"Works Salvation"

[Salty]

Always remember and never forget that the practical outworkings of progressive Christian beliefs lead to some dangerous places.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi,


Yes, God does not UNconditionally extend grace to all men, only those men who first CONDITIONALLY obey God receives grace. Tts 2:11
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". Then why are all men not saved? For all will not obey God and receive grace.



Belief and faith are essentially the same thing..belief is the verb form and faith the noun form.

Therefore belief/faith must include obedience (repentance, confession, baptism) in order to receive God's grace.



God gave us His word, the Bible, by grace and that Bible tells us God exists therefore in that sense it can be said we know of God's existence by grace. But just giving us His word the Bible does not automatically, unconditionally save all men. It requires OBEDIENCE to God's word to receive saving grace and only those men who obey receive saving grace. It can be said by God's grace we all have air to breath and thereby live but that grace whereby we ALL have physical life does not mean ALL men are UNconditionally saved. Again, only those that obey God's word receive saving grace.

Hence the idea of a "sinner saved by grace" is NOT found in the Bible. Sinners are those who CONTINUE to live in defiance, disobedience to God's will, hence sinners are lost having not received grace. Christians are those who have already complied to God's will therefore have received grace thus it is "Christians saved by grace" that is Biblical.

Ok
I think we agree and we're discussing a nuance here...
but just to clarify:

Eph 2:8 we are saved by God's grace through the instrument of faith.

It is God's goodness toward man that He even allows us to be saved.
We are saved by faith in Him...we can't say we're saved by His grace directly because that would be the reformed teaching.

Of course we then have to obey...
I think you're responding to Sola Fide and I'm not one of those that believes this.

I think you'd like
Romans 1:4-5
4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

The unsaved are not required to obey God.
The saved are required to obey God.

 

[brightfame52]

YOU are implying it.

Yeah, because man by nature is dead in sin. Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word nature physis also means:

1. birth, physical origin

 

[GodsGrace]

THEOPEDIA:

Heresy is a teaching or practice which denies one or more essentials of the Christian faith, divides Christians, and deserves condemnation. The term is derived from the Greek word hairesis, literally meaning a choice, but referring more specifically to a sect, party or disunion. Luke uses the term in Acts to refer to the sects of the Sadducees (5:17),Pharisees (15:5; 26:5), and even the Christians - called Nazarenes and the Way (24:5,14; 28:22). When Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, he refers to the divisions which cause strife in the church, while Peter links the term to false prophets and teachers.​

​

While there is a temptation for Christians to label whatever is not in keeping with sound doctrine as heresy, the Bible seems to make the distinction that heresy is not merely the opposite of orthodoxy. Rather, heresy is a divisive teaching or practice which forces those who call themselves Christians to separate from it or face condemnation for it. John the Apostle gave a prime example of such a doctrine: denying the true nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ (I John 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7-11).​

If I am guilty of HERESY, then you are required by scripture to have nothing to do with me. Is BAPTIST theology (beliefs on God and Salvation) comparable to those John warned about which denied the true nature of Jesus?

If you want to use the term, then OWN it and its implications. Otherwise, your hateful accusations are not dulled by your claims that you mean no harm.

The above is pretty much what I've stated is the definition of heresy.

HERESY IS A DIVISIVE TEACHING OR PRACTICE WHICH FORCES THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIAN TO SEPARATE FROM IT OR FACE CONDEMNATION FOR IT.

You posted 3 verses without posting the actual verse.
So how can I reply to them?

It's not a hateful accusation A....
Reformed theology is HERETICAL because it is not ORTHODOX.

The early Christians were working hard to establish what defined Christianity.
Heresies were attempting to completely break up/ruin/demolish the Christian faith.

Today, the Christian faith cannot be demolished.
It was established already 2,000 years ago.
A person must accept what the early Christians taught OR that person or belief system
is heretical.

And, as you've correctly pointed out, reformed faith in its entirety came about in the late 1,500's hundreds.
1,500 years or so after Christianity was already established.

So,,,no new revelation.

A belief is either
orthodox
or
heretical

No third choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

The 1689 Confession is non-binding.

Here is a quick lesson on what it means to be a Baptist (a church - local congregation - that believes these is a Baptists and a local congregation that does not is merely an Independent Church and not "Baptist").

Biblical Authority​

The Bible is the final authority in all matters of belief and practice because the Bible is inspired by God and bears the absolute authority of God Himself. Whatever the Bible affirms, Baptists accept as true. No human opinion or decree of any church group can override the Bible. Even creeds and confessions of faith, which attempt to articulate the theology of Scripture, do not carry Scripture's inherent authority.

• "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men,but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." ~ 1st Thessalonians 2:13

Autonomy of the Local Church​

The local church is an independent body accountable to the Lord Jesus Christ, the head of the church. All human authority for governing the local church resides within the local church itself. Thus the church is autonomous, or self-governing. No religious hierarchy outside the local church may dictate a church's beliefs or practices.Autonomy does not mean isolation. A Baptist church may fellowship with other churches around mutual interests and in an associational tie, but a Baptist church cannot be a "member" of any other body.

• "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." ~ Colossians 1:18

Priesthood of the Believers​

Every born-again believer has direct access to the throne of God. Therefore, since every child of God shares in the priesthood of the believers, all have the same right as ordained ministers to communicate with God, interpret Scripture, and minister in Christ's name. This is first and foremost a matter of responsibility and servanthood, not privilege and license.

• "Ye also,as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." ~ 1 Peter 2:5

Two Ordinances of the Church​

We practice only believer's baptism by immersion, which is the only acceptable mode for baptism because it alone preserves the picture of saving truth. No other form pictures the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Romans 6:1-5). We believe that the Lord's Supper is a symbolic ordinance, picturing Christ's body broken for our sins and His blood shed for our redemption. It is not a saving ordinance, but helps us remember His death, and inspires us while looking forward to His coming. It is to be observed by regenerate, obedient believers.

• "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me."
  ~ 1 Corinthians 11:23-24

Individual Soul Liberty​

Every individual Christian has the liberty to believe, right or wrong, as his/her own conscience dictates.While we seek to persuade men to choose the right, a person must not be forced to into compliance, realizing that it is not always the larger group who holds the truth when, in fact, our heritage as Baptists has demonstrated the worth of every individual believer.

• "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. ~ Romans 14:12

Saved and Baptized Church Membership​

Local church membership is restricted to individuals who give a believable testimony of personal faith in Christ and have publicly identified themselves with Him in believer's baptism. When the members of a local church are believers, a oneness in Christ exists, and the members can endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

• "Then theythat gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."..."Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily suchas should be saved." ~ Acts 2:41&47

Two Offices of the Church​

The Bible mandates only two offices in the church--pastor and deacon. The three terms--"pastor," "elder,"and "bishop," or "overseer"--all refer to the same office. The two offices of pastor and deacon exist within the local church, not as a hierarchy outside or over the local church.

• "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."..."For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus." ~ 1st Timothy 3:1-13

Separation of Church and State​

God established both the church and the civil government, and He gave each its own distinct sphere of operation. The government's purposes are outlined in Romans 13:1-7 and the church's purposes in Matthew 28:19 and 20. Neither should control the other, nor should there be an alliance between the two. Christians in a free society can properly influence government toward righteousness, which is not the same as a denomination or group of churches controlling the government.

• "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God:the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works,but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"
  ~ Romans 13:1-3

Enough A.
Let's discuss the bible.

I'm really not here for lessons on Confessions....
Thanks.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I did not say this ~ God did! Neither did I just happened to recognized God is immutable, God's own testimony declares Him to be so, this infinite attribute is neither in angels or men, impossible, but what would a scorner like you know about such truth? You cannot, unless it is reveal from heaven to men, and so far God has closed your eyes to much truth, even though you make loud boast otherwise, with proud words. Every forum has a man like you, you just try to avoid their ignorance and boastful words, for it serves very little as far as edifying young sincere believers.

Proverbs 14:6​

“A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.”

There you go.........

I do recognize God is immutable. I also recognize that Adam wasn't. Thusly, Adam was NOT made entirely in the image of God. Simple equation. So now apologize for your false claims above.

BTW the God. God isn't writing your responses. YOU ARE. I'm writing my own. I don't speak for God. I speak for me. You are speaking for YOU.

I'm going to ignore your other false comments about me. I'll do for you something you obviously will not do for me.....

Adam and Eve were as complete as they needed to be, being flesh and blood, and placed in a world that was in subjection to him, the only thing God did not do for Adam and Eve was to secure them in the state in which they were created, and neither was He under obligation to do so. Again the scriptures said:

Genesis 1:31​

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

They both were created on the sixth day, Adam first, then Eve.

Genesis 1:27​

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

Genesis 1, gives the day in which all were created, including Adam and Eve, both on the sixth day, one after the other. Genesis 2:18 is just revealing more of God's thoughts and manner in which he created our first parents.

Complete as they needed to be..... yeah. Right. Did they need to not sin?

You KNOW that Adam was incomplete without Eve. Thusly, Adam wasn't complete. Adam needed Eve. Trying to "talk around" this is useless.

Is there anything else that Adam needed.... AFTER HE FEEL????????????

There is a beautiful picture of the Grace of God here that you're missing......

Adam didn't have enough knowledge..... to not sin. He sinned because he didn't know what that sin would cause. He knew only knew that he loved Eve..........

Your doctrine is causing you problems.

 

[atpollard]

It's not a hateful accusation A....
Reformed theology is HERETICAL because it is not ORTHODOX.

Sorry, but there is a third choice (Heterodox).

I find accusations of HERESY sufficiently offensive that it is grounds to break fellowship.
All communication is terminated effective immediately.
You are commanded to have nothing to do with a Heretic.

Goodbye.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's rather surprising but both Luther and Augustine generally believed a Christian could fall away, unlike Calvin.

On Rebuke and Grace, Augustine wrote towards the end of his life:



And Luther wrote in his Commentary on Galatians:




In actual fact, it was Calvin alone who first birthed the modern monstrosity of Eternal Security into the theology of the Church.

Before him, only the Gnostics believed such a thing.

There are things that Calvin wrote that will make you think he believed in Unlimited Atonement. Most people just "run" with whatever they think fits their narrative. I know I've done it myself.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua

​

You are right, God did not make a mistake in creating human beings. Humanity made the mistake by turning away from God and becoming violent.

After Cain killed his brother Abel, God declared to Cain, “Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth” (Genesis 4:11–12). In response, Cain lamented, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me” (Genesis 4:13–14). God responded, “Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him (Genesis 4:15–16).
J. Chase Franklin, “Cain, Son of Adam,”

Cain’s line was terminated by the Flood, but sin remained after the Flood and God warned against killing people.

Genesis 6:17 - Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.

Yep. I will add that the influence of Cain remained upon the children of Noah. They knew the children of Cain and their wickedness.

Knowledge of evil/sin is difficult to combat. When we get saved, God doesn't remove such things from our minds and hearts. They leave a lasting impression upon us that is often unescapable. If we could, we'd stop sinning. We haven't. I'd come close to saying we can't. Once sin has its work in us, it nearly impossible to completely avoid sin. We know we can through Christ but we are such weak beings. Our flesh wars against our Spirit... and the SPIRIT against the flesh. We can see this war around us in the children of Satan and the children of God.

I was talking about sin to someone years ago and they said these words to me...

"Well. I didn't even know you could do that"........

That one statement changed my view of sin completely. I realized that when the Scriptures say......

Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

It speaking of how the law itself imparts the very knowledge of sin itself.

Tell a child that they can't do something they've never done before..... what is the first thing they try to do????????

 

[praise_yeshua]

Always remember and never forget that the practical outworkings of progressive Christian beliefs lead to some dangerous places.

I often fall in the middle. Many people think I'm very liberal but I'm not. Some people think I'm very "Right wing" but I'm not. I'm just trying to do what is right.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, but there is a third choice (Heterodox).

I find accusations of HERESY sufficiently offensive that it is grounds to break fellowship.
All communication is terminated effective immediately.
You are commanded to have nothing to do with a Heretic.

Goodbye.

Didn't even get to the BLASPHEMOUS part!
Reformed/Calvinist theology is also balsphemous.
According to the bible.

Guess we'll have to get to this at some point,,,
but not now.

And good try on HETERODOX...but it won't work here.

Heterodoxy is also an ecclesiastical jargon term, defined in various ways by different religions and churches. For example, in some groups, heterodoxy may describe beliefs that differ from strictly orthodox views but that fall short either of formal or of material heresy.
source: Wikepedia
Here's why it won't work A....
because, as I've stated, reformed/calvinist theology is diametrically OPPOSED to orthodoxy.
So your middle ground won't work here.
No middle ground.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Enough A.
Let's discuss the bible.

I'm really not here for lessons on Confessions....
Thanks.

Greek, Coptic, Roman.... ?

I identify with early Orthodoxy but I find fault in most any of them. We all must be our own people. There is no authority apart from God today.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greek, Coptic, Roman.... ?

I identify with early Orthodoxy but I find fault in most any of them. We all must be our own people. There is no authority apart from God today.

No,,,not Orthodox PYeshua...

orthodox: meaning what the majority has come to believe is the accepted version...of anything.
And orthodox belief.
Christianity has beliefs that have been accepted by Christians...
any new belief, by definition is non-orthodox.

I'm non-denominational.
I'd like to belong to the church that existed after Jesus died to about, maybe, 250AD....
but it no longer exists.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greek, Coptic, Roman.... ?

I identify with early Orthodoxy but I find fault in most any of them. We all must be our own people. There is no authority apart from God today.

Which, BTW, brings up an interesting point.
God is the authority.
Good.
How do we know what God wants when we all believe something different?

 

[praise_yeshua]

No,,,not Orthodox PYeshua...

orthodox: meaning what the majority has come to believe is the accepted version...of anything.
And orthodox belief.
Christianity has beliefs that have been accepted by Christians...
any new belief, by definition is non-orthodox.

I'm non-denominational.
I'd like to belong to the church that existed after Jesus died to about, maybe, 250AD....
but it no longer exists.

I can accept that. Good to meet you. I'm similar. I will say that "non-denominational" has become its own denomination. At least in my view it has.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can accept that. Good to meet you. I'm similar. I will say that "non-denominational" has become its own denomination. At least in my view it has.

I think this is a sad state of affairs.
I define myself as Protestant.
But there are so many "versions".
I THINK that if I had to really choose one "version" I'd
probably go with Nazarene or Assembly of God.
I don't think we could get more fundamental/orthodox than that.
But I live far away from all churches except the Catholic Church, which
I do attend at times. Unfortunately they've created so many doctrine that
I just don't find in the scriptures, so....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Which, BTW, brings up an interesting point.
God is the authority.
Good.
How do we know what God wants when we all believe something different?

I'm Prima Scriptura. I start with the Scriptures. It usually ends there but I do generally adhere to "Orthodoxy" in the teaching of the Trinity.

I believe the authority of the "church" ended with the apostle Paul.

 

[Seabass]

Ok
I think we agree and we're discussing a nuance here...
but just to clarify:

Eph 2:8 we are saved by God's grace through the instrument of faith.

It is God's goodness toward man that He even allows us to be saved.
We are saved by faith in Him...we can't say we're saved by His grace directly because that would be the reformed teaching.

so there is a synergy in man's salvation where BOTH God and man play a role in man's salvation,....God's role providing grace and man's role in having faith to receive GOd's grace. So Calvinism has always been wrong about salvation being monergistic.


We can see this synergism play out in Acts 2 in the first recorded gospel sermon given by Peter. God did not owe those Jews remission of sins, but gave it to them as a matter of grace. But those Jews had to have a faithful obedience in repenting and being baptized to receive God's graceful gift of remission of sins.

Of course we then have to obey...
I think you're responding to Sola Fide and I'm not one of those that believes this.

I think you'd like
Romans 1:4-5
4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

The unsaved are not required to obey God.
The saved are required to obey God.

I am not sure what you mean by the unsaved are not required to obey God. No one HAS to obey God, no one is forced to obey God, but it is only those who choose to obey God that receive grace/saved.

From verses like Heb 5:9; 2 Thess 1:8 we can see that obedience is separating line between the saved and the lost. The unsaved must obey God if they ever desire to be saved/receive grace and the already saved must CONTINUE to obey God to continue to be saved/receive grace.

 

[Seabass]

Yeah, because man by nature is dead in sin. Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yeah, because man by nature is dead in sin. Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word nature physis also means:

1. birth, physical origin

It does not say there were born in treasasses and sins...you assume that.

Nature can also mean "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature"

G5449 - physis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G5449 - φύσις phýsis, foo'-sis; from ; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usage:—(man-)kind, nature(-al).

www.blueletterbible.org

The context shows this is the meaning of nature. Those Ephesians had "walked according to the course of this world" and
"had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"...they had walked and lived in sin for so long it became part of their nature by habitually practicing sin, not by how they were passively born.
The middle voice of "were" shows their own involvement in becoming children of wrath, not how they were born against their will.

If they were born totally depraved, then they could not do more than that depravity allowed, and that depravity would not allow them to obey God therefore they would have no responsibility to obey God. God then would be unjust in condemning them for how they were innately born and holding them responsible for not doing the impossible in obeying Him.

 

[brightfame52]

It does not say there were born in treasasses and sins...you assume that.

Nature can also mean "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature"

G5449 - physis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G5449 - φύσις phýsis, foo'-sis; from ; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usage:—(man-)kind, nature(-al).

www.blueletterbible.org

The context shows this is the meaning of nature. Those Ephesians had "walked according to the course of this world" and
"had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"...they had walked and lived in sin for so long it became part of their nature by habitually practicing sin, not by how they were passively born.
The middle voice of "were" shows their own involvement in becoming children of wrath, not how they were born against their will.

If they were born totally depraved, then they could not do more than that depravity allowed, and that depravity would not allow them to obey God therefore they would have no responsibility to obey God. God then would be unjust in condemning them for how they were innately born and holding them responsible for not doing the impossible in obeying Him.

By nature , by birth, we are children of wrath, dead in sin, disobedient, at enmity against God Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.