Would you believe? (Get Smart)

[The Rogue Tomato]

Work with me here. This will connect to the topic of this forum section, I promise. Please answer the questions.

Practical:

1. Do you believe butter and eggs and red meat lead to clogged arteries and heart disease?
2. Did you ever believe butter, eggs, red meat, etc., lead to clogged arteries and heart disease?
3. Do you/did you ever believe that margarine is/was the healthy alternative to butter?
4. If your view changed, why did it change?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Apparently nobody is going to answer this because you know that if you answered "I chose to believe [X] of my own free will", it would be so flagrantly silly.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Work with me here. This will connect to the topic of this forum section, I promise. Please answer the questions.

Practical:

1. Do you believe butter and eggs and red meat lead to clogged arteries and heart disease?
2. Did you ever believe butter, eggs, red meat, etc., lead to clogged arteries and heart disease?
3. Do you/did you ever believe that margarine is/was the healthy alternative to butter?
4. If your view changed, why did it change?

1. No.
2. No.
3. Maybe at one time when I was very young.
4. The fact that men "claim to know" things that have no real evidence the contrary and the every changing "reason" for "clogged arteries".

I tend to believe it is all about refined sugar damaging the walls of arteries and causing "plaque/etc" to attached to a less than smooth interior of the "plumbing".

I have some experience with this. I have a full occluded subclavian vein in the left arm. I went through a several hour procedure to try and remove the clot. I have TOS. The reason it would remain open was because of vein scarring.

Can I demand you provide answers to my questions?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1. No.
2. No.
3. Maybe at one time when I was very young.
4. The fact that men "claim to know" things that have no real evidence the contrary and the every changing "reason" for "clogged arteries".

I tend to believe it is all about refined sugar damaging the walls of arteries and causing "plaque/etc" to attached to a less than smooth interior of the "plumbing".

I have some experience with this. I have a full occluded subclavian vein in the left arm. I went through a several hour procedure to try and remove the clot. I have TOS. The reason it would remain open was because of vein scarring.

Can I demand you provide answers to my questions?

My point is that belief is not a free will choice. If your doctor tells you that eggs lead to heart disease, you might believe it or you might not. But, either way, believing it or not believing it is not a free will choice you make. You might believe it because you trust your doctor. You might believe it because the evidence you've seen is convincing. You might disbelieve it because you don't think the evidence is convincing. But you don't believe something because you make a free will choice to believe.

I recently saw a video of a UFO dropping off 3 mini units and then the UFO dived into the ocean. The video was very compelling. I personally didn't believe it because I'm not inclined to believe in extraterrestrial beings visiting earth. The person showing the video on YT believed it was real. Turns out it was exposed as fake - an extremely well done fake, but a fake. He believed it because if you know him and his YT channel, you know he's inclined to believe these things. But neither he nor I came to our conclusions based on a free will choice to believe or not to believe.

Likewise, believing the Gospel is not a matter of a free will choice. I read the gospel books as an atheist and could explain away everything I read. I didn't disbelieve because I made a free will choice not to believe. As an atheist, I simply was not inclined to believe any of it. The words and stories were just that - words and stories. Years later, God opened my eyes, and I believed. I didn't choose to believe it, I simply believed it because once my eyes were opened, it was plain to me that it was true.

 

[praise_yeshua]

My point is that belief is not a free will choice. If your doctor tells you that eggs lead to heart disease, you might believe it or you might not. But, either way, believing it or not believing it is not a free will choice you make. You might believe it because you trust your doctor. You might believe it because the evidence you've seen is convincing. You might disbelieve it because you don't think the evidence is convincing. But you don't believe something because you make a free will choice to believe.

You just established there are multiple viable scenarios wherein choices are made. You certainly didn't establish your claim that I can't believe something solely based upon evidence. I can. I have. You have.

I recently saw a video of a UFO dropping off 3 mini units and then the UFO dived into the ocean. The video was very compelling. I personally didn't believe it because I'm not inclined to believe in extraterrestrial beings visiting earth. The person showing the video on YT believed it was real. Turns out it was exposed as fake - an extremely well done fake, but a fake. He believed it because if you know him and his YT channel, you know he's inclined to believe these things. But neither he nor I came to our conclusions based on a free will choice to believe or not to believe.

Again. Seeing is not exclusive to believing.

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”

You're still not excluding the ability to freely choose. You're establishing alternate choices.

Likewise, believing the Gospel is not a matter of a free will choice. I read the gospel books as an atheist and could explain away everything I read. I didn't disbelieve because I made a free will choice not to believe. As an atheist, I simply was not inclined to believe any of it. The words and stories were just that - words and stories. Years later, God opened my eyes, and I believed. I didn't choose to believe it, I simply believed it because once my eyes were opened, it was plain to me that it was true.

You're exaggerating your experience. Circumstances in your life changed. You can not discount all the variables that either did not or did lead to your own choice. You're oversimplifying natural things. This life is designed by God to challenge us at every level.

Regardless of our choices today, we certainly make difference choices tomorrow. This very fact alone establish the variableness that is associated with the freedom of will.

 

[civic]

Oh boy the extremes some will take an analogy to that has no comparison to the Bible. Try using one of Jesus analogies sometime they are spot on.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Work with me here. This will connect to the topic of this forum section, I promise. Please answer the questions.

Practical:

1. Do you believe butter and eggs and red meat lead to clogged arteries and heart disease?
2. Did you ever believe butter, eggs, red meat, etc., lead to clogged arteries and heart disease?
3. Do you/did you ever believe that margarine is/was the healthy alternative to butter?
4. If your view changed, why did it change?

1) No
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Because "Medical Science" changed, saying that dietary Cholesterol isn't a factor, and the primary cause of arterial blockage is SUGAR.

 

[Richard]

Work with me here. This will connect to the topic of this forum section, I promise. Please answer the questions.

Practical:

1. Do you believe butter and eggs and red meat lead to clogged arteries and heart disease?
2. Did you ever believe butter, eggs, red meat, etc., lead to clogged arteries and heart disease?
3. Do you/did you ever believe that margarine is/was the healthy alternative to butter?
4. If your view changed, why did it change?

Do I have the right to have an attorney present?

 

[Richard]

Oh boy the extremes done will take an analogy to that has no comparison to the Bible. Try using one of Jesus analogies sometime they are spot on.

I think you may have been eating Cheetos, would you be willing to take a polygraph.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1) No
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Because "Medical Science" changed, saying that dietary Cholesterol isn't a factor, and the primary cause of arterial blockage is SUGAR.

Right. You didn't just get up one day and decide of your own free will to believe butter and red meat will not lead to heart disease. Your new belief was based on evidence.

Here is the exception to believing by evidence, cited by PY.

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”

We don't have physical proof that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead. We have nothing in our lives today to convince us that it is even possible that this happened. We don't have people being raised from the dead today. All we have is a 2,000 year old story. And the story is foolishness to those who are perishing.

That's why I say nobody hears the Gospel and just decides of their own free will to believe it. In order to believe something, you need a reason to believe it's true. The Bible story alone isn't good enough. The Bible is only convincing if you come to believe the Bible is the true word of God.

For that to happen, it requires a supernatural act of God, or some other means used by God. But you don't just wake up one day and decide of your own free will that the Bible is the true word of God, and therefore the Gospel is believable.

Belief is not an act of free will. It is what happens when you recognize something is true.

 

[Richard]

Right. You didn't just get up one day and decide of your own free will to believe butter and red meat will not lead to heart disease. Your new belief was based on evidence.

Here is the exception to believing by evidence, cited by PY.

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”

We don't have physical proof that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead. We have nothing in our lives today to convince us that it is even possible that this happened. We don't have people being raised from the dead today. All we have is a 2,000 year old story. And the story is foolishness to those who are perishing.

That's why I say nobody hears the Gospel and just decides of their own free will to believe it. In order to believe something, you need a reason to believe it's true. The Bible story alone isn't good enough. The Bible is only convincing if you come to believe the Bible is the true word of God.

For that to happen, it requires a supernatural act of God, or some other means used by God. But you don't just wake up one day and decide of your own free will that the Bible is the true word of God, and therefore the Gospel is believable.

Belief is not an act of free will. It is what happens when you recognize something is true.

Well you could use your free will to think about something and make a Free will decision to believe something.

In other words you can use your free will to believe something is true. Like gravity. You can use your free will to think about gravity and the effects of gravity and recognize that it might not be a good idea to jump off of the 12-story building. Or you can go ahead and jump off and find out if it's true or not.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Well you could use your free will to think about something and make a Free will decision to believe something.

In other words you can use your free will to believe something is true. Like gravity. You can use your free will to think about gravity and the effects of gravity and recognize that it might not be a good idea to jump off of the 12-story building. Or you can go ahead and jump off and find out if it's true or not.

It's not a free will choice to believe in gravity. It's there, and we experience it.

 

[Richard]

It's not a free will choice to believe in gravity. It's there, and we experience it.

Not all of us, there are people that have never heard of gravity even though they may be Experiencing it. They scientifically have no clue. But that wasn't the point it was an analogy. Anytime you think of anything except for maybe the answers to a test of the DMV. You're using your free will.
Actually even the test of the DMV you're using your free will because you want to get a driver's license. Anytime you're faced with a choice you think about it and the results of your thinking about it it followed by a decision then you just made a free will choice. We're not puppets.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Right. You didn't just get up one day and decide of your own free will to believe butter and red meat will not lead to heart disease. Your new belief was based on evidence.

True.

Here is the exception to believing by evidence, cited by PY.

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”

What we have now is CONVICTION OF SIN by the Holy Spirit (Romans 10:17 God's WORD to you). That constitutes tangible "Evidence".

We don't have people being raised from the dead today.

Actually we do. Not "Common" but still happens.

The Bible is only convincing if you come to believe the Bible is the true word of God.

Conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit is a "game changer"

For that to happen, it requires a supernatural act of God

True! The Holy Spirit takes care of that.

But you don't just wake up one day and decide of your own free will that the Bible is the true word of God, and therefore the Gospel is believable.

Belief is not an act of free will.

Actually "Belief" is an act of the will, but "belief" doesn't mean SPIT, since it has no "Substance", and isn't an "Evidence" of anything. It's FAITH that get's 'er done, and FAITH requires external proof - i.e. God's WORD to you - Which is where the Holy Spirit comes in.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well you could use your free will to think about something and make a Free will decision to believe something.

In other words you can use your free will to believe something is true. Like gravity. You can use your free will to think about gravity and the effects of gravity and recognize that it might not be a good idea to jump off of the 12-story building. Or you can go ahead and jump off and find out if it's true or not.

It is whatever it is. We call it gravity. The experience is the same.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's not a free will choice to believe in gravity. It's there, and we experience it.

You must realize that that you're using reality as evidence of your choice and then denying that the recognition of realty isn't relative to free will.

I've mentioned this before but we are God in our imaginations. We can imagine anything. Whether it is real or not. Reality is an anchor that distinguishes itself from bad choices. It is also an indication of the freedom of will.

A fool imagines vain things. Solomon witnessed this when he experienced the consequences of ignoring reality.

Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

We are free to pretend and we are free to face reality. Our choice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

True.

What we have now is CONVICTION OF SIN by the Holy Spirit (Romans 10:17 God's WORD to you). That constitutes tangible "Evidence".

The very words of God are life. Those words are preached to others. You're insisting that the Holy Spirit personally do what God has given the Gospel to do.

There is no one, including yourself that can rightfully claim that they know something apart from human language. It is impossible to claim this. Paul told those at Corinth that they couldn't know anything without speaking words easily understood.

Charismatics have been falsely claiming otherwise for many many years.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Right. You didn't just get up one day and decide of your own free will to believe butter and red meat will not lead to heart disease. Your new belief was based on evidence.

Here is the exception to believing by evidence, cited by PY.

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”

We don't have physical proof that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead. We have nothing in our lives today to convince us that it is even possible that this happened. We don't have people being raised from the dead today. All we have is a 2,000 year old story. And the story is foolishness to those who are perishing.

That's why I say nobody hears the Gospel and just decides of their own free will to believe it. In order to believe something, you need a reason to believe it's true. The Bible story alone isn't good enough. The Bible is only convincing if you come to believe the Bible is the true word of God.

This is a rather common argument made in your position. The Scriptures declare the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

When a sinner that hates God naturally is brought to his knees, he naturally understands the finality of his condition. He naturally becomes susceptible to fear and the finality of his condition. Death is all around us. Death is a HUGE motivator. The message of Christianity naturally cuts the heart. The words of the Gospel itself is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

You wouldn't have changed without the Gospel in context of your natural human experience. Also, you listen to those you naturally care about. Which is why....... It is essential to responsibly love your own. Love them enough to share with them teachings of God throughout your life.

FAITH to FAITH.

No one believes a hypocrite.

Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Don't underestimate the impact of men. Evil men prevent salvation. Good men foster salvation.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You're insisting that the Holy Spirit personally do what God has given the Gospel to do.

And You're insisting that "Intellectual assent", and FAITH are the same thing. They're not.

Without the Holy Spirit to DRIVE HOME what the Scriptures say, you've got nothing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Without the Holy Spirit to DRIVE HOME what the Scriptures say, you've got nothing.

Jesus said otherwise. He said the words He spoke were spirit and life. Read it for yourself.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

You're also misapplying the work of the Spirit.

Joh 6:63 The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

The words themselves come from the Spirit and they are life themselves. God spoke and those words still are changing lives of themselves.