we can forgive you for misunderstanding scripture. We'll try to get you on track.
You shall worship the Lord you God only.
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Micaiah
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Read the Holy Bible more frequently:
“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (1 Timothy 4:16, KJV)
Get to it.
I will continue to read it and share truth with people. thanks. I can help teach you too.
Micaiah
Active member
First:
Get rid of all of the extra biblical leaven and you will be back on track.
Baby steps again…
done. Now you repent and acknowledge the deity of Christ to which scriptures gives abundant testimony.
Richard
Active member
If you are trying to understand the theophonic appearances of God in the O.T, in light of John 1:18, you need to understand the meaning of the word John uses.
In verse 18, John says,
If John is arguing from the first definition, this needs to be understood in the light of pragmatic Old Testament examples. We know from the many examples of theophonic manifestations in the Old Testament that God has repeatedly presented himself to man in a number of ways. At times, God availed himself only to man’s auditory senses. He spoke to Adam, to Cain, to Noah, to the Hebrew patriarchs, to Moses, to the prophets, and to others. Sometimes he visited himself upon man in the form of dreams or visions as to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah chapter six. Other times, he appears as objects such as the cloud or the pillar of fire that went before Israel in the wilderness. Still, there are other times when he visited man in human form. There are some eight accounts of this type of theophany found in the Old Testament.
The second word is “ἑώρακεν”. If “ἑώρακεν” is to be understood as an intellectual limitation, this would seem to fit better with the closing statement of this prologue. “He has explained him.” The Greek word “ἐξηγήσατο” means to set forth in detail, to set forth in language, to make known or to reveal (George V. Wagram’s Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 1983). This is the etymology of our word ‘exegete’. In other words,
hermeneutics stackexchange
In verse 18, John says,
There are two words that need to be addressed in this statement by John. The first is the word “ἑώρακεν” that is translated here as "seen" in most of the English translations. The word is third person singular of “ὁράω” which, according to Thayer, has three basic definitions. First, it means to see with the eyes. Secondly, it means to see with the mind, to know, to perceive. Thirdly, it means to become acquainted with through pragmatic experience (The 1981 New Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon, p 451).
If John is arguing from the first definition, this needs to be understood in the light of pragmatic Old Testament examples. We know from the many examples of theophonic manifestations in the Old Testament that God has repeatedly presented himself to man in a number of ways. At times, God availed himself only to man’s auditory senses. He spoke to Adam, to Cain, to Noah, to the Hebrew patriarchs, to Moses, to the prophets, and to others. Sometimes he visited himself upon man in the form of dreams or visions as to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah chapter six. Other times, he appears as objects such as the cloud or the pillar of fire that went before Israel in the wilderness. Still, there are other times when he visited man in human form. There are some eight accounts of this type of theophany found in the Old Testament.
The second word is “ἑώρακεν”. If “ἑώρακεν” is to be understood as an intellectual limitation, this would seem to fit better with the closing statement of this prologue. “He has explained him.” The Greek word “ἐξηγήσατο” means to set forth in detail, to set forth in language, to make known or to reveal (George V. Wagram’s Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 1983). This is the etymology of our word ‘exegete’. In other words,
The Logos presents God to the mind of man through the medium of human language in such a way that man is now able to understand something of the nature and character of God that he could never know from his observation of the natural world. Only the one who came out of the very presence of God could have done this.
hermeneutics stackexchange
Micaiah
Active member
Christ definitely has a divine nature:
“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” (2 Peter 1:4, KJV)
What exactly that means will be clear when we finally see him in that day.
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Corinthians 13:12, KJV)
Certainly we shall be in the Son of God who is of the Godhead. It shall be interesting to eventually find what that entails.
Also, can you find a single verse that says, "Jesus is not God?"
Jesus is my Lord and Savior, sent to me from His God and my God, the Father of all, and to this day HE advocates between His God and Father, and me. When HE walked the earth, He was a man, tempted in all ways as other men, but HE didn't give in to the Temptation and sin. There are those who imply that this was no big deal for Him, because they preach that HE wasn't a man, but God, who just looked like a man. And so when HE was tempted, HE just kicked in some God power no other human has ever had access to, and in this way HE overcame. And that since HE was His own God, raised Himself from the death, and then gave Himself all the Glory and power for simply "being God". "Take Heed" of these "Many" my friend, not to be deceived by their seductive traditions and philosophies. Study for yourself in obedience/faith.
I advocate that men believe and follow the commands and instructions of this Lord's Christ "of the Bible", as dictated in the Holy Scriptures. Including, but not limited to, the many warnings about religious men of this world God placed us in, "who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "come in His Name", who "cast out demons in His Name", but have rejected much of the commandments, judgments and Words of God that the Jesus "of the bible" told us to "live by".
The following is just a few Inspired Scriptures, some of which as spoken by Jesus Himself, that tells men about His Father, who HE calls, "The One True God". As you will see, Jesus knew the difference between Himself, and His Father who HE said was greater than HE.
Clearly Jesus was not His own God, contrary to this world's "many" who call Him Lord, Lord.
You asked for verses that said Jesus wasn't God.
Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou "me" good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14: 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto "the Father": for "my Father" is greater than I.
Psalms 45: 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "the sceptre" of thy kingdom (Jesus) is a right sceptre. 7 Thou (The Scepter of God's Kingdom, Jesus) lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, "thy" ((The Scepter of God's Kingdom, Jesus') God, hath anointed thee (Jesus) with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (All other men born of a woman)
1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have "an advocate" with "the Father", "Jesus Christ" the righteous: (The Sceptor of His Father's Kingdom)
1. Jesus as man - many and us held that belief maybe before your church existed.
2. One God - many and us held that belief maybe before the existence of your church.
3. What you have to prove here is just a single verse that says, "Jesus is not God." And I did not see the exact words from your quoted verses.
My church existed before Abraham.
Thanks for the spirit filled reply and examination of the Scriptures I posted at your request.
So, Judaism is your faith. And we are also a branch of the Abrahamic faith.
Then, can you provide the exact wordings that says “Jesus is not God?”
Because the Updated ASV+ render
John 1:18, No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7 who is in the bosom of the Father, N8 that one has made him fully known.
And the note N7 there states that the oldest manuscripts papyrus 66 and papyrus 75 supported it as the original wordings. See below;
N7 John 1:18 (UASV+)
The original words were μονογενὴς θεός or ο μονογενης θεος “only-begotten God” or “the only-begotten God” (P66 P75 א B C* L 33 syrhmp 33 copbo) A variant reading is ο μονογενης υιος “the only begotten Son” A C3 (Ws) Θ Ψ f1, Maj syrc).
Perhaps you have simply misplaced or mistakenly omitted a question mark, and you are not judging me as it appears, rather, you are asking the question, "So, Judaism is your faith?"
In either case, I would remind you of what I actually said, "My church existed before Abraham". And would ask that you would offer the simplest and most basic courtesy by answering a couple of questions necessary to respond to your judgment, or your question, whichever it was.
In your religion, what is "Judaism"?
Is it "Yielding oneself" to God and our bodies as instruments of righteousness unto God, as Noah, Abraham, Jesus and the Apostles did?
Or is it, as the Jesus "of the bible" proclaims, "Full well rejecting the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition"? In other words, was Jesus a Judaizer, or were the mainstream religious sects of His Time, the Pharisees, the Judaizer?
Is it being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish the righteousness of men, refusing to submit themselves unto the righteousness of God?
Or is it denying ourself, and "Living By" Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God?
For some reason the promoters of this world's religious system, in all of it's differing religious sects and philosophies, refuse to honestly engage in any honest way regarding their definition of this word "Judaism" that they wield like a sword. How could a man reply to your question or judgment, whichever it is, unless he understands the definition of the word you are using?
I look forward in hope of your honest engagement.
Again, the Church I belong to existed "before Abraham", as I clearly stated. Abraham was also a member of God's Church, was he not? As was Noah, and Abel who both existed "before" Abraham. I can find no evidence that Abraham created his own "branch" or religious sect. In fact, here is what is actually written in the holy Scriptures.
Gen. 18: 17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I (God) know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
It's the "Way of the Lord" that Abraham walked in. Not the "way of Abraham" that became a religious sect or "branch". Noah walked in the same "way". So did Moses and Caleb and Joshua and Shadrack, and David and Zacharias and Simeon and Anna and Matthew, and Paul and Cornelius and every example of faithful men who adopted God's church over this world's religious system. A religious system Eve adopted by "Yielding herself a servant to obey" the "other voice" in the world God placed her in.
Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, (God's Church) and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor. 11: 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
I don't believe Jesus was His own God based on the actual Word's HE spoke.
Just because the religious sects of this world doesn't believe these Words inspired by God, doesn't make them any less truthful, in my view. Especially since Jesus warned several times to "Take heed" specifically of men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but refuse to be a "Doer" of His Sayings.
It is fascinating to me really, having separated myself from this world's religious system for nearly 30 years now, how religious men have been convinced that AI, or modern translations, or learning other languages can teach us things about Jesus that even HE, His Father, nor the Prophets His Father Sent, ever knew.
And the practice of taking one sentence, and using it to destroy or make void volumes of other Scriptures, is a popular practice no doubt, and used to justify differing religious philosophies of "every" religious sect of this world, "who come in Christ's Name". Catholics, Bereans, Calvinists, JW's, Baptists, Mormons, Methodists and on and on and on. Even the serpent in the garden used "some" of God's Word to deceive Eve.
But who did Jesus Himself say HE was, according to the same John?
John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom "the Father hath sanctified", "and sent" into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am "the Son of God"?
And who did God Himself, that no man but Christ has ever seen, tell us who Jesus was.
Matt. 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw "the Spirit of God" descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is "my beloved Son", "in whom" I am well pleased.
And who did the Author of Hebrews say Jesus was.
Heb. 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself "to be made an high priest"; but he that said unto him, "Thou art my Son", to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days "of his flesh", when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto "him" that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though "he were a Son", yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being "made perfect", he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
And what were Jesus' Last Words according to Luke, that HE spoke before HE died?
Luke 23: 34 Then said Jesus, "Father", forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
I could go on, and would be glad to if you would like. But all these verses and many more tells us clearly that "Jesus is not God", rather, HE is the Son of God, sent by God to reconcile us to Him, and is advocating on my behalf between His Father and me to this day.
Why would I believe in or promote another Jesus?
I will not make my reply long enough, if I understand it right from this forum guidelines we are allowed to post a quite number of words.
I noticed you quotes New Testament verses, where majority of Jews did not accept Jesus yet, but somehow I believe will. (Rom 11:25-27.
This is what I understand about "Judaism, is a monotheistic, Abrahamic religion and the oldest of the Abrahamic faiths, alongside Christianity and Islam. It is the religion of the Jewish people and is centered around the belief in one God and the teachings of the Hebrew Bible (also known as the Tanakh)."https://www.google.com/search?q=jus...0i10i512l5.1744j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
You quote John 10:36, of which Jesus said He is the "Son of God". I believe there is a deep meaning of that.
Jesus as the "Son of man" as His mother is human Mary, is He man or not?
Jesus as the "Son of God" as His Father is God, is He God or not? Why the honest and logical answer of the above question cannot be applied to this question? May I know some explanation?
FYI, there is no forum guidelines as to how long a post can be. There is a limit as to how many characters one can type on a given post though, and a pop up will appear when this limit is reached, I believe it is 10,000 characters. (letters, punctuation, etc.) A man can then continue in another post to express or share his reply. This happens all the time on this forum.
It's a great study platform to share and/or discern the difference between what is actually written, and the deceptions Jesus warned about. Personally I like posts where men share their understanding of Scriptures in search of their true meaning. Not so much when they just copy and paste internet sermons.
This is a great truth to understand in my view, and thanks for sharing it. The OT is completely filled with examples of "Jews" outwardly, who didn't believe in the Gospel of Christ that was shown unto them. From the very beginning there have been voices in the world God placed us in, that will work to convince us Gods Word cannot be trusted, and if we listen to them, we will be convinced, as the scriptures clearly show. There are examples of this all over the Bible since Adam and Eve. Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego, Daniel, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the bible is full of examples of people who were "Jews inwardly". Like Noah, Abraham, Zacharias and Elizabeth, these folks knew of, believed on and waited for the Lord's Christ long before HE was even born, when most of the men around them had adopted the philosophies of the "other voice" in the garden God placed them in.
But my question to you, is who adopted "Judaism" in the Bible, in the context you used it when you labeled me as a man practicing Judaism?
Can you not see how important this question is?
I was hoping for more than a copy and paste from Google.
That's OK if you don't know or are uncomfortable discussing it. But I would like to point out some foolishness in the Godless Google.
Abraham didn't create a religion. There is no "Abrahamic religion" spoken of, written about, or otherwise promoted in the Entire Inspired Word of God, including the New Testament, that wasn't even published until centuries after the members of the Body of Christ in Acts had all died and were buried. You cannot find any teaching that speaks to an "Abrahamic religion". If you think you can please do so. But if you can't, please confess so others might by warned of the same deception.
According to what is actually written in Scriptures, Abraham "Yielded himself" a servant to obey God, like Noah, Caleb, Zacharias, Simeon, Peter, James, Paul, Shadrack, Daniel and EVERY example of Faith in the entire Holy Scriptures did, including the Author and Finisher of my Faith, the Jesus "of the bible".
I know this because the Word of God, that became Flesh, Told me. And I believe in Him.
Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed "my" voice, and kept "my" charge, "my" commandments, "my" statutes, and "my" laws.
Paul called the Law and Prophets, the only scriptures which existed in his Time, "The Holy Scriptures" that are Inspired by God. You promote a voice that teaches they are the "Hebrew Bible". Are they not the Inspired Word of God that HE gave to the Hebrew People?
My friend, be careful who you receive your instruction from.
https://www.google.com/search?q=jus...0i10i512l5.1744j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
There are "many" voices, in this world God placed me in, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but do not believe or profess that the Christ, the Rock of Israel, became a mortal, Flesh and Blood human being, at the behest of His Father. They promote the religious philosophy that the Christ came to earth as immortal God. That HE risked nothing for no one. That when the going got tough, as it does for all humans, Jesus just kicked in some God Power no other human has ever had access to, and in this way HE overcame Sin and temptation on earth. After all, God can not Sin, God can not die. God can't even be tempted. So in this popular religious philosophy, promoted by this world's religious system, Jesus' whole life is a scam. He couldn't Sin because HE was God. So what did HE overcome? He couldn't be Tempted because HE was God? So the Bible lied about Him being tempted in all ways as His Brethren. But who are His Brethren? How many "Gods" are there that His Father would give Him a name greater than all other Gods? He couldn't die, so what was the whole "Crucify" thing about? And therefore wasn't "Raised from the dead", because HE couldn't die in the first place. God cannot die.
So what was the Glory that God gave to God? What is so special about God not sinning?
This philosophy makes a mockery of Jesus' entire Life. It demeans His Sacrifice in a way that gives me goose bumps to even think about it. And it is promoted by "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".
We have all been deceived by this spirit. And like Abraham and Israel and Nicodemus and Paul, we need to repent and turn to God, and "come out of her" this world's religious system of hundreds of different religions all competing with each other for contributing members. AKA "Babylon"
A religious system that rejects and despises God's Judgments and definitions of Good, Clean, Holy, and true, and creates their own judgments and establishes their own Righteousness. A religious system that rejects God's Statutes and Sabbaths, and creates their own sabbaths and high days that the merchants of the earth are made extremely wealthy promoting. While the Feasts of the Lord are relegated by them as worthless Jewish Traditions. A religious system that creates images of the sacrifice God provided for them and they say to the world, "This is the god that brought us out of the bondage of sin", as they point to an image of God after the likeness of some random very handsome long haired man, in the same exact way Israel pointed to the image they created of a sacrifice God provided for them.
This was all prophesied in the Exodus.
I must trust God's Inspired Word over this world's religious sects. According to God's Inspired word, Jesus is God's High Priest. Jesus was Sent by God to be my Lord and Savior. Jesus was sent By God to "show me in the way that I should go". Jesus is my Advocate between His God, the One True God according to HIS Own Words, and me. According to the Word of God, Jesus is at His Father's Kingdom preparing a place for me.
Jesus said there is One True God, and it was HIS Father, who Glorified Him. HE didn't Glorify Himself.
Remember, you are promoting the philosophies of a religion that Transgresses God's commandments that they might promote their own traditions. In the quite times of your mind, look into the Law of Liberty, and you will see that this is true. That's the easy part. It's "doing" something about that "costs" you. And Jesus said to count the cost.
We are all born into a world, placed here by God, in which "other voices" exist. And both you and I are taught by them to cherry-pick through the Word of God and only dwell on Scriptures that can be used to justify the philosophies of our adopted religion. Catholics have their list of acceptable and unacceptable Scriptures. Bereans have their list. Calvinists have their list. JW's have their list. The Pharisees had their list of verses to reject, and a list of verses to accept. And as it turns out, the serpent in the garden also had a list of God's Words that it used, and a list of God's Words that it omitted.
This is an honest, undeniable Truth that is ugly to be sure. But undeniably true just the same.
The Bible itself, the Inspired Word of God, promotes a different philosophy. It teaches that men shall "Live by" EVERY Word of God, and not the course of this world that is and has always been "Partial in the Law".
I don't know if you can accept this or not. Jesus said the Straight Path is narrow, and few will enter. But I hope you might consider, not my words, but Every Word God placed in His Christ's Mouth, His Prophets mouth, the disciples HE gave to Jesus' mouth. and trust the Holy scriptures, like Paul taught, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".
These discussions are good to have, in my view.
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