A Personal Reflection on the Trinity and Salvation

[mikesw]

Jesus is a human, but Scripture states God isn't also a human in Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, etc.

Also, your comments create a problem for the hypostatic union which makes Jesus out to be a kind of visible vessel for God rather than the invisible God Himself. That isn't a hypostatic union, or trinitarianism, that's modalism.

Ouch. You present another heresy in your argument of just saying the body was just some auxiliary vessel instead of Jesus being fully God and fully human. You must have memorized all the heresies in order to deny Christ.
It sort of is like Paul saying that the law leads people to sin because it tells them the action involved. So it seems you have learned heresies and made them the top ideas of your views of Jews.

Jesus is no longer invisible, but God is still invisible. Gotcha. You may not have realized what you just admitted to, but I'm sure you'll catch it soon.

You add more confusion all the time. As far as I know Jesus is now resurrected but is not being seen on earth. So he, effectively for the sake of argument, is invisible to us.

 

[Runningman]

Ouch. You present another heresy in your argument of just saying the body was just some auxiliary vessel instead of Jesus being fully God and fully human. You must have memorized all the heresies in order to deny Christ.
It sort of is like Paul saying that the law leads people to sin because it tells them the action involved. So it seems you have learned heresies and made them the top ideas of your views of Jews.

You add more confusion all the time. As far as I know Jesus is now resurrected but is not being seen on earth. So he, effectively for the sake of argument, is invisible to us.

Not my fault you're trying to argue that Jesus is visible and invisible at the same time. Does that actually work on some people you talk to? You haven't gained an inch with anything remotely convincing.

 

[civic]

Not my fault you're trying to argue that Jesus is visible and invisible at the same time. Does that actually work on some people you talk to? You haven't gained an inch with anything remotely convincing.

Can you see Jesus now ? No He is invisible to you

Can they see Jesus in heaven ? Yes He is visible to them

Next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

Can you see Jesus now ? No He is invisible to you

Can they see Jesus in heaven ? Yes He is visible to them

Next fallacy

Your argument seems to be along the lines of "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?" The answer is yes. You don't need to be looking at someone for them to be visible. I can't see you, but I am certain you are visible. It's a really flimsy argument to say Jesus is invisible just because he isn't physically standing here. And yes, I have seen Jesus before. I consider it a powerful confirmation of our faith that God would bless us with such a thing.

Have you ever asked God to see Jesus before or maybe you don't believe you can?

 

[civic]

Your argument seems to be along the lines of "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?" The answer is yes. You don't need to be looking at someone for them to be visible. I can't see you, but I am certain you are visible. It's a really flimsy argument to say Jesus is invisible just because he isn't physically standing here. And yes, I have seen Jesus before. I consider it a powerful confirmation of our faith that God would bless us with such a thing.

Have you ever asked God to see Jesus before or maybe you don't believe you can?

projecting. The fact is while Jesus was on earth He appeared and disappeared. Was visible and invisible.

 

[Scott]

I want people to see Jesus in me.

A perfect example is a buddy in my neighborhood. The first time I met him, he made it clear he would never go to church. An interesting statement since I hadn’t even talked to him about church—or anything religious! For the next five years, however, we had several spiritual conversations. From his reaction, I was certain I was having no impact on him whatsoever.

Then one Monday morning I was running late for work, but in God’s timing, I was right on time. As I came out of the house and hurried to my car, he walked up to me and said, “Hey, do you have a minute?” I was already late, but as he began to talk I could see that he was in a bad place. It was a time of crisis for him and he could have gone to anyone else, but for some reason he waited and came to me on that Monday morning. I decided to be even later for work, and we both headed to Starbucks. We sat for quite some time, him telling me his problems and me listening. And on that Monday morning, that guy who said he would never go to church accepted Christ right in Starbucks without one thought to the other customers sitting around us.

Every time I see him, I praise God. For five years I tried to make a difference and didn’t see any progress, but in one day, all that changed. My neighbor made a powerful statement that day in Starbucks that I hope gets etched on your heart. He said, “If only I would have done what you have been saying these past five years, I wouldn’t be in this mess.” Can you imagine how I would have felt if he had said, “I wish you would have told me this five years ago so I wouldn’t be in this mess”? I am glad I did my part.


For to me to live is Christ, and to die gain. 22And if to live in the flesh is to me a fruit of work, then what shall I choose? I know not; 23for I am pressed by the two, having the desire to depart, and to be with Christ, for it is far better, 24and to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account, 25and of this being persuaded, I have known that I shall remain and continue with you all, to your advancement and joy of the faith, 26that your boasting may abound in Christ Jesus in me through my presence again to you.
Philippians 1:21–26

 

[mikesw]

Not my fault you're trying to argue that Jesus is visible and invisible at the same time. Does that actually work on some people you talk to? You haven't gained an inch with anything remotely convincing.

Stop confirming to me that you do not understand Jesus whatsoever.

 

[Runningman]

Stop confirming to me that you do not understand Jesus whatsoever.

You know neither God nor Jesus. That's clear.

 

[civic]

You know neither God nor Jesus. That's clear.

Projecting

 

[Runningman]

Projecting

@mikesw

Isn't it true that you two deny the Father His exclusive deity as clearly stated in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6?

1 John 2
22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

 

[360watt]

@mikesw

Isn't it true that you two deny the Father His exclusive deity as clearly stated in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6?

1 John 2
22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

Waaaaay out of context with this verse, Runningman. Jesus and the Father here are equal. How about whoever denies the Son does not have the Father?

This passage does not help you.

 

[mikesw]

@mikesw

Isn't it true that you two deny the Father His exclusive deity as clearly stated in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6?

1 John 2
22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

we see that you read with confusion. John 17:3 talks about knowing the only true God. That does not deny verse 5 that shows Jesus is of that same God. Jesus is sharing that their earlier conception was not accurate about God nor an encounter with God as that they now have since Jesus is there. I cannot accept your view that would tend to make Jesus a demiurge or as one lying about his previous glory with the Father.

 

[Runningman]

Waaaaay out of context with this verse, Runningman. Jesus and the Father here are equal. How about whoever denies the Son does not have the Father?

This passage does not help you.

we see that you read with confusion. John 17:3 talks about knowing the only true God. That does not deny verse 5 that shows Jesus is of that same God. Jesus is sharing that their earlier conception was not accurate about God nor an encounter with God as that they now have since Jesus is there. I cannot accept your view that would tend to make Jesus a demiurge or as one lying about his previous glory with the Father.

As far as John 17:1-3 goes, Jesus prays to God and calls Him the only true God. If you deny that, then you deny the Father and don't know Jesus Christ, who the only true God sent. What's your workaround for 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:6, 1 John 5:20, and several other verses that identify the Father as the only God?

 

[mikesw]

As far as John 17:1-3 goes, Jesus prays to God and calls Him the only true God. If you deny that, then you deny the Father and don't know Jesus Christ, who the only true God sent. What's your workaround for 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:6, 1 John 5:20, and several other verses that identify the Father as the only God?

so you are countering the polytheist view that says there are multiple gods. You are not countering the orthodox recognition of Jesus as the same God and who had glory with the Father before his incarnation as implied in Joh 17:5. Again, your error is that you do not consider John 17:5 or Jesus existing before Abraham or any of the many other passages. How are we to take your arguments seriously when you cannot properly explain those pre-existence passages?

 

[civic]

@mikesw

Isn't it true that you two deny the Father His exclusive deity as clearly stated in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6?

1 John 2
22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

Nothing “ exclusive “ there at all. It’s just your biased pov.

 

[civic]

so you are countering the polytheist view that says there are multiple gods. You are not countering the orthodox recognition of Jesus as the same God and who had glory with the Father before his incarnation as implied in Joh 17:5. Again, your error is that you do not consider John 17:5 or Jesus existing before Abraham or any of the many other passages. How are we to take your arguments seriously when you cannot properly explain those pre-existence passages?

No different than us saying they are unicorns

 

[mikesw]

No different than us saying they are unicorns

Not sure how to respond to that. But unicorn does seem like a shorter way of saying unitarian.

 

[AaronH]

In Christian theology, Jesus is considered to be Jehovah (YHWH), the same God of the Old Testament, as supported by various biblical passages and the doctrine of the Trinity.

Understanding​

1. Biblical Basis: The Bible identifies Jesus as God in several passages. For instance, John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This establishes Jesus (the Word) as divine and equates Him with God.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=6120...pbi1hcnRpY2xlcy9qZXN1cy1pcy1qZWhvdmFoLw&ntb=1
2. The Name Jehovah: The name "Jehovah" (or YHWH) is used in the Old Testament to refer to God. In Exodus 3:14, God reveals Himself to Moses as "I AM," which is translated as Jehovah. Christian doctrine asserts that Jesus embodies this divine identity, as He is referred to as the "First and the Last" in Revelation 1:17, a title also attributed to Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=4152...pb25zLm9yZy9pcy1KZXN1cy1ZYWh3ZWguaHRtbA&ntb=1
3. The Doctrine of the Trinity: Traditional Christian belief holds that God exists as three persons in one essence: the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. This means that while Jesus is distinct as the Son, He is fully God and shares the same divine nature as Jehovah.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=e931...WdvZC1zYXZpb3IvamVzdXMtamVob3ZhaC15aHdo&ntb=1
4. Worship and Divinity: The New Testament records instances where Jesus is worshiped, which is significant because worship is due to God alone. For example, Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28, affirming His divine status.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=e931...WdvZC1zYXZpb3IvamVzdXMtamVob3ZhaC15aHdo&ntb=1
5. Theological Implications: The identification of Jesus as Jehovah has profound implications for Christian faith, emphasizing that Jesus is not merely a prophet or a created being but the eternal God who became incarnate for humanity's salvation.
   https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=4152...pb25zLm9yZy9pcy1KZXN1cy1ZYWh3ZWguaHRtbA&ntb=1

Conclusion​

In summary, Christian theology supports the view that Jesus is indeed Jehovah, based on scriptural evidence and the understanding of the Trinity. This belief is foundational to the Christian faith, affirming the divinity of Christ and His role in the salvation of humanity.

Three of those five points contained scriptures (the other two are human conjecture). None of those three would a person of average intelligence and without preconception take to mean that Jesus is God, much less the trinity.

The father is clearly and undeniably said to be God many times. I wonder why the bible isn't anywhere near as clear about the son being God? I mean, God could have made it just as clear very easily. Perhaps because that's not what the Bible's trying to communicate, because it isn't true. That seems to be the most obvious reason.

 

[AaronH]

Not quite true

John 20:28–29 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

Let's grant that Thomas is calling Jesus God here (I don't think he clearly is). That's after God raised Jesus up. So for the vast majority of Jesus ministry there's no evidence they believed he was God. Seems strange, why hide it. And were the disciples saved during those 3+ years?

 

[Runningman]

Nothing “ exclusive “ there at all. It’s just your biased pov.

Only means sole, singular, so yeah it refers to exclusivity quite easily. When someone is the only one of something then they're the sole individual. Hence the Father is the exclusive true God.

What's your workaround for 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:6?