"Works Salvation"

[GodsGrace]

that means all those that "know not God" and will be in flaming fire (2 Thess 1:8) will be in flaming fire because of God's failure to give them grace. Yet God has no culpability for the lost for God does not first have to act upon men before men are able to know and understand God and His word.

Hence you have God withholding from man what man must have to know God, then God throws man into flaming fire for not be able to know God because God did not give them the necessary grace to allow them to know Him.

Calvinsim is an attack against God, agiasnt His perfectly good, holy, just, righteous nature.

I'm not calvinist.
And I don't really know what you're talking about.

You might want to go back and reread my post
or you could ignore it.

BUT,,,AGAIN....
HOW does man know that God exists if there is no prevenient grace?
Or call it what you may.

 

[Doug Brents]

Seabass....there was no bible in the beginning.
There was no bible for most of human existance.

You could try again.

The first books of the Bible were actually written around 2459 years after Creation. We are today around 5924 years after Creation (by my count). So the verse @Seabass is quoting was written around 3465 years ago.

 

[GodsGrace]

The first books of the Bible were actually written around 2459 years after Creation. We are today around 5924 years after Creation (by my count). So the verse @Seabass is quoting was written around 3465 years ago.

Doug
I'm not a young earth creationist.
The earth is billions of years old.
When we don't acknowledge this, we Christians are looked down upon as foolish.

The first books of the bible were written about 3,500 years ago - so you got that right.

 

[Seabass]

Seabass....there was no bible in the beginning.
There was no bible for most of human existance.

You could try again.

God spoke to Adam and Eve and under the Patriarchal age spoke to heads of families. The Gentiles would know of God's existence by His creation.

 

[Seabass]

I'm not calvinist.
And I don't really know what you're talking about.

You might want to go back and reread my post
or you could ignore it.

BUT,,,AGAIN....
HOW does man know that God exists if there is no prevenient grace?
Or call it what you may.

you posted: "Because God does give us the amount of grace necessary to acknowledge His existence."

are you suggesting man cannot know God exists unless God first acts upon a man by giving that man grace?

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug
I'm not a young earth creationist.
The earth is billions of years old.
When we don't acknowledge this, we Christians are looked down upon as foolish.

The first books of the bible were written about 3,500 years ago - so you got that right.

I am sorry that you don't believe in the Bible.

This is not the thread for this discussion, so this will be my only post on this topic here. If you want to discuss this further, we can do so in another thread. But:
The Earth is not billions of years old. It has existed just 5924 years. The only thing that could adjust this count would be which Pharaoh you connect with Moses or Joseph; this could adjust it a few years either way. But Adam, from his creation on day 6 from Creation to his death was 930 years. His son Seth was born when he was 130 years old. Seth's son Enosh was born when Seth was 105. Etc. all the way down to Jacob who was born 2109 years after Creation, Joseph who was born 2200 years after Creation, and Moses who was born 2374 years after Creation. Most archaeologists put the Exodus as occurring in the year 1446 BC. Since the Exodus occurred when Moses was 80, this puts the Exodus in the year 2454 after Creation. This makes this year 5924 after Creation.

 

[GodsGrace]

God spoke to Adam and Eve and under the Patriarchal age spoke to heads of families. The Gentiles would know of God's existence by His creation.

Actually, the bible states that ALL MEN will be without excuse when they stand before God because ALL MEN have been able to know that God exists, even without the bible and after Adam.

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Romans 2:13-15 is the same.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

 

[GodsGrace]

you posted: "Because God does give us the amount of grace necessary to acknowledge His existence."

are you suggesting man cannot know God exists unless God first acts upon a man by giving that man grace?

Actually, Christianity is the only religion where God FIRST reaches out to man,,,
and then man responds.

This first REACHNG OUT is what most call prevenient grace.
It's a grace that is given to every person, as for example in Romans 1.
It's just a measure of grace so that man can know that God exists...
not everyone is brought up Christian...and yet everyone around the world knows about
God and that there is this higher power.

I found this. Don't know if it'll help, I just skimmed through it but it sounds good.

In The Principles of a Methodist Farther Explained, Wesley uses the metaphor of a house to describe our spiritual journeys. Our justification by faith he calls the door. The conviction of our sin and recognition of our need for salvation, he likens to a porch.

Prevenient grace is the grace of the porch. It prepares our hearts and minds to hear and receive the gospel of Jesus Christ, and to respond in faith.

“This grace convinces them of being sinners who need God for forgiveness,” explains the Rev. Nday Bondo Mwanabute, professor of theology at Africa University, Mutare, Zimbabwe. “The Holy Spirit assists them to come to God and acknowledge God’s will and holiness.”

Wesley taught that God’s grace is available to everyone and not just a select few, as some of his contemporaries believed. Unfortunately, many resist God’s prevenient grace and never choose to come to Christ in faith to continue their spiritual journeys through the door of justification.
source: https://www.umc.org/en/content/god-at-work-before-we-know-it-prevenient-grace




Just saw this:




The word prevenient is an archaic English word that means going before. So prevenient grace is the idea that God’s grace enables people to respond to him. Prevenient grace is the thing that enables us to respond to God despite being dead in our trespasses and sins.

Prevenient grace goes out to everyone, enabling them to respond in faith to what Jesus has done for us. It is this prevenient grace that enables the believer to respond to the call of God.

The theory of prevenient grace was developed to reconcile the tension between God’s sovereignty and human free will. It allows believers to exercise the free will God has given us.

What Separates Prevenient Grace from Sanctifying Grace?​

Christianity describes several kinds of grace that God provides. Prevenient grace is a form of grace that only acts on a person before they are saved. It is distinct from sanctifying grace in that way. There is a change in the type of grace a person receives once they enter a relationship with God. The process of sanctification is still similar; it is still a yielding to God’s perfect will at our own expense. In sanctifying grace, however, the Spirit helps us as we become more and more like Jesus. Prevenient Grace is at the very beginning of that process.


Who Developed the Idea of Prevenient Grace?
The idea of prevenient grace developed in response to Calvinism by Jacob Arminius. He was a theologian who lived in the Netherlands during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. He and his followers formed a group called the Remonstrants, who went against prevailing ideas in the Reformed Church. The Reformed Church was rooted in Calvinism. At the time, it emphasized the Calvinist idea that God had unconditionally chosen who would believe, and he also condemned those who were not chosen.

Prevenient grace became prevalent because Arminius opposed the idea that God has already unconditionally chosen who would believe and who would be condemned. He saw predestination as an affront to God’s justice because he believed it made God the author of sin.

John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, further popularized it. Prevenient grace is a defining feature of Methodism. Most Pentecostal Churches also believe in prevenient grace. John Wesley saw prevenient grace as the first of three stages in the believer’s life. These were gestation (prevenient grace), birth (justifying grace), and death (sanctifying grace). So, prevenient grace is how God prepares the believer to respond to Him. It is the links in the chain pointing someone closer and closer to God.


Many theologians have expounded and added to the ideas put forth by Wesley and Arminius. A deeper look at prevenient grace can be found in Roger Olson’s book Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities.

Do We See Prevenient Grace in the Bible?​

Wesley frequently cited four passages in defense of prevenient grace. The first of these is John 1:9—Wesley argues that because the light gives light to everyone, the offer of salvation is given to everyone. Another verse that supports this is Titus 2:11. The idea that God’s grace appears that offers salvation to all people. The idea that salvation is offered to all people is a doctrine held by most Christians.

The third passage is John 6:44. This verse says that the Father draws believers somehow before we are converted. For those who hold to this doctrine, the verse implies a grace going before the believer, enabling them to respond to God. Those who oppose prevenient grace say that the drawing is irresistible, that the one being drawn will be brought in no matter what.
source: https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-prevenient-grace.html

 

[GodsGrace]

I am sorry that you don't believe in the Bible.

This is not the thread for this discussion, so this will be my only post on this topic here. If you want to discuss this further, we can do so in another thread. But:
The Earth is not billions of years old. It has existed just 5924 years. The only thing that could adjust this count would be which Pharaoh you connect with Moses or Joseph; this could adjust it a few years either way. But Adam, from his creation on day 6 from Creation to his death was 930 years. His son Seth was born when he was 130 years old. Seth's son Enosh was born when Seth was 105. Etc. all the way down to Jacob who was born 2109 years after Creation, Joseph who was born 2200 years after Creation, and Moses who was born 2374 years after Creation. Most archaeologists put the Exodus as occurring in the year 1446 BC. Since the Exodus occurred when Moses was 80, this puts the Exodus in the year 2454 after Creation. This makes this year 5924 after Creation.

Doug,,,I know all this.
I respect what you believe.
I have no wish to debate this with you.
This is not a salvific issue and is not very important to me.

You stated that I do not believe in the bible.
This is not very fair of you.
I believe in the bible starting with Adam...
that God created the first 2 human beings...and then so forth.

Did you know that Matthew skipped some generations and that he grouped the generations in
a numerical order?
But does it really matter?

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug,,,I know all this.
I respect what you believe.
I have no wish to debate this with you.
This is not a salvific issue and is not very important to me.

Belief in Scripture is a salvific issue. If you don't believe what God inspired His first writer to put down, then how can you trust any of His other writers or even He Himself.

You stated that I do not believe in the bible.
This is not very fair of you.
I believe in the bible starting with Adam...
that God created the first 2 human beings...and then so forth.

If you start believing the Bible with the creation of man in Gen 1:26, then you don't believe that the first 25 verses? So why draw the line with the creation of man? Why not start believing at the point where Abraham is called to leave Ur? Or maybe after Noah leaves the Ark (I mean seriously, a worldwide, global, all encompassing Flood is pretty hard to believe).

No, if you are going to trust in Scripture then you must believe all of Scripture, starting from the very first verse to the very last verse.

Did you know that Matthew skipped some generations and that he grouped the generations in
a numerical order?
But does it really matter?

Yes, it is common for historians to list major patriarchs and not every single generation. But the genealogies listed in Gen 5 and 11 and other places in Scripture make it very easy to follow the years between these major patriarchs, even if every generation was not listed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Belief in Scripture is a salvific issue. If you don't believe what God inspired His first writer to put down, then how can you trust any of His other writers or even He Himself.

If you start believing the Bible with the creation of man in Gen 1:26, then you don't believe that the first 25 verses? So why draw the line with the creation of man? Why not start believing at the point where Abraham is called to leave Ur? Or maybe after Noah leaves the Ark (I mean seriously, a worldwide, global, all encompassing Flood is pretty hard to believe).

No, if you are going to trust in Scripture then you must believe all of Scripture, starting from the very first verse to the very last verse.

I do believe all of scripture.

Yes, it is common for historians to list major patriarchs and not every single generation. But the genealogies listed in Gen 5 and 11 and other places in Scripture make it very easy to follow the years between these major patriarchs, even if every generation was not listed.

There are other methods. OK.
I just don't believe the earth began 5 thousand years ago.
Is that also when the big bang happened?

 

[Doug Brents]

I do believe all of scripture.

If you believe all of Scripture, then you must believe that what God said happened is what really happened. He created space and light on the first day, which was a 24 hour day consisting of one evening and one morning. Then each of the next 5 days was also a 24 hour day consisting of one evening and one morning. And on the 7th day of the Earth's existence God rested. Nine hundred and thirty (930) years later Adam died. There aren't millions or billions of years in six evenings and six mornings.

There are other methods. OK.
I just don't believe the earth began 5 thousand years ago.
Is that also when the big bang happened?

The "big bang"? That is a fiction perpetrated by "science" that has no basis in reality.

In the beginning God made time, and He made all of the physical universe, and all of the rules, controls, and powers that govern the natural world, along with all life, in six days. He could have done it all in a single instant, but He did it in six days. He could also have taken billions of years, but He says He did it in six days.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you believe all of Scripture, then you must believe that what God said happened is what really happened. He created space and light on the first day, which was a 24 hour day consisting of one evening and one morning. Then each of the next 5 days was also a 24 hour day consisting of one evening and one morning. And on the 7th day of the Earth's existence God rested. Nine hundred and thirty (930) years later Adam died. There aren't millions or billions of years in six evenings and six mornings.

The "big bang"? That is a fiction perpetrated by "science" that has no basis in reality.

In the beginning God made time, and He made all of the physical universe, and all of the rules, controls, and powers that govern the natural world, along with all life, in six days. He could have done it all in a single instant, but He did it in six days. He could also have taken billions of years, but He says He did it in six days.

The universe is not 5 or 6 thousand years old.
It's not necessary to believe the creation account to be in 6 literal days in order to believe the bible.
But it's OK if you do....like I said, I'm not willing to debate this.

A site I just looked up that agrees with YOU states this:
The truth is that both young-earth and old-earth interpretations rely upon certain assumptions. Sincere believers debate the meaning of yom in the creation account because a case can be made on both sides. This does not diminish the importance of what Genesis teaches, regardless of whether or not a person accepts young-earth creationism.
source: https://www.gotquestions.org/Genesis-days.html


The above statement is my position on this and I cannot go beyond my position.

Just for curiosity....what does Genesis 2:4 mean to you?

Which is also a different creation story BTW.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

I do believe all of scripture.


There are other methods. OK.
I just don't believe the earth began 5 thousand years ago.
Is that also when the big bang happened?

the big bang is mans carnal mind trying to explain how it began . I keep it simple
and just beleive what is written . Even those who first taught this big bang
knew it was hypothesis . I mean WHO was there IN THE BEGINNING . no man was
So i would just caution all to flee evolution and the teachings of men . Not saying you beleive in evil, evolution
it was just a reminder is all .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

I'm not calvinist.
And I don't really know what you're talking about.

You might want to go back and reread my post
or you could ignore it.

BUT,,,AGAIN....
HOW does man know that God exists if there is no prevenient grace?
Or call it what you may.

Could you please explain prevenient grace . I aint saying its true or false . I just have no idea what it means .

 

[GodsGrace]

the big bang is mans carnal mind trying to explain how it began . I keep it simple
and just beleive what is written . Even those who first taught this big bang
knew it was hypothesis . I mean WHO was there IN THE BEGINNING . no man was
So i would just caution all to flee evolution and the teachings of men . Not saying you beleive in evil, evolution
it was just a reminder is all .

The big bang has nothing to do with evolution.
Science is beginning to abandon evolution.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

The big bang has nothing to do with evolution.
Science is beginning to abandon evolution.

I didnt think it did but was not for sure .
But think about this for a second . HOW does man really KNOW that is how it all began .
What man was even there in the beginning , as GOD even tells job .
SO the truth is , the big bang IS carnal reasoning . Sure it might make some sense to the carnal mind
but that dont make it truth .
IF it says GOD spoke all things into existance , then i say we just keep it simple and teach that .
You are loved dear sister . NOW to the trenches for it is all out war for the souls of men .

 

[GodsGrace]

Could you please explain prevenient grace . I aint saying its true or false . I just have no idea what it means .

Prevenient grace, as some call it, is just the small amount of grace that man needs in order to know that God exists.
In Christianity it's God that reaches out to man,,,,in all other religions it's man that reaches out to God.

Without posting verses, which I can if you want....
I'll say that it is NOT what the reformed/calvinist teach.
They teach that God must change man's heart before he can accept salvation.
NO. This is not right. We accept God FIRST and THEN our hearts are changed.

Prevenient grace is a way for God to make known to us His existence.
It could be through nature,,,through reading a book, through attending a liturgy...
these are all graces that God could use to draw us to Him. (draw NOT drag).

God gives to each man an amount of grace necessary to be able to know that there is a God.
Then man has the free-will ability to either accept this God that created everything, or to deny Him.

God always revealed Himself, even before there was a bible....so the question is HOW?
With prevenient grace.

Romans 1:19-20.....is always helpful to me.
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

It could be known by other names....
Maybe some just say that God reveals Himself to us...
that would be grace, right?
Grace is just God's love shown to us...
He wishes that all would be saved...
so through His revelation of Himself ---
we could call this grace...
but a grace that comes BEFORE salvific grace...
which is the grace we receive in Ephesians 2:8-9

I can't explain it better than this....

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

The big bang has nothing to do with evolution.
Science is beginning to abandon evolution.

Be on gaurd sister . i have also noticed that
myself . But and here is the kicker
its always been said that by even looking at the creation THERE IS EVIDENCE OF GOD .
HOWEVER , science at best can show evidence of GOD , it just wont POINT to the ONLY WAY TO GOD .
I have chosen to preach ONLY CHRIST and HIM crucified .
Many now use science to prove evidence of GOD , the problem is Many often use this
to support the fact of this all inclusive god , the one that seems to be in kahoots with all religions .
You see its very clear by the evidence of creation THERE IS A GOD , A CREATOR Indeed
yet many religoins also beleive that and yet FOLLOW a false god .
Let us focus on the preaching of CHRIST rather than on wisdom of men . lest the cross be made of no effect .
I have long watched this sister . And i have long watched how THE NAME OF JESUS SURE NEVER IS MENTIONED .
Knowing there is a GOD is not enough , WE GOTS TO KNOW THE WAY TO THE GOD . As i am Darn sure you fully agree with that .
yes i am quite sure you agree with the dire need to BELEIVE ON JESUS the CHRIST . so be encouraged dear sister .

 

[GodsGrace]

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

This came to mind:
Jesus said that He would draw all men to Himself.
This is God's love doing the drawing.
God's love IS GRACE.
But Jesus is only drawing man to Himself....He will not force anyone to be saved as the reformed teach.
This drawing can be called prevenient grace.