"Works Salvation"

[praise_yeshua]

Let's make a deal, you teach me technology and I'll teach you theology..... the doctrines of the word of God, because you surely need help, even if you think you do not ~ technology is not my strong point, I freely admit. If you do not have time to teach me, one of my grandson's who finished at Georgia Tech can since he's computer specialist engineer guru on a genius level ~ and I still will help you.

I can handle both. I completely manage IT systems for multiple companies that generate hundreds of millions of dollars a year in revenue. Which was once BILLIONS. I've literally built most of these systems myself. I have for close to 30 years. I don't like to boast.

I'm sure your grandson is competent but feel free to have him ask a question that he thinks I don't know......

Theology is my "coping mechanism" for the stress I've handled over those years. I've been successful in life and in business but it doesn't really matter to me. What is needful for people is to know humility. I haven't completely learned that lesson yet but it is necessary to resist your mistakes to the point you meaningfully find humility.

Next time you see your grandson, ask him what SNAT is, who developed it, and why it was developed. You can ask AI the question and get "half an answer". We'll see if he knows the other half....

 

[Dizerner]

Rick click on post number, select copy link.

 

[atpollard]

do you agree with this article from Got ? on what is heresy

Baptists have a long and until the 20th Century almost unbroken track record of being persecuted, arrested, beaten and martyred by "State Churches" for HERESY. Given the many THOUSANDS that have been murdered for adhering to the Bible over Church Creeds (the core of the Baptist movement), accusations of "heretic" are something that I cannot and do not take lightly.

It is the first step towards "anathema" and "murder" and those that hold me to be a HERETIC (which typically carries far stronger connotations than you and "Got ?" are attempting to paint it) are not "brothers and sisters" of mine ... they go on IGNORE.

What does SCRIPTURE command us concerning heresy and heretics?

• To separate and have nothing to do with them.

[As an aside, by your dictionary definition, the RCC is heretical starting from where it broke with the rest of the ORTHODOX Church in the Great Schism, thus there was no claim to Orthodoxy from Rome.] That is why most reasonable people use the Ecumenical Creeds as the 'touchstone' for "orthodox" vs 'heretical" (and Monergism does not violate any Ecumenical Creed).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sorry, but there is a third choice (Heterodox).

I find accusations of HERESY sufficiently offensive that it is grounds to break fellowship.
All communication is terminated effective immediately.
You are commanded to have nothing to do with a Heretic.

Goodbye.

The big problem with the use of terms like "heretic" or "heresy", my sister @GodsGrace and brothers @atpollard and @civic, is that it has more than a merely academic meaning. The Bible states that heretics won't get into heaven. They are counted among murderers, adulterers, etc.

When we study the concerns of the apostles around heresy or heretics, we discover that they spent 90% of their "ink and time" in pointing out to the immorality, the evil deeds that such heresies led to. They spent only 10% in fighting their arguments with counterarguments. It was not their wrong theory, but the practical results of their wrong theory what they were interested in.
I can provide the biblical passages if you are interested.

So, I recommend to follow the apostolic example and condemn heresies for their ability to induce people to practice evil things, things that are contrary to the fruits of the spirit.

With this "working definition" in mind, we achieve three things

• We avoid the slippery slope of declaring doctrinal mistakes as heresies. If we follow that slippery slope, we will end up considering heretic everyone else in our family, workplace, school or in this Forum.
• Our brother or sister will not feel damned by any of us to external destruction / torture for what he/she believes. A debate can easily turn into a show of arrogance ("since I understand the Scriptures better than you, I will get a reward infinitely better than yours").
• We avoid falling in the temptation of an orthodoxy-based salvation, which is opposed to a grace-based salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

The big problem with the use of terms like "heretic" or "heresy", my sister @GodsGrace and brothers @atpollard and @civic, is that it has more than a merely academic meaning. The Bible states that heretics won't get into heaven. They are counted among murderers, adulterers, etc.

I'm happy that you added @civic and @atpollard to this conversation.

I don't know what other method to use as to the meaning of words other than the academic meaning.
which we should ALL AGREE ON.

There should be no problem in using the word HERETICAL for 2 reasons:
1. It has a specific meaning.
2. I gave a definition of it when stating my position so as not to create confusion.

There's a possible 3rd reason and that's that I've known Atpollard a few years now and he should know better than to think
I'd insult person. I never do that but confine my comments to biblical scripture/theology, etc.

When we study the concerns of the apostles around heresy or heretics, we discover that they spent 90% of their "ink and time" in pointing out to the immorality, the evil deeds that such heresies led to.

I don't know that I can agree with this, although, yes, some heresies did lead to immoral behavior. Gnostics believed it was OK to do practically anything because the spirit is separate from the physical.

I'd say that the church used the word HERESY in exactly the same way we should be using it today....
a teaching that is not orthodox...a teaching that does not align itself with mainline teachings of the Christian church.
For instance....the early church believed Jesus is God.
Arius taught that Jesus was NOT God.
This was a heretical teaching.

They spent only 10% in fighting their arguments with counterarguments. It was not their wrong theory, but the practical results of their wrong theory what they were interested in.
I can provide the biblical passages if you are interested.

I'm not interested in biblical passages.....
I agree here.
I'm speaking of AFTER the book of Acts.
History did continue, right?

The fight to keep heresies out of the church went on for at least 2 hundred years after Jesus ascended.

So, I recommend to follow the apostolic example and condemn heresies for their ability to induce people to practice evil things, things that are contrary to the fruits of the spirit.

This is not the meaning of the word HERESY.
The reformed/Calvinist do not do evil deeds...they are among the more obedient Christians.

With this "working definition" in mind, we achieve three things

• We avoid the slippery slope of declaring doctrinal mistakes as heresies. If we follow that slippery slope, we will end up considering heretic everyone else in our family, workplace, school or in this Forum.

I never said a PERSON is heretical...that's not my job.
I say that DOCTRINE could be heretical...and I'll always state why.

• Our brother or sister will not feel damned by any of us to external destruction / torture for what he/she believes. A debate can easily turn into a show of arrogance ("since I understand the Scriptures better than you, I will get a reward infinitely better than yours").

Actually, I get this a lot from the reformed....
They feel better than other Christians because they have the ability to accept this God that they worship and we just cannot.
This causes arrogance and pride....to be among the chosen few.
This is a known fact. Some top reformed theologians have stated this.
I could look up the info if you need it.
It is, however, common knowledge.

• We avoid falling in the temptation of an orthodoxy-based salvation, which is opposed to a grace-based salvation.

Pancho....I believe soteriology should be orthodox.
Grace salvation IS ORTHODOX.
Christianity was created, beginning with Christ, over 2 thousand years ago.
It cannot be changed.
Calvinism began in the 1800's.
It is diametrically opposed to all other denominational teachings.
It is heretical.

 

[GodsGrace]

The big problem with the use of terms like "heretic" or "heresy", my sister @GodsGrace and brothers @atpollard and @civic, is that it has more than a merely academic meaning. The Bible states that heretics won't get into heaven. They are counted among murderers, adulterers, etc.

When we study the concerns of the apostles around heresy or heretics, we discover that they spent 90% of their "ink and time" in pointing out to the immorality, the evil deeds that such heresies led to. They spent only 10% in fighting their arguments with counterarguments. It was not their wrong theory, but the practical results of their wrong theory what they were interested in.
I can provide the biblical passages if you are interested.

So, I recommend to follow the apostolic example and condemn heresies for their ability to induce people to practice evil things, things that are contrary to the fruits of the spirit.

With this "working definition" in mind, we achieve three things

• We avoid the slippery slope of declaring doctrinal mistakes as heresies. If we follow that slippery slope, we will end up considering heretic everyone else in our family, workplace, school or in this Forum.
• Our brother or sister will not feel damned by any of us to external destruction / torture for what he/she believes. A debate can easily turn into a show of arrogance ("since I understand the Scriptures better than you, I will get a reward infinitely better than yours").
• We avoid falling in the temptation of an orthodoxy-based salvation, which is opposed to a grace-based salvation.

I happened to see post no. 1872 ....
Did YOU notice it?

 

[Seabass]

Grace ambassador was attempting to be gracious, I'll not be so gracious toward heretics corrupting the gospel of Jesus Christ by their work gospel, but will treat such men just as Paul did.

Galatians 5:12​

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.” Again and even more forceful:

Galatians 1:0
"As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Wrong of both account Mr. Work Monger.

Your lack of understanding of the BIble and refusal to accept the fact works of merit and obedience are two different things does not make other people wrong, it simply makes you wrong.

Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16-18; 2 Thess 1:8 all require obedience in order to be saved/justified. Nowhere does the BIble give an example of disobedient people being UNconditionally justified for no particular reason.

Was Noah a 'work monger' when he obediently built the ark as God commanded?
Noah's salvation from the flood was a matter of grace, therefore his obedient work earned him NOTHING. If his obedience was a work of merit, then God owed him salvation from the flood and you rip grace out of the context. Each and every time a faith onlyists calls obedience a work of merit they are ripping grace from the Bible.

Paul said that you are a liar, and a false teacher of the word of God. Jesus Christ is the surety of God's elect, he alone secured eternal redemption for each and every elect child of God given to him of his Father to saved from sin and condemnation by his faith and obedience, since all men born through Adam's posterity are without strength to do one thing to secure their salvation from sin and its condemnation. Your work gospel frustrates and makes void the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and puts it almost out of the gospel message of God's free grace.

Galatians 2:21
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

1st Corinthians 4:7
"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

Paul himself said "obedience UNTO righteousness". Paul points out in Rom 6:16 we are all serving either one of two masters, we are all serving either;
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
or
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

I serve obedience unto righteousness. The falseteaching of faith onlyism rejects the plain teaching of obedience unto righteousness leaving only one master for faith onlyism to serve...sin unto death.

 

[Seabass]

Hey Seabass
Not possible that I posted RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE.
Because I agree with you that we must continue with good works.
You're getting me mixed up with a faith only person.

Of course.

I have mentioned grace to you but you haven't responded to the post.
No matter.

Here's how grace works:
We obey the gospel, or somehow become saved.

This was accomplished by the necessary amount of grace that God gives to EVERYONE so that they know of His existence.
I had mentioned Romans 1:19----

As a person grows in faith, he obeys God.
God then gives to this person MORE GRACE as is needed.

And this continues ad infinitum.

If a person does not obey God,,,he has squandered some grace....
but God will always give that person more as is needed.

grace is a free gift of God but it is a conditional gift....only those who conditionally obey God are the ones who receive grace and must continue to obey God to continually receive grace. If the Christian does not continue to obey God then they 'received the grace of God in vain' 2 Cor 6:1.

--there is no example of anyone in the NT of receiving grace BEFORE they humbly submit to God's will

Rom 1:18 the unrighteous will face God's wrath for they (Gentiles) 'hindered the truth'. The Gentiles were not ignorant of God's law but tried to stop it with ungodly living, they tried to keep down the truth of God which they knew by unrighteous living.

Rom 1:19 God's wrath is coming against them, not due to ignorance for they knew God's law, but for their refused to keep it. The Gentiles knew God exist by His creation v20 (not by grace unconditionally given them) therefore those Gentiles were without excuse for their ungodliness and cannot claim God hide Himself from them when God manifested himself to them in His physical creation of the world.

the idea of a 'sinner saved by grace' is totally unbiblical for sinners are those who have NOT obeyed God therefore sinners are lost having not received grace. Christians are the ones saved by grace for it is Christians who have already complied with God's will. Paul's point in Rom 6:1-6f is because Christians are saved by grace does not give the Christian a license to sin. Christians are to have 'obedience unto righteousness" to continue to receive grace for if the Christian quits obeying he will then be serving sin unto death.

since sin is transgression of God's law the only solution for sin is obedience to God's law to keep one from serving sin unto death. Hence salvation requires God's grace but also requires man's obedience to receive GOd's grace...synergism. Salvation is not, never has been by grace alone as some falsely contend.

 

[Johann]

Salvation is not, never has been by grace alone as some falsely contend.

Salvation is a Gift, Not Earned by Works

Ephesians 2:8-9
"Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται."
(For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not from works, so that no one may boast.)

The phrase "τῇ γὰρ χάριτί" (by grace) establishes that salvation is solely the result of God’s unmerited favor.

The phrase "οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν" (not from yourselves) explicitly denies that human effort plays any role in obtaining salvation.

The phrase "οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων" (not from works) completely excludes human obedience as a contributing factor to justification.

Thus, salvation is by grace alone, not a mixture of grace and works (synergism).

2. Justification is by Faith Apart from Works

Romans 3:24
"δικαιούμενοι δωρεὰν τῇ αὐτοῦ χάριτι διὰ τῆς ἀπολυτρώσεως τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ."
(Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.)

The word "δωρεὰν" (dorean, “freely” or “without cost”) emphasizes that justification is a gift, not a reward for obedience.
The phrase "τῇ αὐτοῦ χάριτι" (by His grace) affirms that salvation is an act of God’s undeserved kindness, not something earned.
Paul further strengthens this point in Romans 4:4-5:

"Τῷ δὲ ἐργαζομένῳ ὁ μισθὸς οὐ λογίζεται κατὰ χάριν ἀλλὰ κατὰ ὀφείλημα· τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐργαζομένῳ, πιστεύοντι δὲ ἐπὶ τὸν δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἀσεβῆ, λογίζεται ἡ πίστις αὐτοῦ εἰς δικαιοσύνην."

(Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.)

If salvation were based on works, grace would cease to be grace because a wage is something owed (Romans 11:6).

Paul states that justification is given to “the one who does not work” (τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐργαζομένῳ), demonstrating that faith alone receives justification.
This directly refutes the claim that salvation is not by grace alone.

3. Grace and Works Are Mutually Exclusive in Justification
Romans 11:6
"Εἰ δὲ χάριτι, οὐκέτι ἐξ ἔργων, ἐπεὶ ἡ χάρις οὐκέτι γίνεται χάρις· εἰ δὲ ἐξ ἔργων, οὐκέτι ἐστὶ χάρις, ἐπεὶ τὸ ἔργον οὐκέτι ἐστὶν ἔργον."
(If by grace, then it is no longer by works; otherwise, grace is no longer grace. But if it is by works, it is no longer grace; otherwise, work is no longer work.)

Paul presents a binary contrast: If salvation is by grace, then works play no role in it; otherwise, grace ceases to be grace.
If one argues that salvation involves human obedience, then grace is nullified, and salvation becomes a wage instead of a gift.
Thus, any attempt to add human effort to grace destroys the very nature of grace.

4. Salvation is Not By Law-Keeping or Human Obedience
Galatians 2:16
"εἰδότες ὅτι οὐ δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἔργων νόμου ἐὰν μὴ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν ἐπιστεύσαμεν, ἵνα δικαιωθῶμεν ἐκ πίστεως Χριστοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων νόμου, ὅτι ἐξ ἔργων νόμου οὐ δικαιωθήσεται πᾶσα σάρξ."
(Knowing that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no flesh will be justified.)

"οὐ δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἔργων νόμου" (A man is not justified by works of the law). Paul completely rejects the idea that obedience plays any role in justification.
Instead, justification is entirely by faith apart from human merit.
Paul rebukes the Galatians for mixing grace and obedience, saying:
"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3)

This directly refutes synergism, which tries to combine grace and obedience.

5. What About Obedience? The Proper Place of Works
While justification is by grace alone through faith alone, good works follow salvation as the fruit of faith.
Ephesians 2:10 clarifies:
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Works are the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
James 2:14-26 teaches that true faith produces works, but does not state that works play any role in receiving salvation.
Thus, obedience is evidence of salvation, not the means of obtaining it.

Conclusion: Salvation is by Grace Alone
Your claim that “salvation is not, never has been by grace alone” is demonstrably false because-

Ephesians 2:8-9 explicitly states that salvation is by grace through faith, not by works.
Romans 3:24 and 4:4-5 confirm that justification is a free gift, apart from human obedience.
Romans 11:6 shows that grace and works are mutually exclusive in justification.
Galatians 2:16 explicitly denies that justification is by obedience to God's law.
Obedience is a result of salvation (Ephesians 2:10), not a requirement for receiving grace.
The biblical doctrine is sola gratia—salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from any human effort or merit.

J.

 

[Seabass]

Salvation is a Gift, Not Earned by Works

Ephesians 2:8-9
"Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται."
(For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not from works, so that no one may boast.)

The phrase "τῇ γὰρ χάριτί" (by grace) establishes that salvation is solely the result of God’s unmerited favor.

The phrase "οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν" (not from yourselves) explicitly denies that human effort plays any role in obtaining salvation.

The phrase "οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων" (not from works) completely excludes human obedience as a contributing factor to justification.

Thus, salvation is by grace alone, not a mixture of grace and works (synergism).

2. Justification is by Faith Apart from Works

Romans 3:24
"δικαιούμενοι δωρεὰν τῇ αὐτοῦ χάριτι διὰ τῆς ἀπολυτρώσεως τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ."
(Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.)

The word "δωρεὰν" (dorean, “freely” or “without cost”) emphasizes that justification is a gift, not a reward for obedience.
The phrase "τῇ αὐτοῦ χάριτι" (by His grace) affirms that salvation is an act of God’s undeserved kindness, not something earned.
Paul further strengthens this point in Romans 4:4-5:

"Τῷ δὲ ἐργαζομένῳ ὁ μισθὸς οὐ λογίζεται κατὰ χάριν ἀλλὰ κατὰ ὀφείλημα· τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐργαζομένῳ, πιστεύοντι δὲ ἐπὶ τὸν δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἀσεβῆ, λογίζεται ἡ πίστις αὐτοῦ εἰς δικαιοσύνην."

(Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.)

If salvation were based on works, grace would cease to be grace because a wage is something owed (Romans 11:6).

Paul states that justification is given to “the one who does not work” (τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐργαζομένῳ), demonstrating that faith alone receives justification.
This directly refutes the claim that salvation is not by grace alone.

3. Grace and Works Are Mutually Exclusive in Justification
Romans 11:6
"Εἰ δὲ χάριτι, οὐκέτι ἐξ ἔργων, ἐπεὶ ἡ χάρις οὐκέτι γίνεται χάρις· εἰ δὲ ἐξ ἔργων, οὐκέτι ἐστὶ χάρις, ἐπεὶ τὸ ἔργον οὐκέτι ἐστὶν ἔργον."
(If by grace, then it is no longer by works; otherwise, grace is no longer grace. But if it is by works, it is no longer grace; otherwise, work is no longer work.)

Paul presents a binary contrast: If salvation is by grace, then works play no role in it; otherwise, grace ceases to be grace.
If one argues that salvation involves human obedience, then grace is nullified, and salvation becomes a wage instead of a gift.
Thus, any attempt to add human effort to grace destroys the very nature of grace.

4. Salvation is Not By Law-Keeping or Human Obedience
Galatians 2:16
"εἰδότες ὅτι οὐ δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἔργων νόμου ἐὰν μὴ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν ἐπιστεύσαμεν, ἵνα δικαιωθῶμεν ἐκ πίστεως Χριστοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων νόμου, ὅτι ἐξ ἔργων νόμου οὐ δικαιωθήσεται πᾶσα σάρξ."
(Knowing that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no flesh will be justified.)

"οὐ δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἔργων νόμου" (A man is not justified by works of the law). Paul completely rejects the idea that obedience plays any role in justification.
Instead, justification is entirely by faith apart from human merit.
Paul rebukes the Galatians for mixing grace and obedience, saying:
"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3)

This directly refutes synergism, which tries to combine grace and obedience.

5. What About Obedience? The Proper Place of Works
While justification is by grace alone through faith alone, good works follow salvation as the fruit of faith.
Ephesians 2:10 clarifies:
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
Works are the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
James 2:14-26 teaches that true faith produces works, but does not state that works play any role in receiving salvation.
Thus, obedience is evidence of salvation, not the means of obtaining it.

Conclusion: Salvation is by Grace Alone
Your claim that “salvation is not, never has been by grace alone” is demonstrably false because-

Ephesians 2:8-9 explicitly states that salvation is by grace through faith, not by works.
Romans 3:24 and 4:4-5 confirm that justification is a free gift, apart from human obedience.
Romans 11:6 shows that grace and works are mutually exclusive in justification.
Galatians 2:16 explicitly denies that justification is by obedience to God's law.
Obedience is a result of salvation (Ephesians 2:10), not a requirement for receiving grace.
The biblical doctrine is sola gratia—salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from any human effort or merit.

J.

"not of works" does not eliminate ALL works of all kinds but refers to works of merit and NOT obedience to God. Your whole argument fails for you fail to see that works of merit and obedience are two totally different things as works of God and works of Satan are two different things as works of unrighteousness and works of righteousness are two different things.

This is why faith onlyists cannot pinpoint one example where a person's obedience to God is called a work of merit. Calling Noah's obedience in building the ark as God command a work of merit rips grace out of the context. Nowhere, anywhere is it written that all free gifts must be given unconditionally, that idea only exists in the imagination of faith onlyists. It took God's grace and Noah's willful obedience in building the ark for Noah to be saved from the flood...synergism. No grace = Noah lost in the flood. Grace but no obedience as commanded by God = Noah lost in the flood.

Rom 6:16-18 explicitly state that obedience is necessary to being justified
Those Romans:
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then they were freed from sin/justified.

God does not UNconditionally give grace to the unrighteous, but only to those who first CONDITIONALLY obeyed.
Again, no faith onlyists can give an example of God UNCODNTIONALLY giving grace to those who live in unrighteous defiant, disobedience to His will.

2 Thess 1:8 God, in flaming fire, will have vengeance upon those who...obey not

This verse obviously and explicitly shows those who obey not will be the ones lost in flaming fire clearly meaning obedience is the line between the saved and lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

grace is a free gift of God but it is a conditional gift....only those who conditionally obey God are the ones who receive grace and must continue to obey God to continually receive grace. If the Christian does not continue to obey God then they 'received the grace of God in vain' 2 Cor 6:1.

Agreed.
All 3 items in Eph 2 are gifts: Grace, Faith, and Salvation.

I've lost the conversation a bit...
I might have stated that God gives to each person enough grace to know that He exists.
This would relate to Romans 1:19-20 GOD HAS MADE HIMSELF KNOWN THROUGH CREATION.

Also, the drawing by the Father in John 6:44 would be by the same TYPE of grace...some call it prevenient grace.

The Father draws men to Himself...
If they respond positively, then Father gives them to Jesus for salvation.

--there is no example of anyone in the NT of receiving grace BEFORE they humbly submit to God's will

Well, not all theologians will agree with this statement....
HOW do you believe the Father draws men to Himself in John 6:44?

Rom 1:18 the unrighteous will face God's wrath for they (Gentiles) 'hindered the truth'. The Gentiles were not ignorant of God's law but tried to stop it with ungodly living, they tried to keep down the truth of God which they knew by unrighteous living.

Rom 1:19 God's wrath is coming against them, not due to ignorance for they knew God's law, but for their refused to keep it. The Gentiles knew God exist by His creation v20 (not by grace unconditionally given them) therefore those Gentiles were without excuse for their ungodliness and cannot claim God hide Himself from them when God manifested himself to them in His physical creation of the world.

the idea of a 'sinner saved by grace' is totally unbiblical for sinners are those who have NOT obeyed God therefore sinners are lost having not received grace. Christians are the ones saved by grace for it is Christians who have already complied with God's will. Paul's point in Rom 6:1-6f is because Christians are saved by grace does not give the Christian a license to sin. Christians are to have 'obedience unto righteousness" to continue to receive grace for if the Christian quits obeying he will then be serving sin unto death.

since sin is transgression of God's law the only solution for sin is obedience to God's law to keep one from serving sin unto death. Hence salvation requires God's grace but also requires man's obedience to receive GOd's grace...synergism. Salvation is not, never has been by grace alone as some falsely contend.

I do believe you go a bit overboard Seabass.
I don't know what I could have said to warrant all of the above verses about obedience and grace.

What I'm saying is that some kind of grace is necessary in order for man to BE AWARE of God's presence.
That little light in us that makes us think that there might be more than just materialism.

You're arguing a different argument with me and I don't know why.

I'm really rusty on Prevenient grace because it's accepted that something is needed to DRAW us to God without being FORCED to go to him as the reformed believe.

If you care to continue the conversation,..I'll have to look up some stuff on this type of grace.

 

[Johann]

"not of works" does not eliminate ALL works of all kinds but refers to works of merit and NOT obedience to God. Your whole argument fails for you fail to see that works of merit and obedience are two totally different things as works of God and works of Satan are two different things as works of unrighteousness and works of righteousness are two different things.

This is why faith onlyists cannot pinpoint one example where a person's obedience to God is called a work of merit. Calling Noah's obedience in building the ark as God command a work of merit rips grace out of the context. Nowhere, anywhere is it written that all free gifts must be given unconditionally, that idea only exists in the imagination of faith onlyists. It took God's grace and Noah's willful obedience in building the ark for Noah to be saved from the flood...synergism. No grace = Noah lost in the flood. Grace but no obedience as commanded by God = Noah lost in the flood.

Rom 6:16-18 explicitly state that obedience is necessary to being justified
Those Romans:
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then they were freed from sin/justified.

God does not UNconditionally give grace to the unrighteous, but only to those who first CONDITIONALLY obeyed.
Again, no faith onlyists can give an example of God UNCODNTIONALLY giving grace to those who live in unrighteous defiant, disobedience to His will.

2 Thess 1:8 God, in flaming fire, will have vengeance upon those who...obey not

This verse obviously and explicitly shows those who obey not will be the ones lost in flaming fire clearly meaning obedience is the line between the saved and lost.

I was addressing your claim that “salvation is not, never has been by grace alone” is demonstrably false because--remember?

Grace is Unconditional in Salvation
Romans 5:6 (NASB):
"For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
Paul emphasizes that Christ’s death is for those who were helpless (ἀσθενεῖς), and not for those who were already righteous or obedient. This implies that grace is extended unconditionally to those who are unable to help themselves, regardless of their state of righteousness or obedience.

The term ἀσθενεῖς (asthenēis), often translated "helpless," refers to a condition of moral weakness, incapacity, or inability, which means that the recipients of God's grace are those who are spiritually powerless-not those who have first obeyed or made themselves worthy of grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB):
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

This passage shows that salvation is by grace and not of works. Salvation is a gift of God and not a result of human effort or obedience, confirming that God's grace is unconditional, rather than dependent on prior acts of obedience.

Titus 3:4-5 (NASB):
"But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."

Paul clearly states that salvation does not depend on human works or righteousness but is an act of God's mercy and grace. The "washing of regeneration" and renewal by the Holy Spirit is an act of divine grace, unconditional in its bestowal.

2. Grace and Faith as a Gift
Romans 3:24 (NASB):
"Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."

Justification, a legal declaration of righteousness, is freely given by God's grace. This passage makes clear that grace is a gift, unmerited and not earned by prior obedience or works.

Romans 11:6 (NASB):
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Here Paul directly connects grace to the absence of works, asserting that grace cannot be conditioned on obedience or merit. If salvation were conditioned on works, it would no longer be grace. This statement directly challenges the idea that God only gives grace to those who first obey.

3. Examples of Unconditional Grace in the Bible
Romans 5:8 (NASB):
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

The unconditional nature of God’s grace is again demonstrated here: Christ's sacrifice is for sinners, those who are in active rebellion against God, not for those who have already obeyed. Grace is given while we were still sinners-not as a reward for obedience.

Luke 15:11-32 (The Parable of the Prodigal Son):
In this well-known parable, the father unconditionally receives his son back into his home after the son has squandered his inheritance in reckless living. The father's action is not based on the son’s repentance or obedience but on the father’s gracious love. The son does not have to prove his worthiness or obedience for grace to be extended.

Exegetical note: The father’s welcoming of the son back is a clear metaphor for God’s grace toward sinners, showing that God’s grace is not dependent on prior obedience but is freely given.

Matthew 5:44-45 (NASB):
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Jesus teaches that God extends grace indiscriminately-even to the unrighteous, those who have not earned it or obeyed God’s commands. God’s grace is not limited to those who first obey but is given to all, including the unrighteous.

4. Grace Precedes Human Obedience

John 6:44 (NASB):
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

This verse shows that even the ability to come to Christ is initiated by God’s grace. It is God who draws, not human obedience, that makes salvation possible. The offer of grace is extended unconditionally, prior to any act of human obedience.

5. Is Grace Unconditional or Conditional?
The overwhelming witness of the New Testament is that grace is unconditional in its offer. It is God's initiative to draw, save, and redeem, not conditioned on prior obedience, but freely given to those who, through faith, receive it. Obedience is a response to grace, not a precondition for it. Your misunderstanding may arise from equating salvation by grace with the life of sanctification, which does involve the believer’s obedience as a fruit of grace.

Conclusion
Your assertion that grace is conditional upon prior obedience contradicts the clear teachings of Scripture regarding God's unmerited favor toward the undeserving. Salvation is, indeed, by grace alone, and while human response-particularly faith-is involved, grace itself is not contingent on any prior obedience or works. It is God’s unmerited kindness, given to those who are unrighteous, as demonstrated throughout the New Testament.

Good news, isn't it?

J.

 

[Seabass]

Agreed.
All 3 items in Eph 2 are gifts: Grace, Faith, and Salvation.

I've lost the conversation a bit...
I might have stated that God gives to each person enough grace to know that He exists.
This would relate to Romans 1:19-20 GOD HAS MADE HIMSELF KNOWN THROUGH CREATION.

Also, the drawing by the Father in John 6:44 would be by the same TYPE of grace...some call it prevenient grace.

The Father draws men to Himself...
If they respond positively, then Father gives them to Jesus for salvation.


Well, not all theologians will agree with this statement....
HOW do you believe the Father draws men to Himself in John 6:44?


I do believe you go a bit overboard Seabass.
I don't know what I could have said to warrant all of the above verses about obedience and grace.

What I'm saying is that some kind of grace is necessary in order for man to BE AWARE of God's presence.
That little light in us that makes us think that there might be more than just materialism.

You're arguing a different argument with me and I don't know why.

I'm really rusty on Prevenient grace because it's accepted that something is needed to DRAW us to God without being FORCED to go to him as the reformed believe.

If you care to continue the conversation,..I'll have to look up some stuff on this type of grace.

the context in Rom 1:19 does NOT say God gave them grace. The context says they had God's creation to know that God existed. So those Gentiles had knowledge of God manifested by His creation but they rejected this knowledge by their unrighteous living therefore were without excuse.

No man has to first be given grace to enable man to be drawn to God.

 

[Seabass]

I was addressing your claim that “salvation is not, never has been by grace alone” is demonstrably false because--remember?

Grace is Unconditional in Salvation
Romans 5:6 (NASB):
"For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
Paul emphasizes that Christ’s death is for those who were helpless (ἀσθενεῖς), and not for those who were already righteous or obedient. This implies that grace is extended unconditionally to those who are unable to help themselves, regardless of their state of righteousness or obedience.

The term ἀσθενεῖς (asthenēis), often translated "helpless," refers to a condition of moral weakness, incapacity, or inability, which means that the recipients of God's grace are those who are spiritually powerless-not those who have first obeyed or made themselves worthy of grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB):
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

This passage shows that salvation is by grace and not of works. Salvation is a gift of God and not a result of human effort or obedience, confirming that God's grace is unconditional, rather than dependent on prior acts of obedience.

Titus 3:4-5 (NASB):
"But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."

Paul clearly states that salvation does not depend on human works or righteousness but is an act of God's mercy and grace. The "washing of regeneration" and renewal by the Holy Spirit is an act of divine grace, unconditional in its bestowal.

2. Grace and Faith as a Gift
Romans 3:24 (NASB):
"Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."

Justification, a legal declaration of righteousness, is freely given by God's grace. This passage makes clear that grace is a gift, unmerited and not earned by prior obedience or works.

Romans 11:6 (NASB):
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Here Paul directly connects grace to the absence of works, asserting that grace cannot be conditioned on obedience or merit. If salvation were conditioned on works, it would no longer be grace. This statement directly challenges the idea that God only gives grace to those who first obey.

3. Examples of Unconditional Grace in the Bible
Romans 5:8 (NASB):
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

The unconditional nature of God’s grace is again demonstrated here: Christ's sacrifice is for sinners, those who are in active rebellion against God, not for those who have already obeyed. Grace is given while we were still sinners-not as a reward for obedience.

Luke 15:11-32 (The Parable of the Prodigal Son):
In this well-known parable, the father unconditionally receives his son back into his home after the son has squandered his inheritance in reckless living. The father's action is not based on the son’s repentance or obedience but on the father’s gracious love. The son does not have to prove his worthiness or obedience for grace to be extended.

Exegetical note: The father’s welcoming of the son back is a clear metaphor for God’s grace toward sinners, showing that God’s grace is not dependent on prior obedience but is freely given.

Matthew 5:44-45 (NASB):
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Jesus teaches that God extends grace indiscriminately-even to the unrighteous, those who have not earned it or obeyed God’s commands. God’s grace is not limited to those who first obey but is given to all, including the unrighteous.

4. Grace Precedes Human Obedience

John 6:44 (NASB):
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

This verse shows that even the ability to come to Christ is initiated by God’s grace. It is God who draws, not human obedience, that makes salvation possible. The offer of grace is extended unconditionally, prior to any act of human obedience.

5. Is Grace Unconditional or Conditional?
The overwhelming witness of the New Testament is that grace is unconditional in its offer. It is God's initiative to draw, save, and redeem, not conditioned on prior obedience, but freely given to those who, through faith, receive it. Obedience is a response to grace, not a precondition for it. Your misunderstanding may arise from equating salvation by grace with the life of sanctification, which does involve the believer’s obedience as a fruit of grace.

Conclusion
Your assertion that grace is conditional upon prior obedience contradicts the clear teachings of Scripture regarding God's unmerited favor toward the undeserving. Salvation is, indeed, by grace alone, and while human response-particularly faith-is involved, grace itself is not contingent on any prior obedience or works. It is God’s unmerited kindness, given to those who are unrighteous, as demonstrated throughout the New Testament.

Good news, isn't it?

J.

Tts 2:11 if salvation were by grace alone then all men would UNconditonally universally be saved but that is not the case. All men will not be saved for all men will not obey God thereby NOT receive grace from God.

Again, there is no example of men who continued to live in disobedience, defiance to God's will yet God unconditionally gave grace to them anyway...no one case. You cannot find the idea of "sinner's saved by grace" for sinner's have NOT obeyed GOd therefore lost not having received grace. It is Christian saved by grace for Christians have obeyed and received grace. 2 Tim 2:1 Paul says grace is "in Christ Jesus" therefore one must be in Christ to be in grace and it takes obedience in submitting to water baptism to be in Christ thereby in grace, (Gal 3:27).

=====================

Rom 6 refutes the idea of grace alone. Again, Paul was writing to CHRISTIANS and his point was because CHRISTIANS are saved by grace does not give a license to sin. Christians must CONTINUE to obey God to continue to be in His grace.

People wrongly tho't that if God's grace abounds over sin, then the more they sin the more grace would abound. To which Paul replied "God forbid" for Christians are those who have DIED to sin, v2. If a Christian continues in sin then he is serving "sin unto death" v16. Since sin is transgression of God's law then the only solution to NOT sinning is OBEDIENCE to God's will, hence Christians are to have "obedience unto righteousness".

Therefore grace alone will NOT save a Christian that continues in sin. Salvation then requires God's grace and the Christians continued obedience to remain in God's grace. Again, there is not one example of a sinner who continues to serve sin unto death receiving grace. Only those sinners who repent and trun to obeying GOd receive grace and must continue to obey God to keep receiving grace else receive grace in vain (2 Cor 6:1).


====================

Not a single verse says one must first receive grace from God before one is able to come to God. That is Calvisnim not NT gospel.
Jn 6:45 explains HOW the drawing is done and it is done by God's word, not by God giving grace. When God's word is taught, heard and learned Then one obediently comes to Christ. There is no drawing done apart from God's word being taught heard and learned.

================

Jn 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The first clause of this sentence, “No man can come unto me, except the Father that sent me draw him,” has been one of the most abused texts of the New Testament for many centuries.

For example, John Calvin taught that man is “so enslaved by the yoke of sin, that he cannot of his own nature aim at good either in wish or actual pursuit” (1975a, 265). Thus, one “cannot possibly come to Christ unless drawn by the Spirit.” He is drawn “both in mind and spirit exalted far above [his] own understanding” (Ibid., 500). The drawing is not indirectly through the Scriptures, but “inwardly by the Spirit” (Ibid., 277). God works in the elect so as to “guide, turn, and govern [their] heart by his Spirit” (Ibid., 269). The “grace of God is insipid to men, until the Holy Spirit gives it its savor” (1975b, 253).

A careful examination of the passage, however, reveals the following facts.

The statement, “No man can come to me [Christ], except the Father that sent me draw him,” is explicit.

The only route to Christ is by means of the drawing of God. But that does not completely explain the issue.

Two questions are paramount:

Is the “drawing” by God irresistible. In other words, is the divine drawing an appeal to man’s mind (intellect and emotion) or is it a force so strong as to bypass man’s free will?
Is the drawing miraculous by the direct impulse of the Holy Spirit? Or is it indirectly exerted through a divinely appointed means?
In his commentary on The Gospel According to John, the late Leon Morris argued that it is utterly impossible for a man to come to Christ on “his own volition”. Rather God himself must initiate the action. He repudiated the idea that choice is “the free decision of man.”

Calvin is quoted to the effect that the Spirit moves upon some, to turn them from unwilling to willing. It is alleged that God’s drawing power is always triumphant. It simply cannot be resisted (1995, 328-329).

While this view is popular among some, in fact, it is antagonistic to the teaching of the New Testament.

God’s Drawing Not By Force
First, the drawing is not by a force that is “irresistible,” as some claim (Sproul 1994, 69). Sproul cites Kittel on the word “draw” as meaning “an irresistible and supernatural force” (1964, 503), but this descriptive does not fit the biblical evidence. It is commentary, not a definition. For a discussion of the distinction between “draw” and “drag,” see Trench (1890, section xxi; cf. Vine 1991, on “drag”).

If “draw” means an “irresistible force,” then all would be saved. Why? Because later in this same Gospel narrative the Lord says: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself” (Jn. 12:32).

The drawing is a beneficent pull. The Lord said to ancient Israel: “I have loved you with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn you” (Jer. 31:3; cf. Song of Sol. 1:4).

How Does God Draw Men to Christ?
In verse forty-five, Jesus reveals precisely how God draws people to Christ. Quoting from the prophet Isaiah (Isa. 54:13) and possibly alluding to Jeremiah 31:34, the Lord employs four verbs to stress the personal volition of human beings and the method employed in their being drawn to him. They must be taught, hear, learn, and come.

To ignore these inspired words is exegetically dishonest.

Taught
The term “taught” is from the adjective didaktos. It’s found only twice in the Greek New Testament. The word has to do with “being taught, instructed” (Danker et al. 2000, 240).

In 1 Corinthians 2:13 it is employed of the teaching that ultimately originates with the Holy Spirit but is made known by means of words through men who convey the message — either those inspired originally or now by means of their words as recorded in Scripture.

Professor Merrill Tenney wrote: “Verse 45 indicates that God would do his drawing through the Scriptures and that those who were obedient to God’s will as revealed in the Scriptures would come to Jesus” (1981, 76; emphasis added). Bernard observed that the “drawing” was by “being taught” (1928, 205).

Some appeal to 1 Thessalonians 4:9 in an attempt to establish the theory that the teaching is in an internal, subjective instruction by the Holy Spirit (Hiebert 1971, 178).

“[Y]ou have no need to have any one write to you, for your yourselves have been taught of God.”

But the actual point here being made is that the teaching regarding brotherly love had been done previously. In fact, since their conversion, they had already understood that they all were family by virtue of a common new birth. Paul was simply reminding them that such an elementary matter did not need to be rehearsed in the present letter.

Hearing
The word “heard” is important because it is preliminary to coming to Christ.

The verb is a past tense form of akouo. Mounce notes that there are at least five senses in which akouo is used in the New Testament. In this case, it is a hearing with a view to learning (2007, 327). In other words, it involves receiving information about something (cf. Danker et al. 2000, 38).

Learning
“Learn” derives from manthano, “to gain knowledge or skill by instruction” (Danker et al. 2000, 615). It involves more than mere exposure to information. It embraces the idea of grasping the significance of what has been taught (Mt. 13:23). As Mounce observes, it “involves not only exposure to information but also comprehension” (2007, 397). It conveys the sense of “understanding” (cf. Mt. 9:13).

No one is qualified to “come to” Christ, or even needs to if he is incompetent to understand the rudiments of the gospel (Rom. 1:16). Paul’s statement in Romans 6:17 that gospel obedience is “from the heart” shows, among other things, “that our decision to surrender to God was our own choice and was not coerced or irresistibly imposed upon us” (Cottrell 1996, 413; emphasis added).

This nullifies Calvinism’s dogma of predestination, and denominationalism’s practice of infant sprinkling.

Coming to Jesus
The fourth verb is “comes.” Only those who are taught the truth, listen intently with the motive of learning, and who understand the foundational elements of the gospel are qualified to come to Christ.

While coming is the result of God’s drawing by means of revealed truth, the term contains the implication that one has the ability when the preliminary requisites are satisfied to come to the Lord.

Coming is not the result of divine compulsion. It derives from an intellectual and emotional decision to surrender to the Savior. Simple logic provides a clear picture of the process.

God draws. People come.
Those who come, however, are those who have been taught, who have heard and learned.
Hence it is perfectly transparent that God draws sincere people by means of gospel instruction by which people are taught, hear, and learn.
Jesus invited the people of certain cities in Galilee to “come unto me” (Mt. 11:28), and that invitation had resident within it the implied ability to obey. Why invite those to come, who simply cannot, because of an alleged depravity that holds them incapacitated by sin?

In the final days prior to his crucifixion, Christ wept over the city of Jerusalem, lamenting the fact that though he had longed to gather them under his protective care, they would not (Mt. 23:37). There is a vast difference between “would not” and “could not.” However, if a stubborn person practices “I won’t” long enough, it can become “I can’t” (Jn. 12:39). See also John 5:40 and Revelation 22:17 for the matter of free will.

Conclusion
When John 6:44-45 is rescued from the morass of sectarian theology, it becomes thrillingly fresh invigorating the soul with instructive principles that guide one through the correct processes to the redemption that is through Christ.

Let us study this methodology, exhort our contemporaries to pursue it. And let us rejoice when they become our kinsmen in the Lord.
Sources

• Bernard, J. H. 1928. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to John. Vol. 1. Edinburgh, Scotland: T. & T. Clark.
• Calvin, John. 1975a. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Vol. 1. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
• Calvin, John. 1975b. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Vol. 2. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
• Cottrell, Jack. 1996. The College Press NIV Commentary – Romans. Vol. 1. Joplin, MO: College Press.
• Danker, F. W., et al. 2000. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago.
• Hiebert, D. Edmond. 1971. The Thessalonian Epistles. Chicago, IL: Moody.
• Kittel, Gerhard, ed. 1964. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Vol. 2. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
• Morris, Leon. 1995. The Gospel According to John – Revised Edition. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
• Mounce, William D. 2007. Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
• Sproul, R. C. 1994. Chosen By God. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.
• Tenney, Merrill. 1981. The Gospel of John – The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. Vol. 9. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
• Trench. R. C. 1890. Synonyms of the New Testament. London, England: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, & Co.
• Vine, W. E. 1991. Amplified Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Iowa Falls, IA: World Publishing.

Exploring the Divine Drawing Power of God through Jesus Christ

This article explores the concept of God's drawing power as demonstrated through the teachings and miracles of Jesus Christ. It delves into the interpretation of biblical passages and debates around free will and the influence of the Holy Spirit.

christiancourier.com

 

[Seabass]

Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist “Predestination”?​

“Please explain John 6:37. Who are those ‘given’ to Christ? Does this mean that they were selected by God before the foundation of the world, and are ‘elected’ — irrespective of their personal obedience?”

The passage under consideration reads as follows:

“All of those whom the Father gives me shall come unto me; and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out.”

First, the Bible student needs to remind himself of this premise. The Scriptures are the inspired word of God (1 Thes. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16-17). Because Jehovah is the ultimate source, they never contradict themselves. Instead, they are perfectly harmonious (Dt. 32:4; 1 Cor. 14:33a).

Therefore, when we encounter a passage that may appear to conflict with plain-spoken texts contained elsewhere in Scripture, we must look carefully at the more obscure text and determine if there is a reasonable way to bring it into harmony with the other.

Having said that, let us further emphasize this point. No sacred text must be viewed in any way that would negate the following fundamental truths.

(1) Man has been granted free will (Mt. 23:37b; Jn. 5:39; 7:17; Rev. 22:17).

(2) His salvation depends on his personal acceptance of divine grace, in obedience to the requirements of the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:7-9; Heb. 5:8-9; 1 Pet. 4:17).

To suggest that God, before the world’s foundation, chose certain ones to be saved, and others to be lost, independent of a personal reception of truth, is a doctrine that cannot be sustained by the Scriptures — regardless of the number of sincere people who subscribe to it.

There are several crucial questions that must be addressed in connection with John 6:37.When did the “giving” of certain people to the Son take place? In what sense does the Father “give” these people to his Son? What relationship does the “giving” bear to their “coming” to him? And, what is the significance of the promise, “I will in no wise cast out”?Let us take each of these in order.

(3) When did the “giving” take place? The idea that believers were unconditionally “given” to Christ, in the eternal counsel of God before the foundation of the world, is negated by this very passage. The verb “gives” (didosin) is a present tense form. It indicates an action in progress. The Father, at that very time, was in the process of giving certain ones to his Son.

This passage cannot possibly be employed to establish a “done-deal” gift back in pre-world eternity. As Reynolds noted, “‘The giving’ implies a present activity of grace, not a foregone conclusion” (17, p. 201).

(4) In what sense did God “give” people to his Son? The terms “gift” and “given” are frequently employed idiomatically in the Scriptures to denote divine favor as expressed in Heaven’s redemptive work on man’s behalf — without there being any inclination of an “unconditional election.”

For example, David prophesied that Jehovah would “give” the “nations” (Gentiles) to Christ as an inheritance (Psa. 2:8; cf. Acts 4:25-26). Surely no one will contend that all Gentiles were unconditionally predestined to salvation, irrespective of their response to divine truth. Even the most cursory examination of the book of Acts, from chapter 10 onward, reveals that the Gentiles were admitted into redemptive favor by yielding to the requirements of the gospel. Salvation was not as a consequence of an eternal decree independent of human obedience (cf. Acts 10:34-35,43; 11:14; 15:8-9; 1 Pet. 1:22-23).

(5) What relationship is there between the “giving” and the “coming” in John 6:37?There is a significant connection.The “giving” represents what God has provided in the great plan of human salvation; the “coming” represents the acceptation of that plan as manifested in the sinner’s obedience.

The subsequent context affords a wonderful illustration of this — with slightly different imagery, but with corresponding thought.Note the language of verses 44-45.

“No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one who has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes unto me.”

In this passage, God’s “drawing” is parallel to his “giving” of verse 37.And yet, clearly in vv. 44-45 the drawing is accomplished by hearing his word, learning, and coming to the Lord.Jehovah provides the redemptive information, but humanity must access it.By a comparison of these passages, therefore, one may logically conclude that this is how men are “given” to Christ as well.As Bloomfield once observed, “The term [gives] therefore (here and at ver. 39 and 65) must signify something compatible with the free agency of man” (I, p. 363).

When former Baptist minister Robert Shank issued his book, Life in the Son, it produced shock waves among Calvinists.Professor William Adams of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary characterized the book as “one of the most arresting and disturbing books” he had ever read (p. xiii).In this instructive volume, Shank has a special Appendix, “Whom Does the Father Give to Jesus?” in which he discusses this very passage.Therein the author fires this parting blast:

“There is nothing about God’s gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel’s ‘whosoever will’ into a ‘whosoever must’ and a ‘most of you shan’t.‘There is nothing about it which binds men in the strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ’free’” (p. 339).

(6) Our final question is this: “What is the meaning of the affirmation, ‘I will in no wise cast out’?”Some allege it suggests the dogma of the impossibility of apostasy, i.e., that no one “given” to Christ in the eternal scheme of things could ever be lost.The child of God, therefore, can never fall from grace — or so it is claimed.

The passage does not even remotely suggest this pernicious doctrine.Even Albert Barnes, who subscribed to the Calvinistic doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy (see his comment at Matthew 7:23), conceded the following, with reference to John 6:37b. “This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him” (pp. 246-247).

This admission, combined with the scriptural declarations that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9), and that “whosoever will” may come to Christ, are death blows to the theory that some were chosen by God for salvation, and others for damnation, before the world began.Perhaps no dogma has ever been so misguided.

Sources

• Barnes, Albert (1954), “Luke — John,” Notes on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker).
• Bloomfield, S.T. (1837), The Greek Testament with English Notes (Boston: Perkins & Marvin).
• Reynolds. H.R. (1950), “The Gospel of John,” The Pulpit Commentary, H.D.M. Spence, Joseph Exell, Eds. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans).
• Shank, Robert (1961), Life in the Son (Springfield, MO: Westcott).

Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?

It is commonly alleged that Jesus, in John 6:37, endorsed the idea of "predestination" as popularized by John Calvin in the 16th century. Did he? Study this question with us.

christiancourier.com

 

[GodsGrace]

the context in Rom 1:19 does NOT say God gave them grace. The context says they had God's creation to know that God existed. So those Gentiles had knowledge of God manifested by His creation but they rejected this knowledge by their unrighteous living therefore were without excuse.

No man has to first be given grace to enable man to be drawn to God.

WHAT makes man become aware of God if the reformed are wrong?

 

[Johann]

Taught
The term “taught” is from the adjective didaktos. It’s found only twice in the Greek New Testament. The word has to do with “being taught, instructed” (Danker et al. 2000, 240).

John 6:44 – Οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.
1. Οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν (oudeis dynatai elthein) – "No one is able to come"

Joh 6:44 no-one G3762 a_ Nom Sg m oudeis ουδεισ T1 Adj-NMS No one can G1410 G5736 vi Pres midD/pasD 3 Sg dunatai δυναται T2 V-PIM/P-3S is able To-be-coming G2064 G5629 vn 2Aor Act elthein ελθειν T3 V-ANA to come Toward G4314 Prep pros προσ T4 Prep to Me G3165 pp 1 Acc Sg me με T5 - - If-ever G1437 Cond ean εαν T6 Conj if No G3361 Part Neg me μη T7 Adv not The G3588 t_ Nom Sg m ho ο T8 Art-NMS the [one] Father G3962 n_ Nom Sg m pater πατηρ T9 N-NMS Father, The G3588 t_ Nom Sg m ho ο T10 Art-DFS the one-sending G3992 G5660 vp Aor Act Nom Sg m pempsas πεμψασ T11 V-APA-NMS having sent Me G3165 pp 1 Acc Sg me με T12 - - Should-be-drawing G1670 G5661 vs Aor Act 3 Sg helkuse ελκυση T13 V-ASA-3S draws Him G846 pp Acc Sg m auton αυτον T14 PPro-AM3S him, And G2532 Conj kai και T15 - - I G1473 pp 1 Nom Sg ego εγω T16 PPro-A1S Me, shall-be-raising G450 G5692 vi Fut Act 1 Sg anasteso αναστησω T17 V-FIA-1S will raise up Him G846 pp Acc Sg m auton αυτον T18 PPro-AM3S him The G3588 t_ Dat Sg f te τη T19 Art-NMS the Last G2078 a_ Dat Sg f eschate εσχατη T20 Adj-DFS last Day G2250 n_ Dat Sg f hemera ημερα T21 N-DFS day.

Joh 6:44 no-one01 can02 To-be-coming03 Toward04 Me05 If-ever06 No07 The08 Father09 The10 one-sending11 Me12 Should-be-drawing13 Him14 And15 I16 shall-be-raising17 Him18 The19 Last20 Day21
Joh 6:45 it-is01 Having-been-written02 In03 The04 prophets05 And06 They-shall-be07 All08 taught09 Of-the10 God11 N1 Every12 Then13 The14 one-hearing15 Beside16 The17 Father18 And19 Learning20 Is-coming21 Toward22 Me23

Οὐδεὶς (oudeis) – "No one, not a single person."

This is an emphatic negation using the absolute form of οὐδείς (oudeis), stressing total incapability apart from divine action.
δύναται (dynatai) – "is able"

Present middle/passive indicative, 3rd person singular from δύναμαι (dynamai) = "to have power, ability."

The present tense suggests a continuous state of inability, meaning humans do not naturally possess the capacity to come to Christ on their own initiative.

ἐλθεῖν (elthein) – "to come"

Aorist active infinitive from ἔρχομαι (erchomai) = "to come, to move toward."

The aorist infinitive refers to the act of coming rather than the process, meaning the verse is discussing the potential for coming to Christ, not merely movement toward Him.

2. ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν (ean mē ho patēr ho pempsas me helkysē auton) – "unless the Father who sent Me draws him"

ἐὰν μὴ (ean mē) – "unless"

This is a third-class conditional clause, meaning the action (coming to Christ) is contingent upon another action (being drawn by the Father).

ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας (ho patēr ho pempsas) – "the Father who sent"

ὁ πέμψας (ho pempsas) – Aorist active participle, nominative singular masculine from πέμπω (pempō) = "to send, commission."
The aorist tense shows a completed act of sending (i.e., the Father already sent Christ), which strengthens the idea that Christ’s mission is linked to this drawing process.

ἑλκύσῃ (helkysē) – "draws"

Aorist active subjunctive, 3rd person singular from ἑλκύω (helkyō) = "to draw, pull."

The aorist subjunctive indicates a specific act of drawing rather than an ongoing process.

Semantic range of ἑλκύω (helkyō):
Used for dragging nets (John 21:6) → Suggests effortful attraction.
Used metaphorically in Jeremiah 31:3 (LXX) → "I have drawn you with lovingkindness" (ἔλκυσα σε ἐν ἐλέει).
Not forceful coercion (contra Calvinism), but rather an influence that brings one toward God through divine teaching.
3. κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ (kagō anastēsō auton en tē eschatē hēmera) – "And I will raise him up on the last day"
ἀναστήσω (anastēsō) – "I will raise up"

Future active indicative, 1st person singular from ἀνίστημι (anistēmi) = "to raise up."
This is a prophetic certainty, meaning that those who come to Christ will be resurrected.

John 6:45 – Ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τοῖς προφήταις· Καὶ ἔσονται πάντες διδακτοὶ θεοῦ. Πᾶς ὁ ἀκούσας παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μαθὼν ἔρχεται πρός με.
1. Ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τοῖς προφήταις (Estin gegrammenon en tois prophētais) – "It is written in the Prophets"
γεγραμμένον (gegrammenon) – "It is written"

Perfect passive participle, nominative singular neuter from γράφω (graphō) = "to write."
The perfect tense indicates a completed action with ongoing results, meaning this scriptural truth remains valid.

2. Καὶ ἔσονται πάντες διδακτοὶ θεοῦ (Kai esontai pantes didaktoi Theou) – "And they shall all be taught by God"
ἔσονται (esontai) – "they shall be"

Future middle indicative, 3rd person plural from εἰμί (eimi) = "to be."
This expresses certainty that all will be instructed by God.
διδακτοὶ (didaktoi) – "taught"

Adjective, nominative plural masculine from διδακτός (didaktos) = "taught, instructed."
Only used twice in NT (1 Cor. 2:13, John 6:45) → Denotes direct divine instruction.
3. Πᾶς ὁ ἀκούσας παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μαθὼν ἔρχεται πρός με (Pas ho akousas para tou patros kai mathōn erchetai pros me) – "Everyone who has heard from the Father and has learned comes to Me"
ἀκούσας (akousas) – "having heard"

Aorist active participle, nominative singular masculine from ἀκούω (akouō) = "to hear."
Aorist participle = A completed act of hearing before coming.
μαθὼν (mathōn) – "having learned"

Aorist active participle, nominative singular masculine from μανθάνω (manthanō) = "to learn, to understand."
Aorist participle = A completed act of learning before coming.
ἔρχεται (erchetai) – "comes"

Present middle indicative, 3rd person singular from ἔρχομαι (erchomai) = "to come."
Present tense = Continuous coming, meaning the response is not merely a one-time event.

Deeper Implications Based on Syntax
The Father's drawing (6:44) does not override human will but requires hearing and learning (6:45), which precedes coming.
ἑλκύω (helkyō) does not mean coercion but an effectual invitation through divine instruction.
Aorist participles (ἀκούσας, μαθὼν) show that learning precedes coming; thus, faith involves comprehension.
Present tense ἔρχεται (erchetai) implies an ongoing response to divine teaching, refuting the idea of an instant, irresistible conversion.

Conclusion
Christian Courier correctly rejects irresistible grace, but a deeper grammatical analysis reinforces that drawing is mediated through divine teaching, not mystical compulsion. The process is synergistic-God draws, man hears, learns, and comes.

I see you are drawing your conclusions from Christian Courier @Seabass-not taking a pot shot at you, and please spare me Calvin and his Institutes, I am not a Calvinist but do consider them brothers in Christ.

Your post is too long to respond so I'll leave it here.

Johann.

 

[GodsGrace]

Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist “Predestination”?​

“Please explain John 6:37. Who are those ‘given’ to Christ? Does this mean that they were selected by God before the foundation of the world, and are ‘elected’ — irrespective of their personal obedience?”

The passage under consideration reads as follows:

“All of those whom the Father gives me shall come unto me; and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out.”

First, the Bible student needs to remind himself of this premise. The Scriptures are the inspired word of God (1 Thes. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16-17). Because Jehovah is the ultimate source, they never contradict themselves. Instead, they are perfectly harmonious (Dt. 32:4; 1 Cor. 14:33a).

Therefore, when we encounter a passage that may appear to conflict with plain-spoken texts contained elsewhere in Scripture, we must look carefully at the more obscure text and determine if there is a reasonable way to bring it into harmony with the other.

Having said that, let us further emphasize this point. No sacred text must be viewed in any way that would negate the following fundamental truths.

(1) Man has been granted free will (Mt. 23:37b; Jn. 5:39; 7:17; Rev. 22:17).

(2) His salvation depends on his personal acceptance of divine grace, in obedience to the requirements of the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:7-9; Heb. 5:8-9; 1 Pet. 4:17).

To suggest that God, before the world’s foundation, chose certain ones to be saved, and others to be lost, independent of a personal reception of truth, is a doctrine that cannot be sustained by the Scriptures — regardless of the number of sincere people who subscribe to it.

There are several crucial questions that must be addressed in connection with John 6:37.When did the “giving” of certain people to the Son take place? In what sense does the Father “give” these people to his Son? What relationship does the “giving” bear to their “coming” to him? And, what is the significance of the promise, “I will in no wise cast out”?Let us take each of these in order.

(3) When did the “giving” take place? The idea that believers were unconditionally “given” to Christ, in the eternal counsel of God before the foundation of the world, is negated by this very passage. The verb “gives” (didosin) is a present tense form. It indicates an action in progress. The Father, at that very time, was in the process of giving certain ones to his Son.

This passage cannot possibly be employed to establish a “done-deal” gift back in pre-world eternity. As Reynolds noted, “‘The giving’ implies a present activity of grace, not a foregone conclusion” (17, p. 201).

(4) In what sense did God “give” people to his Son? The terms “gift” and “given” are frequently employed idiomatically in the Scriptures to denote divine favor as expressed in Heaven’s redemptive work on man’s behalf — without there being any inclination of an “unconditional election.”

For example, David prophesied that Jehovah would “give” the “nations” (Gentiles) to Christ as an inheritance (Psa. 2:8; cf. Acts 4:25-26). Surely no one will contend that all Gentiles were unconditionally predestined to salvation, irrespective of their response to divine truth. Even the most cursory examination of the book of Acts, from chapter 10 onward, reveals that the Gentiles were admitted into redemptive favor by yielding to the requirements of the gospel. Salvation was not as a consequence of an eternal decree independent of human obedience (cf. Acts 10:34-35,43; 11:14; 15:8-9; 1 Pet. 1:22-23).

(5) What relationship is there between the “giving” and the “coming” in John 6:37?There is a significant connection.The “giving” represents what God has provided in the great plan of human salvation; the “coming” represents the acceptation of that plan as manifested in the sinner’s obedience.

The subsequent context affords a wonderful illustration of this — with slightly different imagery, but with corresponding thought.Note the language of verses 44-45.


In this passage, God’s “drawing” is parallel to his “giving” of verse 37.And yet, clearly in vv. 44-45 the drawing is accomplished by hearing his word, learning, and coming to the Lord.Jehovah provides the redemptive information, but humanity must access it.By a comparison of these passages, therefore, one may logically conclude that this is how men are “given” to Christ as well.As Bloomfield once observed, “The term [gives] therefore (here and at ver. 39 and 65) must signify something compatible with the free agency of man” (I, p. 363).

When former Baptist minister Robert Shank issued his book, Life in the Son, it produced shock waves among Calvinists.Professor William Adams of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary characterized the book as “one of the most arresting and disturbing books” he had ever read (p. xiii).In this instructive volume, Shank has a special Appendix, “Whom Does the Father Give to Jesus?” in which he discusses this very passage.Therein the author fires this parting blast:


(6) Our final question is this: “What is the meaning of the affirmation, ‘I will in no wise cast out’?”Some allege it suggests the dogma of the impossibility of apostasy, i.e., that no one “given” to Christ in the eternal scheme of things could ever be lost.The child of God, therefore, can never fall from grace — or so it is claimed.

The passage does not even remotely suggest this pernicious doctrine.Even Albert Barnes, who subscribed to the Calvinistic doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy (see his comment at Matthew 7:23), conceded the following, with reference to John 6:37b. “This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him” (pp. 246-247).

This admission, combined with the scriptural declarations that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9), and that “whosoever will” may come to Christ, are death blows to the theory that some were chosen by God for salvation, and others for damnation, before the world began.Perhaps no dogma has ever been so misguided.

Sources

• Barnes, Albert (1954), “Luke — John,” Notes on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker).
• Bloomfield, S.T. (1837), The Greek Testament with English Notes (Boston: Perkins & Marvin).
• Reynolds. H.R. (1950), “The Gospel of John,” The Pulpit Commentary, H.D.M. Spence, Joseph Exell, Eds. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans).
• Shank, Robert (1961), Life in the Son (Springfield, MO: Westcott).

Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?

It is commonly alleged that Jesus, in John 6:37, endorsed the idea of "predestination" as popularized by John Calvin in the 16th century. Did he? Study this question with us.

christiancourier.com

Wow.
If only you believed in prevenient grace!
All of the above would not be necessary,,,
and it isn't.
Because God does give us the amount of grace necessary to acknowledge His existence.
Sounds too reformed for you?
Think it over well.

 

[Jim]

What I'm saying is that some kind of grace is necessary in order for man to BE AWARE of God's presence.
That little light in us that makes us think that there might be more than just materialism.

The grace of Ephesians 2:8 is a character trait of God, not a gift to some and not to others. The bible is a gift of grace to the world.

 

[Jim]

Wow.
If only you believed in prevenient grace!
All of the above would not be necessary,,,
and it isn't.
Because God does give us the amount of grace necessary to acknowledge His existence.
Sounds too reformed for you?
Think it over well.

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

So tell us where you read about that prevenient grace in the bible. Who gets prevenient grace and who does not.