Worshipping The Son

[Johann]

The Angel of the Lord is different from the Rock.

Jesus and the Angel of YHWH
The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'
Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18

Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)

Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...

Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt

And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'
* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (𝔓46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).


Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

John 8:58

“εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” (John 8:58)
הֵשִׁיב לָהֶם יֵשׁוּעַ׃ ״אָמֵן אָמֵן אֲנִי אוֹמֵר לָכֶם, בְּטֶרֶם הֱיוֹת אַבְרָהָם, אֲנִי הוּא.<\p>
"So the Judeans said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." The lead up to his statement is this:

“So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”” (John 8:19) “And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.” (John 8:23) ““I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”” (John 8:38)

Jesus took their statement to another level. Not only had he seen Abraham but he was in existence not just before Abraham (which would read ἤμην - ‘I was’) but eternally ‘ἐγὼ εἰμί’. Notice that their response was to pick up stones to throw at him just as in John 10:31 where we are explicitly told their response was to his perceived blasphemy “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

What does Torah say about blasphemy? “‘Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him...” (Leviticus 24:16).

So in John 8:59 their response to his claim was to try and stone him.

John 8:58 reads '...πρὶν (before) Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (was/existed) ἐγὼ εἰμί (I myself am/exist).'

The Greek version (LXX) of the Torah (circa 250 BC) translates "אני הוא" in Deuteronomy 32:39 as "‘See now that I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), And there is no god besides Me..." Isaiah 41:4 "‘I, יהוה , am the first, and with the last. I am he (ἐγώ εἰμι)’ "

Goodnight.

 

[civic]

Jesus and the Angel of YHWH
The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'
Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18

Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)

Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...

Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt

And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'
* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (𝔓46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).


Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

John 8:58

“εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” (John 8:58)
הֵשִׁיב לָהֶם יֵשׁוּעַ׃ ״אָמֵן אָמֵן אֲנִי אוֹמֵר לָכֶם, בְּטֶרֶם הֱיוֹת אַבְרָהָם, אֲנִי הוּא.<\p>
"So the Judeans said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." The lead up to his statement is this:

“So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”” (John 8:19) “And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.” (John 8:23) ““I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”” (John 8:38)

Jesus took their statement to another level. Not only had he seen Abraham but he was in existence not just before Abraham (which would read ἤμην - ‘I was’) but eternally ‘ἐγὼ εἰμί’. Notice that their response was to pick up stones to throw at him just as in John 10:31 where we are explicitly told their response was to his perceived blasphemy “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

What does Torah say about blasphemy? “‘Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him...” (Leviticus 24:16).

So in John 8:59 their response to his claim was to try and stone him.

John 8:58 reads '...πρὶν (before) Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (was/existed) ἐγὼ εἰμί (I myself am/exist).'

The Greek version (LXX) of the Torah (circa 250 BC) translates "אני הוא" in Deuteronomy 32:39 as "‘See now that I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), And there is no god besides Me..." Isaiah 41:4 "‘I, יהוה , am the first, and with the last. I am he (ἐγώ εἰμι)’ "

Goodnight.

You must type a 1000 words per minute

 

[Johann]

Jesus and the Angel of YHWH
The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'
Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18

Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)

Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...

Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt

And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'
* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (𝔓46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).


Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

John 8:58

“εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” (John 8:58)
הֵשִׁיב לָהֶם יֵשׁוּעַ׃ ״אָמֵן אָמֵן אֲנִי אוֹמֵר לָכֶם, בְּטֶרֶם הֱיוֹת אַבְרָהָם, אֲנִי הוּא.<\p>
"So the Judeans said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." The lead up to his statement is this:

“So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”” (John 8:19) “And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.” (John 8:23) ““I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”” (John 8:38)

Jesus took their statement to another level. Not only had he seen Abraham but he was in existence not just before Abraham (which would read ἤμην - ‘I was’) but eternally ‘ἐγὼ εἰμί’. Notice that their response was to pick up stones to throw at him just as in John 10:31 where we are explicitly told their response was to his perceived blasphemy “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

What does Torah say about blasphemy? “‘Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him...” (Leviticus 24:16).

So in John 8:59 their response to his claim was to try and stone him.

John 8:58 reads '...πρὶν (before) Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (was/existed) ἐγὼ εἰμί (I myself am/exist).'

The Greek version (LXX) of the Torah (circa 250 BC) translates "אני הוא" in Deuteronomy 32:39 as "‘See now that I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), And there is no god besides Me..." Isaiah 41:4 "‘I, יהוה , am the first, and with the last. I am he (ἐγώ εἰμι)’ "

Goodnight.

Not a hint of the Law of Moses, of Sinai, the nation or Torah, in the Psalm. Jesus points to the Tanakh’s acknowledgement of the existence of other elohim (also called malakhim and ‘sons of elohim’) in the heavenly court. There are divine beings in the Tanakh but only one eternal Elohim who is יהוה and Jesus is one with this Elohim who is both יהוה and Father. The other implication is that he is Lord of this heavenly council. The Tanakh points to one who is Angel and yet God.

Some interpret certain uses of elohim as meaning human judges but Heisler asserts, "However, neither judges nor elders are found in Exodus 21, and the Old Testament never uses the term elohim for human leaders anywhere else. Many presume that Exodus 18 refers to the elders as elohim, but the text never makes that equation. Elohim there refers, as usual, to God. A comparison of Exodus 21:1–6 (אֶל־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים) with its parallel in Deuteronomy 15:12–18 further weakens this argument." (Michael S. Heiser, The Bible Unfiltered: Approaching Scripture on Its Own Terms (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2017), 63.) “The Jewish authorities got the message, too—they charged him with blasphemy. Now ask yourself, why would they do that if all Jesus was saying was “you mortal Jews get to call yourselves sons of God, and אלהים, so I can, too.” That makes no sense at all.”

Michael S. Heiser, The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, First Edition. (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2015)

Jesus also said:

“If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me; but if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works..."
Throughout John's Gospel works (ἔργα) refer to Jesus' powerful miracles in terms of God's salvation. They testify to his authenticity: “...for the works which the Father has given me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent me.” (John 5:36). Jesus works are the works of God (John 9:3). He was to accomplish God's work (John 4:34) and did complete the task (John 17:4) of bringing God's salvation (John 6:29). God's work is Jesus' work and this claim resulted in another attempt to kill him: “But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” For this reason therefore the Judeans were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” (John 5:17–18).

It was the works which showed he was the divine Messiah (John 10:24-25). He is the source of eternal life and holds believers in the safety of his hand/power. In fact, to be in his hand is to be in the Father's hand. They are one. The context is clear (John 10:24-30). Again, the Judeans knew what he was claiming (John 10:31, 33). The works legitimize his claim (John 10:32):

““If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”” (John 10:37–38).
Again, they knew what he was claiming and tried to seize him (John 10:39). The works are proof of the unity of the Father and Son: ““Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.” (John 14:11).

In fact to reject the works of Jesus is to hate both the Father and Son (John 15:24).

Conclusion

The one who became a man is self-existing. The language John uses in chapter 1 makes a distinction between the one eternally existing as the Word and his becoming at a point in time, a man. The Word already existed '...in the beginning', reflecting the words of Genesis 1:1 but the Word became human and lived a human life. Yet he claimed something which the religious leaders saw as blasphemy. In John 8:58 he used a phrase which is applied to God in Isaiah (אני הוא - Isaiah 43:13 et al) and is related to Exodus 3:14. 'I am' in this context was a claim to being eternal and only God is eternal. They certainly got his gist. John 1:2 says that οὗτος (he) was in the beginning with God. Throughout John οὗτος is both personal and refers to a person. All things were created 'through him'. John states that he 'beheld' the glory of the λόγος in the person of Jesus. John's testimony of Jesus was that he existed before him, as the unique God who manifests the Father to the world.

The paradox is mind blowing. The eternal becomes temporal. The divine becomes a man - completely... but without ceasing to be self-existent. The immortal becomes mortal. The omniscient becomes limited. The omnipresent becomes focused in time and place. Yet God remains God. We see this throughout Tanakh. The one who fills all things and is present in all time is manifest in one place and time. The God who is one is sender and yet sent. ““This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)

“And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20) “οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἥκει καὶ δέδωκεν ἡμῖν διάνοιαν ἵνα γινώσκωμεν τὸν ἀληθινόν, καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ, ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.”
To be in the Son is to be in God. In fact he is the true God.

Later.

 

[civic]

Not a hint of the Law of Moses, of Sinai, the nation or Torah, in the Psalm. Jesus points to the Tanakh’s acknowledgement of the existence of other elohim (also called malakhim and ‘sons of elohim’) in the heavenly court. There are divine beings in the Tanakh but only one eternal Elohim who is יהוה and Jesus is one with this Elohim who is both יהוה and Father. The other implication is that he is Lord of this heavenly council. The Tanakh points to one who is Angel and yet God.

Some interpret certain uses of elohim as meaning human judges but Heisler asserts, "However, neither judges nor elders are found in Exodus 21, and the Old Testament never uses the term elohim for human leaders anywhere else. Many presume that Exodus 18 refers to the elders as elohim, but the text never makes that equation. Elohim there refers, as usual, to God. A comparison of Exodus 21:1–6 (אֶל־הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים) with its parallel in Deuteronomy 15:12–18 further weakens this argument." (Michael S. Heiser, The Bible Unfiltered: Approaching Scripture on Its Own Terms (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2017), 63.) “The Jewish authorities got the message, too—they charged him with blasphemy. Now ask yourself, why would they do that if all Jesus was saying was “you mortal Jews get to call yourselves sons of God, and אלהים, so I can, too.” That makes no sense at all.”

Michael S. Heiser, The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, First Edition. (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2015)

Jesus also said:

“If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me; but if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works..."
Throughout John's Gospel works (ἔργα) refer to Jesus' powerful miracles in terms of God's salvation. They testify to his authenticity: “...for the works which the Father has given me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent me.” (John 5:36). Jesus works are the works of God (John 9:3). He was to accomplish God's work (John 4:34) and did complete the task (John 17:4) of bringing God's salvation (John 6:29). God's work is Jesus' work and this claim resulted in another attempt to kill him: “But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” For this reason therefore the Judeans were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” (John 5:17–18).

It was the works which showed he was the divine Messiah (John 10:24-25). He is the source of eternal life and holds believers in the safety of his hand/power. In fact, to be in his hand is to be in the Father's hand. They are one. The context is clear (John 10:24-30). Again, the Judeans knew what he was claiming (John 10:31, 33). The works legitimize his claim (John 10:32):

““If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”” (John 10:37–38).
Again, they knew what he was claiming and tried to seize him (John 10:39). The works are proof of the unity of the Father and Son: ““Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.” (John 14:11).

In fact to reject the works of Jesus is to hate both the Father and Son (John 15:24).

Conclusion

The one who became a man is self-existing. The language John uses in chapter 1 makes a distinction between the one eternally existing as the Word and his becoming at a point in time, a man. The Word already existed '...in the beginning', reflecting the words of Genesis 1:1 but the Word became human and lived a human life. Yet he claimed something which the religious leaders saw as blasphemy. In John 8:58 he used a phrase which is applied to God in Isaiah (אני הוא - Isaiah 43:13 et al) and is related to Exodus 3:14. 'I am' in this context was a claim to being eternal and only God is eternal. They certainly got his gist. John 1:2 says that οὗτος (he) was in the beginning with God. Throughout John οὗτος is both personal and refers to a person. All things were created 'through him'. John states that he 'beheld' the glory of the λόγος in the person of Jesus. John's testimony of Jesus was that he existed before him, as the unique God who manifests the Father to the world.

The paradox is mind blowing. The eternal becomes temporal. The divine becomes a man - completely... but without ceasing to be self-existent. The immortal becomes mortal. The omniscient becomes limited. The omnipresent becomes focused in time and place. Yet God remains God. We see this throughout Tanakh. The one who fills all things and is present in all time is manifest in one place and time. The God who is one is sender and yet sent. ““This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)

“And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20) “οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἥκει καὶ δέδωκεν ἡμῖν διάνοιαν ἵνα γινώσκωμεν τὸν ἀληθινόν, καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ, ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.”
To be in the Son is to be in God. In fact he is the true God.

Later.

The Father has never been seen or heard in the OT.

Your source is wrong. Jesus refutes it.

 

[Johann]

You must type a 1000 words per minute

I have my sources-years of work.
Signing off.
J.

 

[Johann]

The Father has never been seen or heard in the OT.

Your source is wrong. Jesus refutes it.

Error-let's leave it at that.

 

[civic]

Whose voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?

Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

Jesus said the following about God the Father !

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Error-let's leave it at that.

Not my error as I’m 100 % correct according to Jesus teaching.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

Not my error as I’m 100 % correct according to Jesus teaching.

Hope this helps !!!

"Hear Oh Israel, Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!"

The unity of God is one of complexity. God is unseen and yet seen, omnipresent and yet localized. Not human and yet became human.

Exodus 33:20

וימר לא תוכל לראת את פני כי לא יראני האדם וחי

Genesis 32:30

ויקרא יכקב שם המקום פנישל כי ראיתי אלהים פנים ותנצל נפשי

Judges 6:22

וירא גדעון כי מלאך יהוה הוא ויאמר גדעון אהה אדני יהוה כי על כן ראיתי מלאך יהוה פנים ויאמר לו יהוה שלום לך

Exodus 24:10f

ויראו את אלהי ישרשל ותחת רגליו כמעשה לבנת הספיר וכעצם השמים לטהר ואל אצילי בני ישראל לא שלח ידו ויחזו את האלהים ויאכלו וישתו
Exodus 33:11

ידבר יהוה אל משה פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל רעהו

Exodus 3:6

ויאמר אנכי אלהי אביך אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב ויסתר משה פניו כי ירא מהביט אל האלהים

Genesis 16:13

ותקרא שם יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי

Judges 13:22

ויאמר מנוח אל אשתו מות נמות כי אלהים ראינו



Isaiah 6:1, 5

בשנת מות המלך עזיהו יאראה את אדני ישב על כסא רם ונשא ושוליו מלאים את ההיכל ואמר אוי לי כי נדמיתי כי איש טמא שפתים אנכי ובתוך עם טמא שפתים אנכי יושב כי את המלך יהוה צבאות ראו עיני
Notice what happens in...
Judges 13

The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) appeared to the woman... (Judges 13:3). Then the woman came and told her husband that a 'man' had appeared to her (Judges 13:6). The Messenger appeared as a man but was more than a man. Then Manoah, her husband, prayed to God (Judges 13:8).

The Divine Messenger appeared again (Judges 13:9). Manoah wanted the Messenger to stay and eat with them (Judges 13:15) but he did not know who the Divine Messenger was. The Messenger instead asked that they make a sacrifice to God (Judges 13:16). Manoah wanted to know who he was (Judges 13:17) but the Messenger told him that his name was beyond understanding - [פלא] (Judges 13:18) [a hint here of his divine nature]. In the next verse the Messenger is called YHWH and accepts the sacrifice (Judges 13:19) and the next verse explains what was happening. The Divine Messenger who is called YHWH, ascended in the sacrifice and this caused the couple to prostrate themselves before him and worship (Judges 13:20). It was at this point that Manoah recognised the Divine Messenger (Judges 13:21) and understood that they had been in the presence of God and seen YHWH (Judges 13:22). This is made certain by his wife's response when she described the Messenger as YHWH (Judges 13:23).


Back to the top
Did Jesus and Paul cause Jews to 'go after other gods'?

It is claimed that Jesus caused Jews to follow other gods and that followers of Jesus are idolaters.

"It is clear in Deuteronomy 13 that you should not go after other gods that your ancestors did not know about, well my ancestors did not know about Jesus"

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for YHWH your God is testing you to find out if you love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

For followers of Jesus the resurrection was what came true in terms of what he spoke and as the ultimate sign he gave. But the key issue is, did Jesus teach his followers to 'go after other gods... and serve them'?

שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד ואהבת את יהוה אלהיך בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך

““Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God, YHWH is one! “You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” (Deuteronomy 6:4–5)

Jesus:

“One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! YHWH our God is one YHWH; and you shall love YHWH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’” (Mark 12:28–30)

Paul:

“...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6)

“one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:6)

James:
James said that we do well if we believe God is one
(James 2:19)

--------------------------------------------------------------

This is what Jesus said to his followers...

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it... if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you."

Jesus gives the reason why his followers can ask in his name...

"...Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me... I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known..."

The name YHWH (יהוה) is given to Jesus and this is not idolatry because we find it in the Tanakh.

"“Behold, I am going to send an Messenger (מלך) before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. “Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since MY NAME IS WITHIN HIM. “But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. “For My Messenger (מלך) will go before you and bring you in to the land..." (Exodus 23:20ff)

Now in view of what YHWH says in Isaiah:

“I am YHWH, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another..."

We have a problem because another is sharing the name YHWH. But if, as is shown throughout the Tanakh more than one is addressed as YHWH then the problem disappears and Yeshua is not an idol.

There is someone in the Tanakh who is other than YHWH and yet is one with YHWH. The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) is described through the Scriptures as YHWH and God and yet is sent by YHWH (יהוה). In fact, his appearance is always described as an appearance of YHWH and YHWH is always in human form. When Jacob blessed his sons he said that YHWH was.

"...The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, The God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, The Messenger who has redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads..." (Gen.48)

There is a lot more that can and will be said about the Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) but this is enough to begin to show that the idea of YHWH (יהוה) taking on human form in the Messenger and sharing his name should make us think before dismissing Jesus' claims as novel and alien to the Tanakh.

The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) appeared to Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush (Exodus 3:2). Moses turned to find out what was going on and the Messenger addressed him as YHWH (Exodus 3:4) and described himself as the God of Moses' ancestors. Moses realised that the Messenger was actually God and hid his face (Exodus 3:6). We know that the Messenger was in fact YHWH because we read about it in Deuteronomy 33:16. "... the favour of him who dwelt in the bush."

The Divine Messenger who is identified as YHWH explained to Moses that he had come down to bring deliverance to the people enslaved in Egypt (Exodus 3:8). Several times it was said of the Divine Messenger that he was the God of the ancestors of the Hebrews (Exodus 3:13, 15-16) and not only so but this Messenger who appeared as YHWH and God (Exodus 4:1; Exodus 5:3)

It is clear that the Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) is somehow one with YHWH. Here the Messenger is clearly the deliverer of Israel and he is addressed as YHWH and acts as YHWH. We read elsewhere in Exodus that the Divine Messenger not only acts for God but is YHWH. God promised to send a Messenger with the people (Exodus 23:20). This Messenger was to be obeyed and had the authority to forgive sins. The reason is clear - he possesses the name and nature of YHWH (Exodus 23:21). The people must obey him and he will lead them into the promised land (Exodus 23:22-23). God states in Exodus 20:2 that he brought the people out of Egypt. We also read that it was the Divine Messenger who brought the people out (Judges 2:1). There is a mysterious oneness between YHWH and the Messenger.

The Elders of Israel saw God

“Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”

ויעל משה ואהרן נדב ואביהוא ושבעים מזקני ישראל ויראו את אלהי ישראל ותחת רגליו כמעשה לבנת הספיר וכעצם השמים לטהר ואל אצילי בני ישראל לא שלח ידו ויחזו את האלהים ויאכלו וישתו

(Exodus 24:9–11)

John 1:18 tells us that visible appearances of God were appearances of Jesus, the Divine Messenger in Tanakh.

Jacob wrestled with a man

Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak (Genesis 32:24). Jacob realised that the man he wrestled with was God (Genesis 32:30). This is explained in Hosea. The man is described as God (Hosea 12:3). In fact it was the Divine Messenger (Hosea 12:4) and this Messenger is revealed as YHWH (Hosea 12:5). At the end of Jacob's life he reflected when he blessed Joseph and equated the Divine Messenger with God (Gen. 49:15-16)

 

[DavidTree]

Guess you missed the Definite Article-no problem.

1Co 10:1 [I do not want But] you to be ignorant, brethren, but know that our fathers all [under the cloud were], and all [through the sea went],
1Co 10:2 and all unto Moses were immersed in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3 and all [the same food spiritual ate],
1Co 10:4 and all [the same drink spiritual drank]; for they drank from a spiritual [following rock], and the rock was the Christ.
1Co 10:5 But not with the most of them did [think well of God]; for they were prostrated in the wilderness.

1Co 10:4 And all of the same spiritual drink drank, for they were drinking from a spiritual TZUR following them [SHEMOT 17:6; BAMIDBAR 20:11; TEHILLIM 78:15; 105:41], and that TZUR was Moshiach.

Psalm 62
Truly my soul silently waits for God;
From Him comes my salvation.
He only is my rock and my salvation;

 

[Johann]

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Idols and prohibitions

The context of Deuteronomy 4:12 shows Moses reminding the people about the incident at Horeb. They heard the voice of YHWH but did not see a form (תמונה). This seems to have the idea of a pattern or type as in the 'kinds' of Genesis 1 (מין) and so would point to the mode of appearance. Moses saw what YHWH appeared as in Numbers 12:8 but elsewhere we read that Moses did not see the face/glory of YHWH (Exodus 33:18-23) and this is reiterated by Paul in the New Testament "I charge you in the presence of God... who is the blessed and only Sovereign... whom no one has ever seen or can see. " (1 Timothy 6). And yet... YHWH is seen: Genesis 32:30 "So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”" (כי ראיתי אלהים פנים אל פנים). See also a small sample: Genesis 16:13; Isaiah 6:1, 5 and of course, Exodus 24:10-11.

So if YHWH is seen in so many places in Tanakh (and especially Torah), and appears as a man, what do we make of the passages stating that God cannot be seen and has not been seen.

The clue for interpreting Deuteronomy 4 is the word for image (פסל) which refers to something carved or cut. The command is not to turn YHWH into a carved image. In other words, you didn't see what I look like, so don't try to represent me with some stone or wooden effigy. Again, Paul repeated this in Romans 1:23 "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God... and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures."

So how did many in the Tanakh see the unseeable?

Zechariah gives us a clue. YHWH speaks and says:

“For this is what YHWH of armies says (YHWH is speaking),
after his glory sent ME (YHWH) to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of HIS eye: “Behold, I (YHWH) will shake my hand over them, and they shall become plunder for those who served them. Then you will know that YHWH of hosts has sent me (YHWH). Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I (YHWH) come and I (YHWH) will dwell in your midst, declares YHWH. And many nations shall join themselves to YHWH in that day, and shall be MY people. And I (YHWH) will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that YHWH of hosts has sent ME (YHWH) to you.” (Zechariah 2:8–11)

Notice that YHWH speaks and states that YHWH sent him. YHWH will come to Jerusalem. YHWH will take a people from the Gentiles. This will cause the Jews to know that YHWH sent YHWH to them (Cf. Zechariah 12:10ff). And from this we get an explanation from John 1:18: "No one has seen God at any time; the unique God who is closest to the Father, He has made him known ("Jesus said... He who has seen me has seen the Father..." John 14:9)).

The relationship between the unseen YHWH and the visible Divine Messenger in the Tanakh is revealed in the New Testament in Jesus the Messiah. The Divine Messenger possessed the name and nature of YHWH and yet was sent from YHWH. And in the New Testament Yeshua was sent from the Father. As Paul put it, "God was in Messiah".

1st comment

There is no command in Deuteronomy 4 concerning God's form/appearance. Deuteronomy 4:8 states: "Then יהוה spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice." Here we have a statement not a command. The people heard but didn't see. The teaching is not that God does not have a form which cannot be seen but that the people should not make a visible representation of God (פסל) in the appearance of a creature or created object. The commandment is a prohibition of making idols "“When you become the father of children and children’s children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger."

Numbers 12:8 is clear that God does have a form/appearance and Exodus 24:10 (Also, Isaiah 6:1,5) explicitly states that God can be seen.

God says in Exodus 33:20 “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me AND LIVE!” And that's the key here. It's not that God cannot be seen (He clearly can be as shown in other texts) but that in this context Moses is prohibited from seeing God (sing. לא תוכל). We know from Numbers 12:6ff that Moses had seen God's form but in this context he was prevented and we can see why from his request: "Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory! - כבוד ”". It would seem that Moses wanted to see the unveiled appearance of God and that would have killed him.

2nd Comment

Deuteronomy 4:12, 15.
And YHWH spoke to you (וידבר יהוה אליכם) from within the fire (מתוך האש). You heard [the] sound of words (קל דברים אתם שמעים) but you did not see a form (ותמונה אינכם ראים), only a sound (זולתי קול)... Watch yourselves very much (ונשמרתם מאד לנפשתיכם) because (כי) you did not see any form (לא ראיתם כל תמונה)... Lest you corrupt (פן תשחתון) [yourselves] and make for yourselves (ועשיתם לכם) an idol (פסל), a form of any shape (תמונת כל סמל)...
Nothing here to suggest that the divine does not have a visible form or that YHWH has not appeared in visible form, only a warning that the people, being prone to making images (Golden Calf), should not try to represent YHWH with an image/statue. Unfortunately the nation never did listen as verse 25 foretells. Verse 28 clarifies the meaning of the text. YHWH is not to be treated like the gods of the nations and turned into a carved image or statue. It is not that YHWH does not have a visible form. He clearly does according to the witness of many Tanakh texts. Rather, if the people saw his form they would be tempted to turn it into a physical idol.
Deuteronomy 5:8 ‘You shall not MAKE for yourself an פסל (carved image), or any תמונה (physical appearance) of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:23 ‘You shall not MAKE other gods besides Me; gods of silver or gods of gold, you shall not MAKE for yourselves.
Leviticus 26:1 ‘You shall not MAKE for yourselves idols, nor shall you SET UP for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you PLACE a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am יהוה your God.
2 Kings 17:16 They forsook all the commandments of יהוה their God and MADE for themselves molten images, even two calves, and MADE an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal.

There are two injunctions flowing from Deut 4:15:

1) Lest you (פן) act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure...

2) “... lest (פן) you lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them...

The first, relates to man made images and the second which was not discussed relates to treating the heavenly bodies as deities, as the surrounding nations also did.

Gospel 101

And now I'm tired.

 

[DavidTree]

"Hear Oh Israel, Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!"

The unity of God is one of complexity. God is unseen and yet seen, omnipresent and yet localized. Not human and yet became human.

Exodus 33:20

וימר לא תוכל לראת את פני כי לא יראני האדם וחי

Genesis 32:30

ויקרא יכקב שם המקום פנישל כי ראיתי אלהים פנים ותנצל נפשי

Judges 6:22

וירא גדעון כי מלאך יהוה הוא ויאמר גדעון אהה אדני יהוה כי על כן ראיתי מלאך יהוה פנים ויאמר לו יהוה שלום לך

Exodus 24:10f

ויראו את אלהי ישרשל ותחת רגליו כמעשה לבנת הספיר וכעצם השמים לטהר ואל אצילי בני ישראל לא שלח ידו ויחזו את האלהים ויאכלו וישתו
Exodus 33:11

ידבר יהוה אל משה פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל רעהו

Exodus 3:6

ויאמר אנכי אלהי אביך אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב ויסתר משה פניו כי ירא מהביט אל האלהים

Genesis 16:13

ותקרא שם יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי

Judges 13:22

ויאמר מנוח אל אשתו מות נמות כי אלהים ראינו



Isaiah 6:1, 5

בשנת מות המלך עזיהו יאראה את אדני ישב על כסא רם ונשא ושוליו מלאים את ההיכל ואמר אוי לי כי נדמיתי כי איש טמא שפתים אנכי ובתוך עם טמא שפתים אנכי יושב כי את המלך יהוה צבאות ראו עיני
Notice what happens in...
Judges 13

The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) appeared to the woman... (Judges 13:3). Then the woman came and told her husband that a 'man' had appeared to her (Judges 13:6). The Messenger appeared as a man but was more than a man. Then Manoah, her husband, prayed to God (Judges 13:8).

The Divine Messenger appeared again (Judges 13:9). Manoah wanted the Messenger to stay and eat with them (Judges 13:15) but he did not know who the Divine Messenger was. The Messenger instead asked that they make a sacrifice to God (Judges 13:16). Manoah wanted to know who he was (Judges 13:17) but the Messenger told him that his name was beyond understanding - [פלא] (Judges 13:18) [a hint here of his divine nature]. In the next verse the Messenger is called YHWH and accepts the sacrifice (Judges 13:19) and the next verse explains what was happening. The Divine Messenger who is called YHWH, ascended in the sacrifice and this caused the couple to prostrate themselves before him and worship (Judges 13:20). It was at this point that Manoah recognised the Divine Messenger (Judges 13:21) and understood that they had been in the presence of God and seen YHWH (Judges 13:22). This is made certain by his wife's response when she described the Messenger as YHWH (Judges 13:23).


Back to the top
Did Jesus and Paul cause Jews to 'go after other gods'?

It is claimed that Jesus caused Jews to follow other gods and that followers of Jesus are idolaters.

"It is clear in Deuteronomy 13 that you should not go after other gods that your ancestors did not know about, well my ancestors did not know about Jesus"

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for YHWH your God is testing you to find out if you love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

For followers of Jesus the resurrection was what came true in terms of what he spoke and as the ultimate sign he gave. But the key issue is, did Jesus teach his followers to 'go after other gods... and serve them'?

שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד ואהבת את יהוה אלהיך בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך

““Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God, YHWH is one! “You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” (Deuteronomy 6:4–5)

Jesus:

“One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! YHWH our God is one YHWH; and you shall love YHWH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’” (Mark 12:28–30)

Paul:

“...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6)

“one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:6)

James:
James said that we do well if we believe God is one
(James 2:19)

--------------------------------------------------------------

This is what Jesus said to his followers...

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it... if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you."

Jesus gives the reason why his followers can ask in his name...

"...Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me... I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known..."

The name YHWH (יהוה) is given to Jesus and this is not idolatry because we find it in the Tanakh.

"“Behold, I am going to send an Messenger (מלך) before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. “Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since MY NAME IS WITHIN HIM. “But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. “For My Messenger (מלך) will go before you and bring you in to the land..." (Exodus 23:20ff)

Now in view of what YHWH says in Isaiah:

“I am YHWH, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another..."

We have a problem because another is sharing the name YHWH. But if, as is shown throughout the Tanakh more than one is addressed as YHWH then the problem disappears and Yeshua is not an idol.

There is someone in the Tanakh who is other than YHWH and yet is one with YHWH. The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) is described through the Scriptures as YHWH and God and yet is sent by YHWH (יהוה). In fact, his appearance is always described as an appearance of YHWH and YHWH is always in human form. When Jacob blessed his sons he said that YHWH was.

"...The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, The God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, The Messenger who has redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads..." (Gen.48)

There is a lot more that can and will be said about the Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) but this is enough to begin to show that the idea of YHWH (יהוה) taking on human form in the Messenger and sharing his name should make us think before dismissing Jesus' claims as novel and alien to the Tanakh.

The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) appeared to Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush (Exodus 3:2). Moses turned to find out what was going on and the Messenger addressed him as YHWH (Exodus 3:4) and described himself as the God of Moses' ancestors. Moses realised that the Messenger was actually God and hid his face (Exodus 3:6). We know that the Messenger was in fact YHWH because we read about it in Deuteronomy 33:16. "... the favour of him who dwelt in the bush."

The Divine Messenger who is identified as YHWH explained to Moses that he had come down to bring deliverance to the people enslaved in Egypt (Exodus 3:8). Several times it was said of the Divine Messenger that he was the God of the ancestors of the Hebrews (Exodus 3:13, 15-16) and not only so but this Messenger who appeared as YHWH and God (Exodus 4:1; Exodus 5:3)

It is clear that the Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) is somehow one with YHWH. Here the Messenger is clearly the deliverer of Israel and he is addressed as YHWH and acts as YHWH. We read elsewhere in Exodus that the Divine Messenger not only acts for God but is YHWH. God promised to send a Messenger with the people (Exodus 23:20). This Messenger was to be obeyed and had the authority to forgive sins. The reason is clear - he possesses the name and nature of YHWH (Exodus 23:21). The people must obey him and he will lead them into the promised land (Exodus 23:22-23). God states in Exodus 20:2 that he brought the people out of Egypt. We also read that it was the Divine Messenger who brought the people out (Judges 2:1). There is a mysterious oneness between YHWH and the Messenger.

The Elders of Israel saw God

“Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”

ויעל משה ואהרן נדב ואביהוא ושבעים מזקני ישראל ויראו את אלהי ישראל ותחת רגליו כמעשה לבנת הספיר וכעצם השמים לטהר ואל אצילי בני ישראל לא שלח ידו ויחזו את האלהים ויאכלו וישתו

(Exodus 24:9–11)

John 1:18 tells us that visible appearances of God were appearances of Jesus, the Divine Messenger in Tanakh.

Jacob wrestled with a man

Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak (Genesis 32:24). Jacob realised that the man he wrestled with was God (Genesis 32:30). This is explained in Hosea. The man is described as God (Hosea 12:3). In fact it was the Divine Messenger (Hosea 12:4) and this Messenger is revealed as YHWH (Hosea 12:5). At the end of Jacob's life he reflected when he blessed Joseph and equated the Divine Messenger with God (Gen. 49:15-16)

@Johann says: John 1:18 tells us that visible appearances of God were appearances of Jesus, the Divine Messenger in Tanakh.

NEVER forget this - ALWAYS keep it in the forefront of your mind.

 

[Johann]

@Johann says: John 1:18 tells us that visible appearances of God were appearances of Jesus, the Divine Messenger in Tanakh.

NEVER forget this - ALWAYS keep it in the forefront of your mind.

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen Hashem [Ex 33:20]. It is Elohim the Ben Yachid [who shares the nature of Hashem, the Chochman Ben Elohim at his side, see very importantly Mishle 8:30; 30:4)], it is he, the one being in the kheyk (bosom) of HaAv, this one is Hashem's definitive midrash (exegesis).

Joh 1:18 [God No one has seen] at any time; the only born son, the one being in the bosom of the father, that one described him.

Does it mean YHVH was NEVER seen or heard in the Torah?

 

[civic]

"Hear Oh Israel, Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!"

The unity of God is one of complexity. God is unseen and yet seen, omnipresent and yet localized. Not human and yet became human.

Exodus 33:20

וימר לא תוכל לראת את פני כי לא יראני האדם וחי

Genesis 32:30

ויקרא יכקב שם המקום פנישל כי ראיתי אלהים פנים ותנצל נפשי

Judges 6:22

וירא גדעון כי מלאך יהוה הוא ויאמר גדעון אהה אדני יהוה כי על כן ראיתי מלאך יהוה פנים ויאמר לו יהוה שלום לך

Exodus 24:10f

ויראו את אלהי ישרשל ותחת רגליו כמעשה לבנת הספיר וכעצם השמים לטהר ואל אצילי בני ישראל לא שלח ידו ויחזו את האלהים ויאכלו וישתו
Exodus 33:11

ידבר יהוה אל משה פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל רעהו

Exodus 3:6

ויאמר אנכי אלהי אביך אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב ויסתר משה פניו כי ירא מהביט אל האלהים

Genesis 16:13

ותקרא שם יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי

Judges 13:22

ויאמר מנוח אל אשתו מות נמות כי אלהים ראינו



Isaiah 6:1, 5

בשנת מות המלך עזיהו יאראה את אדני ישב על כסא רם ונשא ושוליו מלאים את ההיכל ואמר אוי לי כי נדמיתי כי איש טמא שפתים אנכי ובתוך עם טמא שפתים אנכי יושב כי את המלך יהוה צבאות ראו עיני
Notice what happens in...
Judges 13

The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) appeared to the woman... (Judges 13:3). Then the woman came and told her husband that a 'man' had appeared to her (Judges 13:6). The Messenger appeared as a man but was more than a man. Then Manoah, her husband, prayed to God (Judges 13:8).

The Divine Messenger appeared again (Judges 13:9). Manoah wanted the Messenger to stay and eat with them (Judges 13:15) but he did not know who the Divine Messenger was. The Messenger instead asked that they make a sacrifice to God (Judges 13:16). Manoah wanted to know who he was (Judges 13:17) but the Messenger told him that his name was beyond understanding - [פלא] (Judges 13:18) [a hint here of his divine nature]. In the next verse the Messenger is called YHWH and accepts the sacrifice (Judges 13:19) and the next verse explains what was happening. The Divine Messenger who is called YHWH, ascended in the sacrifice and this caused the couple to prostrate themselves before him and worship (Judges 13:20). It was at this point that Manoah recognised the Divine Messenger (Judges 13:21) and understood that they had been in the presence of God and seen YHWH (Judges 13:22). This is made certain by his wife's response when she described the Messenger as YHWH (Judges 13:23).


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Did Jesus and Paul cause Jews to 'go after other gods'?

It is claimed that Jesus caused Jews to follow other gods and that followers of Jesus are idolaters.

"It is clear in Deuteronomy 13 that you should not go after other gods that your ancestors did not know about, well my ancestors did not know about Jesus"

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for YHWH your God is testing you to find out if you love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

For followers of Jesus the resurrection was what came true in terms of what he spoke and as the ultimate sign he gave. But the key issue is, did Jesus teach his followers to 'go after other gods... and serve them'?

שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד ואהבת את יהוה אלהיך בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך

““Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God, YHWH is one! “You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” (Deuteronomy 6:4–5)

Jesus:

“One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! YHWH our God is one YHWH; and you shall love YHWH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’” (Mark 12:28–30)

Paul:

“...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6)

“one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:6)

James:
James said that we do well if we believe God is one
(James 2:19)

--------------------------------------------------------------

This is what Jesus said to his followers...

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it... if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you."

Jesus gives the reason why his followers can ask in his name...

"...Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me... I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known..."

The name YHWH (יהוה) is given to Jesus and this is not idolatry because we find it in the Tanakh.

"“Behold, I am going to send an Messenger (מלך) before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. “Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since MY NAME IS WITHIN HIM. “But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. “For My Messenger (מלך) will go before you and bring you in to the land..." (Exodus 23:20ff)

Now in view of what YHWH says in Isaiah:

“I am YHWH, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another..."

We have a problem because another is sharing the name YHWH. But if, as is shown throughout the Tanakh more than one is addressed as YHWH then the problem disappears and Yeshua is not an idol.

There is someone in the Tanakh who is other than YHWH and yet is one with YHWH. The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) is described through the Scriptures as YHWH and God and yet is sent by YHWH (יהוה). In fact, his appearance is always described as an appearance of YHWH and YHWH is always in human form. When Jacob blessed his sons he said that YHWH was.

"...The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, The God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, The Messenger who has redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads..." (Gen.48)

There is a lot more that can and will be said about the Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) but this is enough to begin to show that the idea of YHWH (יהוה) taking on human form in the Messenger and sharing his name should make us think before dismissing Jesus' claims as novel and alien to the Tanakh.

The Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) appeared to Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush (Exodus 3:2). Moses turned to find out what was going on and the Messenger addressed him as YHWH (Exodus 3:4) and described himself as the God of Moses' ancestors. Moses realised that the Messenger was actually God and hid his face (Exodus 3:6). We know that the Messenger was in fact YHWH because we read about it in Deuteronomy 33:16. "... the favour of him who dwelt in the bush."

The Divine Messenger who is identified as YHWH explained to Moses that he had come down to bring deliverance to the people enslaved in Egypt (Exodus 3:8). Several times it was said of the Divine Messenger that he was the God of the ancestors of the Hebrews (Exodus 3:13, 15-16) and not only so but this Messenger who appeared as YHWH and God (Exodus 4:1; Exodus 5:3)

It is clear that the Divine Messenger (מלך יהוה) is somehow one with YHWH. Here the Messenger is clearly the deliverer of Israel and he is addressed as YHWH and acts as YHWH. We read elsewhere in Exodus that the Divine Messenger not only acts for God but is YHWH. God promised to send a Messenger with the people (Exodus 23:20). This Messenger was to be obeyed and had the authority to forgive sins. The reason is clear - he possesses the name and nature of YHWH (Exodus 23:21). The people must obey him and he will lead them into the promised land (Exodus 23:22-23). God states in Exodus 20:2 that he brought the people out of Egypt. We also read that it was the Divine Messenger who brought the people out (Judges 2:1). There is a mysterious oneness between YHWH and the Messenger.

The Elders of Israel saw God

“Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”

ויעל משה ואהרן נדב ואביהוא ושבעים מזקני ישראל ויראו את אלהי ישראל ותחת רגליו כמעשה לבנת הספיר וכעצם השמים לטהר ואל אצילי בני ישראל לא שלח ידו ויחזו את האלהים ויאכלו וישתו

(Exodus 24:9–11)

John 1:18 tells us that visible appearances of God were appearances of Jesus, the Divine Messenger in Tanakh.

Jacob wrestled with a man

Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak (Genesis 32:24). Jacob realised that the man he wrestled with was God (Genesis 32:30). This is explained in Hosea. The man is described as God (Hosea 12:3). In fact it was the Divine Messenger (Hosea 12:4) and this Messenger is revealed as YHWH (Hosea 12:5). At the end of Jacob's life he reflected when he blessed Joseph and equated the Divine Messenger with God (Gen. 49:15-16)

Wrong it was not the Father as you claimed it’s the Son

 

[Johann]

Wrong it was not the Father as you claimed it’s the Son

“Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”


The Divine Messenger appeared again (Judges 13:9). Manoah wanted the Messenger to stay and eat with them (Judges 13:15) but he did not know who the Divine Messenger was. The Messenger instead asked that they make a sacrifice to God (Judges 13:16). Manoah wanted to know who he was (Judges 13:17) but the Messenger told him that his name was beyond understanding - [פלא] (Judges 13:18) [a hint here of his divine nature]. In the next verse the Messenger is called YHWH and accepts the sacrifice (Judges 13:19) and the next verse explains what was happening. The Divine Messenger who is called YHWH, ascended in the sacrifice and this caused the couple to prostrate themselves before him and worship (Judges 13:20). It was at this point that Manoah recognised the Divine Messenger (Judges 13:21) and understood that they had been in the presence of God and seen YHWH (Judges 13:22). This is made certain by his wife's response when she described the Messenger as YHWH (Judges 13:23).

The unity of God is one of complexity. God is unseen and yet seen, omnipresent and yet localized. Not human and yet became human.

Exodus 33:20

וימר לא תוכל לראת את פני כי לא יראני האדם וחי

Genesis 32:30

ויקרא יכקב שם המקום פנישל כי ראיתי אלהים פנים ותנצל נפשי

Judges 6:22

וירא גדעון כי מלאך יהוה הוא ויאמר גדעון אהה אדני יהוה כי על כן ראיתי מלאך יהוה פנים ויאמר לו יהוה שלום לך

Exodus 24:10f

ויראו את אלהי ישרשל ותחת רגליו כמעשה לבנת הספיר וכעצם השמים לטהר ואל אצילי בני ישראל לא שלח ידו ויחזו את האלהים ויאכלו וישתו
Exodus 33:11

ידבר יהוה אל משה פנים כאשר ידבר איש אל רעהו

Exodus 3:6

ויאמר אנכי אלהי אביך אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב ויסתר משה פניו כי ירא מהביט אל האלהים

Genesis 16:13

ותקרא שם יהוה הדבר אליה אתה אל ראי כי אמרה הגם הלם ראיתי אחרי ראי

Judges 13:22

ויאמר מנוח אל אשתו מות נמות כי אלהים ראינו



Isaiah 6:1, 5

בשנת מות המלך עזיהו יאראה את אדני ישב על כסא רם ונשא ושוליו מלאים את ההיכל ואמר אוי לי כי נדמיתי כי איש טמא שפתים אנכי ובתוך עם טמא שפתים אנכי יושב כי את המלך יהוה צבאות ראו עינ

Gospel 101
J.

 

[civic]

nope the Father was never seen or heard. Jesus words are truth

 

[Diserner]

The point of "no one can see God and live," is not to say no one ever sees God.

But that we need to have a sacrificial death in Christ first as a Mediator.

Is is through Christ that we see God.

 

[civic]

The point of "no one can see God and live," is not to say no one ever sees God.

But that we need to have a sacrificial death in Christ first as a Mediator.

Is is through Christ that we see God.

Conflating again . Jesus never said no one can see God and live. You added to His words again

 

[Johann]

nope the Father was never seen or heard. Jesus words are truth

John 1:18 isn’t the only text which says that God cannot and has not been seen:

“But he added: ‘You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.’” Exodus 33:18-20

“which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:15-16*

“No one has seen God at any time. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.” 1 John 4:12

Yet this right away introduces a major problem since the Scriptures are quite clear that many have in fact seen Jehovah God, especially during the OT period. Case in point:

“Moses and Aaron, Na′dab and A·bi′hu, and 70 of the elders of Israel went up, and they saw the God of Israel. Under HIS FEET was what seemed like a sapphire pavement, and it was as pure as the heavens themselves. He did not harm the distinguished men of Israel, and they saw a vision of the true God and ate and drank.” Exodus 24:9-11

The phrase “a vision of” is not found in the inspired Hebrew text, which simply reads “also they saw the God” (wayyehezu 'et-ha'elohim). This fact can be easily seen from the very Bible versions which the Society makes available in their free JW Library Application, since none of them read the way the NWT does:

“Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: and they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.” Authorized King James Version (AV)

“Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and as it were the very heaven for clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: and they beheld God, and did eat and drink.” American Standard Version (ASV)

“And Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, went up, and they saw the God of Israel; and he had under his feet something like a sapphire tiling, like the very sky for purity; and to the representatives of the sons of Israel he did not put out his hand; and they gazed on God and ate and drank.” Steven Byington’s Bible in Living English (BYINGTON)

In fact, Jehovah himself stated that his servant Moses was given the privilege of actually seeing his form or similitude:

“He then said: ‘Hear my words, please. If there was a prophet of Jehovah among you, I would make myself known to him in a vision, and I would speak to him in a dream. But it is not that way with my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Face-to-face I speak to him, openly, not by riddles; and the appearance of Jehovah is what he sees. Why, then, did you not fear to speak against my servant, against Moses?’” Numbers 12:6-8

Besides, the Bible citations quoted by the Society do not say that no one can see God unless it is in a vision. Therefore, to try and argue that these individuals were seeing Jehovah in a vision doesn’t solve the problem since the texts quite clearly state that God cannot be seen whatsoever (at least according to the way the JWs’ understand and use these texts)!

Other examples of people seeing Jehovah visibly include the following:

“Mi·cai′ah then said: ‘Therefore, hear the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left. Jehovah then said, “Who will fool A′hab, so that he will go up and fall at Ra′moth-gil′e·ad?” And one was saying one thing while another said something else. Then a spirit came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, “How will you do it?” He replied, “I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.” So he said, “You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.” And now Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, but Jehovah has declared calamity for you.’” 1 Kings 22:19-23 – cf. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22

“In the year that King Uz·zi′ah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of HIS ROBE filled the temple. Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two. And one called to the other: ‘Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The whole earth is filled with his glory.’ And the pivots of the thresholds quivered at the sound of the shouting, and the house was filled with smoke. Then I said: ‘Woe to me! I am as good as dead, For I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies himself!’ At that, one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth and said: ‘Look! This has touched your lips. Your guilt is removed, And your sin is atoned for.’ Then I heard the voice of Jehovah saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?’ And I said: ‘Here I am! Send me!’ And he replied, ‘Go, and say to this people: “You will hear again and again, But you will not understand; You will see again and again, But you will not get any knowledge.” Make the heart of this people unreceptive, Make their ears unresponsive, And paste their eyes together, So that they may not see with their eyes And hear with their ears, So that their heart may not understand And they may not turn back and be healed.’” Isaiah 6:1-10

“There was a voice above the expanse over their heads. (When they stood still, they would let their wings down.) Above the expanse that was over their heads was what looked like a sapphire stone, and it resembled a throne. Sitting on the throne up above was someone whose appearance resembled that of a human. I saw something glowing like electrum that was like a fire radiating from what appeared to be his waist and upward; and from his waist down, I saw something that resembled fire. There was a brilliance all around him like that of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day. That was how the surrounding brilliant light appeared. It was like the appearance of the glory of Jehovah. When I saw it, I fell facedown and began to hear the voice of someone speaking. He then said to me: ‘Son of man, stand up on your feet that I may speak with you.’ When he spoke to me, spirit came into me and made me stand up on my feet so that I could hear the One speaking to me. He went on to say to me: ‘Son of man, I am sending you to the people of Israel, to rebellious nations that have rebelled against me. They and their forefathers have transgressed against me down to this very day. I am sending you to sons who are defiant and hardhearted, and you must say to them, “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says.” As for them, whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will certainly know that a prophet was among them.’” Ezekiel 1:25-28, 2:1-5

“I saw Jehovah stationed above the altar, and he said: ‘Strike the head of the pillar, and the thresholds will shake. Cut them off at the head, and I will kill the last of them with the sword. No one who flees will get away, and no one trying to escape will succeed.’” Amos 9:1



*Ironically, the Society interprets this text in reference to Christ, which means that he is the One whom the passage says no one has seen or can see!

Later-I'm tired.

 

[civic]

John 1:18 isn’t the only text which says that God cannot and has not been seen:

“But he added: ‘You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.’” Exodus 33:18-20

“which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:15-16*

“No one has seen God at any time. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.” 1 John 4:12

Yet this right away introduces a major problem since the Scriptures are quite clear that many have in fact seen Jehovah God, especially during the OT period. Case in point:

“Moses and Aaron, Na′dab and A·bi′hu, and 70 of the elders of Israel went up, and they saw the God of Israel. Under HIS FEET was what seemed like a sapphire pavement, and it was as pure as the heavens themselves. He did not harm the distinguished men of Israel, and they saw a vision of the true God and ate and drank.” Exodus 24:9-11

The phrase “a vision of” is not found in the inspired Hebrew text, which simply reads “also they saw the God” (wayyehezu 'et-ha'elohim). This fact can be easily seen from the very Bible versions which the Society makes available in their free JW Library Application, since none of them read the way the NWT does:

“Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: and they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.” Authorized King James Version (AV)

“Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and as it were the very heaven for clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: and they beheld God, and did eat and drink.” American Standard Version (ASV)

“And Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, went up, and they saw the God of Israel; and he had under his feet something like a sapphire tiling, like the very sky for purity; and to the representatives of the sons of Israel he did not put out his hand; and they gazed on God and ate and drank.” Steven Byington’s Bible in Living English (BYINGTON)

In fact, Jehovah himself stated that his servant Moses was given the privilege of actually seeing his form or similitude:

“He then said: ‘Hear my words, please. If there was a prophet of Jehovah among you, I would make myself known to him in a vision, and I would speak to him in a dream. But it is not that way with my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Face-to-face I speak to him, openly, not by riddles; and the appearance of Jehovah is what he sees. Why, then, did you not fear to speak against my servant, against Moses?’” Numbers 12:6-8

Besides, the Bible citations quoted by the Society do not say that no one can see God unless it is in a vision. Therefore, to try and argue that these individuals were seeing Jehovah in a vision doesn’t solve the problem since the texts quite clearly state that God cannot be seen whatsoever (at least according to the way the JWs’ understand and use these texts)!

Other examples of people seeing Jehovah visibly include the following:

“Mi·cai′ah then said: ‘Therefore, hear the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left. Jehovah then said, “Who will fool A′hab, so that he will go up and fall at Ra′moth-gil′e·ad?” And one was saying one thing while another said something else. Then a spirit came forward and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I will fool him.’ Jehovah asked him, “How will you do it?” He replied, “I will go out and become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.” So he said, “You will fool him, and what is more, you will be successful. Go out and do that.” And now Jehovah has put a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, but Jehovah has declared calamity for you.’” 1 Kings 22:19-23 – cf. 2 Chronicles 18:18-22

“In the year that King Uz·zi′ah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of HIS ROBE filled the temple. Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two. And one called to the other: ‘Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The whole earth is filled with his glory.’ And the pivots of the thresholds quivered at the sound of the shouting, and the house was filled with smoke. Then I said: ‘Woe to me! I am as good as dead, For I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies himself!’ At that, one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth and said: ‘Look! This has touched your lips. Your guilt is removed, And your sin is atoned for.’ Then I heard the voice of Jehovah saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?’ And I said: ‘Here I am! Send me!’ And he replied, ‘Go, and say to this people: “You will hear again and again, But you will not understand; You will see again and again, But you will not get any knowledge.” Make the heart of this people unreceptive, Make their ears unresponsive, And paste their eyes together, So that they may not see with their eyes And hear with their ears, So that their heart may not understand And they may not turn back and be healed.’” Isaiah 6:1-10

“There was a voice above the expanse over their heads. (When they stood still, they would let their wings down.) Above the expanse that was over their heads was what looked like a sapphire stone, and it resembled a throne. Sitting on the throne up above was someone whose appearance resembled that of a human. I saw something glowing like electrum that was like a fire radiating from what appeared to be his waist and upward; and from his waist down, I saw something that resembled fire. There was a brilliance all around him like that of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day. That was how the surrounding brilliant light appeared. It was like the appearance of the glory of Jehovah. When I saw it, I fell facedown and began to hear the voice of someone speaking. He then said to me: ‘Son of man, stand up on your feet that I may speak with you.’ When he spoke to me, spirit came into me and made me stand up on my feet so that I could hear the One speaking to me. He went on to say to me: ‘Son of man, I am sending you to the people of Israel, to rebellious nations that have rebelled against me. They and their forefathers have transgressed against me down to this very day. I am sending you to sons who are defiant and hardhearted, and you must say to them, “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says.” As for them, whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will certainly know that a prophet was among them.’” Ezekiel 1:25-28, 2:1-5

“I saw Jehovah stationed above the altar, and he said: ‘Strike the head of the pillar, and the thresholds will shake. Cut them off at the head, and I will kill the last of them with the sword. No one who flees will get away, and no one trying to escape will succeed.’” Amos 9:1



*Ironically, the Society interprets this text in reference to Christ, which means that he is the One whom the passage says no one has seen or can see!

Later-I'm tired.

Jesus said no man has seen the Father except the So .

Take it up with Jesus not me. It’s His authoritative words which are the truth, not your thoughts and the futile thoughts of other men.

I’ll go with Jesus behind door number 2 for all the money. You can choose the teachings of men for bankruptcy behind door number 1.

How was that for a word picture, analogy

Hope this helps !!!