"Works Salvation"

...the already saved must CONTINUE to obey God to continue to be saved/receive grace.
Respectfully Disagree, As Grace is UNmerited Favor, God Establishing The Eternal Relationship With
Himself, since "The Penalty of sin" Was PAID IN FULL By our Precious Redeemer. Amen?

Fellowship With God:

And Then, As The Scripture Saith, our CONTINUANCE in obedience is for "rewards" building upon
The Foundation Of Jesus Christ with Correct "building materials [ gold, silver, and precious stones ]",
accessing "The GRACE Wherein we stand" in order to Overcome "the [ Present Tense ] power of sin"
in this life.

Are all going to Continue in fellowship, as in the exhortations: "...we SHOULD walk..." (Ephesians 2:10
and Romans 6:4 AV )? Obviously not, since At The Judgment Day, we find:

Those "co-laborers with God" who build with INCORRECT "building materials [ wood, hay, and stubble ]",
suffer LOSS but:

"...If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer LOSS: BUT he himself
Shall BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 cp 5:1-5 AV)​

God Says "LOSS of rewards!" Not loss of Eternal Life *, Which is
EVERLASTING, Not
temporary, Correct, precious friend?

See more about Three Tenses Of Deliverance! here:

God's Simple Will!


*
God's ETERNAL Life Insurance!
+

And the Future "...He Will YET Deliver us [ From 'the PRESENCE of sin' ]..." is here:

Great Grace Departure!


Amen.
 
There you go.........

I do recognize God is immutable. I also recognize that Adam wasn't. Thusly, Adam was NOT made entirely in the image of God. Simple equation. So now apologize for your false claims above.

BTW the God. God isn't writing your responses. YOU ARE. I'm writing my own. I don't speak for God. I speak for me. You are speaking for YOU.

I'm going to ignore your other false comments about me. I'll do for you something you obviously will not do for me.....



Complete as they needed to be..... yeah. Right. Did they need to not sin?

You KNOW that Adam was incomplete without Eve. Thusly, Adam wasn't complete. Adam needed Eve. Trying to "talk around" this is useless.

Is there anything else that Adam needed.... AFTER HE FEEL????????????

There is a beautiful picture of the Grace of God here that you're missing......

Adam didn't have enough knowledge..... to not sin. He sinned because he didn't know what that sin would cause. He knew only knew that he loved Eve..........

Your doctrine is causing you problems.
Are you through babbling? I said what I did based upon your scornful way you approach others post, not just the one you posted to me, it is you MO which you are known for ~ enough said.
 
I'm Prima Scriptura. I start with the Scriptures. It usually ends there but I do generally adhere to "Orthodoxy" in the teaching of the Trinity.

I believe the authority of the "church" ended with the apostle Paul.
Sounds good.
I do believe the authority of the Apostles was passed on to the next generation.
IOW, I do believe the CC is the original church - but it lost its way through the years.
By next generation, I mean those that the Apostles taught...the ECFs.
I look to the ECFs when there's a conflict.
If they all agree on something...then I go with that and, yes, it's always biblical.
 
Are you through babbling? I said what I did based upon your scornful way you approach others post, not just the one you posted to me, it is you MO which you are known for ~ enough said.

Are you through babbling?... See. I can do the same thing.

You should realize that you're being scornful in your responses. There is no way to tell someone publicly that they are wrong without them being upset about it.

Call it "scornful" all you want. God has the record. I don't answer to you. Your assessment of me means nothing. My assessment of you means nothing.

Thusly.... why even mention it at all..... Unless you're losing the debate. Which you are. Which is why you're running away.
 
Sounds good.
I do believe the authority of the Apostles was passed on to the next generation.
IOW, I do believe the CC is the original church - but it lost its way through the years.
By next generation, I mean those that the Apostles taught...the ECFs.
I look to the ECFs when there's a conflict.
If they all agree on something...then I go with that and, yes, it's always biblical.

We can disagree. Nothing wrong with disagreeing. We can talk about it.. :)

I started a thread. Here is the link.


ECF have very little evidence for what they claim happened from the time of the apostles till about the 4th century. We can discuss the evidence. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
 
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so there is a synergy in man's salvation where BOTH God and man play a role in man's salvation,....God's role providing grace and man's role in having faith to receive GOd's grace. So Calvinism has always been wrong about salvation being monergistic.
Agreed.

We can see this synergism play out in Acts 2 in the first recorded gospel sermon given by Peter. God did not owe those Jews remission of sins, but gave it to them as a matter of grace. But those Jews had to have a faithful obedience in repenting and being baptized to receive God's graceful gift of remission of sins.
Agreed.
I am not sure what you mean by the unsaved are not required to obey God. No one HAS to obey God, no one is forced to obey God, but it is only those who choose to obey God that receive grace/saved.
I mean that the unsaved are not required to obey God...
they are ALREADY not obeying Him by not believing His word/the gospel message.
A person cannot be more lost than lost.
Christians, OTOH, are required to obey God.
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The above applies only to those that believe in God/the saved.
From verses like Heb 5:9; 2 Thess 1:8 we can see that obedience is separating line between the saved and the lost. The unsaved must obey God if they ever desire to be saved/receive grace and the already saved must CONTINUE to obey God to continue to be saved/receive grace.
You surely mean the obedience of faith in Romans 1.
Or the obedience to adhere to the gospel.
In that sense, yes, the unsaved must obey God's word in order to become saved.
Then we continue to obey.
 
Which is why you're running away.

Trust me, I do not run ~ especially so from you, since I have never seen one argument that I thought for a second I could not answer, or expose as false coming from you. You are more than welcome to test me. One word for you:

1st Kings 20:11​

“And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off.

I'm ready to put the hardness off after fighting with men like you for fifty years plus years.
 
Trust me, I do not run ~ especially so from you, since I have never seen one argument that I thought for a second I could not answer, or expose as false coming from you. You are more than welcome to test me. One word for you:

1st Kings 20:11​

“And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off.

I'm ready to put the hardness off after fighting with men like you for fifty years plus years.

You haven't been the same man for 50 years. If you have, then God help you...........

Those that know God change. You're not past changing yet.

What you believe is offensive to the Gospel. I'm not going to act like it doesn't matter.
 
Never said Adam was like God ~ Adam did not possess God's attributes, one which is immutability. But, according to the word of God, he was indeed created after God's image, which image he lost!
But Adam DID possess God's attributes.
God said:
LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.

What does this mean anyway?
It means that God has attributes that He passed on to man.

To make a simple list, it would look like this:
God gave to us
SOCIAL
CREATIVE
and SPIRITUAL attributes.

Would you agree that God is a social Being and that we also are social beings?
Would you agree that God is creative and has passed this attribute on to man?
Would you agree that God is a spirit AND spiritual (of course!) and that this attribute was passed on to us?

Of course each and everyone of them is tainted with sin and instead God is perfect.

It seem to me that you're stating that we do not have some of God's attributes.
I also could have misunderstood....
 
Gen 4:7 people clearly have the choice to choose to do well or choose to not do well. Hence sinning is a matter of a free will choices one actively makes. Sinning is not a result of birth whereby sinning is forced upon one innately by simply being born. Therefore man can justly, rightly be condemned for his wilfully choices but be unjustly condemned for how he would be innately born against his will.

There's two mistakes in your logic here.

Firstly, you are acting like somehow God OWES us mercy as a right. God asks of all people perfection, yet none can do it. So clearly it is not UNJUST for God to ask us something we cannot do. Plus to even insinuate that God doesn't have THE RIGHT to do with his creation WHATEVER he wants, without restriction, is to establish a moral law above God himself, and make your own preference and opinion more important than God's.

Secondly. you keep implying that total depravity means no one can respond. That is FALSE. The teaching of total depravity specifically teaches one thing: no one can respond WITHOUT GRACE. By the preceding grace of God, total depravity can be overcome, and all people can have their will restored and empowered as a gift of grace through Christ. Thus the teaching of total depravity is: people CAN respond but NEED grace to.

If totally depravity were true, then all those that died as infants will all be lost eternally in torment. No grace for them.

This is a false conclusion, it is not necessarily true. Since infants are a different class of people, the atonement can be applied a different way.

NO ONE, and I do mean no one WHATSOEVER, bypasses the Cross and Blood of Jesus and finds a way of self-righteousness to the Father.

There is not a verse that says one must first receive grace before one is able to choose to disobey God or choose to obey God.

False.

Christ very DIRECTLY and CLEARLY said that "WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING" and that "NO ONE COMES unless the Father draws him."

In fact there is hundreds of verses, a literal plethora, all attesting to the fact the grace of God always comes FIRST, and man does not work his way back to God.

It is only those who choose to obey God who THEN receive grace, those that disobey do not receive grace.

This is a horrific and terrible thing to say, a real bondage of self-reliance and self-goodness, a legalistic stronghold of self-righteousness.

Grace ALWAYS comes first, amazing grace, how sweet the sound.

There is no example of men FIRST receiving grace where they can then choose God.

Absurd, please OPEN YOUR BIBLE, dear sir.

Jesus said, "WHILE YOU HAVE THE LIGHT, believe in the light." Because when the light goes, they will no longer have that grace to respond. The grace of God has manifested to all men, as John 1 clearly tells us, the light came first into the darkness, and men hated it, because their deeds WERE EVIL. Paul said "But by the grace of God I am what I am," and that in himself he was the chief of all sinners.

No example of anyone receivng grace whi. continuing to live in defiance, disobedience to God's will....not one.

Irrelevant to the point I'm making that grace is always necessary.

You idea has one lost in sin unable to choose to obey God unless God first acts upon the person. Such makes God culpable for the lost when God has no such culpability.

Unable WITHOUT grace. Unable WITHOUT grace. This is an acknowledgement of an unworthy and fallen condition.

You and works-oriented legalists like you, always want to conflate what total depravity means WITHOUT grace so that you can sneak in the establishment of your own righteousness underneath.

God did not create Adam and Eve sinners nor create them totally depraved. They were created with free will and used that free will to choose to sin and eat of the forbidden tree, THEN they became sinners by choice, not forced upon them by how they were made.

Irrelevant to the point I'm making that grace is always necessary.

We become sinners in the exact same way as Adam and Eve by choosing to sin, not by how we were were created in the womb and innately born.

Absolutely not. It is not by bad luck and ramping up the difficulty level that everyone ends up sinning even when they are born perfectly holy.

Nor would it be right to say Adam and Eve HAD to sin inevitably, as that violates the definition of free will.

No, Romans 5 says ALL HAVE SINNED. Past tense, not "all will one day sin." ALL. HAVE. SINNED.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners (Rom. 5:19 NKJ)

ONE MAN.

MANY WERE MADE.

BY ONE, many were MADE SINNERS—BY ONE!!!
 
@Seabass
Yes. I think that by stating that grace comes after obedience some confusion will be caused.
But, anyway, good luck --- I think a book could be written on the above post to you.
 
Dizerner ~ Please explain from the scriptures your understanding of God's image, before I comment. Thank you in advance.

I'm still praying and thinking about what the image of God means.

But I know that part of that image is free will and self-awareness. Also a nature that is spiritual and eternal.

The capacity for certain attitudes and thoughts and relationships...

I refuse to "proof text spam" for you, for a number of reasons, and I think Scripture describes these things.
 
I'm still praying and thinking about what the image of God means.

But I know that part of that image is free will and self-awareness. Also a nature that is spiritual and eternal.

The capacity for certain attitudes and thoughts and relationships...

I refuse to "proof text spam" for you, for a number of reasons, and I think Scripture describes these things.
See my post no. 1849
 
Okay, that's good, because if you believe man is born sinless, by definition, you believe he can merit salvation. That's just definitional there.
There is no meriting when you are under Grace.
All babies are under Grace.

Your reasoning is not true, sin is what separates you from God.
Babies are without sin, so they have never been separated from Gods grace.

What Adam had is not what I have at all—the glory, the beauty, the perfection, I was not born into that, so why compare us.
You believe we are sinful because of Adam's sin nature imputed to us.

Why did Adam sin? He had no sin nature?
Adam was created sinless, by your logic he could only be meriting his salvation.
Bad logic.

Okay, that's good, because if you believe man is born sinless, by definition, you believe he can merit salvation
Adam was created sinless that does not necessitate merit.
Babies like Adam come to a point in their life where they choose by free will to go against God.
Then and only then are they no longer covered by Gods grace.
To get right with God one must repent of sins and more.
Then we are once again covered by Gods grace.


Gods grace has always been conditional, 2Thessalonians 1:8-9
 
Respectfully Disagree, As Grace is UNmerited Favor, God Establishing The Eternal Relationship With
Himself, since "The Penalty of sin" Was PAID IN FULL By our Precious Redeemer. Amen?

Fellowship With God:

And Then, As The Scripture Saith, our CONTINUANCE in obedience is for "rewards" building upon
The Foundation Of Jesus Christ with Correct "building materials [ gold, silver, and precious stones ]",
accessing "The GRACE Wherein we stand" in order to Overcome "the [ Present Tense ] power of sin"
in this life.

Are all going to Continue in fellowship, as in the exhortations: "...we SHOULD walk..." (Ephesians 2:10
and Romans 6:4 AV )? Obviously not, since At The Judgment Day, we find:

Those "co-laborers with God" who build with INCORRECT "building materials [ wood, hay, and stubble ]",
suffer LOSS but:

"...If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer LOSS: BUT he himself
Shall BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 cp 5:1-5 AV)​

God Says "LOSS of rewards!" Not loss of Eternal Life *, Which is
EVERLASTING, Not
temporary, Correct, precious friend?

See more about Three Tenses Of Deliverance! here:

God's Simple Will!


*
God's ETERNAL Life Insurance!
+

And the Future "...He Will YET Deliver us [ From 'the PRESENCE of sin' ]..." is here:

Great Grace Departure!


Amen.
Gen 6:8 Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. In v11 the earth became corrupt whereas God was going to destroy. Yet God told Noah to build an ark to save his family from the flood. Would Noah have CONTINUED to find grace in the eyes of the Lord had he disobeyed and NOT built the ark as God commanded him? No. He would have disobeyed God and would have died in the flood and be lost with all the unrighteous people.
 
Christians, OTOH, are required to obey God.
earlier I posted the Christian must CONTINUE to obey God to continue to receive God's grace


You posted : "Respectfully Disagree,"

But above you say Christians are to obey God. Can Christian disobey God and continue to be in God's grace? No.

One CONDITIONALLY receives God's grace by obeying so it only makes sense one must CONDITIONALLY continue to obey God to continue in God's grace.
 

What does it mean that we were by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3)?​

children of wrath
Answer

Paul calls all of us “children of wrath” in Ephesians 2:3 because, prior to knowing Christ, everyone was under the judgment of God. Because of Adam’s original sin and the way we continued to sin against one another and against God, we all deserved God’s wrath. God is just, and the just response to our sins is condemnation. Thankfully, God is also merciful, and He did not leave us in our pitiful condition. Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins, so that anyone who accepts His gift of grace will never have to pay the wages of sin, which is death (Romans 6:23a). We will circle back to that, but first, let’s explore Paul’s intriguing statement that we “were by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3, ESV).

In Ephesians 2:1–3, Paul is recounting the desperate state of his readers prior to their salvation. We were all, regardless of creed, race, nationality, wealth, or status, “dead in [our] offenses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1, NASB). Following this grim diagnosis of the human condition, Paul writes, “Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest” (Ephesians 2:3, NASB). Some scholars believe that the we in this passage is a reference to Paul’s people, the Jews, in contrast to his Gentile readers. Others believe that he was simply including himself and his coworkers or fellow believers in the picture. Either way, the words all and just as the rest make Paul’s main point clear: every Christian was once a “child of wrath.”

In Paul’s culture, referring to someone as the “child of” something in a metaphorical sense meant that particular something thoroughly characterized that person. The thing a person was the “child of” defined him and his destiny. For example, in the Old Testament, David literally proclaims someone to be a “child of death”; in other words, David proclaimed that person to be destined for death—he deserved to die (2 Samuel 12:5). Another example comes when Paul urges Christians to live as “children of light,” or as people defined by their association with the truth and holiness of Christ (Ephesians 5:8). As unbelievers, we were “children of wrath”; the thing that characterized us was God’s wrath. Our destiny was separation from God, and we deserved it. The phrase by nature in Ephesians 2:3 emphasizes the sorry state we were in from birth.

Thanks be to God, He did not leave us in a hopeless state! He stepped in and saved us, rescuing us from the great trouble we created. Jesus died on the cross, taking our sins upon Himself, and then rose again, defeating death. Anyone who comes to Him will be saved (Romans 10:9–13). Because of God’s gift, we are no longer children of wrath, but children of God, adopted into His family and given eternal life with Him (Galatians 3:26–29; 1 John 3:1–3). In His grace, “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Paul marvels at the magnitude of what God has done for us former children of wrath: “Because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4–7).

Do you know Jesus Christ? There is no reason for you to stay in the desperate place described in Ephesians 2:1–3, when the blessings of Ephesians 2:4–10 are waiting for you. God invites you to come to Him and accept His free gift of grace through faith in His Son. Come to Him today!
 
There's two mistakes in your logic here.

Firstly, you are acting like somehow God OWES us mercy as a right. God asks of all people perfection, yet none can do it. So clearly it is not UNJUST for God to ask us something we cannot do. Plus to even insinuate that God doesn't have THE RIGHT to do with his creation WHATEVER he wants, without restriction, is to establish a moral law above God himself, and make your own preference and opinion more important than God's.
False, I never said God owes man anything.

Your claim is also false that God requires perfect, flawless sinless on part of man to be saved.

What I did say is God requires a faithful obedience from the Christian, not perfect sinless. God also requires the Christian to repent of his sins when he falls short and does sin.

You say God has a right to do with His creation as He pleases, so you say God causes His creation to be sinful then punishes his creation for how He made them? If God does treat his creation this way, where does the BIble say God treats his creation this way


Secondly. you keep implying that total depravity means no one can respond. That is FALSE. The teaching of total depravity specifically teaches one thing: no one can respond WITHOUT GRACE. By the preceding grace of God, total depravity can be overcome, and all people can have their will restored and empowered as a gift of grace through Christ. Thus the teaching of total depravity is: people CAN respond but NEED grace to.
One cannot do anything that depraved nature will allow and a depraved nature would not allow a person to be able or willing to hear God or obey God.

There is no verse that says God must first act upon a person before that person can respond to God's will. No one is born depraved but born with the ability to choose to do as GOd says and be saved or choose to reject God's will and be lost.


This is a false conclusion, it is not necessarily true. Since infants are a different class of people, the atonement can be applied a different way.

NO ONE, and I do mean no one WHATSOEVER, bypasses the Cross and Blood of Jesus and finds a way of self-righteousness to the Father.

you say infants are different class of people......you make this up out of the air. Total depravity says all are born totally depraved therefore those that die as infants would be lost.
False.

Christ very DIRECTLY and CLEARLY said that "WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING" and that "NO ONE COMES unless the Father draws him."

In fact there is hundreds of verses, a literal plethora, all attesting to the fact the grace of God always comes FIRST, and man does not work his way back to God.
John 15:5 does not say man can do nothing unless God first acts upon man. In the context, Christ is addressing those who are His disciples (v3) those already clean by His word and teaches them the importance of bearing fruit. A disciple (branch) apart from the Vine (Christ) cannot bear fruit for a branch cannot bear fruit of itself apart from the Vine. The context is limited to the disciples (by extension all Christians) about bearing fruit, it does not mean man has no ability to choose to do well or not do well, Gen 4:7
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Rom 2:14 those Gentiles back in the OT times were able to make moral decisions apart from Christianity. Acts 10, Cornelius feared God, prayed to God always but he was lost..he was obviously not totally depraved.

Jn 6:45 God draws by His word when men have been taught, heard and learn, then men come to Christ. There is no drawing done by God apart from his word being taught heard and learned. There is no irresistible drawing apart from the word.


This is a horrific and terrible thing to say, a real bondage of self-reliance and self-goodness, a legalistic stronghold of self-righteousness.

Grace ALWAYS comes first, amazing grace, how sweet the sound.



Absurd, please OPEN YOUR BIBLE, dear sir.

Jesus said, "WHILE YOU HAVE THE LIGHT, believe in the light." Because when the light goes, they will no longer have that grace to respond. The grace of God has manifested to all men, as John 1 clearly tells us, the light came first into the darkness, and men hated it, because their deeds WERE EVIL. Paul said "But by the grace of God I am what I am," and that in himself he was the chief of all sinners.



Irrelevant to the point I'm making that grace is always necessary.



Unable WITHOUT grace. Unable WITHOUT grace. This is an acknowledgement of an unworthy and fallen condition.

You and works-oriented legalists like you, always want to conflate what total depravity means WITHOUT grace so that you can sneak in the establishment of your own righteousness underneath.



Irrelevant to the point I'm making that grace is always necessary.



Absolutely not. It is not by bad luck and ramping up the difficulty level that everyone ends up sinning even when they are born perfectly holy.

Nor would it be right to say Adam and Eve HAD to sin inevitably, as that violates the definition of free will.

No, Romans 5 says ALL HAVE SINNED. Past tense, not "all will one day sin." ALL. HAVE. SINNED.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners (Rom. 5:19 NKJ)

ONE MAN.

MANY WERE MADE.

BY ONE, many were MADE SINNERS—BY ONE!!!
God, who cannot lie, has promised to save those that obey him (Heb 5:9) and condemn those that do not obey (2 Thess 1:8). So why do you say it is a horrible thing that God keeps His promises and saves only those that obey Him?

Romans 5:19
"(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, (b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

.... says NOTHING about men being made sinners UNconditionally or being made righteous UNconditionally. You add the idea of Unconditional.

....if 19a is true then 19b is equally true. If all are made sinners UNconditionally per (a) then it's equally true all will also be made righteous UNconditionally and be saved per (b) and you are pushing Universalism. If you want UNconditional sin for all per (a) then you must have UNcondtional righteous for all per (b) else you are not being consistent with your false interpretation of the verse.

....men are made sinners for having chosen to sin (V12) and are made righteous for choosing to have faith (Rom 5:1). Again, Adam was not created a sinner but was made a sinner by his own choice in disobeying God. We today become sinners following in Adam's footsteps by choosing to disobey God.
 
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