Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[Doug Brents]

Believe (4100) (pisteuo from pistis; pistos; related studies the faith, the obedience of faith) means to consider something to be true and therefore worthy of one’s trust. To accept as true, genuine, or real. To have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something or someone. To consider to be true. To accept the word or evidence of.

James 2:19+ You believe (pisteuo) that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe (pisteuo), and shudder.

Comment: In this passage, James explains that not all believing will result in salvation. The believing he is describing in this passage is a mental or intellectual believing that is not associated in a change in one's heart and thus in one's behavior or actions. Belief in the New Testament sense that effects the new birth denotes more than a "demonic" like, intellectual assent to a set of facts or truths. The demons believe but they are clearly not saved. Genuine belief does involve an intellectual assent and consent of one's mind, but also includes an act of one's heart and will. Biblical saving faith is not passive assent but an active staking of one's life on the claims of God. The respected Greek lexicon author W E Vine defines belief as consisting of

As highlighted above, just having the intellectual assent "belief" is not what saves. Without the actions of obedience behind the intellectual assent then the person does not really, truly believe, just as the demons. The demons not only believe, they KNOW that God is One. They are in the Spiritual realm, and can see God, but they will not obey Him, and so remain condemned. As James says in James 2:14-26, just "believing" is not enough. It also requires the actions that God has said lead to/result in salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 4:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21).

 

[Johann]

As highlighted above, just having the intellectual assent "belief" is not what saves. Without the actions of obedience behind the intellectual assent then the person does not really, truly believe, just as the demons. The demons not only believe, they KNOW that God is One. They are in the Spiritual realm, and can see God, but they will not obey Him, and so remain condemned. As James says in James 2:14-26, just "believing" is not enough. It also requires the actions that God has said lead to/result in salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 4:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21).

Correct but I hold to Spirit baptism and not water @Doug Brents.


Does 1 Cor 12:13 Describe the Spirit Baptism at Pentecost?

Justin Johnson


Paul says there is one baptism (Eph 4:5). No one dare make that water baptism since Paul clearly makes it baptism by the Spirit in 1 Cor 12:13 and Gal 3:27. Yet it is a common mistake to conflate Paul’s baptism by the Spirit and the baptism with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. The reasoning normally does not go further than that both baptisms utilize the Holy Spirit.

Yet, just because we read the same word (in Greek or English) it does not mean the context is the same. These two baptisms should be separated because of a difference in who is baptizing, who is being baptized, and why they are being baptized.

Who is Baptizing?

Mathew 3:11 is one of the most useful verses in the doctrine of baptisms. It clearly delineates who performs the different baptisms.

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” – Matthew 3:11
John performs the first baptism. Jesus performs the second and the third baptism.

John baptizes with water. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire.

One thing is certain: water is never doing the baptism. John is the agent who performs the baptism with water. Jesus is the agent who performs the baptism with fire. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not doing the baptism. Jesus is the agent who performs the baptism with the Spirit.

In Paul’s baptism of 1 Cor 12:13, we do not find John or Jesus performing the baptism.

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” – 1 Cor 12:13
Here, the Spirit is baptizing us into the body (of Christ). Romans 6:3 explains this as well.

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?” – Romans 6:3

This baptism is into Christ. This cannot be the water baptism of John which was into water. It cannot be the baptism performed by Jesus which was with the Spirit. It is most obviously the unique baptism described by Paul in 1 Cor 12 which is performed by the Spirit into Christ.

Greek prepositions

Some will make much ado about the underlying Greek prepositions in the verses mentioned above. Those who wish to make the baptisms the same will say that the words ‘by’ and ‘with’ are interchangeable in the Greek. Although this is an oversimplification in some cases it may be true.

Yet, the preposition does not determine the context of the baptism. Rather the clearly translated context determines the rightness of the English preposition. If the verses are reread with any of the prepositional variations that are suggested it remains obvious that the agents and the objects are different.

Knowing that lengthy discussions about Greek translations are mostly red herrings and of minimal usefulness to English speaking people, following are two other reasons why the baptisms are different despite the preposition.

Who is being baptized?

The audience is a significant factor in determining the context and application of the baptisms.

John’s baptism with water was to repentant Israel. This is not contested as he was in the wilderness of Judea and was teaching the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies to Jews under the Old Testament (Mat 3:1-6).

Jesus’ baptism with the Spirit which unarguably occurs at Pentecost is also unto repentant Israel (Acts 2:38).

Peter’s message was to an audience entirely of “men of Israel” and proclaimed his message as a fulfillment of the prophecies given to Israel about the Messiah and the kingdom (Acts 2:14).

“Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.” – Acts 3:24-25

It is evident that Peter was not preaching the same message that Paul taught about the cross, the Jew / Gentile church, the fall of Israel, their future destiny, or justification (see Peter vs Paul). Peter was following the law and righteousness with works as far forward as Acts 10:35 and Gal 2:11.

The nature of the audience and the message taught signifies a distinct baptism.

Why are they being baptized?

Both baptisms involving the Spirit do not utilize any earthly element. (Although you can make a case that the Holy Ghost baptism of Pentecost would not be evident without the laying on of hands; Acts 8:15-16.) Christ and the Spirit are the agent and object. In one Christ is the agent identifying New Testament Israel with the Spirit. In the other the Spirit is the agent identifying the new creature with Christ.

This simple difference is the most significant of all!

The purpose of the Holy Ghost baptism was to fulfill the prophecy of the New Testament in providing the power for the remnant of Israel to endure the tribulation, enter the kingdom, and supernaturally follow the law as was once required of them (Exodus 19:5-6).

“And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” – Eze 36:27
In order to be a part of the New Testament the believing remnant needed Christ’s blood (Heb 9:15-16), water baptism (Luke 7:29, Mark 16:16), and the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5-8).

This purpose of the anointing baptism by Christ with the Spirit was to teach them all things (John 14:26, 1 John 2:27). If they rejected this power then there remained no more forgiveness for them (Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:24-27).

Contrast this purpose with the Spirit’s function for believers under grace.

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” – Eph 1:13
By baptizing (identifying) us into Christ’s death there is no need for a testament or list of good deeds to keep us in proper standing with God. Instead it is the Spirit itself which becomes the seal and evidence of our union with Christ (Romans 8:9).

Instead of baptizing us into Israel’s New Testament (Heb 8:10), we are baptized into Christ himself. This new creature is not identified with any national covenants but contains members of any nationality (Gal 3:28).

Conclusion

Whereas the Pentecostal baptism was necessary to establish the kingdom promised to Israel, the baptism by the Spirit is needed to place us into the body of Christ. They are different baptisms with different agents, different audiences, and different purposes.

The danger of conflating the two is seen in many different forms the most egregious of which is held by some of our Pentecostal friends that if you are not filled with the Pentecostal Holy Ghost baptism then you are not a member of the church. “Where are those signs that follow?” they ask (Mark 16:17-18).

The answer is only found in a Pauline division.

Does 1 Cor 12:13 Describe the Spirit Baptism at Pentecost?

graceambassadors.com

J.

 

[Doug Brents]

Correct but I hold to Spirit baptism and not water @Doug Brents.


Does 1 Cor 12:13 Describe the Spirit Baptism at Pentecost?

1 Cor 12:13 does not exclude water baptism, and 1 Pet 3:21 defines the baptism during which we are saved as necessitating water, as does John 3:5, and Acts 8:36 demonstrates that the baptism taught in the first years of the Church included water. Further, the baptism during which we are saved necessitates human action on the part of both the teacher (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16) and the student (Acts 2:38). So, while the Holy Spirit is the active component during baptism, without the water you don't really have New Testament baptism.

Justin Johnson
Paul says there is one baptism (Eph 4:5). No one dare make that water baptism since Paul clearly makes it baptism by the Spirit in 1 Cor 12:13 and Gal 3:27. Yet it is a common mistake to conflate Paul’s baptism by the Spirit and the baptism with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. The reasoning normally does not go further than that both baptisms utilize the Holy Spirit.

Yet, just because we read the same word (in Greek or English) it does not mean the context is the same. These two baptisms should be separated because of a difference in who is baptizing, who is being baptized, and why they are being baptized.

Who is Baptizing?

Mathew 3:11 is one of the most useful verses in the doctrine of baptisms. It clearly delineates who performs the different baptisms.

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” – Matthew 3:11
John performs the first baptism. Jesus performs the second and the third baptism.

In the New Covenant, who is it that is commanded to perform the baptism during which we are saved? Matt 28:19 says that it is the teacher who is to do the baptizing. And Mark 16:16 (Mark's version of the exact same statement of Jesus) says that during/because of this baptism we are saved.

John baptizes with water. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire.

One thing is certain: water is never doing the baptism. John is the agent who performs the baptism with water. Jesus is the agent who performs the baptism with fire. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not doing the baptism. Jesus is the agent who performs the baptism with the Spirit.

The baptism that Jesus performed with the Holy Spirit was unique to two very significant but unique events. When Jesus sent the Holy Spirit upon the Jews on Pentecost and then the Gentiles at Cornelius' house, neither case was for the purpose of salvation.
The Jews upon whom the Spirit fell on Pentecost were already saved. They were Jesus' inner circle; His eleven Apostles and 109 other most loyal disciples. They had already been baptized into Christ (John 4:1), and had received the indwelling of the Spirit (at least the Apostles had)(John 20:22), so all that they received on Pentecost was miraculous empowerment (tongues and praise in particular).
The Gentiles at Cornelius' house were not yet saved, and did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit until they were baptized into Christ in water shortly after the Spirit fell on them in power (again praise and tongues). Jesus said that we cannot enter the Kingdom of God except by being born again through water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

In Paul’s baptism of 1 Cor 12:13, we do not find John or Jesus performing the baptism.

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” – 1 Cor 12:13
Here, the Spirit is baptizing us into the body (of Christ). Romans 6:3 explains this as well.

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?” – Romans 6:3

This baptism is into Christ. This cannot be the water baptism of John which was into water. It cannot be the baptism performed by Jesus which was with the Spirit. It is most obviously the unique baptism described by Paul in 1 Cor 12 which is performed by the Spirit into Christ.

As Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, and 1 Pet 3:21 all depict, the baptism during which we are saved involves water and the Spirit taking action to remove our sin and unite us with Christ. This is not "Spirit baptism" which as was pointed out above only occurred twice in all of history.

Who is being baptized?

The audience is a significant factor in determining the context and application of the baptisms.

John’s baptism with water was to repentant Israel. This is not contested as he was in the wilderness of Judea and was teaching the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies to Jews under the Old Testament (Mat 3:1-6).

Jesus’ baptism with the Spirit which unarguably occurs at Pentecost is also unto repentant Israel (Acts 2:38).

Peter’s message was to an audience entirely of “men of Israel” and proclaimed his message as a fulfillment of the prophecies given to Israel about the Messiah and the kingdom (Acts 2:14).

“Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.” – Acts 3:24-25

It is evident that Peter was not preaching the same message that Paul taught about the cross, the Jew / Gentile church, the fall of Israel, their future destiny, or justification (see Peter vs Paul). Peter was following the law and righteousness with works as far forward as Acts 10:35 and Gal 2:11.

The nature of the audience and the message taught signifies a distinct baptism.

The message is slightly different because the understanding and background knowledge of each group is different. The Jews on Pentecost had been there at Jesus' crucifixion. They were intimately aware of the details of what happened just 50 days earlier. But the Jew/Gentile audiences of Paul were well removed (by several years) and most of them were not in Jerusalem during Jesus death. They had to be told/reminded of these events, and the significance these events had toward their salvation. As we are told in several places, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, male or female, slave or free, we are all the same before God. The only difference between people today is are they in Christ or outside of Christ.

Why are they being baptized?

Both baptisms involving the Spirit do not utilize any earthly element. (Although you can make a case that the Holy Ghost baptism of Pentecost would not be evident without the laying on of hands; Acts 8:15-16.) Christ and the Spirit are the agent and object. In one Christ is the agent identifying New Testament Israel with the Spirit. In the other the Spirit is the agent identifying the new creature with Christ.

This simple difference is the most significant of all!

The purpose of the Holy Ghost baptism was to fulfill the prophecy of the New Testament in providing the power for the remnant of Israel to endure the tribulation, enter the kingdom, and supernaturally follow the law as was once required of them (Exodus 19:5-6).

“And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” – Eze 36:27
In order to be a part of the New Testament the believing remnant needed Christ’s blood (Heb 9:15-16), water baptism (Luke 7:29, Mark 16:16), and the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5-8).

This purpose of the anointing baptism by Christ with the Spirit was to teach them all things (John 14:26, 1 John 2:27). If they rejected this power then there remained no more forgiveness for them (Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:24-27).

Contrast this purpose with the Spirit’s function for believers under grace.

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” – Eph 1:13
By baptizing (identifying) us into Christ’s death there is no need for a testament or list of good deeds to keep us in proper standing with God. Instead it is the Spirit itself which becomes the seal and evidence of our union with Christ (Romans 8:9).

Instead of baptizing us into Israel’s New Testament (Heb 8:10), we are baptized into Christ himself. This new creature is not identified with any national covenants but contains members of any nationality (Gal 3:28).

The purpose of baptism in the NT Church is first and foremost to remove sin (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27). Our sins are removed and we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection, and clothed with Christ, and adopted as children of God. These other things you mention are also received at that time: empowerment of the indwelling Spirit, empowerment to endure tribulation, understanding of the Scriptures, etc.

 

[Johann]

1 Cor 12:13 does not exclude water baptism, and 1 Pet 3:21 defines the baptism during which we are saved as necessitating water, as does John 3:5, and Acts 8:36 demonstrates that the baptism taught in the first years of the Church included water. Further, the baptism during which we are saved necessitates human action on the part of both the teacher (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16) and the student (Acts 2:38). So, while the Holy Spirit is the active component during baptism, without the water you don't really have New Testament baptism.

In the New Covenant, who is it that is commanded to perform the baptism during which we are saved? Matt 28:19 says that it is the teacher who is to do the baptizing. And Mark 16:16 (Mark's version of the exact same statement of Jesus) says that during/because of this baptism we are saved.

The baptism that Jesus performed with the Holy Spirit was unique to two very significant but unique events. When Jesus sent the Holy Spirit upon the Jews on Pentecost and then the Gentiles at Cornelius' house, neither case was for the purpose of salvation.
The Jews upon whom the Spirit fell on Pentecost were already saved. They were Jesus' inner circle; His eleven Apostles and 109 other most loyal disciples. They had already been baptized into Christ (John 4:1), and had received the indwelling of the Spirit (at least the Apostles had)(John 20:22), so all that they received on Pentecost was miraculous empowerment (tongues and praise in particular).
The Gentiles at Cornelius' house were not yet saved, and did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit until they were baptized into Christ in water shortly after the Spirit fell on them in power (again praise and tongues). Jesus said that we cannot enter the Kingdom of God except by being born again through water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

As Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, and 1 Pet 3:21 all depict, the baptism during which we are saved involves water and the Spirit taking action to remove our sin and unite us with Christ. This is not "Spirit baptism" which as was pointed out above only occurred twice in all of history.

The message is slightly different because the understanding and background knowledge of each group is different. The Jews on Pentecost had been there at Jesus' crucifixion. They were intimately aware of the details of what happened just 50 days earlier. But the Jew/Gentile audiences of Paul were well removed (by several years) and most of them were not in Jerusalem during Jesus death. They had to be told/reminded of these events, and the significance these events had toward their salvation. As we are told in several places, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, male or female, slave or free, we are all the same before God. The only difference between people today is are they in Christ or outside of Christ.

The purpose of baptism in the NT Church is first and foremost to remove sin (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27). Our sins are removed and we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection, and clothed with Christ, and adopted as children of God. These other things you mention are also received at that time: empowerment of the indwelling Spirit, empowerment to endure tribulation, understanding of the Scriptures, etc.

What church are you affiliated with @Doug Brents?

Thanks

J.

 

[Doug Brents]

What church are you affiliated with @Doug Brents?

Thanks

J.

I am affiliated with the Church that Jesus paid for with His life's blood, that He started on Pentecost, and that He said He would build on the confession that Peter gave. There is only one Church for it is the body of Christ, just as there is only one Lord, and one faith, and one baptism, etc.

Right now I worship with two different congregations: a in-home congregation in my neighborhood, and a larger "non-denominational" (which has become a denomination) congregation near me.

Why do you ask?

 

[Johann]

I am affiliated with the Church that Jesus paid for with His life's blood, that He started on Pentecost, and that He said He would build on the confession that Peter gave. There is only one Church for it is the body of Christ, just as there is only one Lord, and one faith, and one baptism, etc.

Right now I worship with two different congregations: a in-home congregation in my neighborhood, and a larger "non-denominational" (which has become a denomination) congregation near me.

Why do you ask?

Are you Catholic?
There's a reason why I ask.

J.

 

[Johann]

I am affiliated with the Church that Jesus paid for with His life's blood, that He started on Pentecost, and that He said He would build on the confession that Peter gave. There is only one Church for it is the body of Christ, just as there is only one Lord, and one faith, and one baptism, etc.

Right now I worship with two different congregations: a in-home congregation in my neighborhood, and a larger "non-denominational" (which has become a denomination) congregation near me.

Why do you ask?

I do understand if you don't want to admit you are Catholic.

Thanks

J.

 

[Doug Brents]

Are you Catholic?
There's a reason why I ask.
I do understand if you don't want to admit you are Catholic.

Thanks

J.

No, I am not now, nor have I ever been, associated with the papist catholic cult.

 

[dwight92070]

Why are you afraid of Acts 26:15-18? Of course you are, because there Jesus Himself is giving His commission personally and directly to Saul on the road to Damascus. Ananias has not even entered the picture yet.

You are also afraid of those verses because they contradict your false belief that Saul was not saved, delivered, born again, sanctified, and forgiven RIGHT THERE ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS.

Your rationalization about privates and generals means nothing.

Ananias was not blinded by Jesus, because he only saw a vision of Jesus, NOT JESUS HIMSELF. Paul saw JESUS HIMSELF. Even Ananias told Saul "the God of our Fathers .. has appointed you TO SEE THE RIGHTEOUS ONE AND TO HEAR AN UTTERANCE FROM HIS MOUTH. " Acts 22:14
Ananias DID NOT SEE JESUS' GLORY - BUT SAUL DID.

 

[Johann]

You are also afraid of those verses because they contradict your false belief that Saul was not saved, delivered, born again, sanctified, and forgiven RIGHT THERE ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS.

I’m not sure who this was directed at, but these accusations of "false beliefs" from one supposed believer to another really need to stop-they only shut down meaningful dialogue.

J.

 

[dwight92070]

What work did Abraham perform in Genesis 15:1-6 to show that he had faith?
Paul refers to this verse in Romans 4:1-5.
So what work did Paul say that Abraham performed to show that he had faith?

Who was James writing his letter to? Christians or non-Christians?

 

[Johann]

What work did Abraham perform in Genesis 15:1-6 to show that he had faith?
Paul refers to this verse in Romans 4:1-5.
So what work did Paul say that Abraham performed to show that he had faith?

Are you having a conversation with yourself?

J.

 

[dwight92070]

Are you having a conversation with yourself?

J.

Actually, I started this thread way back in June and I'm open to anyone's input. I was not aware that we are only allowed to converse with one person at a time. In fact, when I have done that, many others interject their opinions or comments or even bring up a different topic, and that's fine. More recently my primary dialogue has been between Doug and me, with many others interjecting, including yourself. If you check pages 39, 40, and 41, you will see that that has been the case.
As far as my "false belief" comment, I thought we were allowed to state our opinion of doctrines or beliefs. For example, Doug in #808 spoke of the Catholic papist cult. How is that different from my comment? Obviously, Doug believes that that system is a cult or a false belief. I detect sarcasm in your question. Apparently, you think sarcasm is okay. Can you explain how sarcasm and comments like "supposed believer" promotes meaningful dialogue? So maybe you should remove the log before taking out the splinter.
By the way, Doug knows, just from my topic, that I'm talking to him, so I don't see the need to identify him each time I post.

 

[Carol]

Are you having a conversation with yourself?

J.

Sometimes that's what it takes in order to have an intelligent conversation.

 

[dwight92070]

Doug - What work did Abraham perform in Genesis 15:1-6 to show that he had faith?
Paul refers to this verse in Romans 4:1-5.
So what work did Paul say that Abraham performed to show that he had faith?

Who was James writing his letter to? Christians or non-Christians?

 

[dwight92070]

And what is faith? It is not purely mental, as you would have us believe. For faith to be real, there is a required physical action part of it, just as James says in James 2 and the Hebrew writer depicts in Heb 11. If there is no action, then there is not faith, it is dead. And dead faith cannot bring about new life.

[Dwight] Heb. 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
Your made-up definition is false. The Bible tells us the truth. Heb. 11:1 tells us what faith is.

Even the Lord of the Sabbath is still bound to the Law. Not even God is above the Law. Gal 4:4-5 says that Jesus came as a man, born under the Law. Being born under the Law, he was subject to the Law, and any violation of the Law would have made Him a sinner (and thus incapable of saving us). It would absolutely been sin for Him to break the sabbath.

[Dwight] What? "Not even God is above the Law?" What an ignorant statement. God does whatever He pleases.
Psalms 115:3 "But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases." Once again, the Bible is true. Your words are false. And since Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and God in the flesh, He could do whatever He pleased. Sometimes He kept the Law - sometimes He broke it. Even the apostle John said that "He ... was breaking the Sabbath." John 5:18 The Bible is right. You are wrong.

Yes, the Bible does say that. I do not say it on my own authority, but I speak what the Bible speaks. A person is not a "believer" until and unless he has done (exhibited faith) what the Scripture says is required to become a believer. In a room full of chairs and tired people, the "believers" (in the chairs) are the ones sitting down. Anyone still standing is not really a "believer".

[Dwight} Please give the verse that says that a believer who is not baptized is not saved.
No such verse exists, unless you would like to make up one, like all your other answers - once again, you are mistaken.

You cannot be born again until you have died to sin, and you do not die to sin until you are baptized. Rebirth requires both the Spirit AND water. Without both, Jesus' words are not fulfilled. Baptism does not occur "after you are born again", because Scripture says that it is DURING baptism that salvation occurs.

[Dwight] False, there is no scripture that says that, except in your imagination. Once again, the Bible has the truth, you are in error.
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." 1 John 5:1 The Bible speaks the truth that no baptism is necessary to be born again.

Again, that is not what God says in His Word. Faith is our belief in God's Word IN ACTION. If there is no action, then there really isn't any belief, and if there is no belief, then there is no salvation.

[Dwight] That's not what Heb. 11:1 says, which is the Bible definition of faith. Tell me, what action is recorded in that verse? There's NO ACTION, because we're saved by faith, not by some action.

Wrong! Baptism is required to become a new believer. It is the point at which one dies to sin, is clothed with Christ, is resurrected with Christ, and joins the family of God.

[Dwight] No verse says that. You're wrong again.

That is not Jesus admitting that He broke the sabbath. Jesus understood the true meaning of God's command to honor the sabbath. The Pharisees did not understand it, and had formulated their own rules around God's command (and these Jesus broke), but their rules were not God's commands, nor were they honoring of the intent of God's command.

[Dwight] The apostle John said He WAS breaking the Sabbath. So do we go by what you say or by the word of God?

Again, that did not violate the sabbath. There is no provision in the Law that a man was forbidden to carry his pallet or to walk on the sabbath.

[Dwight] The Lord Himself said that it was a violation of His commands: Jeremiah 17:21-27 This is what the LORD says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, BUT KEEP THE SABBATH DAY HOLY, AS I COMMANDED YOUR ANCESTORS."

So do we believe you, or the commandment of God?

 

[dwight92070]

As highlighted above, just having the intellectual assent "belief" is not what saves. Without the actions of obedience behind the intellectual assent then the person does not really, truly believe, just as the demons. The demons not only believe, they KNOW that God is One. They are in the Spiritual realm, and can see God, but they will not obey Him, and so remain condemned. As James says in James 2:14-26, just "believing" is not enough. It also requires the actions that God has said lead to/result in salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 4:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21).

No source is cited for these comments. Why not? Is it because it comes from a person who believes in baptismal regeneration?
Please give the source. Don't hide the truth.
By the way, what happened to those comments? I saw them earlier, but they seem to have been taken down. That looks very suspicious, like someone doesn't want us to find out who the author was.

Well, I'm sure Doug or Johann or whoever put them up would be kind enough to post them again. After all, they have nothing to hide, right?
Doug, you referred to the comments by saying: "As highlighted above ..." so I'm sure you won't mind reposting them for all to see - only this time you will actually give us THE SOURCE.

 

[Johann]

No source is cited for these comments. Why not? Is it because it comes from a person who believes in baptismal regeneration?
Please give the source. Don't hide the truth.
By the way, what happened to those comments? I saw them earlier, but they seem to have been taken down. That looks very suspicious, like someone doesn't want us to find out who the author was.

Well, I'm sure Doug or Johann or whoever put them up would be kind enough to post them again. After all, they have nothing to hide, right?
Doug, you referred to the comments by saying: "As highlighted above ..." so I'm sure you won't mind reposting them for all to see - only this time you will actually give us THE SOURCE.

What has been taken down @dwight92070?

I'll gladly re-post it if it was from me.

J.

 

[Doug Brents]

Why are you afraid of Acts 26:15-18? Of course you are, because there Jesus Himself is giving His commission personally and directly to Saul on the road to Damascus. Ananias has not even entered the picture yet.

I am not "afraid" of Acts 26. What I am trying to get you to see is that it does not say what you think it says. The story of Paul's conversion is told three times, and in two of them the timeline is laid out very clearly. In the third, the timeline is condensed, leaving out details that are unnecessary for the listener to know at that point. We cannot rewrite the timeline of the first two just because the third doesn't give details. All Scripture must agree, so if you take your timeline, then the first two become false. That cannot be true.

You are also afraid of those verses because they contradict your false belief that Saul was not saved, delivered, born again, sanctified, and forgiven RIGHT THERE ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS.

Again, those verses do not "scare" me, because they do not change anything found in the first two tellings of the event. Saul was still in sin three days after his experience on the Road, and so he was not saved on the Road. He was saved when he was baptized three days after the Road.

Your rationalization about privates and generals means nothing.

Ananias was not blinded by Jesus, because he only saw a vision of Jesus, NOT JESUS HIMSELF. Paul saw JESUS HIMSELF. Even Ananias told Saul "the God of our Fathers .. has appointed you TO SEE THE RIGHTEOUS ONE AND TO HEAR AN UTTERANCE FROM HIS MOUTH. " Acts 22:14
Ananias DID NOT SEE JESUS' GLORY - BUT SAUL DID.

It is irrelevant that Saul saw Jesus' glory and Ananias did not. Seeing His glory does not make His words any more true, valid, powerful, or potent. Jesus came to speak directly to Ananias, just as He spoke directly to Saul. Same Jesus, same power, same glory. Just because one was blinded and the other was not does not make the one blinded more holy or righteous.

 

[Doug Brents]

Heb. 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
Your made-up definition is false. The Bible tells us the truth. Heb. 11:1 tells us what faith is.

We have been through this before, Dwight. That is a very bad translation of that verse. Faith is not just an assurance and conviction. The better translation is, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.". And when we read down through the rest of the chapter, what do we see? Each and every case of a person being praised for their faith, they are praised because of what they DID in addition to the thought they held in their head/heart.

What? "Not even God is above the Law?" What an ignorant statement. God does whatever He pleases.
Psalms 115:3 "But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases." Once again, the Bible is true. Your words are false. And since Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and God in the flesh, He could do whatever He pleased. Sometimes He kept the Law - sometimes He broke it. Even the apostle John said that "He ... was breaking the Sabbath." John 5:18 The Bible is right. You are wrong.

God is a god of Justice. He can establish any law He wants, but once He establishes a law, HE CANNOT BREAK IT. He cannot lie, He cannot violate His own character, and He cannot break His own laws.

Please give the verse that says that a believer who is not baptized is not saved.
No such verse exists, unless you would like to make up one, like all your other answers - once again, you are mistaken.

John 3:5 says that only those reborn of both WATER (baptism) and the Spirit will enter the Kingdom of God (be saved).
1 Pet 3:21 says that it is through baptism (in water like the Flood) that we are saved today.
Rom 6:1-7 says that it is in baptism that we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ.
Gal 3:26-27 says that it is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ and adopted as children of God.
Eph 5:26-27 says that it is by the washing of water that we are made pure, spotless, and holy before God.
Col 2:11-14 says that it is in baptism that our sins are cut from us and that we are resurrected with Christ.

If you have not been baptized into Christ then your sins are not removed, you are not clothed with Christ, and you are not saved.

False, there is no scripture that says that, except in your imagination. Once again, the Bible has the truth, you are in error.
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." 1 John 5:1 The Bible speaks the truth that no baptism is necessary to be born again.

That verse does not invalidate John 3:5 which says that you cannot be born again if you are not reborn through both WATER (baptism) and the Spirit. You can "believe" all day long, but if you don't pass through both water and the Spirit (baptism where the Spirit removes sin) then you are not saved.

That's not what Heb. 11:1 says, which is the Bible definition of faith. Tell me, what action is recorded in that verse? There's NO ACTION, because we're saved by faith, not by some action.

Heb 11:1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
That is the definition of faith. SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE absolutely include the necessity of action. Just as James tells us that faith without action is dead and useless. Just as Rom 10:9-10 states explicitly that a physical human action is necessary to receive salvation.

No verse says that. You're wrong again.

Numerous verses say that, but you refuse to accept Scripture because it shows that your preconception if false.

The apostle John said He WAS breaking the Sabbath. So do we go by what you say or by the word of God?

No, John did not say He was breaking the sabbath. It says He was "working", but His "working" did not violate God's Law. If violated the Pharisee's "hedge" around the Law, but it did not violate God's Law.

The Lord Himself said that it was a violation of His commands: Jeremiah 17:21-27 This is what the LORD says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, BUT KEEP THE SABBATH DAY HOLY, AS I COMMANDED YOUR ANCESTORS."

What is a "load"? The Pharisees would define it as "anything" that you would carry in your arms. But that is not what God commanded. For Jesus to tell the man to pick up his bed (a small roll of blankets and padding) does not constitute him carrying a "load".

No source is cited for these comments.

Numerous sources were cited for those comments. They are fully supported by Scripture.

Doug, you referred to the comments by saying: "As highlighted above ..." so I'm sure you won't mind reposting them for all to see - only this time you will actually give us THE SOURCE.

What are you talking about? The highlighted portion of his comment is still right there above my comment.