A Personal Reflection on the Trinity and Salvation

[mikesw]

Here's what the scriptures say about the antichrist?

I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [1 John 2:21-23]

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. [1 John 4:2,3]

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [2 John 1:7]

I don't see where being an antichrist has any bearing on whether one believes in the Trinity, a Triune God, or Jesus is deity.

I could only guess why you saw this as a reflection of your situation. No. What I was saying is that false messiahs would actually be pretentious in claiming to be the Messiah in defiance of the divine Son. So they would demonstrate the deceiving spirit and show the highest arrogance and self-exaltation. They would be exalting themselves against the divine Son who is of the Godhead. They would hardly be distinguished from Jesus if Jesus were just a man.

 

[Runningman]

I sure I'm a Christian and in line with all that Gods word tell us.

This is something I said to someone else, but it seemed like it was received well and I hope you, and anyone else who reads it, does as well.

This isn't a jab at all and I hope you all don't continue to take it this way. I really want you all to be better. However, as difficult as it is to hear, I don't mind letting you know because you need to be told. The doctrine of the trinity is a textbook example of eisegesis. That's not good.

Why? Because the Trinity is neither explicitly defined or directly stated in any single Biblical passage. Instead, various verses are collected from different books from a variety of unrelated contexts, put together and interpreted to to mean God is three persons when the Bible never actually describes God as three persons to begin with.

So what is eisegesis? Eisegesis is reading one's own ideas into a text instead of drawing meaning from the text. For example, if you start with the idea that "God is triune" (something the Bible doesn't say) and then you search for verses to support that belief, then you are engaging in the dictionary definition of eisegesis.

Exegesis is drawing out the intended meaning from a text based on its context, language, audience, and purpose. This is why we study the Bible so that we can accurately explain what it says, oftentimes not even needing to do anything more than simply quote a verse where the author represented an idea the way they wanted it represented in plain language.

So Unitarians practice exegesis because we take Biblical statements in their plain, direct sense without interpreting what they say. See the difference between what you all do and what Unitarians do?

The Bible clearly declares the Father is the only true God (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6) and we are quoting this directly from the Bible, not a later commentator like you do for your beliefs. The Bible is also consistent about the Father being the only true God (Deut. 6:4, John 20:17, 1 Timothy 2:5)

So the difference between the way you explain your god and the way we explain God is that we actually use the words and language the authors of the Bible used by simply quoting what they said. I hope that helps.

 

[Runningman]

So in reality your saying Unitarians misinterpret the bible. Thanks for the heads up.

Actual fact, that even the expressions that Jesus used indicate His deity. One of the most important of these was, “But I say to you.”

This was introduced in connection with a quotation from the Old Testament Scriptures. In effect, He was saying, “Moses said that, but I say this to you.” He was implicitly claiming the right or authority to supplement what they had learned from Moses, the one they regarded as having been God’s special spokesperson.

Take a look at the way Jesus reported these statements. He did not use the customary prophetic introduction, “The Word of the Lord came to me, saying …” Rather, he simply said, “I say to you.” He did not claim to be reporting the message God had revealed to him. He was claiming that his words were God’s words.

That's Right...Jesus is God.

Sorry, this made me chuckle. You think Jesus saying “I say to you..." means he is God? Sometimes I like to let the egg sit on peoples' faces for a bit before I tell them that others in the Bibles said the exact same thing.

 

[Runningman]

So you study Scientologists and Mormons and Unitarians then give advice on how to study the Bible? Good luck with that.

Read this...
In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun “Elohim” (“God”) is joined with the singular verb “created”: “In the beginning, [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.” The pattern is repeated in Genesis 1:27: “So [Elohim] created man in his own image, in the image of [Elohim] he created him; male and female he created them.”

It's in the video by Nabeel Qureshi above. Genesis 1:1 provides the first and fundamental building block of trinitarian theology.

Hebrew grammar rejects the idea of numerical plurality in elohim (whenever it denotes one God) and is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute, i.e., elohim refers to a singular individual (a He, or Him, or His). Keep reading past Genesis 1. God is a singular He, Him, His, I, and never a they or them in all of scripture. Elohim isn't about numerical plurality, but rather intensity and amplification when it refers to God. It's a bit like saying God with a lot of extra intensity behind it, it's used of individual humans as well. What's your workaround for that?

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Ah, so you don't understand sin sacrifices. Animal sacrifices were being used for the forgiveness of sins. How much more can a sinless man forgive sins if animal sacrifices were doing it?

You trinitarians take a lot of heat for rejecting the sin sacrifice of Jesus. Tell me, do you believe the immortal God died for your sins or a mortal man?

I believe Jesus died and was crucified and SHED HIS BLOOD for the sins of those who truly know who he is/was. Actually I stated that wrongly, because even demons know who He was... so it was for those who have an unwavering belief/faith in Jesus the Christ.

There is no Trinitarian that I have ever heard/read rejected/rejects the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[Hosanna]

Hebrew grammar rejects the idea of numerical plurality in elohim (whenever it denotes one God) and is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute, i.e., elohim refers to a singular individual (a He, or Him, or His). Keep reading past Genesis 1. God is a singular He, Him, His, I, and never a they or them in all of scripture. Elohim isn't about numerical plurality, but rather intensity and amplification when it refers to God. It's a bit like saying God with a lot of extra intensity behind it, it's used of individual humans as well. What's your workaround for that?

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

Not buying it. False doctrine like Unitarianism, that refers to teachings that are considered to deviate from the established, fundamental truths and core tenets of faith in God. True Christians use it to describe teachings that contradict or distort the clear message of the Bible called Trinitarianism.

It's a spinoff of the true and clear massage of the bible, that Jesus is God.

Trinitarianism is the central Christian doctrine that God is one God, existing as three co-equal, co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.

There is only one God, this single being is made up of three distinct but inseparable divine persons. Trinitarianism is one of the defining tenets of Christianity.

 

[amazing grace]

I could only guess why you saw this as a reflection of your situation. No. What I was saying is that false messiahs would actually be pretentious in claiming to be the Messiah in defiance of the divine Son. So they would demonstrate the deceiving spirit and show the highest arrogance and self-exaltation. They would be exalting themselves against the divine Son who is of the Godhead. They would hardly be distinguished from Jesus if Jesus were just a man.

Interesting point. You had quoted John 3:16
For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

Imagine how pretentious it would be for someone who is only as a creation in the world claiming that that others just have to believe in a man rather than in God. It is when men claim to be the Messiah instead of the divine Son that they demonstrate the anti-Christ spirit and the highest arrogance and self-exaltation.

Although I admit I did read it wrong and yes, I did take it to heart - not just for myself but for all who believe that God the Father is the only true God. We usually are accused of being the antichrist . . . so I do apologize.

Exactly why the Jewish leaders did not believe he was the Christ - no matter how many times he told them who he was. There have been many false prophets who have into the world; some even claiming to be Christ and there will be more.

BUT the spirit of antichrist is one who does not confess that Jesus has come in flesh. . . .

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. ...

 

[Runningman]

Not buying it. False doctrine like Unitarianism, that refers to teachings that are considered to deviate from the established, fundamental truths and core tenets of faith in God. True Christians use it to describe teachings that contradict or distort the clear message of the Bible called Trinitarianism.

It's a spinoff of the true and clear massage of the bible, that Jesus is God.

Trinitarianism is the central Christian doctrine that God is one God, existing as three co-equal, co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.

There is only one God, this single being is made up of three distinct but inseparable divine persons. Trinitarianism is one of the defining tenets of Christianity.

I wasn't asking you if you buy it or not. I was telling you how it is.

Here's a little homework assignment for you to prove my point. Find even one reference to God being a they or them and maybe your assertions will have some credibility. Good luck.

 

[Runningman]

I believe Jesus died and was crucified and SHED HIS BLOOD for the sins of those who truly know who he is/was. Actually I stated that wrongly, because even demons know who He was... so it was for those who have an unwavering belief/faith in Jesus the Christ.

There is no Trinitarian that I have ever heard/read rejected/rejects the sacrifice of Jesus.

Every trinitarian I have met wholly rejects the sacrifice of Jesus without really fulling realizing it until I have pointed it out. Some have seemed to smile and nod once they were made aware of it. I hope you aren't one of them.

So you can't have it both ways. Jesus can't be inseparable union of 100% man and 100% God and still die. This is precisely why there is no record of Jesus doing anything in the period between his death and resurrection, because he was dead. His body, soul, and spirit were sacrificed because he isn't God.

1 Peter 3
18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit

Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

 

[dwight92070]

If Jesus is only a man, then how could He "create all things"?

Colossians 1:16 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers of authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

Some will object and say, "That's speaking of the Father." Wrong, the very next verse says:
"He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything."
Verse 15 says: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

Give up your vain attempts at discounting that Jesus is God and the Trinity. You can't win against the truth.

 

[Hosanna]

I wasn't asking you if you buy it or not. I was telling you how it is.

Here's a little homework assignment for you to prove my point. Find even one reference to God being a they or them and maybe your assertions will have some credibility. Good luck.

I doubt you are capable of "telling it how it is." That's why I don't buy into your false Unitarianism beliefs.

Also, you are not my teacher. So you can keep you rabbit trail (convoluted path) of a homework assignment.

And I don't need luck, I have Jesus, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is God in the flesh. Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

“‘Very truly I tell you,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’”

Jesus is God in the flesh include John 1:1, which says, “The Word was God,” coupled with John 1:14, which says, “The Word became flesh.”

Thomas the disciple declared to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” John 20:28, Jesus does not correct him.

The apostle Paul describes Jesus as “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” Titus 2:13

The apostle Peter says the same, calling Jesus “our God and Savior” 2 Peter 1:1

This photo may prove your point. You wear it well.

 

[Runningman]

If Jesus is only a man, then how could He "create all things"?

Colossians 1:16 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers of authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

Some will object and say, "That's speaking of the Father." Wrong, the very next verse says:
"He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything."
Verse 15 says: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

Give up your vain attempts at discounting that Jesus is God and the Trinity. You can't win against the truth.

Because Jesus isn't the Creator.

Only the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, Creator, which are titles never given to Jesus in all of Scripture.

Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Acts 17
24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.

 

[Bobby Walker]

Because Jesus isn't the Creator.

Only the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, Creator, which are titles never given to Jesus in all of Scripture.

Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Acts 17
24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands.

Sure Jesus is the creator. And he is God. It's in the Bible and we see Jesus Revealed as Deliverer, King, and Incarnate Creator.

Matthew’s insistence on Jesus’ identity as Yahweh, the Creator, is motivated in part by a very practical concern. Matthew recognizes that salvation involves a new genesis, a new creation, in which the catastrophic consequences of sin on God’s creation are reversed and the world is restored according to God’s desire. Because Jesus is Yahweh, the Creator, he is vested with the power of new creation. Because Jesus is divine, he is more than capable of making his people new here and now, ultimately restoring all creation to its original design.

 

[Runningman]

Sure Jesus is the creator. And he is God. It's in the Bible and we see Jesus Revealed as Deliverer, King, and Incarnate Creator.

Matthew’s insistence on Jesus’ identity as Yahweh, the Creator, is motivated in part by a very practical concern. Matthew recognizes that salvation involves a new genesis, a new creation, in which the catastrophic consequences of sin on God’s creation are reversed and the world is restored according to God’s desire. Because Jesus is Yahweh, the Creator, he is vested with the power of new creation. Because Jesus is divine, he is more than capable of making his people new here and now, ultimately restoring all creation to its original design.

In Colossians 1:15, something trinitarians claim means Jesus is the Creator, it actually states that Jesus is created, ironically, and not God.

Jesus is of the creatures and the visible image of the invisible God:

Colossians 1
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Yes Paul clarified later and said the only God is invisible:

1 Timothy 1
17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That's the way to defang and declaw the wolf's interpretation of Scripture.

 

[civic]

Every trinitarian I have met wholly rejects the sacrifice of Jesus without really fulling realizing it until I have pointed it out. Some have seemed to smile and nod once they were made aware of it. I hope you aren't one of them.

So you can't have it both ways. Jesus can't be inseparable union of 100% man and 100% God and still die. This is precisely why there is no record of Jesus doing anything in the period between his death and resurrection, because he was dead. His body, soul, and spirit were sacrificed because he isn't God.

1 Peter 3
18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit

Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

You don’t understand the meaning of death which is your first mistake. You are still projecting


Next fallacy

 

[GallagherM]

Thank you all for your comments:

I just see a bit differently than other people but this i can assure;

Just because someone doesn’t believe in the Trinity, or maybe they’ve got doctrinal issues… doesn’t mean they aren’t having a relationship with God.

“The Lord knows those who are His.” — 2 Timothy 2:19
“Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” — 1 Samuel 16:7
“Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls.” — Romans 14:4
“If anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.” — 1 Corinthians 8:3

I don’t understand these judgmental people.

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged.” — Matthew 7:1–2
“Speak evil of no one, be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.” — Titus 3:2
“Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification.” — Ephesians 4:29

Is that what life is truly about… just condemning people? Or pointing out where they don’t square up with you personally?

“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” — John 3:17
“Mercy triumphs over judgment.” — James 2:13
“Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.” — Galatians 5:26
“Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.” — Galatians 6:2

Oh, I forgot—Scripture, in union with the Spirit of the Resurrected Lord Yeshua, is the only way your mind can truly be renewed.

“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” — Romans 12:2
“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” — John 17:17
“The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” — 2 Corinthians 3:6
“The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” — John 6:63

Sorry, sorry… it’s just been chopped up, split, and driven in so many directions. People quote ‘eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth’—but wait, Yeshua paid for those things.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.” — Matthew 5:38–39
“He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by His stripes you were healed.” — 1 Peter 2:24
“For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” — John 1:17

The Bible itself—people don’t read it. They find it non-useful.
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” — Hosea 4:6
“The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.” — 1 Corinthians 2:14
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.” — 2 Timothy 3:16

 

[praise_yeshua]

I no longer hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. For a time, I believed it was essential—something that had to be accepted without question. But through study, prayer, and reflection, I stepped away from that framework. Too often, I’ve seen division and hostility arise over this doctrine, and I believe such conflict misses the heart of the gospel.


That said, I have deep love and respect for those who affirm the Trinity. My disagreement isn’t a rejection of them—it’s a call to refocus. Because ultimately, salvation doesn’t come through doctrinal precision. It comes through faith in Yeshua, the one whom God has sent.


Jesus said, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). The emphasis is clear: knowing the Father and believing in the Son is the foundation of eternal life.


Paul echoes this in Romans: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). No creed or theological system can replace that simple, powerful truth.


So while doctrines may vary, and interpretations may differ, let us not forget: it is Yeshua who saves. Not our systems. Not our labels. Just Him.

I can't say that I've ever believed that Trinitarianism was essential to being saved. I have a low threshold for someone to be saved.

What I am concerned about is the fact of how people that are saved soon abandon learning about God. They do start well but they soon abandon God in their theology.

If I were to say that I believe you have abandon the faith of Jesus Christ, (not saying you're lost because of this) then how would you defend your love of Jesus Christ to me.

I would like to know what you'd answer. It would make me feel at peace knowing you're secure in your admiration of Jesus Christ.

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Notice that Jesus made it rather clear. It is clear that you will obey Him. You will keep HIS commandments.

Tell me how you love your Master and I will rejoice with you and in you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I could only guess why you saw this as a reflection of your situation. No. What I was saying is that false messiahs would actually be pretentious in claiming to be the Messiah in defiance of the divine Son. So they would demonstrate the deceiving spirit and show the highest arrogance and self-exaltation. They would be exalting themselves against the divine Son who is of the Godhead. They would hardly be distinguished from Jesus if Jesus were just a man.

Do you expect to be exactly like the Son in the Resurrection?

Can you answer this? Maybe we can reason thru this to these Unitarians who revile Jesus Christ.

 

[mikesw]

Do you expect to be exactly like the Son in the Resurrection?

Can you answer this? Maybe we can reason thru this to these Unitarians who revile Jesus Christ.

On earth we can normally try to practice love, justice, mercy, and kindness -- probably stuff I left off too. I have given up walking on water -- too much work.
At all times, Christ is the head and we are the body. It seems to remain true forever that he is the vine and we are the branches. We may end up with body like he showed in resurrection that consisted of flesh and bone but was more real than the walls of a house. Then also Jesus, even after the resurrection, is happy to call us friends and brothers and sisters. That appears to be an invitation or gift to his followers rather than pure equality.
Also, Christ fills all-in-all which is not something I will ever be noted for.

 

[Runningman]

Do you expect to be exactly like the Son in the Resurrection?

Can you answer this? Maybe we can reason thru this to these Unitarians who revile Jesus Christ.

You're reviling Jesus Christ by turning him into an idol. I am sure he is appalled and will judge you for it. Jesus Christ taught that the only true God is the Father,.