"Works Salvation"

[GodsGrace]

The grace of Ephesians 2:8 is a character trait of God, not a gift to some and not to others. The bible is a gift of grace to the world.

Did I say it was a gift to some and not to others?
The gift of grace in Eph 2 is for anyone that wants it.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

So tell us where you read about that prevenient grace in the bible. Who gets prevenient grace and who does not.

EVERYONE gets prevenient grace.
HOW do YOU believe a person can know that God exists?
Read Romans 1:19-20 and then explain HOW anyone could know about God.

I don't understand why I'm getting push-back on this.

In Christianity it is accepted that GOD makes the first move in our salvation.
God desires that all should come to know Him.
1 Timothy 2:4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Surely if God would like for everyone to be saved...He has a method for allowing man to know Him.

You posted Romans 10:17.
So what if a person never hears the gospel message?
How does this square with Romans 1:19?

And, again, HOW can a person know about God?

 

[Jim]

Did I say it was a gift to some and not to others?
The gift of grace in Eph 2 is for anyone that wants it.

Grace is not the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2:8.

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace is not the gift spoken of in Ephesians 2:8.

What is THE gift Jim?
Theologians believe, and I agree, that all 3 are gifts.

If Grace is not a gift...what is it?
If faith is not a gift...what is it?
If salvation is not a gift...what is it?

God's grace is for everyone....
it rains on the just and the unjust.

Faith is God's plan from the Garden as a tool for salvation.
We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH....
For whoever wishes to accept the gift.

Salvation is also a gift.
God's mercy would want that all mankind be saved..
He is a just God and offers the same gifts to everyone.
But not everyone will accept His gifts.

So which of the above do you believe is not a gift?

 

[Jim]

EVERYONE gets prevenient grace.
HOW do YOU believe a person can know that God exists?
Read Romans 1:19-20 and then explain HOW anyone could know about God.

By looking around them to see the creation recognizing that something caused it to be. Perhaps I don't understand what is really meant by the phrase "prevenient grace".

I don't understand why I'm getting push-back on this.

In Christianity it is accepted that GOD makes the first move in our salvation.
God desires that all should come to know Him.
1 Timothy 2:4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Surely if God would like for everyone to be saved...He has a method for allowing man to know Him.

You posted Romans 10:17.
So what if a person never hears the gospel message?
How does this square with Romans 1:19?

And, again, HOW can a person know about God?

Read all of Romans 10. For example, Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

The great commission of Matthew 28 s not describing what to do with disciples; rather, it describes how disciples are to be made. Baptizing and teaching is the process to be used for making disciples.

We are not told God's plan for those who have not heard about Him and do not know about Him. We are told about who is responsible for making God known to them.

 

[GodsGrace]

By looking around them to see the creation recognizing that something caused it to be. Perhaps I don't understand what is really meant by the phrase "prevenient grace".

All Christian believe in prevenient grace but might call it by a different name.
It is pre....the grace that comes before.
God gives to all men ENOUGH grace to be able to discern that God is in creation,,,,that He exists.

This has nothing to do with reformed/Calvinist theology that teaches that a person must be REGENERATED first before he could believe.
Which is nonsense. IOW...they believe a person has to be born again first (regenerated) before he could be born again (believe).

The bible states that it rains on the just and the unjust.
God give to ALL MEN this grace.
I do believe you could find info on this on the net...it's so easy to get information these days.

Christianity also beleives that God makes the first move...I think I've said this.
THIS prevenient grace would be the first move that God makes TOWARD US.
But it's only enough to let us know that He exists.
THEN it's up to us to respond...either with a yes or with a no.

Read all of Romans 10. For example, Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

OK But the above is referring to those that either have heard or will at some point, hear the gospel message.
What about those that never do hear the gospel message?
This is what Romans 1:19 is about.
It states that man will be without excuse BECAUSE God is evident to them in the creation.

The great commission of Matthew 28 s not describing what to do with disciples; rather, it describes how disciples are to be made. Baptizing and teaching is the process to be used for making disciples.

Agreed. It also is telling the Apostles to go out and preach what Jesus taught, right?

We are not told God's plan for those who have not heard about Him and do not know about Him. We are told about who is responsible for making God known to them.

This would be a different topic. I'm willing if you are.
I believe we can know.

 

[Jim]

What is THE gift Jim?
Theologians believe, and I agree, that all 3 are gifts.

Only some theologians. THE gift is salvation, salvation by grace through faith.

If Grace is not a gift...what is it?

The grace in Ephesians 2 is one of God's attributes as is His love, His wrath, His holiness, His mercy, His ....

If faith is not a gift...what is it?

Faith is obtained not as a gift, but as a result of hearing the word about God, about Christ. For some, such as me who was raised in a good Christian family it was easy; but for some it can be a long and difficult road..

If salvation is not a gift...what is it?

Salvation is THE gift of Ephesians 2:8

God's grace is for everyone....
it rains on the just and the unjust.

But not everyone is saved.

Faith is God's plan from the Garden as a tool for salvation.
We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH....
For whoever wishes to accept the gift.

And how one comes to faith is described. It comes through the gospel of the Bible.

Salvation is also a gift.
God's mercy would want that all mankind be saved..
He is a just God and offers the same gifts to everyone.
But not everyone will accept His gifts.

Not everyone has even heard of the gift. Again, read Romans 10.

So which of the above do you believe is not a gift?

Explained above.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only some theologians. THE gift is salvation, salvation by grace through faith.

The grace in Ephesians 2 is one of God's attributes as is His love, His wrath, His holiness, His mercy, His ....

Faith is obtained not as a gift, but as a result of hearing the word about God, about Christ. For some, such as me who was raised in a good Christian family it was easy; but for some it can be a long and difficult road..

Salvation is THE gift of Ephesians 2:8

But not everyone is saved.

And how one comes to faith is described. It comes through the gospel of the Bible.

Not everyone has even heard of the gift. Again, read Romans 10.

Explained above.

OK Jim.
This is not a topic I'm willing to debate.
I think I've read Romans 10 ....
We're not agreeing but it's OK
this is not a salvific issue.

 

[Jim]

OK Jim.
This is not a topic I'm willing to debate.
I think I've read Romans 10 ....
We're not agreeing but it's OK
this is not a salvific issue.

How is faith not a salvific issue?

 

[GodsGrace]

How is faith not a salvific issue?

YOU said that you believe only grace is the gift in Ephesians 2.
I said all 3 are gifts.

How is that a salvific issue?

I didn't say FAITH is not a slavific issue...
I said that you could believe what you will about which is the gift or which isn't...
THIS is NOT a salvific issue.

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation is THE gift of Ephesians 2:8

Amen! For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

 

[Jim]

YOU said that you believe only grace is the gift in Ephesians 2.
I said all 3 are gifts.

And you are wrong. But I have explained that and will just leave it at that.

 

[GodsGrace]

And you are wrong. But I have explained that and will just leave it at that.

It's OK to be wrong in this case.
God bless you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen! For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

So what is the gift of God Dan?
Sounds from your emphasis that SALVATION is also a gift....

Must go.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

All Christian believe in prevenient grace but might call it by a different name.
It is pre....the grace that comes before.
God gives to all men ENOUGH grace to be able to discern that God is in creation,,,,that He exists.

I would add one other thing this prevenient grace does to us, my sister.
It make us yearn for Him, look for Him somehow, somewhere, even by "groping" in the middle of our darkness.

God's grace make us realize that there is water out there (God's existence), and that we are thirsty (our need of reaching out to God).

This universal search of God is well represented in Paul's speech to the Athenians (Acts 17:24-28, New Catholic Bible).

“The God who made the world and everything in it... From one ancestor, he created all peoples to occupy the entire earth, and he decreed their appointed times and the boundaries of where they would live. He did all this so that people might seek God in the hope that by groping for him they might find him, even though indeed he is not far from any one of us. For ‘In him we live and move and have our being.’ As even your own poets have said, ‘We are all his offspring.’​

​

An artificial intelligence program could figure out the existence of a Supreme Being behind the creation, but I don't think it won't get the most intimate desire to reach out to Him, to feel in need.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would add one other thing this prevenient grace does to us, my sister.
It make us yearn for Him, look for Him somehow, somewhere, even by "groping" in the middle of our darkness.

God's grace make us realize that there is water out there (God's existence), and that we are thirsty (our need of reaching out to God).

This universal search of God is well represented in Paul's speech to the Athenians (Acts 17:24-28, New Catholic Bible).

“The God who made the world and everything in it... From one ancestor, he created all peoples to occupy the entire earth, and he decreed their appointed times and the boundaries of where they would live. He did all this so that people might seek God in the hope that by groping for him they might find him, even though indeed he is not far from any one of us. For ‘In him we live and move and have our being.’ As even your own poets have said, ‘We are all his offspring.’​

​

An artificial intelligence program could figure out the existence of a Supreme Being behind the creation, but I don't think it won't get the most intimate desire to reach out to Him, to feel in need.

Agreed. Thanks for posting Acts 17:24-28.

Man has the ability to seek God, as the bible teaches, because God has made Himself known.
To make Himself known,,,it is necessary for us to see some of God's grace...even to feel it, as many times we do even
before being saved/born again...but perhaps we cannot even rightly define what it is we're experiencing.

And as to need....
The new atheists that were prominent in the late 90's and through the 2000's have taken away the faith of many by convincing people
that the world is only made of material matter and that there is no God. They have taken the soul and conscience of man and determined that there is nothing there but only us.

The young are seeking for some reason for their life.
The new atheists are not so popular anymore and, maybe, transcendendence is returning to our attention.
Why?
Because they took everything away and REPLACED IT WITH NOTHING.
And man cannot live with nothing because he is made in the image of his creator and NEEDS his creator to be complete.

 

[Seabass]

WHAT makes man become aware of God if the reformed are wrong?

The Bible....'in the beginning God"....

 

[Seabass]

John 6:44 – Οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.
1. Οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν (oudeis dynatai elthein) – "No one is able to come"

Joh 6:44 no-one G3762 a_ Nom Sg m oudeis ουδεισ T1 Adj-NMS No one can G1410 G5736 vi Pres midD/pasD 3 Sg dunatai δυναται T2 V-PIM/P-3S is able To-be-coming G2064 G5629 vn 2Aor Act elthein ελθειν T3 V-ANA to come Toward G4314 Prep pros προσ T4 Prep to Me G3165 pp 1 Acc Sg me με T5 - - If-ever G1437 Cond ean εαν T6 Conj if No G3361 Part Neg me μη T7 Adv not The G3588 t_ Nom Sg m ho ο T8 Art-NMS the [one] Father G3962 n_ Nom Sg m pater πατηρ T9 N-NMS Father, The G3588 t_ Nom Sg m ho ο T10 Art-DFS the one-sending G3992 G5660 vp Aor Act Nom Sg m pempsas πεμψασ T11 V-APA-NMS having sent Me G3165 pp 1 Acc Sg me με T12 - - Should-be-drawing G1670 G5661 vs Aor Act 3 Sg helkuse ελκυση T13 V-ASA-3S draws Him G846 pp Acc Sg m auton αυτον T14 PPro-AM3S him, And G2532 Conj kai και T15 - - I G1473 pp 1 Nom Sg ego εγω T16 PPro-A1S Me, shall-be-raising G450 G5692 vi Fut Act 1 Sg anasteso αναστησω T17 V-FIA-1S will raise up Him G846 pp Acc Sg m auton αυτον T18 PPro-AM3S him The G3588 t_ Dat Sg f te τη T19 Art-NMS the Last G2078 a_ Dat Sg f eschate εσχατη T20 Adj-DFS last Day G2250 n_ Dat Sg f hemera ημερα T21 N-DFS day.

Joh 6:44 no-one01 can02 To-be-coming03 Toward04 Me05 If-ever06 No07 The08 Father09 The10 one-sending11 Me12 Should-be-drawing13 Him14 And15 I16 shall-be-raising17 Him18 The19 Last20 Day21
Joh 6:45 it-is01 Having-been-written02 In03 The04 prophets05 And06 They-shall-be07 All08 taught09 Of-the10 God11 N1 Every12 Then13 The14 one-hearing15 Beside16 The17 Father18 And19 Learning20 Is-coming21 Toward22 Me23

Οὐδεὶς (oudeis) – "No one, not a single person."

This is an emphatic negation using the absolute form of οὐδείς (oudeis), stressing total incapability apart from divine action.
δύναται (dynatai) – "is able"

Present middle/passive indicative, 3rd person singular from δύναμαι (dynamai) = "to have power, ability."

The present tense suggests a continuous state of inability, meaning humans do not naturally possess the capacity to come to Christ on their own initiative.

ἐλθεῖν (elthein) – "to come"

Aorist active infinitive from ἔρχομαι (erchomai) = "to come, to move toward."

The aorist infinitive refers to the act of coming rather than the process, meaning the verse is discussing the potential for coming to Christ, not merely movement toward Him.

2. ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν (ean mē ho patēr ho pempsas me helkysē auton) – "unless the Father who sent Me draws him"

ἐὰν μὴ (ean mē) – "unless"

This is a third-class conditional clause, meaning the action (coming to Christ) is contingent upon another action (being drawn by the Father).

ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας (ho patēr ho pempsas) – "the Father who sent"

ὁ πέμψας (ho pempsas) – Aorist active participle, nominative singular masculine from πέμπω (pempō) = "to send, commission."
The aorist tense shows a completed act of sending (i.e., the Father already sent Christ), which strengthens the idea that Christ’s mission is linked to this drawing process.

ἑλκύσῃ (helkysē) – "draws"

Aorist active subjunctive, 3rd person singular from ἑλκύω (helkyō) = "to draw, pull."

The aorist subjunctive indicates a specific act of drawing rather than an ongoing process.

Semantic range of ἑλκύω (helkyō):
Used for dragging nets (John 21:6) → Suggests effortful attraction.
Used metaphorically in Jeremiah 31:3 (LXX) → "I have drawn you with lovingkindness" (ἔλκυσα σε ἐν ἐλέει).
Not forceful coercion (contra Calvinism), but rather an influence that brings one toward God through divine teaching.
3. κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ (kagō anastēsō auton en tē eschatē hēmera) – "And I will raise him up on the last day"
ἀναστήσω (anastēsō) – "I will raise up"

Future active indicative, 1st person singular from ἀνίστημι (anistēmi) = "to raise up."
This is a prophetic certainty, meaning that those who come to Christ will be resurrected.

John 6:45 – Ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τοῖς προφήταις· Καὶ ἔσονται πάντες διδακτοὶ θεοῦ. Πᾶς ὁ ἀκούσας παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μαθὼν ἔρχεται πρός με.
1. Ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τοῖς προφήταις (Estin gegrammenon en tois prophētais) – "It is written in the Prophets"
γεγραμμένον (gegrammenon) – "It is written"

Perfect passive participle, nominative singular neuter from γράφω (graphō) = "to write."
The perfect tense indicates a completed action with ongoing results, meaning this scriptural truth remains valid.

2. Καὶ ἔσονται πάντες διδακτοὶ θεοῦ (Kai esontai pantes didaktoi Theou) – "And they shall all be taught by God"
ἔσονται (esontai) – "they shall be"

Future middle indicative, 3rd person plural from εἰμί (eimi) = "to be."
This expresses certainty that all will be instructed by God.
διδακτοὶ (didaktoi) – "taught"

Adjective, nominative plural masculine from διδακτός (didaktos) = "taught, instructed."
Only used twice in NT (1 Cor. 2:13, John 6:45) → Denotes direct divine instruction.
3. Πᾶς ὁ ἀκούσας παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ μαθὼν ἔρχεται πρός με (Pas ho akousas para tou patros kai mathōn erchetai pros me) – "Everyone who has heard from the Father and has learned comes to Me"
ἀκούσας (akousas) – "having heard"

Aorist active participle, nominative singular masculine from ἀκούω (akouō) = "to hear."
Aorist participle = A completed act of hearing before coming.
μαθὼν (mathōn) – "having learned"

Aorist active participle, nominative singular masculine from μανθάνω (manthanō) = "to learn, to understand."
Aorist participle = A completed act of learning before coming.
ἔρχεται (erchetai) – "comes"

Present middle indicative, 3rd person singular from ἔρχομαι (erchomai) = "to come."
Present tense = Continuous coming, meaning the response is not merely a one-time event.

Deeper Implications Based on Syntax
The Father's drawing (6:44) does not override human will but requires hearing and learning (6:45), which precedes coming.
ἑλκύω (helkyō) does not mean coercion but an effectual invitation through divine instruction.
Aorist participles (ἀκούσας, μαθὼν) show that learning precedes coming; thus, faith involves comprehension.
Present tense ἔρχεται (erchetai) implies an ongoing response to divine teaching, refuting the idea of an instant, irresistible conversion.

Conclusion
Christian Courier correctly rejects irresistible grace, but a deeper grammatical analysis reinforces that drawing is mediated through divine teaching, not mystical compulsion. The process is synergistic-God draws, man hears, learns, and comes.

I see you are drawing your conclusions from Christian Courier @Seabass-not taking a pot shot at you, and please spare me Calvin and his Institutes, I am not a Calvinist but do consider them brothers in Christ.

Your post is too long to respond so I'll leave it here.

Johann.

no one can come to Christ unless the Father raws him....

----Jn 6:45 seems to get looked overby some people, this verse tells HOW God draws and He draws by His word when men have been taught, heard and learn then men come to Christ. Nothing in the context says the drawing is irresistible or occurs separate and apart from God's word be taught, heard and learned.

----in it were not for the word of God NONE of us would know about Christ, the NT gospel or salvation. Hence God draws men when men have been taught, heard and learned the word of God, then men come to Christ.

---the first recorded gospel sermon in Acts 2, men were taught the word of God by Peter, they were taught, (instructed) heard (received information) learned (comprehended information) all while lost. Hence they were drawn by God's word by being taught, heard and learned then they came to Jesus by being obedient to God's word by repenting and being baptized. Nothing here that happen even remotely resembles Cakvinsim...no one was totally depraved unwilling/unable to be taught-hearing-learning, no irresistible grace, no salvation apart from the word of God being taught, heard, learned, no salvation apart from obedience to God's word.

 

[Seabass]

Wow.
If only you believed in prevenient grace!
All of the above would not be necessary,,,
and it isn't.
Because God does give us the amount of grace necessary to acknowledge His existence.
Sounds too reformed for you?
Think it over well.

that means all those that "know not God" and will be in flaming fire (2 Thess 1:8) will be in flaming fire because of God's failure to give them grace. Yet God has no culpability for the lost for God does not first have to act upon men before men are able to know and understand God and His word.

Hence you have God withholding from man what man must have to know God, then God throws man into flaming fire for not be able to know God because God did not give them the necessary grace to allow them to know Him.

Calvinsim is an attack against God, agiasnt His perfectly good, holy, just, righteous nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible....'in the beginning God"....

Seabass....there was no bible in the beginning.
There was no bible for most of human existance.

You could try again.