I'd like to see the evidence that proves otherwise from the following post:
But the meaning is not necessarily the same in that Jesus always hears when one calls upon Him, Caesar doesn't - and didn't in that case.
Another prayer to Jesus.
Worshipping The Son
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
I'd like to see the evidence that proves otherwise from the following post:
But the meaning is not necessarily the same in that Jesus always hears when one calls upon Him, Caesar doesn't - and didn't in that case.
Another prayer to Jesus.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I want to make sure I understand you.
Are you saying that Stephen is praying to "God".... the "Lord Jesus Christ" here?
I agree that he is. Just making sure.
Complete
Well-known member
'When they heard these things,
they were cut to the heart,
and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost,
.. looked up stedfastly into heaven,
.... and saw the glory of God,
...... and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
........ And said," Behold, I see the heavens opened,
.......... and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
Then they cried out with a loud voice,
.. and stopped their ears,
.... and ran upon him with one accord,
...... And cast him out of the city,
........ and stoned him:
.......... and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
............ And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God,
.............. and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
................ And he kneeled down,
.................. and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge."
.................... And when he had said this, he fell asleep.'
(Act 7:54-60)
Hello @praise_yeshua,
Stephen saw the Lord, standing at God's right hand, and called upon and invoked the Lord. 'Lord Jesus receive my spirit'. Christ Jesus the risen Lord, His Advocate. Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Matthias
Well-known member
It’s for sure and certain that Stephen saw a resurrected human person standing at God’s right hand.
It’s for sure and certain that Stephen saw Jesus standing at God’s right hand.
It’s for sure and certain that Stephen saw Jesus standing at Yahweh’s right hand.
It’s for sure and certain that Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
It’s for sure and certain that Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father.
It’s for sure and certain that Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of his God.
It’s for sure and certain that Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the only God who exists.
It's for sure and certain that Stephen prayed to Jesus which demonstrates Stephen believed Jesus is God/YHWH.
@Matthias, here is my analysis of Luke 2:11. You're right, σωτὴρ is Savior, not "a Savior".
Jesus is uniquely our Savior and since only God saves then only the Trinitarian Jesus, who is God, is the true Jesus.
Luke 2:11 ὅτι ἐτέχθη ὑμῖν σήμερον σωτὴρ, ὅς ἐστι Χριστὸς Κύριος, ἐν πόλει Δαυΐδ.
Translated word for word, Luke 2:11 comes out as: For born to you today Savior, who is Christ Lord, in city David.
Johann
Well-known member
"Savior" This title was used of YHWH in the OT (cf. Luke 1:47; Isa. 43:3,11; 45:15,21; 49:26; 60:16). In the Roman Empire it was used of Caesar. The word in Hebrew means "deliverer" (BDB 446) and is part of the name of Jesus (i.e., Hosea, BDB 448). This and 1:47 are surprisingly the only use of this term in the Synoptic Gospels.
The fact that Jesus the carpenter from Nazareth is called by two major OT titles of YHWH (Savior and Lord) is striking. When you add the title Messiah (Christ), it is obvious that Luke is piling affirmation on affirmation of the deity of Jesus. The Synoptics, especially Mark, tend to hide Jesus' deity until the end. John clearly and forcefully asserts Jesus' pre-existence and deity in John 1:1-18. Luke, by using these titles, sets the theological stage for Gentiles (the audience for both John's and Luke's Gospels) to comprehend who Jesus was/is.
DavidTree
Well-known member
How is it possible that 'they' cannot SEE this = Revelation chapter 5
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders,
stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And (YOU) have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”(because of YOU/JESUS)
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
14Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him/Jesus who lives forever and ever.
Complete
Well-known member
'And I fell at his feet to worship him.
And he said unto me, See thou do it not:
.. I am thy fellowservant,
.... and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus:
...... worship God:
for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'
(Rev 19:10)
Hello @praise_yeshua,
This was the Angel of the Lord speaking, wasn't it? Angels, as we know, are not to be worshipped.
'Let no man beguile you of your reward
in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels,
intruding into those things which he hath not seen,
vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,'
(Col 2:18)
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Correct. Which establishes the fact that Christ would have resisted others worshipping Him. Christ didn't. He accepted worship.
civic
Well-known member
FYI- The Angel of the Lord in the OT was the pre incarnate Son which is why He is identified as YHWH and worshiped as God unlike the created angels who are not worshiped.
Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."
Exodus 3:2, 5
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”
Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."
13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."
14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."
19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"
23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."
24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."
27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.
28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
Hope this helps !!!
Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."
Exodus 3:2, 5
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”
Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."
13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."
14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"
15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."
16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."
17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."
19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"
23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."
24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."
27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.
28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!
Hope this helps !!!
DavidTree
Well-known member
FYI: JESUS is not an angel and never was.
FYI: the WORD was never created
FYI: JESUS stands in the midst of the Throne = ONLY ELOHIM is permitted in the "midst of the THRONE'
FYI: JESUS is to be worshipped just as His Father is to be worshipped = They share the THRONE
civic
Well-known member
Correct
The Angel of the Lord in the OT is identified as YHWH and worshiped as God.
Johann
Well-known member
What is fascinating is that THE Angel of YHVH is none other than Jesus Christ.
DavidTree
Well-known member
YES, but HE is not an angel but rather the MESSENGER of the FATHER
Angels are also messengers of ELOHIM
We, as fellow citizens of the Household of God are also Messengers = "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the Gospel"
civic
Well-known member
Bingo
Johann
Well-known member
Guess you missed the Definite Article-no problem.
1Co 10:1 [I do not want But] you to be ignorant, brethren, but know that our fathers all [under the cloud were], and all [through the sea went],
1Co 10:2 and all unto Moses were immersed in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3 and all [the same food spiritual ate],
1Co 10:4 and all [the same drink spiritual drank]; for they drank from a spiritual [following rock], and the rock was the Christ.
1Co 10:5 But not with the most of them did [think well of God]; for they were prostrated in the wilderness.
1Co 10:4 And all of the same spiritual drink drank, for they were drinking from a spiritual TZUR following them [SHEMOT 17:6; BAMIDBAR 20:11; TEHILLIM 78:15; 105:41], and that TZUR was Moshiach.
Johann
Well-known member
Jesus and the Angel of YHWH
The New Testament identifies Jesus as the Angel. Remember, an angel is one who is sent without reference to the nature of the one sent.
When 1 Corinthians 10:1 is compared with Exodus 13:21, and Exodus 14:19, 24 the Angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. It goes on to say that '...at the morning watch, YHWH looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud...'
Numbers 14:14 says that it was YHWH who was among the people. And Psalm 78:14 says that '...he led them with the cloud by day and all the night with a light of fire.'
It was the Angel who accompanied the nation and the New Testament says that it was the Messiah who accompanied them. He was their spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 10:4) The association seems clear:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 and Deuteronomy 32:15, 18
Jude 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus*, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
* The reading Ἰησοῦς/Jesus [enjoys] ...the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg)... The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).)
Exodus 12:51 says that YHWH brought the people out of Egypt and yet...
Judges 2:1 says that the Angel of YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt
And 1 Corinthians 10:4-5, 9 says 'all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Messiah. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.... We must not put *Messiah/Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents.'
* Χριστόν (Christon, “Christ”) is attested in the majority of MSS, including many important witnesses of the Alexandrian (𝔓46 1739 1881) and Western (D F G) textvtypes, and other MSS and versions (Ψ latt sy co). The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).
Numbers 26:65 For YHWH had said of them, “They shall die in the wilderness.” Not one of them was left, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.
John 8:58
“εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.” (John 8:58)
הֵשִׁיב לָהֶם יֵשׁוּעַ׃ ״אָמֵן אָמֵן אֲנִי אוֹמֵר לָכֶם, בְּטֶרֶם הֱיוֹת אַבְרָהָם, אֲנִי הוּא.<\p>
"So the Judeans said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." The lead up to his statement is this:
“So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.”” (John 8:19) “And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.” (John 8:23) ““I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”” (John 8:38)
Jesus took their statement to another level. Not only had he seen Abraham but he was in existence not just before Abraham (which would read ἤμην - ‘I was’) but eternally ‘ἐγὼ εἰμί’. Notice that their response was to pick up stones to throw at him just as in John 10:31 where we are explicitly told their response was to his perceived blasphemy “For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”
What does Torah say about blasphemy? “‘Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him...” (Leviticus 24:16).
So in John 8:59 their response to his claim was to try and stone him.
John 8:58 reads '...πρὶν (before) Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (was/existed) ἐγὼ εἰμί (I myself am/exist).'
The Greek version (LXX) of the Torah (circa 250 BC) translates "אני הוא" in Deuteronomy 32:39 as "‘See now that I am (ἐγώ εἰμι), And there is no god besides Me..." Isaiah 41:4 "‘I, יהוה , am the first, and with the last. I am he (ἐγώ εἰμι)’ "
Shalom.
civic
Well-known member
The Angel of the Lord is different from the Rock. Just as the serpent Moses lifted up is different from the Rock and the angel of the Lord.
