Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
However, that's only the "LUST" issue. there's NO SIN until you allow the LUST to "Conceive", and give birth to Adulterous ACTIONS.
Your views on human beings having a sin nature
- Thread starter Obadiah
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Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Adam (and eve) was CREATED BY GOD with it. It never changed.
True - animals reproduce "After their kind". Adam was created with a HUMAN NATURE, and our is just like that. Jesus had the SAME "Human nature", but even though He was TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, Jesus never allowed HIS LUST to "conceive", and consequently remained SINLESS.
"Innocent" is the term I prefer.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Nope, the "Serpent" (the enticement) is still external, and there's NOTHING CORRUPT about our "DNA". Jesus (with the SAME HUMAN NATURE WE HAVE) was Tempted IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, but never allowed HIS LUST to "Conceive".
Diserner
Well-known member
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Nope - it's when you "Get it on" with your neighbor's wife that sin happens.
Riddle me this: Since Jesus was SINLESS, and since Jesus was TEMPTED IN EVERY WAY AS WE ARE, how can TEMPTATION be SIN???
civic
Well-known member
So let me ask you this, porn is ok because you are not committing a sin against anyone ?
See if your wife agrees
Diserner
Well-known member
Yes, but committing the adultery in the heart is more than temptation, brother.
The Bible clearly says out of the heart flow the issues of man and sin comes from the heart.
You don't need to commit any external act to commit the sin of pride, for example.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Reminds me of the story of the deacon who was awarded a medal for his humility, and then got it taken away because he wore it.
Of course if you have a problem with PRIDE, it'll manifest externally before too long.
Well yes as the topic was adultery in Matthew but as I pointed out in James, sin is born out of our desires that ignore God's word. Whether the motivation is lust, greed, pride, jealousy, etc. makes no difference, it will result in sin in all it's various forms.
Our DNA is corrupted because as Romans 7 puts it there is another law at work in our flesh, a law not put there by God. It is why we get sick or are born with deformities/abnormalities and ultimately die. Jesus had the same human nature because our "nature" (ie. that which makes us human) is to be found in our soul not our body, yet He was with out sin. This is a reference to the sin nature found in our flesh not simply that He never committed any sin (He didn't commit any sins either just so we are clear on that). This sin nature is passed on down through Adam ie. the male line. It is why Jesus had no human father.
Jesus never lusted after anything. I think you are confusing desire with lust. Desire, in and of itself is not wrong. Indeed, God promises to give us the desires of our hearts if we delight in Him. Desire is not corrupted until it draws us away from God's truth. Christ was never drawn away from the truth, indeed he is the truth.
Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself also in the Lord, And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
Our flesh does act like a serpent in the garden which, is not to say all temptation comes from within. It is said to be against the Spirit (Gal.5:17) because the flesh doesn't think, it simply reacts to circumstance/environment and seeks to preserve itself in that reaction. This is the temptation and so, without God's truth to guide us and the power of the Spirit (grace) to overcome, we are led into self-preservation, self-indulgence, self-serving thoughts which lead to sinful actions.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
That's what James says. when you allow your LUST to "Conceive" the there will be a "Birth" of sinful action.
Then how was Jesus TEMPTED in EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE???
The terms are synonymous, so no confusion.
Diserner
Well-known member
You're simply misinterpreting what the verse means.
Jesus was never tempted with believing God did not forgive his sins, because Jesus never sinned.
There are things females face that he just did not have to face.
Get a new understanding of this verse, it doesn't mean what you are insisting.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
According to YOUR "Paradigm".
ALL God's Chilluns gots "Paradigms". I'll stick with mine, and you can enjoy yours.
It says when you allow your desire to draw you away and are enticed. That is not simply facing temptation but succumbing to the temptation. After you have now given in to it, it becomes conceived ie. this is now the plan to respond in accordance with whatever the temptation has offered and that is what results in the sin. Facing temptation is not a sin, nor does it produce sin. This is why I said sin begins with what you think. Christ thought with the truth of the word when tempted. We, on the other hand, tend to think with what's best for us. This is why we must be transformed in our thinking and learn to think as Christ thought ie. with the truth. When we do that, we sin less.
James 1:14&15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Not sure I understand your question re Jesus being tempted. He was tempted as we are. The fact all His temptations came from the outside doesn't alter the nature of temptation, just the source.
Within the context of how we use the words desire and lust today, one does not consider desiring to eat breakfast because you are hungry a form of lust. If you wish to use the terms synonymously that's fine with me but most people will see the word lust and think of intense, uncontrollable desire. If we remember that Christ's intense, uncontrollable desire was to do the will of the One who sent Him? I can live with Christ "lusting after the will of God".
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
There is only ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Having said that, the creation of man from created matter rendered him sinful, or as the Greek word is defined by Strong's [harmatia] is "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" missed"?
The glory of God (or the glory that is God.)
The word is translated in English by the KJV translators as "sin."
God created the first man and the first woman sin-ful ["missing the mark."]
And they sinned because they were sinners. They are not sinners because they sinned.
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.
If this was written in David's time (1000 BC) I wonder from that time how 'ancient' this proverb is? Word of mouth from Adam and Eve? Maybe part of oral tradition or storyline? At any rate it doesn't diminish its meaning. Sin comes from sinners.
Now, the theology that Adam was "innocent"? Only in the sense that as there was no Law or Command in the Garden until God placed restriction upon them to not eat from the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil there was no sin:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.
I find no distinction between the Law(s) of God and His Command(s.)
The Law(s) of God are His Commands and the Commands of God are Law.
Paul says:
For without the law sin was dead. Rom. 7:8.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7. (cf. Gen. 2:17.)
God used the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil to give Adam and the woman the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness. For without the Law/Command "thou shalt not eat of it" sin was dead in the sense they had not the knowledge of their sinfulness. But once the Law/Command came..."but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Rom. 7:9.
Because they were not created eternal (eternalness is a glory of God) they would have died even if there was no Command and they had not sinned. Sin is death, and death is sin.
Paul says:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.
I find this applicable in same fashion if these words would have come from Adam. It would sound like this:
Adam: "I had not known disobedience except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]
Now the theology Adam was created holy, or righteous, or sinless. All these are the nature/attributes of God and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
IF Adam was created holy, or righteous, or sinless, he would by necessity must needs possess all the Nature and Attributes of Deity (God) or he would fall short of God's glory, for there is only ONE Person who can stand blameless before a Holy God and that Person is the Holy Son.
God created the man and woman sinful, or as the word "sin" is defined: "missing the mark" [of the glory of God.]
There is NONE like Him.
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Having said that, the creation of man from created matter rendered him sinful, or as the Greek word is defined by Strong's [harmatia] is "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" missed"?
The glory of God (or the glory that is God.)
The word is translated in English by the KJV translators as "sin."
God created the first man and the first woman sin-ful ["missing the mark."]
And they sinned because they were sinners. They are not sinners because they sinned.
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.
If this was written in David's time (1000 BC) I wonder from that time how 'ancient' this proverb is? Word of mouth from Adam and Eve? Maybe part of oral tradition or storyline? At any rate it doesn't diminish its meaning. Sin comes from sinners.
Now, the theology that Adam was "innocent"? Only in the sense that as there was no Law or Command in the Garden until God placed restriction upon them to not eat from the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil there was no sin:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.
I find no distinction between the Law(s) of God and His Command(s.)
The Law(s) of God are His Commands and the Commands of God are Law.
Paul says:
For without the law sin was dead. Rom. 7:8.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7. (cf. Gen. 2:17.)
God used the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil to give Adam and the woman the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness. For without the Law/Command "thou shalt not eat of it" sin was dead in the sense they had not the knowledge of their sinfulness. But once the Law/Command came..."but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Rom. 7:9.
Because they were not created eternal (eternalness is a glory of God) they would have died even if there was no Command and they had not sinned. Sin is death, and death is sin.
Paul says:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.
I find this applicable in same fashion if these words would have come from Adam. It would sound like this:
Adam: "I had not known disobedience except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]
Now the theology Adam was created holy, or righteous, or sinless. All these are the nature/attributes of God and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
IF Adam was created holy, or righteous, or sinless, he would by necessity must needs possess all the Nature and Attributes of Deity (God) or he would fall short of God's glory, for there is only ONE Person who can stand blameless before a Holy God and that Person is the Holy Son.
God created the man and woman sinful, or as the word "sin" is defined: "missing the mark" [of the glory of God.]
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Seems I've already said that 1000 times right here.
SO then Jesus was not tempted: AS WE ARE, if the temptation didn't start with HIS OWN HUMAN LUST (strong personal desire).
e v e
Well-known member
that satan tempted him, does not meant Christ was tempted... satan's nature and Christ's are not the same...
there is no need for Christ to be tempted as in lusting for satanic things (this world).
Being Human in the sense of God's creation before the fall in the body made by God
is Not
the same context of humanoid ape
on this earth in the fleshbody
which is not made by God
there is no need for Christ to be tempted as in lusting for satanic things (this world).
Being Human in the sense of God's creation before the fall in the body made by God
is Not
the same context of humanoid ape
on this earth in the fleshbody
which is not made by God
Last edited:
e v e
Well-known member
human beings on this earth
are in ape bodies = sin = flesh
the flesh wars God
and imprisons and oppresses the soul
that is what adam did to us
God's souls will be restored to the body made by God at the Change
which many call rapture.
and then finally we will be Saved from
this horrible clown show
that adam and his esau henchmen made
are in ape bodies = sin = flesh
the flesh wars God
and imprisons and oppresses the soul
that is what adam did to us
God's souls will be restored to the body made by God at the Change
which many call rapture.
and then finally we will be Saved from
this horrible clown show
that adam and his esau henchmen made
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