dwight92070
Active Member
With so much evidence, it's not that you can't believe it, it's that you don't want to believe it.
A Personal Reflection on the Trinity and Salvation
- Thread starter GallagherM
- Start date
Runningman
Active Member
Not according to Scripture. If you have a trinity god it's called idolatry.
There is only one God, the Father, according to Scripture.
Runningman
Active Member
Yet a human nevertheless. God is not a human according to Scripture. Number 23:19, Hosea 11:9, John 17:3, etc.
Runningman
Active Member
Let's stick with Scripture.
John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6. How many persons who are God do you see?
civic
Active Member
Yes it’s a willful rejection of Christ
Well you are denying Christ which is not saving
And this is scripture
John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:18 (NASB 95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
The I am's of Jesus
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
John 13:19 From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am
John 18:5–6 (NASB 95) — 5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am ” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when He said to them, “I am ” they drew back and fell to the ground.
civic
Active Member
Yes this is a salvific issue.
dwight92070
Active Member
What you meant to say was: "Let's stick with certain scriptures and avoid others."
But I'll play along anyway. Yes, I agree, each of your selected verses tell us that the Father is the One God.
So, no one is denying that. However when we look at all the Scripture we see that Jesus is also the One God, yet there are NOT two Gods.
Now let me ask you a question?
Is the Holy Spirit God?
civic
Active Member
Yep
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@TomL @civicYep
Are you speaking of Jews other then these?????
Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery— so that you will not be wise in your own estimation— that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27 “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Context
All Israel Shall Be Saved
…31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!…
Indeed it was Jews like these who had not responded. That is partly why the gentiles had become arrogant against them. That is the whole reason Paul shared his personal investigation into God's faithfulness despite the low response of Jews to the gospel.
dwight92070
Active Member
Runningham,
Is the Holy Spirit God?
Is the Holy Spirit God?
Runningman
Active Member
Psalm 45 is about a human king with a human queen, probably Solomon. So that's not God, but a god. Probably better to refer to Solomon as a magistrate or judge since he's human and a king, just like Jesus. However, Solomon and Jesus both have a God themselves because they are not themselves God. You posted the very verses that prove it. Psalm 45:6,7 and Hebrews 1:8,9 are the exact same verses I am quoting as well. So keep those Unitarian Scriptures coming.
Psalm 45:7 (NASB 95) — 7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.
However, Scripture teaches that compared to God, Jesus is a prince.
Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
Runningman
Active Member
I appreciate your bravery. In the history of this board, you must be the first trinitarian who had the guts to repeat what the Bible says about God. However, I sense some reservation. Would you take it a step further and call the Father the only true God?
Yes the Holy Spirit is indeed God.
I have some great questions for you.
Firstly, why do you think the Holy Spirit and the Father are never in the same room talking to each other?
Secondly, why would Jesus exclude the Holy Spirit in the below verse?
Matthew 11
27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
Um this is not humanity
Hebrews 1:8–12 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
The Father says of the son Your throne oh God
You are denying the very words of God
And regarding Psa 45
Psalm 45:6–7 (NASB 95) — 6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.
It also has God addressing another as God.
So, you are doubly wrong here.
And as for Acts 5 - A human is not one to grant repentance and forgiveness of sin
No but they are not there yet.
dwight92070
Active Member
Yes, of course the Father is the only true God. So is Jesus the only true God. So is the Holy Spirit the only true God. How can that be? Because they are "part and parcel" of each other. They are one essence. Yet at the same time they are separate from each other.
The traditional definition of the Trinity is that each of the three is God - yet they are not each other. I disagree with that. Biblically they ARE EACH OTHER, and at the same time, they are individuals separate from each other, and are each God - and together they are God.
But going by your reasoning, since Jesus says that He would ask the Father to give them ANOTHER helper - separate from Himself (i.e. the Father) and separate from Jesus, called the Spirit of truth - then the Holy Spirit cannot be God.
You point out the separation referred to between the Father and the Son, saying that they can't both be God.
Well, there is also a separation referred to between the Father and the Holy Spirit - so they also can't both be God - by your reasoning.
I say that all three are God individually and corporately and all three ARE each other.
Sad but trueYep
Runningman
Active Member
Yes that's humanity. Humans in the Bible are spoken of as having something forever. Jesus is one of them along with David and Melchizedek. David has an everlasting kingdom per 2 Samuel 7:16, Psalm 89:3-4, and Isaiah 9:7. Luke 1:32-33 and Melchizedek has an eternal priesthood per Hebrews 7:3,17,24.
So we know that having an eternal priesthood or kingship doesn't work for you.
Hebrews 1:10 refers to the previously mentioned God who anointed Solomon/Jesus in Hebrews 1:9. Obviously, Solomon isn't the Creator so it wouldn't make sense to call Jesus the Creator, something he is never called anyway. Jesus is himself created according to John 1:3,14, Colossians 1:15, and Revelation 3:14.
Your theology is positively riddled with contradictions and there's too much to keep repeating, but yes Jesus was granted authority to forgive sins. Only God can grant such authority, but a human can receive it, thus further proving Jesus is not God.
God granted Jesus and men authority to forgive sins:
Matthew 9
6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home.
8When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
So David and Melchizedek are called God?
And they created everything?
In any case 2 Sam 7:16 has Nathan speaking not God
Psa 89:3,4 concerns his seed not him
Isa 9:7 concerns he at Isa 9:6
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
It's not David but Christ
Luke 1:32 concerns Christ not David
Verse 32. He shall be great] Behold the greatness of the man Christ Jesus: 1st. Because that human nature that should be born of the virgin was to be united with the Divine nature. 2dly. In consequence of this, that human nature should be called in a peculiar sense the SON of the most high God; because God would produce it in her womb without the intervention of man. 3. He shall be the everlasting Head and Sovereign of his Church, 4thly. His government and kingdom shall be eternal. Revolutions may destroy the kingdoms of the earth, but the powers and gates of hell and death shall never be able to destroy or injure the kingdom of Christ. His is the only dominion that shall never have an end. The angel seems here to refer to Isa. 9:7; 16:5; Jer. 23:5; Dan. 2:44; 7:14 All which prophecies speak of the glory, extent, and perpetuity of the evangelical kingdom. The kingdom of grace and the kingdom of glory form the endless government of Christ.
Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 360.
Hebrews 1:8–10 (NASB95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
The previously mentioned God is the son who laid the foundation of the earth
None other than Jesus Christ God
who did created all
John 1:1–3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being
Hello
Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Heb 1:1–2God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
1 Cor 8:6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
How you can claim John 1:3 teaches Christ was created is beyond rationality
John 1:1–3 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
That is rather funny seeing the absurdity of your claims above.
So Christ has authority to forgive sin
Sin being an offense against God
Hello
Name an earthly man who has such power.
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