Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[Jim]

Nor do we see scripture that ones sins are forgiven and that he receives the Holy Spirit at the point of water baptism. Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 make it sound like our sins are forgiven at water baptism, but I believe that Peter's first command in Acts 2:38 "Repent" is what brought forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, NOT the water baptism. Likewise, in Acts 22:16, Ananias told Saul to "call on the name of the Lord", which brought about his sins being washed away, NOT the water baptism.

It is neither baptism in water, nor repentance the "brings forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit". Rather only God can do that. Only God can forgive sins and give the gift of the Holy Spirit. However, baptism is the occasion, the time in the life of the sinner, when God has promised to forgive sins and give the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is the honest reading of Acts 2:38 and other passages.

As for Acts 22:16, Ananias didn't tell Paul (Saul) to call on the name of the Lord. Rather he instructed Paul to be baptized, calling on the name of the Lord. The baptism that Ananias was talking about was the same baptism that is presented in Acts 2:38, namely, it is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. The very act of committing to being baptized is calling on the name of the Lord. Grammatically, in the Greek and also in English, calling is in the participial form modifying the verb baptized.

Paul knew that all of the 120 believers on the day of Pentecost had already been baptized in water, when they decided to follow Jesus. John 4:1 But in Acts 1:5, they were told that they would receive a 2nd baptism called being "baptized with the Holy Spirit". Even before their 1st baptism, some of them had been baptized by John the Baptist. So that's 3 different baptisms.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There is only one baptism. It is in the baptism of the repentant believer that God forgives his sins and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is water baptism and that is the occasion of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Being given the gift of the Holy Spirit is being immersed into the Holy Spirit. That is baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[civic]

Because I don't see the same interpretation in those verses that you do, my soul hangs in the balance? I could say the exact same thing to you - but I won't, because I don't believe that is true. I have been baptized and so have almost all here who disagree with you, and yet that's not good enough for you - and you suggest that that isn't going to be good enough for God either - that we may be lost forever, because our interpretation of those verses differs from yours.
Your "God" may send people to hell because they didn't properly understand some verses that were not clear - even though they repented, put their faith in Jesus, had their sins forgiven by the blood of Jesus, received the indwelling Holy Spirit and then later got baptized in water.

My God would not do that - He's not going to say, "Sorry, you didn't believe that all those things happened when you were baptized in water - you thought those things happened before you were baptized in water - I guess I'll have to send you to hell."

Jesus condemned legalism. That is exactly what you are - an extreme legalist. My God desires mercy, not sending people to hell on a technicality. In fact, a legalist is in more danger of hellfire than someone who is not. I hang my hat on the grace, mercy, and love of God through Jesus. You hang yours on your pet doctrine.

Ditto

 

[civic]

We don't go by church history to establish doctrine. We go by the Bible. As far as I know, nobody here argues against baptism in water. I certainly don't. Jesus commanded, #1- that disciples be made of all nations and then after that #2 that they be baptized. Nowhere in scripture do we read that that order is reversed - i.e. to be baptized first, in order to actually be a disciple, which is a believer.

Nor do we see scripture that ones sins are forgiven and that he receives the Holy Spirit at the point of water baptism. Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 make it sound like our sins are forgiven at water baptism, but I believe that Peter's first command in Acts 2:38 "Repent" is what brought forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, NOT the water baptism. Likewise, in Acts 22:16, Ananias told Saul to "call on the name of the Lord", which brought about his sins being washed away, NOT the water baptism.

Paul knew that all of the 120 believers on the day of Pentecost had already been baptized in water, when they decided to follow Jesus. John 4:1 But in Acts 1:5, they were told that they would receive a 2nd baptism called being "baptized with the Holy Spirit". Even before their 1st baptism, some of them had been baptized by John the Baptist. So that's 3 different baptisms.

John the Baptist said that Jesus Himself would be the One who would baptize in the Holy Spirit - no man would do it. In fact, did you notice that NONE of the 120 believers who received the baptism with the Holy Spirit on that day, had to be immersed in water in order to receive the "baptism with or of the Holy Spirit."? The Holy Spirit came on them without any water baptism at all. Acts 2:3-4 Also in verse 4, another term is used for this baptism - they were "filled with the Holy Spirit".

Also Jesus referred to His suffering and martyrdom as a baptism and said that even His disciples would be baptized with the baptism of suffering and martyrdom. So that's 4 baptisms. The first was done by John the Baptist, the second was done by Jesus' disciples, the third was done by Jesus Himself and the fourth was suffering and martyrdom which must have been led by the Spirit.

But Paul speaks of a fifth baptism in 1 Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body ... and were made to drink of one Spirit. So the Holy Spirit Himself performs this baptism, putting us into the body of Christ. Paul mentions this same baptism in Romans 6:3 "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus ...?" And again, Paul says "For all of you who were baptized into Christ ..." in Gal.3:27.

This baptism must the most important one of all, because by it, the Holy Spirit (no man) sets us into the body of Christ - which is synonymous with being saved or being born again. Therefore, when Paul speaks of one baptism, I believe he is speaking of this baptism.

Even after Pentecost, new believers were baptized in water, as a sign that they had decided, by faith, to follow and serve Jesus and their baptism was a "picture" of their being born again, which happened before they were baptized.

yep

 

[TomL]

What does this mean?

Tom, I have responded to this too many times already. Repeating yourself will not change the answer: "receive the Spirit", in this case and in most cases, does not have anything to do with the indwelling of the Spirit. In this case it ONLY refers to the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit. So your "basic logic" does not apply.

Without ever dealing with the logical objection and simply assuming your view (that is begging the question)

You affirmed one indwelt has received the Spirit

It can be sometimes be receiving the Spirit and sometimes not

If someone has not received the Spirit they are not indwelt

were they indwelt they would have received the Spirit

Your position is logically deficient

 

[dwight92070]

It is neither baptism in water, nor repentance the "brings forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit". Rather only God can do that. Only God can forgive sins and give the gift of the Holy Spirit. However, baptism is the occasion, the time in the life of the sinner, when God has promised to forgive sins and give the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is the honest reading of Acts 2:38 and other passages.

As for Acts 22:16, Ananias didn't tell Paul (Saul) to call on the name of the Lord. Rather he instructed Paul to be baptized, calling on the name of the Lord. The baptism that Ananias was talking about was the same baptism that is presented in Acts 2:38, namely, it is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. The very act of committing to being baptized is calling on the name of the Lord. Grammatically, in the Greek and also in English, calling is in the participial form modifying the verb baptized.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There is only one baptism. It is in the baptism of the repentant believer that God forgives his sins and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is water baptism and that is the occasion of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Being given the gift of the Holy Spirit is being immersed into the Holy Spirit. That is baptism with the Holy Spirit.

You are mistaken. The 120 in Acts 2 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, but they had been baptized in water long before that.

In Acts 2:38, we know the crowd that Peter preached to, received forgiveness of their sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit - because they REPENTED, not because they were baptized. This is confirmed in Acts 3:19, where Peter again states the ONLY requirement for their sins to be wiped away - "repent and return". Notice in both verses REPENTANCE is mentioned, but NOT water baptism. So they received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water.

Cornelius and his family received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44, and they had not been baptized in water yet.

The disciples in Acts 19 repented and believed in Jesus, then they were baptized in water, then after that Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism with the Spirit.

 

[TomL]

It is neither baptism in water, nor repentance the "brings forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit". Rather only God can do that. Only God can forgive sins and give the gift of the Holy Spirit. However, baptism is the occasion, the time in the life of the sinner, when God has promised to forgive sins and give the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is the honest reading of Acts 2:38 and other passages.

Yet the gentiles had received the Spirit prior to water baptism

and the Samaritans failed to receive the Spirit at their water baptism

It was the occasion in neither instant

 

[TomL]

There is only one baptism. It is in the baptism of the repentant believer that God forgives his sins and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit. That is water baptism and that is the occasion of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Being given the gift of the Holy Spirit is being immersed into the Holy Spirit. That is baptism with the Holy Spirit.

There is only one real baptism and that is the baptism en the Holy Ghost

It places men in the body

1 Corinthians 12:13 — 13 For en one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Water is a symbol of the moral cleanliness achieved

 

[Jim]

You are mistaken. The 120 in Acts 2 received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, but they had been baptized in water long before that.

In Acts 2:38, we know the crowd that Peter preached to, received forgiveness of their sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit - because they REPENTED, not because they were baptized. This is confirmed in Acts 3:19, where Peter again states the ONLY requirement for their sins to be wiped away - "repent and return". Notice in both verses REPENTANCE is mentioned, but NOT water baptism. So they received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water.

Cornelius and his family received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:44, and they had not been baptized in water yet.

The disciples in Acts 19 repented and believed in Jesus, then they were baptized in water, then after that Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism with the Spirit.

You and I disagree on what the Baptism with the Holy Spirit means. Baptism with the Holy Spirit was what happened to those who were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jim]

Yet the gentiles had received the Spirit prior to water baptism

Not true. The Gentiles received the power to speak in tongues from the Holy Spirit. They did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. They received the indwelling Holy Spirit when they were baptized in water.

and the Samaritans failed to receive the Spirit at their water baptism

Not true, they, as did those baptized following Peter's instructions in Acts 2:38, received the indwelling Holy Spirit. What did not receive was the empowering Holy Spirit. That they received when the apostles, Peer and John, came to lay hands upon them.

It was that power that Simon offered to buy.

 

[TomL]

Not true. The Gentiles received the power to speak in tongues from the Holy Spirit. They did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. They received the indwelling Holy Spirit when they were baptized in water.

Sorry the text states they received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Not true, they, as did those baptized following Peter's instructions in Acts 2:38, received the indwelling Holy Spirit. What did not receive was the empowering Holy Spirit. That they received when the apostles, Peer and John, came to lay hands upon them.

It was that power that Simon offered to buy.

Sorry again the text disputes your claim

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

 

[Jim]

Sorry the text states they received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?






Sorry again the text disputes your claim

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

I do think you have the wrong idea about what baptism in the Holy Spirit means. But you are not alone in that mistaken idea.

 

[TomL]

You and I disagree on what the Baptism with the Holy Spirit means. Baptism with the Holy Spirit was what happened to those who were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is baptism with the Holy Spirit.

The gentiles were baptized en the Spirit previous to water baptism

Acts 11:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

 

[Jim]

The gentiles were baptized en the Spirit previous to water baptism

Acts 11:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

I understand that you believe that what happened to them when the Holy Spirit fell on them was baptism with the Holy Spirit. I disagree. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is what happens when they are baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TomL]

I understand that you believe that what happened to them when the Holy Spirit fell on them was baptism with the Holy Spirit. I disagree. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is what happens when they are baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Read the text. It is not my opinion. It's scripture

Acts 11:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

 

[dwight92070]

You and I disagree on what the Baptism with the Holy Spirit means. Baptism with the Holy Spirit was what happened to those who were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Clearly false. Jesus Himself told His apostles that they would "be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Acts 1:5 This was obviously on the day of Pentecost in chapter 2 of Acts. They had already been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, some as far back as when Jesus started His ministry. At their baptism, they received the Holy Spirit with them but not in them. Later in John 20:22, the Holy Spirit moved into them.
On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, a completely new experience.

 

[Jim]

Clearly false. Jesus Himself told His apostles that they would "be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Acts 1:5 This was obviously on the day of Pentecost in chapter 2 of Acts. They had already been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, some as far back as when Jesus started His ministry. At their baptism, they received the Holy Spirit with them but not in them. Later in John 20:22, the Holy Spirit moved into them.
On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, a completely new experience.

What happened in Acts 2:4 was not a completely new experience. Various individuals throughout the OT were given the power to work signs, wonders and miracles. Even Balaam's donkey "spoke in tongues".

There is nothing before Acts 2 that says that anyone was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. That is completely new and inaugurated following Peter's sermon at Pentecost. What was completely new was the repentant believer being forgiven his sins and being given the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit upon being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

There was forgiveness of sins upon being baptized with the baptism of John, but the gift of the Holy Spirit was not given on that occasion (Acts 19:1-10).

I would add here that John the Baptist was the first to speak of baptism with the Holy Spirit. And there he was speaking not just to some few apostles. But rather he was speaking to the whole crowd that had come out from the country of Judea and all Jerusalem and were being baptized by him. Clearly the baptism with the Holy Spirit was to be for all such believers, not just a few selected individuals.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit was/is accomplished in the baptizing of the repentant believer in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

Without ever dealing with the logical objection and simply assuming your view (that is begging the question)

Begging what question? You never stated what question I was "begging".

You affirmed one indwelt has received the Spirit

It can be sometimes be receiving the Spirit and sometimes not

If someone has not received the Spirit they are not indwelt

were they indwelt they would have received the Spirit

Your position is logically deficient

No, Tom, it is not "logically deficient". You think it is because you cannot see the difference between the indwelling and the empowerment of the Spirit. As I have said, the phrase "received the Spirit" in Acts 8 refers only to the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit, not the indwelling. It cannot possibly refer to the indwelling, because it is clear that these men had the indwelling since they had been baptized into Christ, so they were saved, indwelt, and "in Christ".

Your position shows that you are blinded by your preconception.

 

[TomL]

Begging what question? You never stated what question I was "begging".

No, Tom, it is not "logically deficient". You think it is because you cannot see the difference between the indwelling and the empowerment of the Spirit. As I have said, the phrase "received the Spirit" in Acts 8 refers only to the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit, not the indwelling. It cannot possibly refer to the indwelling, because it is clear that these men had the indwelling since they had been baptized into Christ, so they were saved, indwelt, and "in Christ".

Your position shows that you are blinded by your preconception.

I did if you read

You have to deny the indwelling is receiving the Spirit, when you already agreed it is

Acts 8:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

you assumed it was only speaking of miraculous gifts that is begging the question

and it is contrary to your own confession

 

[Doug Brents]

I did if you read

You have to deny the indwelling is receiving the Spirit, when you already agreed it is

No, I do not have to deny that.

Acts 8:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

you assumed it was only speaking of miraculous gifts

I do not assume it is only speaking of miraculous gifts. It is clear from the Text. It says clearly that "He had not fallen upon them", as in what happened on Pentecost. It does not say that He had not come to live within them as is what happens when one comes to be "in Christ" (is saved). Clearly, these men were saved, and as such they had to have already had the indwelling of the Spirit, because He dwells within EVERYONE who is saved.

that is begging the question

Begging what question? You still have not explained what you mean by that phrase that you keep repeating.

and it is contrary to your own confession

No, it is not contrary to my own conclusion (or confession either for that matter).

 

[dwight92070]

What happened in Acts 2:4 was not a completely new experience. Various individuals throughout the OT were given the power to work signs, wonders and miracles. Even Balaam's donkey "spoke in tongues".

[Dwight] Actually it was a new experience. The 12 apostles did miracles before the day of Pentecost. So they didn't need the Baptism with the Holy Spirit to work miracles. You seem to assume that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is the point in which they were given power to work miracles. As I said before, they already had the Holy Spirit in them. John 20:22

There is nothing before Acts 2 that says that anyone was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Dwight] Wrong again. John 4:1 All new disciples of Jesus were baptized - this was not John's baptism. In fact this verse makes a distinction between the two baptisms. No it doesn't specifically say they were baptized in the name of Jesus, but what other name would they baptized in, since they were new followers of Jesus?

That is completely new and inaugurated following Peter's sermon at Pentecost. What was completely new was the repentant believer being forgiven his sins and being given the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit upon being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Dwight] So you think the 12 apostles followed Jesus around, and performing miracles for 3 1/2 years, and YET THEY DIDN'T GET THEIR SINS FORGIVEN UNTIL PENTECOST? Wow, are you confused.

There was forgiveness of sins upon being baptized with the baptism of John, but the gift of the Holy Spirit was not given on that occasion (Acts 19:1-10).

I would add here that John the Baptist was the first to speak of baptism with the Holy Spirit. And there he was speaking not just to some few apostles. But rather he was speaking to the whole crowd that had come out from the country of Judea and all Jerusalem and were being baptized by him. Clearly the baptism with the Holy Spirit was to be for all such believers, not just a few selected individuals.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit was/is accomplished in the baptizing of the repentant believer in the name of Jesus Christ.