Matthias
Well-known member
I learned from people who are more knowledgeable on the subject than you are. I don’t think you can teach me anything more about the doctrine of the Trinity than they did.
Worshipping The Son
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
I learned from people who are more knowledgeable on the subject than you are. I don’t think you can teach me anything more about the doctrine of the Trinity than they did.
Matthias
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Nothing and I mean nothing can represent God. He is not created so nothing created can perfectly represent God. God makes that crystal clear in Job 38 with the rhetorical question as to what shall you compare YHWH too ?They weren’t wrong. You used an analogy which any trinitarian worth his salt knows teaches modalism, not trinitarianism.
"The Trinity is Like 3-in-1 Shampoo". . . And Other Stupid Statements - Credo House Ministries
Alternate title: “Trinitarian Heresy 101” “The doctrine of the Trinity is like an egg: three parts, one thing.” Ever heard that? How about this, “The doctrine of the Trinity is like a three leaf clover: three leaves, one clover.” Or how about THIS, “The doctrine of the Trinity is like water...credohouse.org
Every comparison breaks down. As good intentioned as they may be they all fail miserably.
hope this helps !!!
APAK
Active member
The philosophical pagan Godman - Origen, origin indeed...
from one source ....
Pharos Journal of Theology ISSN 2414-3324 online Volume 100 - (2019)Copyright: ©2018 Open Access/Author/s - Online @ http//: www.pharosjot.com1Jesus the Christ: Truly the Theanthropos
Prof. A . Nicolaides University of South Africa
Graduate School of Business Leadership Midrand, South Africa
"....The first use of the term as a theological idea appears in the writing of the 3rd century Early Church Father Origen (Origen, De Principiis) who says: “This substance of asoul, then, being intermediate between God and the flesh – it being impossible for the natureof God to intermingle with a body without an intermediate instrument – the God-man is born.”(Origen, De Principiis). It was ultimately at The Council of Chalcedon (451 CE,) where it was confirmed that Jesus Christ had two natures, one human and one divine which were linked to one another in hypostatic union..."
Trinityspeak....
...another source.....not that I really trust it at all..
en.wikipedia.org
"The first usage of the term "God-man" as a theological concept appears in the writing of the 3rd-century Church Father Origen:[2]
This substance of a soul, then, being intermediate between God and the flesh – it being impossible for the nature of God to intermingle with a body without an intermediate instrument – the God-man is born.[3]"
God man, another import of pagan Greek mythology I'm afraid as poison into the veins of Christology and what would later become or called Orthodox Christianity.
from one source ....
Pharos Journal of Theology ISSN 2414-3324 online Volume 100 - (2019)Copyright: ©2018 Open Access/Author/s - Online @ http//: www.pharosjot.com1Jesus the Christ: Truly the Theanthropos
Prof. A . Nicolaides University of South Africa
Graduate School of Business Leadership Midrand, South Africa
"....The first use of the term as a theological idea appears in the writing of the 3rd century Early Church Father Origen (Origen, De Principiis) who says: “This substance of asoul, then, being intermediate between God and the flesh – it being impossible for the natureof God to intermingle with a body without an intermediate instrument – the God-man is born.”(Origen, De Principiis). It was ultimately at The Council of Chalcedon (451 CE,) where it was confirmed that Jesus Christ had two natures, one human and one divine which were linked to one another in hypostatic union..."
Trinityspeak....
...another source.....not that I really trust it at all..
God-man (Christianity) - Wikipedia
"The first usage of the term "God-man" as a theological concept appears in the writing of the 3rd-century Church Father Origen:[2]
This substance of a soul, then, being intermediate between God and the flesh – it being impossible for the nature of God to intermingle with a body without an intermediate instrument – the God-man is born.[3]"
God man, another import of pagan Greek mythology I'm afraid as poison into the veins of Christology and what would later become or called Orthodox Christianity.
Matthias
Well-known member
The philosophical pagan Godman - Origen, origin indeed...
from one source ....
Pharos Journal of Theology ISSN 2414-3324 online Volume 100 - (2019)Copyright: ©2018 Open Access/Author/s - Online @ http//: www.pharosjot.com1Jesus the Christ: Truly the Theanthropos
Prof. A . Nicolaides University of South Africa
Graduate School of Business Leadership Midrand, South Africa
"....The first use of the term as a theological idea appears in the writing of the 3rd century Early Church Father Origen (Origen, De Principiis) who says: “This substance of asoul, then, being intermediate between God and the flesh – it being impossible for the natureof God to intermingle with a body without an intermediate instrument – the God-man is born.”(Origen, De Principiis). It was ultimately at The Council of Chalcedon (451 CE,) where it was confirmed that Jesus Christ had two natures, one human and one divine which were linked to one another in hypostatic union..."
Trinityspeak....
...another source.....not that I really trust it at all..
God-man (Christianity) - Wikipedia
"The first usage of the term "God-man" as a theological concept appears in the writing of the 3rd-century Church Father Origen:[2]
This substance of a soul, then, being intermediate between God and the flesh – it being impossible for the nature of God to intermingle with a body without an intermediate instrument – the God-man is born.[3]"
God man, another import of pagan Greek mythology I'm afraid as poison into the veins of Christology and what would later become or called Orthodox Christianity.
Thanks.
For anyone who is interested (maybe even @praise_yeshua will change his mind), here is a link to the paper which I was alluding to (and you quoted from. I couldn’t get your link to work.)
Matthias
Well-known member
My trinitarian professors were wise in regard to this matter. Unfortunately, trinitarians (and sometimes non-trinitarians) use them anyway. It never ends well when they do.
The fact remains that "I Am" is God's name that is used by God for God as His name. Robert expects us to somehow fork over God's name to a unitarian person without so much as an afterthought. Robert takes huge liberties in concocting his own narrative.
I sense and hear the Father's God-nature in Jesus. Don't you sense that?
That's good to know.
Last edited:
Matthias
Well-known member
“… it’s own conception of the Trinity was looked upon by the Fathers themselves as a combination of Jewish monotheism and pagan polytheism, except to them this combination was a good combination; in fact, it was to them an ideal combination of what is best in Jewish monotheism and of what is best in pagan polytheism, and consequently they gloried in it and pointed to it as evidence of the truth of their belief. We have on this the testimony of Gregory of Nyssa - one of the great figures in the history of the philosophic formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity - and his words are repeated by John of Damascus - the last of the Church Fathers.
The Christian conception of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true, for ‘the truth passes in the mean between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy, and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each. The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating this imagination of plurality.’ As restated by John of Damascus, this ideal combination in Christianity of what is best in Judaism and paganism reads as follows: ‘On the one hand, of the Jewish idea we have the unity of God’s nature, and, on the other, of the Greek, we have the distinction of hypostases, and that only.’”
(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy Of The Church Fathers: Faith, Trinity, Incarnation, Vol.1, Second Edition Revised, pp. 362-363)
Jesus of Nazareth. 1st century Jewish monotheist.
I wonder what he thinks about about what they did to his Jewish monotheism.
Destroying it, and combining it with pagan polytheism -> behold, the doctrine of the Trinity.
That should be a red flag to trinitarians. Experience tells me that it won’t be.
The Christian conception of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true, for ‘the truth passes in the mean between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy, and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each. The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating this imagination of plurality.’ As restated by John of Damascus, this ideal combination in Christianity of what is best in Judaism and paganism reads as follows: ‘On the one hand, of the Jewish idea we have the unity of God’s nature, and, on the other, of the Greek, we have the distinction of hypostases, and that only.’”
(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy Of The Church Fathers: Faith, Trinity, Incarnation, Vol.1, Second Edition Revised, pp. 362-363)
Jesus of Nazareth. 1st century Jewish monotheist.
I wonder what he thinks about about what they did to his Jewish monotheism.
Destroying it, and combining it with pagan polytheism -> behold, the doctrine of the Trinity.
That should be a red flag to trinitarians. Experience tells me that it won’t be.
Last edited:
Matthias
Well-known member
He doesn’t. On the contrary, he rightly shows us that the “I am” statements made by Jesus in John’s Gospel lead to John’s purpose statement in John 20:28 - “but these were written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in his name.”
ego eimi - a common Greek phrase -> “I am [he]“; not, “I Am”
When I see and hear Jesus, I see and hear my God in him.
Last edited:
Matthias
Well-known member
“They [the NT writers] give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated.”
(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. xvi)
Bold is mine.
I selected this quotation because it contains the term “elemental trinitarianism”. Reading this book was the first time I had heard the term.
Quick story. Years ago someone posted a thread on an Internet discussion forum which has since gone the way of the Dodo birds. Because I had expressed agreement with Fortman’s statement about elemental trinitarianism, a foolish trinitarian started a thread about me, with the purpose of denigrating me, claiming that I was a closet trinitarian.
(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. xvi)
Bold is mine.
I selected this quotation because it contains the term “elemental trinitarianism”. Reading this book was the first time I had heard the term.
Quick story. Years ago someone posted a thread on an Internet discussion forum which has since gone the way of the Dodo birds. Because I had expressed agreement with Fortman’s statement about elemental trinitarianism, a foolish trinitarian started a thread about me, with the purpose of denigrating me, claiming that I was a closet trinitarian.
Here is John 20:28-29:
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Excellent verses for proving that Jesus is God. I sincerely hope that he's your God too. And these verses are the perfect lead into John's purpose verse you mentioned. Thank you for mentioning them.
He is My Lord and my God!”
Matthias
Well-known member
Proving, from my perspective, that Jesus is God’s shaliah, not that he is God himself, nor the second person of the Triune God.
Like Thomas and Jesus, I’m a Jewish monotheist. Our God is the Father alone.
The OT and NT shows us through Theophanies and explicit statements from the Apostles and from Jesus himself that he is the Uncreated Word of God who became flesh.
Matthias
Well-known member
“Many of the sacred writers spoke of a Messiah who was to be Yahweh’s agent in establishing the kingdom of Yahweh in the messianic age. However, they regarded the Messiah not as a divine person but as a creature, a charismatic leader, a Davidic king.
Thus the Old Testament writings about God neither express nor imply any idea of or belief in a plurality or trinity of persons within the one Godhead. Even to see in them suggestions or foreshadowing or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”
(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 9)
Thus the Old Testament writings about God neither express nor imply any idea of or belief in a plurality or trinity of persons within the one Godhead. Even to see in them suggestions or foreshadowing or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”
(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 9)
Matthias
Well-known member
That’s what I thought when I was a trinitarian. I no longer think that.
Do they often quote scripture?
This to me is the Bible's biggest and most important question for everyone:
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Everyone needs to be very careful how they answer that question.
Matthias
Well-known member
“For them [the NT writers], too, there is only one God, the creator and lord of the universe; and He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the Heavenly Father, but more especially, the Father of Jesus.”
(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 31)
(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 31)
