an article written somewhere? In the last sentence, which is incomplete, I see a reference to "Greek lexicon author W E Vine", but it doesn't give enough information to determine if the previous sentences were authored by him.

πιστός
pistós; fem. pistḗ, neut. pistón, adj. from peíthō (G3982), to win over, persuade. Worthy of belief, trust, or confidence.
(I) Trustworthy (1Co_7:25; 1Ti_1:12; 2Ti_2:2; 1Pe_4:19; Rev_19:11; Sept.: 1Sa_3:20; Pro_20:6). True, sure, trustworthy, believable, worthy of credit (Rev_1:5; Rev_2:13; Rev_3:14; Sept.: Psa_89:38; Pro_14:5; Isa_8:2). Of things, true, sure, such as ho lógos (ho, def. art.; lógos [G3056], word), the word (1Ti_1:15; 1Ti_3:1; 1Ti_4:3; 2Ti_2:11; Tit_1:9; Tit_3:8; Rev_21:5; Rev_22:6). In Act_13:34, tá hósia Dabíd tá pistá (tá, neut. def. art.; hósia, neut. pl. of hósios [G3741], sacred; Dabíd [G1138], of David), the sure, inviolable, sacred things (promises, blessings) of David, the sure ones.

(II) Faithful in duty to oneself and to others, of true fidelity (Col_4:9; 1Pe_5:12, a faithful brother; Rev_2:10). Of God as faithful to His promises (1Co_1:9, "dependable the God" [a.t.]; 1Co_10:13; 1Th_5:24; 2Th_3:3; Heb_10:23; Heb_11:11; 1Jn_1:9; Sept.: Deu_32:4); of Christ (2Ti_2:13). As an attestation or oath, God is faithful (2Co_1:18). Especially of servants, ministers, who are faithful in the performance of duty (Mat_24:45; Mat_25:21, Mat_25:23; Luk_12:42; 1Co_4:2; Eph_6:21; Col_1:7, Col_1:9; Col_4:7; Heb_2:17). With epí (G1909), upon, with, followed by the dat. pl. of olígos (G3641), a little, ep’ olíga, with little things (Mat_25:21, Mat_25:23); with en (G1722), in, followed by the acc. (Luk_16:10-12; Luk_19:17; Eph_1:1; Col_1:2; 1Ti_3:11; Heb_3:5); by the dat. of person (Heb_3:2; Sept.: Num_12:7; 1Sa_22:14).
(III) With an act. sense, firmness in faith, confiding, trusting, believing, equivalent to ho pisteúōn, the pres. part. of pisteúō (G4100), to believe (Joh_20:27; Gal_3:9). Followed by the dat. (Act_16:15; 1Co_4:17). Used in an absolute sense (Act_10:45; Act_16:1; 2Co_6:15; 1Ti_4:3, 1Ti_4:10, 1Ti_4:12; 1Ti_5:16; 1Ti_6:2; Tit_1:6; Rev_17:14). Used in the acc. as an adv., pistón poiéō (poiéō [G4160], to do, perform), meaning to do faithfully, in a believing manner, as a Christian (3Jn_1:5; Sept.: Psa_101:6).

Deriv.: ápistos (G571), untrustworthy; pistóō (G4104), to confirm, establish.

Syn.: áxios (G514), worthy; bébaios (G949), steadfast, sure; alēthḗs (G227), true; alēthinós (G228), truthful; ámemptos (G273), blameless; anepílēptos (G423), irreproachable; eilikrinḗs (G1506), sincere; apseudḗs (G893), veracious; aklinḗs (G186), firm, without wavering; ametamélētos (G278), irrevocable; ametakínētos (G277), unmovable.

Ant.: ádēlos (G82), uncertain; astḗriktos (G793), unstable; ápistos (G571), unfaithful, untrustworthy; oligópistos (G3640), little faith; parabátēs (G3848), pseudḗs (G5571), false; dólios (G1386), deceitful; plános (G4108), seducing.
Word Study

A. Verbs.
1. pisteuo (G4100), "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see Joh_1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Act_5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers. See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.
2. peitho (G3982), "to persuade," in the middle and passive voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e.g., Luk_16:31; Heb_13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Act_17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Act_27:11, "gave (more) heed"; in Act_28:24, "believed. See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.
Note: For apisteo, the negative of No. 1, and apeitheo, the negative of No. 2, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.
B. Noun.
pistis (G4102), "faith," is translated "belief" in Rom_10:17; 2Th_2:13. Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him. See ASSURANCE, FAITH, FIDELITY.
Note: In 1Co_9:5 the word translated "believer" (RV), is adelphe, "a sister," so 1Co_7:15; Rom_16:1; Jas_2:15, used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.
C. Adjective.
pistos (G4103), (a) in the active sense means "believing, trusting"; (b) in the passive sense, "trusty, faithful, trustworthy." It is translated "believer" in 2Co_6:15; "them that believe" in 1Ti_4:12, RV (KJV, "believers "); in 1Ti_5:16, "if any woman that believeth," lit. "if any believing woman." So in 1Ti_6:2, "believing masters." In 1Pe_1:21 the RV, following the most authentic mss., gives the noun form, "are believers in God" (KJV, "do believe in God"). In Joh_20:27 it is translated "believing." It is best understood with significance (a), above, e.g., in Gal_3:9; Act_16:1; 2Co_6:15; Tit_1:6; it has significance (b), e.g., in 1Th_5:24; 2Th_3:3 (see Notes on Thessalonians p. 211, and Galatians p. 126, by Hogg and Vine). See FAITHFUL, SURE.
Notes: (1) The corresponding negative verb is apisteo, 2Ti_2:13, KJV, "believe not" RV, "are faithless," in contrast to the statement "He abideth faithful."
(2) The negative noun apistia, "unbelief," is used twice in Matthew (Mat_13:58); Mat_17:20), three times in Mark (Mar_6:6; Mar_9:24; Mar_16:14), four times in Romans (Rom_3:3; Rom_4:20; Rom_11:20, Rom_11:23); elsewhere in 1Ti_1:13 and Heb_3:12, Heb_3:19.
(3) The adjective apistos is translated "unbelievers" in 1Co_6:6, and 2Co_6:14; in 2Co_6:15, RV, "unbeliever" (KJV, "infidel"); so in 1Ti_5:8; "unbelieving" in 1Co_7:12-15; 1Co_14:22-24; 2Co_4:4; Tit_1:15; Rev_21:8; "that believe not" in 1Co_10:27. In the Gospels it is translated "faithless" in Mat_17:17; Mar_9:19; Luk_9:41; Joh_20:27, but in Luk_12:46, RV, "unfaithful," KJV, "unbelievers." Once it is translated "incredible," Act_26:8. See FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE, UNBELIEVER.
(4) Plerophoreo, in Luk_1:1 (KJV, "are most surely believed," lit., "have had full course"), the RV renders "have been fulfilled." see FULFILL, KNOW, PERSUADE, PROOF.
Vine NT.

Hope this is helpful brother.

J.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug - What work did Abraham perform in Genesis 15:1-6 to show that he had faith?
Paul refers to this verse in Romans 4:1-5.
So what work did Paul say that Abraham performed to show that he had faith?

We are not told what action Abraham took that was associated with his belief. We are simply told that Abraham believed/trusted/had faith in the promise of God. We are not told if his faith was demonstrated at that instant, or if it was demonstrated in years to come, but his faith was credited as righteousness.

Who was James writing his letter to? Christians or non-Christians?

Both. He was writing to the "twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad". That could encompass both the saved of the twelve tribes, and the lost of the twelve tribes.

Okay, I found it in #801 and I copied it and will paste it below. Doug referenced it in #817 by saying: "As highlighted above ..." but I scrolled up and there was nothing there. This morning I noticed the arrow beside Doug's name in 817, clicked on it, and the comments or article appeared.
Here it is:
Comment: In this passage, James explains that not all believing will result in salvation. The believing he is describing in this passage is a mental or intellectual believing that is not associated in a change in one's heart and thus in one's behavior or actions. Belief in the New Testament sense that effects the new birth denotes more than a "demonic" like, intellectual assent to a set of facts or truths. The demons believe but they are clearly not saved. Genuine belief does involve an intellectual assent and consent of one's mind, but also includes an act of one's heart and will. Biblical saving faith is not passive assent but an active staking of one's life on the claims of God. The respected Greek lexicon author W E Vine defines belief as consisting of

What is the source of this comment or is this an article written somewhere? In the last sentence, which is incomplete, I see a reference to "Greek lexicon author W E Vine", but it doesn't give enough information to determine if the previous sentences were authored by him.

The full comment of Johann's was in post #800. I was only commenting on the one part of it, so I cut out the rest. Please forgive me. I did not intend to cause confusion by editing his comment.

 

[Johann]

Doug - What work did Abraham perform in Genesis 15:1-6 to show that he had faith?
Paul refers to this verse in Romans 4:1-5.
So what work did Paul say that Abraham performed to show that he had faith?

Who was James writing his letter to? Christians or non-Christians?

Quote Reply
Report

Okay, I found it in #801 and I copied it and will paste it below. Doug referenced it in #817 by saying: "As highlighted above ..." but I scrolled up and there was nothing there. This morning I noticed the arrow beside Doug's name in 817, clicked on it, and the comments or article appeared.
Here it is:
Comment: In this passage, James explains that not all believing will result in salvation. The believing he is describing in this passage is a mental or intellectual believing that is not associated in a change in one's heart and thus in one's behavior or actions. Belief in the New Testament sense that effects the new birth denotes more than a "demonic" like, intellectual assent to a set of facts or truths. The demons believe but they are clearly not saved. Genuine belief does involve an intellectual assent and consent of one's mind, but also includes an act of one's heart and will. Biblical saving faith is not passive assent but an active staking of one's life on the claims of God. The respected Greek lexicon author W E Vine defines belief as consisting of

What is the source of this comment or is this an article written somewhere? In the last sentence, which is incomplete, I see a reference to "Greek lexicon author W E Vine", but it doesn't give enough information to determine if the previous sentences were authored by him.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

Here's the post @dwight92070.

God bless.

J.

 

[dwight92070]

I am not "afraid" of Acts 26. What I am trying to get you to see is that it does not say what you think it says. The story of Paul's conversion is told three times, and in two of them the timeline is laid out very clearly. In the third, the timeline is condensed, leaving out details that are unnecessary for the listener to know at that point. We cannot rewrite the timeline of the first two just because the third doesn't give details. All Scripture must agree, so if you take your timeline, then the first two become false. That cannot be true.

[Dwight} Correct, his story is told three times and for some reason, you seem to ignore or place little value on the third story in Acts 26. Yet that third story has valuable information, not found in the first two, that you also seem to ignore. That information is found in verses 15-18 - specifically 16,17, and 18. Paul says here that Jesus Himself spoke to him, NOT Ananias speaking on behalf of the Lord - and that means that he was still on the road to Damascus. Jesus is speaking in the first person in all these verses - "for this purpose I HAVE APPEARED TO YOU ... BUT ALSO TO THE THINGS IN WHICH I WILL APPEAR TO YOU ... THE GENTILES TO WHOM I AM SENDING YOU ... AMONG THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SANCTIFIED BY ME.

[Dwight] By contrast, when Ananias comes to Paul in Acts 9:17 and in Acts 22:12-16, Jesus is not speaking directly to either of them. Instead, in these first two stories, Ananias is speaking on behalf of the Lord. Contrary to what you are saying, the third story is not condensed - just the opposite - it actually gives MORE information not found in the first two.

[Dwight] Therefore the timeline seems to be as follows: 1. Jesus Himself appears to Saul on the road to Damascus 2. Jesus Himself commissions Saul while still on the road Acts 26:16-18 Ananias is not present for this commissioning. 3. Saul is told to go into the city "and it will be told you what you must do" Acts 9:6. In Acts 22:10, a little more information is given: " ... Get up and go into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do" (apparently by Ananias) The additional information that Ananias gives Saul, after laying his hands on him, which restores his sight, is "Brother Saul ... The God of our fathers HAS APPOINTED YOU TO KNOW HIS WILL AND TO SEE THE RIGHTEOUS ONE AND TO HEAR AN UTTERANCE FROM HIS MOUTH. (Ananias' words here are past tense, making it clear that Saul saw and heard Jesus before Ananias came to him) For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard." Then he baptized Saul. (we have discussed the details of that ad infinitum, so I won't go into that now.)

[Dwight] So, yes, Ananias' visit obviously was essential and he DID add important information about what Saul was appointed to do, but it was SECOND HAND INFORMATION. Jesus told Ananias, then Ananias told Saul. In Acts 26, Saul got information from Jesus FIRSTHAND, DIRECTLY FROM HIM. JESUS COMMISSIONED SAUL DIRECTLY ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS - ANANIAS WAS NOT THERE.
[Dwight] There is no indication that Jesus spoke directly to Saul, while Ananias was standing right there. If Ananias had been there, he too would have seen the light, heard Jesus' voice, and fallen to the ground, which is exactly what happened to the men with Saul. See Acts 9:7 they "heard the voice but saw no one"; Acts 22:9 they "saw the light ... but did not understand the voice"; and Acts 26:13-14 the light was "shining all around" Saul and his companions ... and when we had ALL FALLEN TO THE GROUND, I heard a voice ..."
[Dwight] When the Lord spoke to Ananias, it was in a vision, there was no blinding light, no mention of him falling to the ground - all of which implies that this was VERY MUCH DIFFERENT from what Saul experienced. In fact, Ananias himself pointed that out: He said "the God of our fathers has appointed you TO KNOW HIS WILL AND TO SEE THE RIGHTEOUS ONE AND TO HEAR AN UTTERANCE FROM HIS MOUTH." This was a rare privilege that Ananias DID NOT EXPERIENCE. Paul knew the will of God like very few have known it. He was privileged to see and hear the glorified Jesus, like few have.


Again, those verses do not "scare" me, because they do not change anything found in the first two tellings of the event. Saul was still in sin three days after his experience on the Road, and so he was not saved on the Road. He was saved when he was baptized three days after the Road.

[Dwight] Wrong, Saul, having seen Jesus, must have been shaken to the core. He knew immediately, when Jesus spoke to him, that he had been gravely wrong and extremely violent and sinful. To even suggest that Saul did not repent on the spot in deep and broken humility is to totally miss what happened that day. If that happened to you or me, that's what we would do. Not only that, but to suggest that Jesus did not forgive him on the spot is to dishonor Jesus Himself. When Zacchaeus saw Jesus, he was converted on the spot - and he did not even see the GLORIFIED JESUS, as Saul did. When the man in the tombs was delivered by Jesus, he was converted on the spot - and he too did not see the GLORIFIED JESUS. When Jesus healed Bartimaeus' blind eyes, he was converted on the spot - and he did not see the GLORIFIED JESUS. Instantly, their faith saved them and their sins were forgiven. Saul was instantly and powerfully saved on the road - having aligned his faith with Jesus, and having all his sins forgiven.

It is irrelevant that Saul saw Jesus' glory and Ananias did not. Seeing His glory does not make His words any more true, valid, powerful, or potent. Jesus came to speak directly to Ananias, just as He spoke directly to Saul. Same Jesus, same power, same glory. Just because one was blinded and the other was not does not make the one blinded more holy or righteous.

[Dwight] Irrelevant? What part of God's word is irrelevant to you?? Saul, privileged to see the glory of the Righteous One, whereas Ananias DID NOT - makes no difference to you?? If that's how little value you place on the PERSON OF THE GLORIFIED JESUS, I am at a loss for words.
You equate the vision of Jesus speaking with Ananias with the blinding light of His glory and majesty, when He HIMSELF spoke directly to Saul?? No one is suggesting that Saul was more holy than Ananias. But there is a message there that I believe the Holy Spirit is conveying to us. At the very least Saul was more privileged than Ananias, or the rest of US for that matter. I think too that the Holy Spirit is showing us how authoritative the words of Paul are in the scripture. I do not worship him, but I do hold all authors of scripture in high esteem. Paul wrote about half of all the books in the New Testament - 13 out of 27

 

[Doug Brents]

[Dwight} Correct, his story is told three times and for some reason, you seem to ignore or place little value on the third story in Acts 26. Yet that third story has valuable information, not found in the first two, that you also seem to ignore. That information is found in verses 15-18 - specifically 16,17, and 18. Paul says here that Jesus Himself spoke to him, NOT Ananias speaking on behalf of the Lord - and that means that he was still on the road to Damascus.

No, it does not mean that he was still on the Road. If a servant brings a message from their Lord, the message doesn't come from the servant. It is the Lord who is speaking. Ananias didn't speak with his own voice. He spoke with Jesus' voice (figuratively). So if Paul says that Jesus told him, it means that Jesus told him through Ananias.

Jesus is speaking in the first person in all these verses - "for this purpose I HAVE APPEARED TO YOU ... BUT ALSO TO THE THINGS IN WHICH I WILL APPEAR TO YOU ... THE GENTILES TO WHOM I AM SENDING YOU ... AMONG THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SANCTIFIED BY ME.

And in the Old Testament, frequently the messenger will speak as if they were God speaking to the audience (speaking in the first person, Exo 20:22 is just one example). Just because Paul depicts Jesus speaking in the first person here, doesn't mean that Jesus was the actual speaker.

By contrast, when Ananias comes to Paul in Acts 9:17 and in Acts 22:12-16, Jesus is not speaking directly to either of them. Instead, in these first two stories, Ananias is speaking on behalf of the Lord. Contrary to what you are saying, the third story is not condensed - just the opposite - it actually gives MORE information not found in the first two.

Jesus spoke directly to Ananias (in a vision) telling him where to go, who to speak with, and what to say. And Jesus speaks directly to Saul telling him to go into the city where he would be told what else he must do. You are putting too much emphasis on the version in Acts 26, and not letting the first two set the timeline.

Therefore the timeline seems to be as follows: 1. Jesus Himself appears to Saul on the road to Damascus

true

2. Jesus Himself commissions Saul while still on the road Acts 26:16-18 Ananias is not present for this commissioning.

This is part of step 3. Jesus commissions Saul three days after his experience on the Road through Ananias. Just because Ananias is not mentioned in Acts 26 does not mean anything other than that Paul did not mention him in this telling of the story to King Agrippa.

3. Saul is told to go into the city "and it will be told you what you must do" Acts 9:6. In Acts 22:10, a little more information is given: " ... Get up and go into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do" (apparently by Ananias) The additional information that Ananias gives Saul, after laying his hands on him, which restores his sight, is "Brother Saul ... The God of our fathers HAS APPOINTED YOU TO KNOW HIS WILL AND TO SEE THE RIGHTEOUS ONE AND TO HEAR AN UTTERANCE FROM HIS MOUTH. (Ananias' words here are past tense, making it clear that Saul saw and heard Jesus before Ananias came to him)

No, Ananias' words are not past tense here. He is foretelling that Saul would spend the next three years in Arabia and in Damascus leaning the Gospel directly from Jesus (Gal 1:11-12, 17-18).

So, yes, Ananias' visit obviously was essential and he DID add important information about what Saul was appointed to do, but it was SECOND HAND INFORMATION. Jesus told Ananias, then Ananias told Saul. In Acts 26, Saul got information from Jesus FIRSTHAND, DIRECTLY FROM HIM. JESUS COMMISSIONED SAUL DIRECTLY ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS - ANANIAS WAS NOT THERE.

Saul did not get the information first hand at all. Jesus told him who He was, and then sent him into the city to await further instruction. There was no commissioning on the Road, nor did Jesus have a long drawn out conversation with Saul on the Road. Saul received all of the commissioning instruction from Jesus through Ananias three days later.

There is no indication that Jesus spoke directly to Saul, while Ananias was standing right there. If Ananias had been there, he too would have seen the light, heard Jesus' voice, and fallen to the ground, which is exactly what happened to the men with Saul. See Acts 9:7 they "heard the voice but saw no one"; Acts 22:9 they "saw the light ... but did not understand the voice"; and Acts 26:13-14 the light was "shining all around" Saul and his companions ... and when we had ALL FALLEN TO THE GROUND, I heard a voice ..."

Ananias was not with Saul on the Road at all (he didn't appear until three days later). And yes, he would have probably reacted the same as the other men with Saul did. But we will never know the "If..."s, or the, "Maybe..."s. What we know is that Jesus met Saul on the Road, blinded him, and sent him into town to await further instructions. Then Ananias came to deliver Jesus' message to Saul.

When the Lord spoke to Ananias, it was in a vision, there was no blinding light, no mention of him falling to the ground - all of which implies that this was VERY MUCH DIFFERENT from what Saul experienced. In fact, Ananias himself pointed that out: He said "the God of our fathers has appointed you TO KNOW HIS WILL AND TO SEE THE RIGHTEOUS ONE AND TO HEAR AN UTTERANCE FROM HIS MOUTH." This was a rare privilege that Ananias DID NOT EXPERIENCE. Paul knew the will of God like very few have known it. He was privileged to see and hear the glorified Jesus, like few have.

Indeed, he spent the next three years learning from Jesus directly (possibly reliving the life of Jesus as if he had been there with him every day, but that is just my supposition since Jesus' ministry was three years and Saul spent three years learning from Jesus).

Wrong, Saul, having seen Jesus, must have been shaken to the core. He knew immediately, when Jesus spoke to him, that he had been gravely wrong and extremely violent and sinful. To even suggest that Saul did not repent on the spot in deep and broken humility is to totally miss what happened that day.

Repentance does not absolve sin. You walk into mud and then turn around. Turning around does not remove the mud from your shoes. Just repenting does not forgive sin, but it is certainly a necessary step in receiving forgiveness. Did Saul repent that instant or did he not repent until Ananias showed up? Doesn't matter. We know he repented at some point in that time, but it doesn't matter when in that period he repented. It doesn't change anything.

If that happened to you or me, that's what we would do. Not only that, but to suggest that Jesus did not forgive him on the spot is to dishonor Jesus Himself.

That does not dishonor Jesus at all. It honors Him as one who keeps His Word. If Saul had been forgiven on the Road, then Jesus lied when He said that we cannot be born again without water and the Spirit. Saul could have experienced the Spirit (he certainly experienced Jesus) on the Road, but he did not experience water on the Road, and so could not have been born again.

And to suggest that he was saved while he was still in sin is to completely disregard all of what Scripture says about sin.

Irrelevant? What part of God's word is irrelevant to you??

None of Scripture is irrelevant. But you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The fact that Saul saw the glory of Jesus and was blinded while Ananias, or Peter, or any of the other people who had visions of Jesus, were not does not make any difference.

Saul, privileged to see the glory of the Righteous One, whereas Ananias DID NOT - makes no difference to you?? If that's how little value you place on the PERSON OF THE GLORIFIED JESUS, I am at a loss for words.

No, it does not lessen the value of Jesus. Ananias did see Jesus, and hear His voice, as did Peter, and John, and many others. John even went to Heaven with Jesus (Revelation), as did Paul at one point (2 Cor 12:2). You want to make something more of it than there is because Saul was blinded. But that is not the point. Ananias was a messenger of God just as surely as Saul was (he was not an Apostle as Saul became, but he was still a messenger speaking the very words of Jesus).

You equate the vision of Jesus speaking with Ananias with the blinding light of His glory and majesty, when He HIMSELF spoke directly to Saul?? No one is suggesting that Saul was more holy than Ananias. But there is a message there that I believe the Holy Spirit is conveying to us. At the very least Saul was more privileged than Ananias, or the rest of US for that matter. I think too that the Holy Spirit is showing us how authoritative the words of Paul are in the scripture. I do not worship him, but I do hold all authors of scripture in high esteem. Paul wrote about half of all the books in the New Testament - 13 out of 27

Just because Ananias did not write any Scripture does not mean that he words he spoke to Saul were any less inspired by Jesus Himself. Jesus spoke directly to Ananias, just as much as He did to Saul on the Road, just as much as He spoke directly to Peter before the messenger from Cornelius came to him. Yes, I equate the vision of Jesus speaking to Ananias with the light Saul saw on the Road, and with the burning bush that Moses saw, and the vision that Peter saw, and the vision that John saw, and the vision that Daniel saw. They were all visions of God's glory. Each had a different purpose, and each had a different result, but each and every one of them was a demonstration of the Glory of God.

 

[dwight92070]

We are not told what action Abraham took that was associated with his belief. We are simply told that Abraham believed/trusted/had faith in the promise of God. We are not told if his faith was demonstrated at that instant, or if it was demonstrated in years to come, but his faith was credited as righteousness.

Both. He was writing to the "twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad". That could encompass both the saved of the twelve tribes, and the lost of the twelve tribes.

The full comment of Johann's was in post #800. I was only commenting on the one part of it, so I cut out the rest. Please forgive me. I did not intend to cause confusion by editing his comment.

Bingo! There was no action taken - he simply believed. How do we know he believed? We don't have to know. God knew because He knew his heart and He knew that Abraham believed Him.
What action did Paul say Abraham took to show he had faith in Gen 15:1-6?
The same. Paul said (in Rom. 4:1-5) that "he who does NOT work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

So what does James mean by James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?"

He simply means that his actions show that he truly had faith in God. Remember, at the time he offered up Isaac, Abraham had walked with God for about 50 years. An educated guess is that Abraham was about 125 years old, with Isaac being about 25, when Abraham offered him up. Abraham was first called by God when he was 75 years old, so he had walked with God close to 50 years when he offered up Isaac.

This tells us that James is NOT speaking of one's initial faith (for salvation) in James two, but he is speaking of the faith that a Christian has AFTER he has been saved -Just as Abraham demonstrated the faith that he still had some 50 years AFTER God first called him, by offering up Isaac.

However, let's assume that the baptismal regeneration people (BRP) are correct and that James, although he may be referring to the faith that persons who have already been saved have, he is also referring to the faith of persons who are just now getting saved.

So the BRP say that this person must show that he has genuine faith by his works, to display that he is really saved. So what works does James recommend? Well, in James 2:15, he recommends clothing and feeding the poor. Okay, so if a new believer clothes and feeds the poor, doesn't that prove that he is really saved? According to James, yes, it does.

James also refers to Rahab, who protected the spies, so that they wouldn't be killed. So if a new believer protected an innocent, wanted person or persons, so that they would not be killed, wouldn't that prove that they had genuine faith and were saved? According to James, yes, it would.

So does this satisfy the requirements of the BRP? You and I both know that it does NOT. This shows that they really aren't being honest when they quote "faith without works is dead". The truth is that they are really saying: "Faith without baptism is dead."

And James 2 doesn't say that. It says, that faith without ANY works is dead. So really, ANY GOOD WORK should satisfy Jame's requirement, NOT specifically baptism. So when the BRP quote James 2, as they endlessly do, then we know that it's simply a pitch for "No salvation without baptism", and that they are not really giving us a true interpretation of James 2.

So, James 2 is not now, nor has it ever been, about initial faith of a new believer to get saved.
But James 2 is now, and always has been about the faith that believers have AFTER they get saved.

 

[dwight92070]

James is written predominantly to Jewish believers, not unbelievers. In fact, what Bible book is not written to believers or we could say, the remnant of Israel, i.e. true lovers of God, both Jew and Gentile?

"In the exercise of His will He brought us forth in by the word of truth ..." James 1:18 James is speaking to born again disciples of Jesus. Notice there's no mention of being saved by being baptized. Rather they were born again by their faith in the word of truth.
"My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude ..." James 2:1
Once again, James is speaking to Christians, not unbelievers here in chapter 2.
So in James 2:14-26, James is again speaking to Christians, not unbelievers. When he speaks of their faith, he's addressing people who are already born again. So they don't need to know how to get saved - they already are saved through faith in the word of the gospel.

 

[Doug Brents]

Bingo! There was no action taken - he simply believed.

Just because we are not told what actions he took, or when he took them doesn't mean there were no actions taken. The fact that he had faith tells us that there were actions taken.

How do we know he believed? We don't have to know. God knew because He knew his heart and He knew that Abraham believed Him.

Abraham had already demonstrated his faith by leaving Ur, leaving his clan, going to a strange land, etc. at God's command. He had shown his faith through his actions, so he continued to have faith in God's additional promise even though he did not see how he could become a father in his old age.

What action did Paul say Abraham took to show he had faith in Gen 15:1-6?
The same. Paul said (in Rom. 4:1-5) that "he who does NOT work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Work implies earning what is received. We do not work to receive God's blessing; we can never earn His gifts. But that does not mean that we don't have to do ANYTHING whatsoever to receive them. That is the point of so many stories we see in the OT. God blesses those who obey Him. Someone wants something, and He gives them some pittance of an action (give me your last piece of bread), and then He offers a much greater gift (and I will give you enough bread to last through the rest of the famine). For us, He says to repent, confess Him as our Lord, and be baptized in water and He will give us complete forgiveness from sin and adopt us as His children.

So what does James mean by James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?"

He simply means that his actions show that he truly had faith in God. Remember, at the time he offered up Isaac, Abraham had walked with God for about 50 years. An educated guess is that Abraham was about 125 years old, with Isaac being about 25, when Abraham offered him up. Abraham was first called by God when he was 75 years old, so he had walked with God close to 50 years when he offered up Isaac.

This tells us that James is NOT speaking of one's initial faith (for salvation) in James two, but he is speaking of the faith that a Christian has AFTER he has been saved -Just as Abraham demonstrated the faith that he still had some 50 years AFTER God first called him, by offering up Isaac.

There is no difference between "saving" faith and faith after one has been saved. They are the same thing. Faith requires action regardless of if it is after salvation or before salvation is received. Yes, the example given about Abraham is many years after he received salvation from the Lord, and he was still exhibiting his faith through obedience. But Rahab was not saved yet when she hid the spies. Yet she also is praised for her faith which she showed in hiding the spies.

However, let's assume that the baptismal regeneration people (BRP) are correct and that James, although he may be referring to the faith that persons who have already been saved have, he is also referring to the faith of persons who are just now getting saved.

So the BRP say that this person must show that he has genuine faith by his works, to display that he is really saved. So what works does James recommend? Well, in James 2:15, he recommends clothing and feeding the poor. Okay, so if a new believer clothes and feeds the poor, doesn't that prove that he is really saved? According to James, yes, it does.

No. There is nothing there that says, "Feed and clothe the poor in order to receive salvation/forgiveness of sin." But we do see that if/then relationship between repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism.

James also refers to Rahab, who protected the spies, so that they wouldn't be killed. So if a new believer protected an innocent, wanted person or persons, so that they would not be killed, wouldn't that prove that they had genuine faith and were saved? According to James, yes, it would.

The spies were not innocent. They really were spies and were guilty of preparing to invade the land and take it by military (and divine) force. But she was saved because she demonstrated her belief that God would hand the city into the hands of the invaders and trusted that He would preserve her and her family.

So does this satisfy the requirements of the BRP? You and I both know that it does NOT. This shows that they really aren't being honest when they quote "faith without works is dead". The truth is that they are really saying: "Faith without baptism is dead."

Faith without the actions that God says lead to/result in receiving salvation does not lead to salvation. Once a person is saved, faith continues to be demonstrated in love, helping the poor and weak, serving God in all manner of ways, teaching the Gospel, etc. But the faith that brings initial salvation requires three actions of faith, repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism.

James is written predominantly to Jewish believers, not unbelievers.

It does not say that. It says that it was written to the twelve scattered tribes of Israel. Nothing is said whatsoever about them being believers or not.

In fact, what Bible book is not written to believers or we could say, the remnant of Israel, i.e. true lovers of God, both Jew and Gentile?

John was written primarily to non-believers, because it was written so that they might come to believe.

"In the exercise of His will He brought us forth in by the word of truth ..." James 1:18 James is speaking to born again disciples of Jesus. Notice there's no mention of being saved by being baptized. Rather they were born again by their faith in the word of truth.
"My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude ..." James 2:1
Once again, James is speaking to Christians, not unbelievers here in chapter 2.
So in James 2:14-26, James is again speaking to Christians, not unbelievers. When he speaks of their faith, he's addressing people who are already born again. So they don't need to know how to get saved - they already are saved through faith in the word of the gospel.

The fact that you misunderstand (willfully it appears, but either way) what faith really is and requires does not change the fact that faith must have action to be effective. And that active, effective faith must be present before salvation is received (Eph 2:8-9). If there is no action then there is no salvation.

 

[dwight92070]

Just because we are not told what actions he took, or when he took them doesn't mean there were no actions taken. The fact that he had faith tells us that there were actions taken.

[Dwight] Paul's commentary on these verses tells us that regarding this particular promise, Abraham took NO (zero) actions - He simply believed.
"But to the one who does NOT WORK, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Abraham had already demonstrated his faith by leaving Ur, leaving his clan, going to a strange land, etc. at God's command. He had shown his faith through his actions, so he continued to have faith in God's additional promise even though he did not see how he could become a father in his old age.

[Dwight] Now you're getting it! Abraham already had a relationship with God, (close to 50 years) which is why James in chapter 2 uses him as an example of Christians who had already walked with God over a period of time, so they should have good works to display the genuineness of their faith. If they didn't have works, it was NOT because they only had MENTAL ASSENT, it was because they had NO FAITH to begin with. They were pretenders, like the Scribes and Pharisees. There is NO PLACE in scripture where true faith is contrasted with MENTAL ASSENT. You either have faith in God or you don't. MENTAL ASSENT IS INDEED A STRAW MAN AND A SMOKE SCREEN TO CONFUSE CHRISTIANS. A person either knows the Lord Jesus or he doesn't.

Work implies earning what is received. We do not work to receive God's blessing; we can never earn His gifts. But that does not mean that we don't have to do ANYTHING whatsoever to receive them. That is the point of so many stories we see in the OT. God blesses those who obey Him. Someone wants something, and He gives them some pittance of an action (give me your last piece of bread), and then He offers a much greater gift (and I will give you enough bread to last through the rest of the famine). For us, He says to repent, confess Him as our Lord, and be baptized in water and He will give us complete forgiveness from sin and adopt us as His children.

[Dwight] Or, according to James 2, which you love to quote, we could clothe and feed the poor to demonstrate our faith. You see, James 2 doesn't support your message at all. James 2 says "Faith without works (ANY GOOD WORKS) is dead." Your message is "Faith without BAPTISM is dead."
Look at this - HERE WE SEE ANOTHER STRAW MAN TO CONFUSE BELIEVERS. You folks wanted us to believe that James 2 supported your false doctrine, BUT IT DOESN'T. I guess you'll have to check James 2 off your list of proofs that baptism is necessary for salvation. It never was.

There is no difference between "saving" faith and faith after one has been saved. They are the same thing. Faith requires action regardless of if it is after salvation or before salvation is received. Yes, the example given about Abraham is many years after he received salvation from the Lord, and he was still exhibiting his faith through obedience. But Rahab was not saved yet when she hid the spies. Yet she also is praised for her faith which she showed in hiding the spies.

[Dwight] ANOTHER STRAWMAN. Rahab tells us plainly WHY SHE HID THE SPIES - BECAUSE OF HER FAITH THAT " the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath." Joshua 2:11 She tells us that the people of Jericho had heard how the Lord had dried up the water of the Red Sea and how Israel, with God's power, defeated the two kings of the Amorites. She said, "Our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you (Israel)". She WAS SAVED through her faith. Hebrews 11:31 tells us that she hid the spies because of her faith and God saved her on the spot.

[Dwight] Even you baptismal regeneration people (BRP) believe that saving faith is NOT the same as the faith you have after you're saved. For you BRP, there is no saving faith without the specific works of confession and baptism. Then after that your faith produces OTHER good works. For those of us who are NOT BRP, we believe we are saved by faith plus nothing. Then after that, our faith produces good works, the first of which should be confession and baptism. So we BOTH acknowledge that initial salvation is different from our later walk with the Lord. However as believers we do NOT rely on our good works to KEEP us saved, just as we did NOT rely on ANY good works to GET saved (unlike BRP). Rather, as believers we are encouraged, even commanded to engage in good deeds, and to continue to live by faith.


No. There is nothing there that says, "Feed and clothe the poor in order to receive salvation/forgiveness of sin." But we do see that if/then relationship between repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism.

[Dwight] On the contrary, James just comes right out and says that if you feed and clothe the poor, you are demonstrating your faith. But he NEVER says that if you confess Jesus as Lord and get baptized in water, you will be saved. James is saying ANY GOOD WORK will demonstrate your faith. BRP are saying "Only confession and baptism will show you have faith."

The spies were not innocent. They really were spies and were guilty of preparing to invade the land and take it by military (and divine) force. But she was saved because she demonstrated her belief that God would hand the city into the hands of the invaders and trusted that He would preserve her and her family.

[Dwight] Of course the spies were innocent! They were commanded by Joshua, who was commanded by God to conquer Jericho.

Faith without the actions that God says lead to/result in receiving salvation does not lead to salvation. Once a person is saved, faith continues to be demonstrated in love, helping the poor and weak, serving God in all manner of ways, teaching the Gospel, etc. But the faith that brings initial salvation requires three actions of faith, repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism.

[Dwight] So EVEN YOU admit there is a difference in the "faith that brings initial salvation" and the faith "once a person is saved, faith continues to be demonstrated in love" which contradicts your statement above:
You said:"There is no difference between "saving" faith and faith after one has been saved."

It does not say that. It says that it was written to the twelve scattered tribes of Israel. Nothing is said whatsoever about them being believers or not.

[Dwight] Obviously, there were non-believers in the scattered tribes, and they were certainly welcome to read his letter. But his letter was not specifically written to them. It was written specifically to the believing Jews - and of course Gentiles, whether they believed or not, could read it.
But many verses indicate he is writing to Christians: James 1:18 says they were born again; James 2:1 says they had faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; James 2:5 calls them "beloved brethren", not a term used for non-believers; James 3: 1 says "Let not many of you become teachers" Obviously, in the body of Christ, NO non-believer should be teaching us; James 5:7 says "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord." non-believers are NOT waiting for the coming of the Lord; James 5:20 "let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul" non-believers are not concerned about turning a sinner from his sins.

John was written primarily to non-believers, because it was written so that they might come to believe.

The fact that you misunderstand (willfully it appears, but either way) what faith really is and requires does not change the fact that faith must have action to be effective. And that active, effective faith must be present before salvation is received (Eph 2:8-9). If there is no action then there is no salvation.

 

[dwight92070]

Why don't you come right out and say what you mean, instead of cloaking it with religious words? What you're really saying is that confession and baptism must be present before one can be saved - and if there is no confession and baptism, then there is no salvation.
By the way, could you quote the Bible verse that talks about an "active, effective faith? I will be surprised if you find one. Either a person has faith, as defined by Hebrews 11:1, or he does not. This smokescreen called "mental assent" is not mentioned in the Bible.
Faith is not confession and baptism.
You chose the wrong verses to prove your point.
Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith - not by confession and baptism - and faith is defined in Heb.11:1, which is not the definition that Doug and the BRP would have us believe.
Salvation is a gift of God, not as a result of works, like confession and baptism; so that no one may boast.

I think you're misinterpreting John 20:30-31:
Therefore many other signs (attesting miracles) Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these (signs) have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

John recorded ONLY 7 miracles, but he is saying that Jesus did many more in the presence of His disciples. He wanted His disciples to believe in Him and who He was. But John chose just 7 miracles out of the many, to build up their faith - and OUR faith, those of us who have never seen Jesus.
Jesus was always encouraging FAITH AMONG HIS DISCIPLES and He is doing that for us too.

So, once again, John was written primarily to believers, so that whatever faith they had, would be strengthened.

 

[Doug Brents]

Paul's commentary on these verses tells us that regarding this particular promise, Abraham took NO (zero) actions - He simply believed.
"But to the one who does NOT WORK, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Paul does not say that Abraham took "NO (zero) actions)". He says that he did not "work". Work deserves a wage (Rom 4:4). But a faithful servant, even though he takes actions, does not even deserve a "thank you" much less a wage (Luke 17:7-10).

Now you're getting it! Abraham already had a relationship with God, (close to 50 years) which is why James in chapter 2 uses him as an example of Christians who had already walked with God over a period of time, so they should have good works to display the genuineness of their faith. If they didn't have works, it was NOT because they only had MENTAL ASSENT, it was because they had NO FAITH to begin with. They were pretenders, like the Scribes and Pharisees. There is NO PLACE in scripture where true faith is contrasted with MENTAL ASSENT. You either have faith in God or you don't. MENTAL ASSENT IS INDEED A STRAW MAN AND A SMOKE SCREEN TO CONFUSE CHRISTIANS. A person either knows the Lord Jesus or he doesn't.

Eph 2:8-9 says that faith must be present (alive and active) before salvation is received. Yes, faith must continue to be alive and active for the rest of a person's life, but it must exist (and it requires action for it to exist) before salvation is granted by God.

Or, according to James 2, which you love to quote, we could clothe and feed the poor to demonstrate our faith. You see, James 2 doesn't support your message at all. James 2 says "Faith without works (ANY GOOD WORKS) is dead." Your message is "Faith without BAPTISM is dead."

No. That is not my message. Faith without any work whatsoever is dead. It does not require "good works" because that is one of the fruits that a Spirit filled life will produce. Faith before salvation, before the Spirit indwells us and brings about good works, must produce the actions that God says lead to/result in salvation being received.

Look at this - HERE WE SEE ANOTHER STRAW MAN TO CONFUSE BELIEVERS. You folks wanted us to believe that James 2 supported your false doctrine, BUT IT DOESN'T. I guess you'll have to check James 2 off your list of proofs that baptism is necessary for salvation. It never was.

I never said that James 2 says anything about baptism. It does not prove baptism is necessary for salvation. James 2 proves that action is necessary for faith to be real. If there is not faith (real, alive, and active) then salvation cannot be received (Eph 2:8-9).

ANOTHER STRAWMAN. Rahab tells us plainly WHY SHE HID THE SPIES - BECAUSE OF HER FAITH THAT " the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath." Joshua 2:11 She tells us that the people of Jericho had heard how the Lord had dried up the water of the Red Sea and how Israel, with God's power, defeated the two kings of the Amorites. She said, "Our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you (Israel)". She WAS SAVED through her faith. Hebrews 11:31 tells us that she hid the spies because of her faith and God saved her on the spot.

She believed what God had done to the kings around her city, and to the Red Sea. And because she believed, she saved the spies: that was faith (belief in action), and it was her faith that saved her.

Even you baptismal regeneration people (BRP) believe that saving faith is NOT the same as the faith you have after you're saved. For you BRP, there is no saving faith without the specific works of confession and baptism. Then after that your faith produces OTHER good works. For those of us who are NOT BRP, we believe we are saved by faith plus nothing.

I also believe that we are saved by "faith plus nothing", because faith includes action. If there is no action then there is no faith. And faith is not different before salvation or after salvation. It still requires action. In order to receive salvation there are some specific actions that are required. After salvation there are some specific actions that will be produced. Just as corn seeds always grow corn fruit (they never grow okra) so too, faith in God always produces God's fruit.

Then after that, our faith produces good works, the first of which should be confession and baptism. So we BOTH acknowledge that initial salvation is different from our later walk with the Lord. However as believers we do NOT rely on our good works to KEEP us saved, just as we did NOT rely on ANY good works to GET saved (unlike BRP). Rather, as believers we are encouraged, even commanded to engage in good deeds, and to continue to live by faith.

Jesus told the Apostles that even they would not be remain forgiven if they failed to forgive. If they failed to forgive, their past guilt would be put back on them, and they would be condemned, just as the man in the parable of the unforgiving servant (Matt 18:21-35). So yes, continued faith and growth in the Spirit is required for the rest of the life of the believer.

Why don't you come right out and say what you mean, instead of cloaking it with religious words? What you're really saying is that confession and baptism must be present before one can be saved - and if there is no confession and baptism, then there is no salvation.

I thought that was what I had said many, many times, because that is what the Scriptures say. But if you want me to say it in that way, then I will say it in that way:
Repentance (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, John 3:5) must be present before one can be saved, and if there is no repentance, confession, and baptism, then salvation is not received.

By the way, could you quote the Bible verse that talks about an "active, effective faith? I will be surprised if you find one.

James 2:14-26

Either a person has faith, as defined by Hebrews 11:1, or he does not. This smokescreen called "mental assent" is not mentioned in the Bible.
Faith is not confession and baptism.
You chose the wrong verses to prove your point.
Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith - not by confession and baptism - and faith is defined in Heb.11:1, which is not the definition that Doug and the BRP would have us believe.
Salvation is a gift of God, not as a result of works, like confession and baptism; so that no one may boast.

Dwight, you have completely missed the point of the passages I have cited and quoted. Faith is not repentance, confession, and baptism, but repentance, confession, and baptism are actions of faith that do result in the reception of salvation.
Eph 2:8-9 says that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. It is through the actions of faith (that God says result in salvation (repentance, confession, and baptism)) that we receive the gift of salvation. If there is no actions of faith, then that "faith" is dead, imperfect, and useless (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26). And a dead, imperfect, and useless faith is exactly that: useless for anything, because the dead cannot bring life.

 

[TomL]

Correct, it does not say that here. But it also does not tell us in this passage what Paul preached to him when he preached the Gospel to them. But we are told elsewhere that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Jesus' resurrection. And again, belief means to have faith, and to have faith requires the actions of obedience that God has said lead to receiving salvation.

Correct, there is no water in Acts 3:19, but that is irrelevant. All of the NT Scripture is equally applicable to the NT Christ follower, and so EVERY passage that speaks about what is required to receive salvation is equally applicable at the same time. Thus, repentance is just as important as confession of Jesus which is just as important as baptism to the reception of salvation.

The exact same response for Acts 3:19.

Yes, it does. It says that we must be baptized "in order to receive forgiveness of sin". This means that baptism must come BEFORE salvation is received.

Just as we are saved through the water of baptism. It is not the water that does the work; it is the Holy Spirit who takes action while we are in the water to remove our sins and unite us to Christ. But if we don't pass through the water, then we do not encounter the Holy Spirit, and our sins are not removed.

Um we are saved when we believe

John 3:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 3:36 (LEB) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 (LEB) — 47 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Acts 10:43 (LEB) — 43 To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:39 (LEB) — 39 by this one everyone who believes is justified!

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Romans 3:22 (LEB) — 22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction,

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,


Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[Doug Brents]

Um we are saved when we believe

John 3:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 3:36 (LEB) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 (LEB) — 47 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Acts 10:43 (LEB) — 43 To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:39 (LEB) — 39 by this one everyone who believes is justified!

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Romans 3:22 (LEB) — 22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction,

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Every single passage of Scripture MUST be true at the same time. So, if those were the only passages that talked about salvation then I would completely agree with you. But those are not the only passages that talk about salvation. There are several other passages that talk about things other than "belief only" being required in order to receive salvation. And those passages MUST also be true at the same time that these passages are true. So when Rom 10:9-10 says that both belief AND confession of Jesus' name are required to receive salvation, and then Acts 2:38 says that both repentance and baptism are required to receive salvation, we MUST accept that all of these are true AT THE SAME TIME. Your "easy believeism" is nonsense. It does not account for ALL of what Scripture tells us is required by God to receive His gift of salvation.

 

[TomL]

Every single passage of Scripture MUST be true at the same time. So, if those were the only passages that talked about salvation then I would completely agree with you. But those are not the only passages that talk about salvation. There are several other passages that talk about things other than "belief only" being required in order to receive salvation. And those passages MUST also be true at the same time that these passages are true. So when Rom 10:9-10 says that both belief AND confession of Jesus' name are required to receive salvation, and then Acts 2:38 says that both repentance and baptism are required to receive salvation, we MUST accept that all of these are true AT THE SAME TIME. Your "easy believeism" is nonsense. It does not account for ALL of what Scripture tells us is required by God to receive His gift of salvation.

And you cannot accept the verses I quoted as true in themselves; therefore you fail your own criteria

Um we are saved when we believe

John 3:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 3:36 (LEB) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 (LEB) — 47 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Acts 10:43 (LEB) — 43 To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:39 (LEB) — 39 by this one everyone who believes is justified!

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Romans 3:22 (LEB) — 22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction,

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[Doug Brents]

And you cannot accept the verses I quoted as true in themselves; therefore you fail your own criteria

The verses you quoted are true in themselves, but they do not stand by themselves. They are only small excerpts from the whole of Scripture, and they do not constitute the whole of what Scripture says about salvation. If you accept Scripture as the Word of God, and you believe in the inerrant nature of God, then you must believe in the inerrant nature of Scripture as well. That means that ALL of Scripture must be true at all times. If you only accept the verses you quoted as relating to salvation, then you make a lie of passages like Acts 3:19 which says that repentance is required in order to receive salvation. And Rom 10:9-10 which says that both belief and confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth is required in order to receive salvation. And Acts 2:38 which says that once one believes they must still repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin (salvation).

 

[TomL]

The verses you quoted are true in themselves, but they do not stand by themselves. They are only small excerpts from the whole of Scripture, and they do not constitute the whole of what Scripture says about salvation. If you accept Scripture as the Word of God, and you believe in the inerrant nature of God, then you must believe in the inerrant nature of Scripture as well. That means that ALL of Scripture must be true at all times. If you only accept the verses you quoted as relating to salvation, then you make a lie of passages like Acts 3:19 which says that repentance is required in order to receive salvation. And Rom 10:9-10 which says that both belief and confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth is required in order to receive salvation. And Acts 2:38 which says that once one believes they must still repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin (salvation).

Not according to you. According to your theology they are all false until one is baptized with water

John 3:14–15 (LEB) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 3:36 (LEB) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 (LEB) — 47 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Acts 10:43 (LEB) — 43 To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:39 (LEB) — 39 by this one everyone who believes is justified!

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Romans 3:22 (LEB) — 22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction,

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[dwight92070]

Doug, you have stated that the period of Christ's ministry, recorded in the four gospels, that that is still part of the Old Covenant and that the New Covenant did not start until Christ's death. So what do you do with this verse?

Luke 16:16 (Jesus speaking) "The Law and the prophets (were) until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it."

 

[Doug Brents]

Not according to you. According to your theology they are all false until one is baptized with water

Your statement is completely wrong. As I have said many times: ALL Scripture must be true at the same time. These passages are completely true, but they do not explain what it means to "believe". It requires the reading of additional Scripture to discover that "believing/having faith" requires certain actions. Those actions do not negate these passages, but complete them as our actions do our faith.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, you have stated that the period of Christ's ministry, recorded in the four gospels, that that is still part of the Old Covenant and that the New Covenant did not start until Christ's death. So what do you do with this verse?

Luke 16:16 (Jesus speaking) "The Law and the prophets (were) until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it."

Reading the context of that verse, you can tell that it is not talking about when the Old Covenant ended and the New Covenant began. The Law of Moses was still being taught by everyone except Jesus and His followers. But with John and Jesus, the Gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be taught; not that it had already come, it was still at hand, still yet to come. Jesus said the New Covenant was established by His blood (Luke 22:20). But His blood was not shed until the next afternoon after He said that.