A Personal Reflection on the Trinity and Salvation

[Runningman]

Read the text.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB95) — 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

All things are by the Lord and men exist through him.

Just the church is a phrase that does not appear in the verse.

Christ came and was for the restoration of mankind.



Jesus is called the one Lord.

You show awareness of how to count to one at least.

Then which Lord is this below?

Acts 3
20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

 

[mikesw]

Ephesians 4:6 explicitly states that Father is the one God who is over all, including over Jesus. So your interpretations of a Jesus as a member of a co-equal, co-eternal, godhead don't make any sense.

This is what I have been trying to get you to understand. Begin with Scripture first and build the doctrines from there. Don't begin with your unsupported beliefs about a trinity first.

I often check the verses. they never say what you pretend they say.
Do you know Christian who says there are multiple gods?

 

[TomL]

You show awareness of how to count to one at least.

Then which Lord is this below?

Acts 3
20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

That does not erase the phrase one lord from this verse

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB95) — 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Maybe you should reconsider the trinity, which forms one Lord, one God.

John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[amazing grace]

If Jesus was human only, then there would have been no need for "the Holy Spirit" to "come upon" Mary or "the power of the Most High" to "overshadow" Mary, when Jesus was supernaturally conceived in her womb - THERE WAS NO HUMAN FATHER, so Jesus could not have been only a human. All humans have BOTH a human mother and a human father. Jesus NEVER HAD A HUMAN FATHER.

Correct, all humans EXCEPT Jesus have a human mother and father, conceived through an act of procreation between the mother and father.
Correct, Jesus never had a human father.
Correct, Mary was told that the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High would overshadow her and because of this the child to be born would be holy --- the Son of God ----- so, correct, Jesus was miraculously conceived in her womb.

My question would be - why couldn't Jesus been a human being?

 

[FreeInChrist]

FreeinChrist said: No one ever claimed Jesus was the Father.

Perhaps we should blow it up more and say the Father was His Mother.... Who was his mother.... why Wisdom of course.

You think that is silly

Isaiah did! Isaiah 9:6: "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; ... (this is Jesus) And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, ..."

No more so then your misinterpreting Isaiah 9:6

This verse is not a Trinitarian formula that calls Jesus Christ the Father.

Actually, it is easier to grasp the idea when the phrase is rendered literally into English, “Father of eternity.”

The first part of verse six makes reference to the incarnation of Jesus.

The part that lists the names by which He is called expresses His relationship to His people.

He is to us the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace. Considered in this way, we see that Jesus is the One who gives us eternal life. By His death, burial, and resurrection, He has brought life and immortality to light. Truly, He is the Father of eternity for His people.

The name “Father of eternity” indicates that, as a loving father provides for His children, so Jesus loves us and has provided for us by giving us everlasting life.

Isaiah 9:6—Why is Jesus called “the everlasting Father” if He is the Son of God?

Is there a Bible contradiction in Isaiah 9:6? Here’s the solution from When Critics Ask by Geisler and Howe; used by permission.

defendinginerrancy.com

God Himself called His Son "God". Hebrews 1:8 and 9.

Well if the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God and there is a Trinity then the Son would be God... but the three are not
one single unit....

Maybe I can explain this way...

have you ever watched a long standing show on TV where they have a certain character that is with the show from episode 1 to the end, over many many years.

Have you ever seen the actor playing that certain character be changed, sometime 2 or 3 times?

the one that is coming to mind you may be too young to know or maybe never watched but it was a nighttime soap
called Dallas, from 1978 to 1990 The matriarch of the family was Misss Ellie Ewing.... I

It started out with Barbara Bel Geddes playing the role(1978–1984, 1985–1990), then
then Donna Reed came to play her very briefly , (1984–1985), and also
Molly Hagan (1986)

If you were watching an interview with any of these you rightfully could say "Oh, Miss Ellie."

Then seeing another of the three on a different show you rightfully could say "Ah, there's Miss Ellie

Finally moths later you see the last one doing a commercial for something and you can say "I saw Miss Ellie
talking about whatever today.

Why... Because all 3 women were individuals yet all three women were Miss Ellie.

If you want a sports analogy think of Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelce and JuJu Smith-Schuster
and you were watching a presentation of several pro-ball players from other teams and you hear the announcer say and identify which team each belonged and you hear....There is Patrick Mahomes Kansas City Chief. Arron Rodgers current quarterback Pittsburgh Steeler, Travis Kelce Kansas City Chief, JuJu Smith-Shuster Kansas City Chief, Andre Szmyt Clevland Brown

Noting that the singular name for each team is because each player is identified by them selves... but then you count three names for the Kansas City Chiefs and Patrick is a Chief, Kelce is a Chief and JuJu is a Chief.

3separate people are identified as being a Chief. That does not mean that all three of these men are on in the same, but the name/title covers all three individuals.

And if this does not make it for you back to the beginning

I believe that the best way to talk about the Trinity is to simply say that God is one God, who eternally exists in three Persons. These three Persons are all equally God and all equally Persons. Yet there is only one God.

So the author of Hebrews also believed the Son was also God the Father.

 

[Runningman]

I often check the verses. they never say what you pretend they say.
Do you know Christian who says there are multiple gods?

Sounds like you're in denial then. You can't see the Father is over all in the this verse?

Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[Runningman]

That does not erase the phrase one lord from this verse

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB95) — 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Maybe you should reconsider the trinity, which forms one Lord, one God.

John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We've already established that 1 Corinthians 8:6 says One God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. You show awareness that the one Lord in that verse is Jesus, so I know you also understand that the one God in that verse is the Father.

As I said, in that context, Paul is referring to there being one Lord of the church.

However, there isn't only one Lord in the broader context of things.

So, again, which Lord is this below?

Acts 3
20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

 

[civic]

Non-denomination is an oxymoron in trinitarianism because you're attempting to identify with Christianity, but you contradict Christianity. You're in a cult. Tough pill to swallow at first, but it's true. No better way than to just give it to you straight.

Do you believe the Bible is Scripture and that Scripture explains who God is, just as it says of what Jesus did in John 1:18?

Projecting since trinitarianism long precedes Unitarianism in church history. So it’s actually your beliefs that are heterodox or as you put it , a “cult “ group. Yours pretty much line up with the JW’s on the nature of God which is rejected by Jesus and the Apostles.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Sounds like you're in denial then. You can't see the Father is over all in the this verse?

Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

And Christ is in all and through Him the works was made. In Him all things exist, In Him is the source and fountain of life, the one in whom eternal life is found and He gives eternal life.

No man can give eternal life, no man has life in Himself, no man is before all things or in any man do all things exist . No man holds all things together by His power.

Next fallacy

 

[TomL]

We've already established that 1 Corinthians 8:6 says One God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. You show awareness that the one Lord in that verse is Jesus, so I know you also understand that the one God in that verse is the Father.

As I said, in that context, Paul is referring to there being one Lord of the church.

However, there isn't only one Lord in the broader context of things.

So, again, which Lord is this below?

Acts 3
20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

And we also saw multiple verses where Jesus is called God

And lord is more involved than just the church.

Philippians 2:9–11 (NASB 95) — 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 17:14 (NASB 95) — 14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Revelation 19:16 (NASB 95) — 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Hebrews 1:8–12 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

 

[Runningman]

Projecting since trinitarianism long precedes Unitarianism in church history. So it’s actually your beliefs that are heterodox or as you put it , a “cult “ group. Yours pretty much line up with the JW’s on the nature of God which is rejected by Jesus and the Apostles.

hope this helps !!!

Unitarianism has been around for thousands of years. Jews are Unitarian. There didn't suddenly arise a trinitarian god. Trinitarianism itself is a heresy that arose later after Jesus and wasn't formalized until the 4th century. There was no general consensus in the trinitarian organization that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 2nd and 3rd persons in a trinity until councils in the 4th century. So church history and Scripture easily debunks that point. You all don't really have any aces up your sleeves. Did you notice that?

 

[civic]

Unitarianism has been around for thousands of years. Jews are Unitarian. There didn't suddenly arise a trinitarian god. Trinitarianism itself is a heresy that arose later after Jesus and wasn't formalized until the 4th century. There was no general consensus in the trinitarian organization that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 2nd and 3rd persons in a trinity until councils in the 4th century. So church history and Scripture easily debunks that point. You all don't really have any aces up your sleeves. Did you notice that?

nope the Jews were not unitarians, Jesus and the Apostles were trinitarians.

 

[Runningman]

And Christ is in all and through Him the works was made. In Him all things exist, In Him is the source and fountain of life, the one in whom eternal life is found and He gives eternal life.

No man can give eternal life, no man has life in Himself, no man is before all things or in any man do all things exist . No man holds all things together by His power.

Next fallacy

John 17:2 says Jesus was granted authority to give eternal life by the Father. John 5:26 says Jesus was granted to have life in himself by the Father.

Do you understand that the Bible says Jesus is a man who was given things he didn't previously have?

 

[Runningman]

And we also saw multiple verses where Jesus is called God

And lord is more involved than just the church.

Philippians 2:9–11 (NASB 95) — 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I also quote this passage. Did you see who God is? Not Jesus.

Revelation 17:14 (NASB 95) — 14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Revelation 19:16 (NASB 95) — 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Those don't imply or infer that Jesus is God. Titles aren't sufficient to help your point since there are about a dozen titles that Jesus doesn't share with God.

King of kings can apply to humans.

Ezra 7
12Artaxerxes, king of kings.
To Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven:
Greetings.

Hebrews 1:8–12 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

That's quoted from Psalm 45 which proves that that the person in context is not God.

We've already established that 1 Corinthians 8:6 says One God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. You show awareness that the one Lord in that verse is Jesus, so I know you also understand that the one God in that verse is the Father.

As I said, in that context, Paul is referring to there being one Lord of the church.

However, there isn't only one Lord in the broader context of things.

So, again, which Lord is this below?

Acts 3
20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

 

[TomL]

Unitarianism has been around for thousands of years. Jews are Unitarian. There didn't suddenly arise a trinitarian god. Trinitarianism itself is a heresy that arose later after Jesus and wasn't formalized until the 4th century. There was no general consensus in the trinitarian organization that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 2nd and 3rd persons in a trinity until councils in the 4th century. So church history and Scripture easily debunks that point. You all don't really have any aces up your sleeves. Did you notice that?

Jews for the most part remain unsaved, failing to recognize Jesus

And if you do not recognize Jesus as eternal, the creator of all things, the lord of all, one with God, you also are lacking salvation.

 

[Runningman]

nope the Jews were not unitarians, Jesus and the Apostles were trinitarians.

Yes God is Unitarian and taught the Jews Unitarianism.

God is a singular person known as YHWH the Father.

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,
6so that all may know,
from where the sun rises to where it sets,
that there is none but Me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

 

[dwight92070]

Says who? You?

Oh, so you know of someone else who was conceived the way Jesus was?

Or to be more direct, " the Word was God" "And the Word became flesh" John 1:1 and verse 14 - SAYS THE BIBLE!

 

[TomL]

I also quote this passage. Did you see who God is? Not Jesus.

He is here

John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (NASB 95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Those don't imply or infer that Jesus is God. Titles aren't sufficient to help your point since there are about a dozen titles that Jesus doesn't share with God.

All the verses above state it

But let us recall you were supposedly addressing the verses that called Christ lord.

Revelation 17:14 (NASB 95) — 14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Revelation 19:16 (NASB 95) — 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

King of kings can apply to humans.

Ezra 7
12Artaxerxes, king of kings.
To Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven:
Greetings.

But not king/lord of all as is Christ in heaven, earth, and under the earth

Acts 10:36 (NASB 95) — 36 The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)—

Philippians 2:9–11 (NASB 95) — 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[TomL]

That's quoted from Psalm 45 which proves that that the person in context is not God.

Lets see

Hebrews 1:8–12 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

The Father says of the son Your throne oh God

You are denying the very words of God

And regarding Psa 45

Psalm 45:6–7 (NASB 95) — 6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

It also has God addressing another as God.

So, you are doubly wrong here.

 

[civic]

He is here

John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (NASB 95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.





All the verses above state it

But let us recall you were supposedly addressing the verses that called Christ lord.

Revelation 17:14 (NASB 95) — 14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Revelation 19:16 (NASB 95) — 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”



But not king/lord of all as is Christ in heaven, earth, and under the earth

Acts 10:36 (NASB 95) — 36 The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)—

Philippians 2:9–11 (NASB 95) — 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Amen