Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[TomL]

No, I do not have to deny that.

Um you in fact did

and that after affirming onee indwelt has received the Spirit

I do not assume it is only speaking of miraculous gifts. It is clear from the Text. It says clearly that "He had not fallen upon them", as in what happened on Pentecost. It does not say that He had not come to live within them as is what happens when one comes to be "in Christ" (is saved). Clearly, these men were saved, and as such they had to have already had the indwelling of the Spirit, because He dwells within EVERYONE who is saved.

Um you ignore much of the text

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

It is clear they had not received the Spirit until the apostles laid hands on them

Begging what question? You still have not explained what you mean by that phrase that you keep repeating.

No, it is not contrary to my own conclusion (or confession either for that matter).

You are in denial

 

[Doug Brents]

Um you in fact did

and that after affirming onee indwelt has received the Spirit



Um you ignore much of the text

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

It is clear they had not received the Spirit until the apostles laid hands on them




You are in denial

I have pointed you to the correct understanding of the meaning of "received the Spirit" in that passage, but you refuse to see that they already had the indwelling and when the Apostles laid hands on them they received miraculous empowerment from the Spirit.

If all you have left is attacks against me personally then we are done here.

 

[TomL]

I have pointed you to the correct understanding of the meaning of "received the Spirit" in that passage, but you refuse to see that they already had the indwelling and when the Apostles laid hands on them they received miraculous empowerment from the Spirit.

If all you have left is attacks against me personally then we are done here.

You confessed that the indwelling is a receiving of the spirit

In Acts 8 the Samaritan were baptized with water, but the text states they did not receive the Spirit

Your comments are contrary to your confession and the text

 

[Doug Brents]

You confessed that the indwelling is a receiving of the spirit

In Acts 8 the Samaritan were baptized with water, but the text states they did not receive the Spirit

Your comments are contrary to your confession and the text

The text says they had not received the Spirit, but we know that they did have the Spirit indwelling them because they had been baptized into Christ; they were part of the Church. So that cannot be what the text here is talking about. The indwelling is one form of receiving the Spirit, and it is completely logical to say they had not received the Spirit, because they had not received the visible demonstration of the Spirit's empowerment. Two separate forms of "receiving the Spirit" that must not be confused with each other.

 

[TomL]

The text says they had not received the Spirit, but we know that they did have the Spirit indwelling them because they had been baptized into Christ; they were part of the Church. So that cannot be what the text here is talking about. The indwelling is one form of receiving the Spirit, and it is completely logical to say they had not received the Spirit, because they had not received the visible demonstration of the Spirit's empowerment. Two separate forms of "receiving the Spirit" that must not be confused with each other.

Do you do not know. You assume it

The text states they did not receive the Spirit

If indwelling is the result of receiving the Spirit to which you agreed

then logically they were not indwelt

You have taken a promise which was given to Jews who had crucified and rejected baptism in the name of Christ and had not yet at this time applied to any others and assumed it true for the Samaritans

so aside from ignoring the text you assume your view -begging the question

 

[Doug Brents]

Do you do not know. You assume it

The text states they did not receive the Spirit

If indwelling is the result of receiving the Spirit to which you agreed

then logically they were not indwelt

You have taken a promise which was given to Jews who had crucified and rejected baptism in the name of Christ and had not yet at this time applied to any others and assumed it true for the Samaritans

so aside from ignoring the text you assume your view -

There is no assumption at all. The promise of the Holy Spirit's indwelling is not just to the Jews, but is to all who are in Christ (Rom 8:9, 8:14, 1 Cor 3: 16, 6:19). There is NO ONE who is in Christ who does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling their heart. These men had been baptized into Christ, their sins had been forgiven, they were saved, so they had the indwelling of the Spirit, there can be no doubt. This means that the phrase "received the Spirit" cannot possibly be referring to the indwelling of the Spirit.

begging the question

Do you even know what that phrase means? What question am I begging? What do you mean by this?

 

[TomL]

There is no assumption at all. The promise of the Holy Spirit's indwelling is not just to the Jews, but is to all who are in Christ (Rom 8:9, 8:14, 1 Cor 3: 16, 6:19). There is NO ONE who is in Christ who does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling their heart. These men had been baptized into Christ, their sins had been forgiven, they were saved, so they had the indwelling of the Spirit, there can be no doubt. This means that the phrase "received the Spirit" cannot possibly be referring to the indwelling of the Spirit.

Do you even know what that phrase means? What question am I begging? What do you mean by this?

What does the text state

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

they had not received the Spirit

all the verses you quote are after the events of Acts 8

The gospel and the promises of the New covenant had yet to come to any but the Jews

The samaritans of Acts 8 had yet to receive the Spirit

 

[Doug Brents]

What does the text state

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

they had not received the Spirit

all the verses you quote are after the events of Acts 8

The gospel and the promises of the New covenant had yet to come to any but the Jews

The samaritans of Acts 8 had yet to receive the Spirit

Were they "in Christ"? Did Peter and John tell them to believe in Jesus? Did they teach them about Jesus? Did they instruct them to be baptized into Christ? No? Then they were already saved. They already had the indwelling. But they did not have miraculous empowerment, because Philip could not pass on miraculous empowerment (since it appears that only the Apostles could do so). So miraculous empowerment is the "receiving the Spirit" to which the phrase refers, not the indwelling.

 

[TomL]

Were they "in Christ"? Did Peter and John tell them to believe in Jesus? Did they teach them about Jesus? Did they instruct them to be baptized into Christ? No? Then they were already saved. They already had the indwelling. But they did not have miraculous empowerment, because Philip could not pass on miraculous empowerment (since it appears that only the Apostles could do so). So miraculous empowerment is the "receiving the Spirit" to which the phrase refers, not the indwelling.

Again what doers the text state

What does the text state

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

they had not received the Spirit

can you deny this

all the verses you quote are after the events of Acts 8

The gospel and the promises of the New covenant had yet to come to any but the Jews

The samaritans of Acts 8 had yet to receive the Spirit

 

[Doug Brents]

Again what doers the text state

What does the text state

Acts 8:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

they had not received the Spirit

can you deny this

all the verses you quote are after the events of Acts 8

The gospel and the promises of the New covenant had yet to come to any but the Jews

The samaritans of Acts 8 had yet to receive the Spirit

Cutting and pasting the same response over and over with different highlighting does not change the truth. They had not received the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit. It does not matter that the promises I cited were written after the events of Acts 8. What matters is that the promises were made to all mankind, not just the Jews. The Gospel was sent first to the Jews, and then to the Samaritans, and then to the Gentiles. But the promise that the Holy Spirit would indwell everyone who is "in Christ" is applicable to everyone, from Pentecost on, who is baptized into Christ.

 

[TomL]

Cutting and pasting the same response over and over with different highlighting does not change the truth. They had not received the miraculous empowerment of the Spirit. It does not matter that the promises I cited were written after the events of Acts 8. What matters is that the promises were made to all mankind, not just the Jews. The Gospel was sent first to the Jews, and then to the Samaritans, and then to the Gentiles. But the promise that the Holy Spirit would indwell everyone who is "in Christ" is applicable to everyone, from Pentecost on, who is baptized into Christ.

Nor does closing your eyes and denying your own words

The Logic is clear

You affirmed that one indwelt has received the Spirit

Yes or no?

The text states they did not receive the Spirit

yes or no?

Conclusion they were not indwelt for if they were indwelt they would have received the Spirit according to your own affirmation

Now deal with the logic

 

[Doug Brents]

Nor does closing your eyes and denying your own words

I did not change or deny my own words. You are misinterpreting my words, just as you have misinterpreted the Biblical text.

The Logic is clear

You affirmed that one indwelt has received the Spirit

That is one meaning of the phrase. But it is not the only meaning of the phrase. It is possible to have the Spirit (indwelling) and not have the Spirit (miraculous empowerment). And it is possible to have the Spirit (miraculous empowerment) and not have the Spirit (indwelling). It is also possible to have both or neither. But to say that just because someone "had not received the Spirit" they don't have the indwelling (when clearly they are in Christ and everyone who is in Christ has the indwelling) is to misread what the Scripture.

The text states they did not receive the Spirit

yes or no?

Conclusion they were not indwelt for if they were indwelt they would have received the Spirit according to your own affirmation

Now deal with the logic

I have already done so. You are focused on a very narrow understanding of what it means to "receive the Spirit".

 

[TomL]

I did not change or deny my own words. You are misinterpreting my words, just as you have misinterpreted the Biblical text.

That is one meaning of the phrase. But it is not the only meaning of the phrase. It is possible to have the Spirit (indwelling) and not have the Spirit (miraculous empowerment). And it is possible to have the Spirit (miraculous empowerment) and not have the Spirit (indwelling). It is also possible to have both or neither. But to say that just because someone "had not received the Spirit" they don't have the indwelling (when clearly they are in Christ and everyone who is in Christ has the indwelling) is to misread what the Scripture.

I have already done so. You are focused on a very narrow understanding of what it means to "receive the Spirit".

Fine as long as it is one meaning, then anyone indwelt would have received the Spirit

Think

but the Samaritans had not received the spirit according to the text, so they were not indwelt

This is basic logic

 

[Doug Brents]

Fine as long as it is one meaning, then anyone indwelt would have received the Spirit

Think

but the Samaritans had not received the spirit according to the text, so they were not indwelt

This is basic logic

Answer this question: were these men saved?

 

[TomL]

Answer this question: were these men saved?

You are diverting

Address the logic

Fine as long as it is one meaning, then anyone indwelt would have received the Spirit

Think

but the Samaritans had not received the spirit according to the text, so they were not indwelt

This is basic logic

 

[dwight92070]

The Holy Spirit does what He wants, and when He wants, not what we want, and when we want.

"The wind blows WHERE IT WISHES and you hear the sound of it, but do not know WHERE IT COMES FROM and WHERE IT IS GOING; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

So when a person repents and believes, it's totally up to the Holy Spirit whether He chooses to dwell in that person or not.

However we know from the Word, that if a person sincerely repents and sincerely believes in Jesus, we have this assurance:

1. "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Acts 10:43 and
2."For by one Spirit we were all baptized into (water? NO) one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all MADE TO DRINK OF ONE SPIRIT." 1 Cor. 12:13

The "person" who does the baptizing is invisible - the Holy Spirit. The baptism into the body of Christ is invisible - an inner work in our hearts, also known as the circumcision of Christ, Col. 2:11, "made without hands".

If we are just going through the motions and are not sincere and honest with God, then the Holy Spirit is not obligated to come into us.

 

[Doug Brents]

You are diverting

Address the logic

Already done.
Answer the question: Were the men in Acts 8 saved or not?

 

[Jim]

Fine as long as it is one meaning, then anyone indwelt would have received the Spirit

Think

but the Samaritans had not received the spirit according to the text, so they were not indwelt

This is basic logic

I am sorry, TomL but that is not correct. There is a difference between receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit and receiving the empowering Holy Spirit. They are not the same. The believer receives the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit in baptism in the name of Jesus Christ; that is universal. Only a select few received the empowering Holy Spirit.

 

[civic]

I am sorry, TomL but that is not correct. There is a difference between receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit and receiving the empowering Holy Spirit. They are not the same. The believer receives the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit in baptism in the name of Jesus Christ; that is universal. Only a select few received the empowering Holy Spirit.

No they are synonymous terms

 

[Jim]

No they are synonymous terms

No they are not. The words are the same, but they are used differently for different purposes. Both are works of the Holy Spirit, but they are not the same works. One is a work of indwelling and one is the work of the empowering. Both are works. It is the same word, "works" but they are not synonymous.