"Works Salvation"

[atpollard]

The reformation rebooted a 5th century gnostic belief.
We'll start with heretical but it's going on 11pm here.
Tomorrow A...
Have a nice evening.

Have a nice evening.

Just for the record, we Baptists didn’t come along until the mid 1600s. We rejected Augustine and Calvin and Rome and everyone else and started from the Bible mass printed in English and people reading Scripture for themselves with the belief that we should DO what the Bible SAYS. So we really are not part of the Reformation, we came along later. That is why we Baptists reject so much of Church Tradition (because it is not directly found in Scripture).

We are the ultimate Sola Scriptura folk.

 

[Red Baker]

Funny how you say that Adam was made in God's image and then recognize God is immutable and Adam wasn't.

I did not say this ~ God did! Neither did I just happened to recognized God is immutable, God's own testimony declares Him to be so, this infinite attribute is neither in angels or men, impossible, but what would a scorner like you know about such truth? You cannot, unless it is reveal from heaven to men, and so far God has closed your eyes to much truth, even though you make loud boast otherwise, with proud words. Every forum has a man like you, you just try to avoid their ignorance and boastful words, for it serves very little as far as edifying young sincere believers.

Proverbs 14:6​

“A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.”

This truth is easy to see and understand.

You're conclusion is nothing but your vain tradition. That is what you were taught. You got that nonsense from someone else besides God.

Mr. Haughty scorner, It is where you cannot find truth, in the testimony of the Living God, whose wisdom is too high for you ~ besides, it is hidden from you from your scornful spirit. Yes, I was taught it by the Spirit of the Living God~ He that dwells in the hearts of contrite men and women. He is far from the house of the scornful man.

So tell me what other things was Adam missing besides immutability BEFORE he sinned........

Lets get that list going.........

Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

Mock these attributes that neither angels or men possess.

What I said was true. Adam was incomplete. Adam was made before Eve. Adam was not good.... before Eve.

It is not easy to argue with ignorance, besides, it is a waste of precious time, but just enough to shut your mouth I will do, but not much more.

Adam and Eve were as complete as they needed to be, being flesh and blood, and placed in a world that was in subjection to him, the only thing God did not do for Adam and Eve was to secure them in the state in which they were created, and neither was He under obligation to do so. Again the scriptures said:

Genesis 1:31​

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

They both were created on the sixth day, Adam first, then Eve.

Genesis 1:27​

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 1, gives the day in which all were created, including Adam and Eve, both on the sixth day, one after the other. Genesis 2:18 is just revealing more of God's thoughts and manner in which he created our first parents.

 

[Red Baker]

Have a nice evening.

Just for the record, we Baptists didn’t come along until the mid 1600s. We rejected Augustine and Calvin and Rome and everyone else and started from the Bible mass printed in English and people reading Scripture for themselves with the belief that we should DO what the Bible SAYS. So we really are not part of the Reformation, we came along later. That is why we Baptists reject so much of Church Tradition (because it is not directly found in Scripture).

We are the ultimate Sola Scriptura folk.

Before! Anabaptist...Waldensian; etc.

 

[Red Baker]

The Bible indicates that fallen man retains the image of God with respect to our value and dignity, which is God’s explanation for forbidding the wrongful taking of human life:

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image” Gen. 9:6

This statement was made after the fall, grounding the sanctity of even sinful human lives.

On the other hand, man has lost the vital core of the image of God in the form of righteousness and holiness in relating to Him. The result of sin, therefore, has been not the complete loss of the divine image but rather its thorough corruption.

Greetings Salty,

Man has lost that image in which he was created with, proven by the fact of the new birth, he is once again in the new man recreated after the image of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:24​

“And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

Again:

Colossians 3:9​

“Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”

The old man's (first Adam) image that he received after his sin, is totally corrupt ~ children of God are commanded to put on the new man which after the second Adam is created in true holiness, with spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

 

[Jim]

If they born again, then yes, if not, they did evil from their youth up.

Regeneration is strictly a New Covenant promise. In Ephesians, 1:13, Paul describes how we were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. There the Holy Spirit is called “the promised Holy Spirit.” The literal wording in the original Greek is “the Holy Spirit of promise.” This can indeed be a reference to the fact that in the Old Testament, as well as in the Gospels, one of God’s greatest promises was that one day the Holy Spirit was going to be given in an entirely new way, with new gifts for God’s people. This series of promises begins in Isaiah 43:19-21, which refers to this “new thing”:

Isa 43:19 Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. 20 The wild beasts will honor me, the jackals and the ostriches, for I give water in the wilderness, rivers in the desert, to give drink to my chosen people, 21 the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.

Then in Isaiah 44:3-4 the prophet explains that this is a reference to a new coming of the Holy Spirit:

Isa 44:3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants. 4 They shall spring up among the grass like willows by flowing streams.

Ezekiel 35:26-27 also speaks to this renewal:

Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

As recorded in the Gospels, when John the Baptist and Jesus begin to preach the coming of the Kingdom of God, they both emphasized that God is now ready to send this new gift of the Holy Spirit upon His people. This is the point of the coming baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:4-5). This non-water baptism was not a limited miraculous service gift meant only for Pentecost and Cornelius; it is actually just another term for the saving (indwelling) presence of the Spirit given in baptism (Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 12:13). This is also the “living water” promised by Jesus in John 4:7-14 and John 7:37-39. (Compare the “water” image with the promise in Isaiah, cited above, and with 1 Corinthians 12:13.) It is also “the promise of the Father” which Jesus mentions in Luke 24:49.

The Holy Spirit was working in Old Testament times, but only by giving service gifts to specific individuals. He was not present then within any believer as the source of saving power, as He now is under the New Covenant. The indwelling Spirit’s presence as a regenerating, sanctifying power began as a new thing on Pentecost and is now a main factor in our identity as part of the one family of God.

 

[Jim]

Man has lost that image in which he was created with, proven by the fact of the new birth, he is once again in the new man recreated after the image of Jesus Christ.

There is no indication that image was lost, that it ceased to exist. The is no doubt that image was damaged to some extent, but the image was still intact. God speaks of that intact image in Genesis 9:6. I think it is evidenced in God's conversation with Cain in Genesis 4 when Cain became angry at God's less than pleasant response to Cain's offering. He said,

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

That tells us that Cain was still in possession of a spirit in God's image. He was still capable of hearing and understanding God. I was still in command of his senses and reasoning to "do well". That image was damaged, which is likely why God did not regard his offering as acceptable as He had with Abel's. But Cain's spirit was damaged but not totally damaged, depraved but not totally depraved. Obviously, he retained the ability to "do well". He clearly chose not to and killed his brother Abel.

With respect to that image and the repair with the new birth, that was a promise given in the New Covenant.

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings Jim,

I'm leaving very shortly for a doctor's appointment which is at 8:15 in Greenville~I'll address this later, the Lord willing. I have not heard from you lately, trust all is going well with you.

 

[Dizerner]

I would see "the image of God" as "there is something about people that is in some way similar to some parts of God."

This does not necessarily include his holiness, so sinful things can bear a part of his image.

 

[civic]

It was very settled.
The reformation rebooted a 5th century gnostic belief.
We'll start with heretical but it's going on 11pm here.
Tomorrow A...
Have a nice evening.

calvin got allot of his teachings from augustine. I have several threads on the connection between them on the forum.

 

[Red Baker]

This does not necessarily include his holiness, so sinful things can bear a part of his image.

Greetings Dizerner~

This is impossible and I trust to add to this later today, after I return.

 

[Dizerner]

calvin got allot of his teachings from augustine. I have several threads on the connection between them on the forum.

It's rather surprising but both Luther and Augustine generally believed a Christian could fall away, unlike Calvin.

On Rebuke and Grace, Augustine wrote towards the end of his life:

"If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, “I have not received,” because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received."

And Luther wrote in his Commentary on Galatians:

"It is not enough to begin; we must also persevere. Therefore, let everyone so learn as to continue and persevere to the end. For the devil sorely assails those who are occupied with the Word, and would fain tear the Word out of their hearts. Therefore, let every man so exercise himself that he may be able to say: This day have I begun, and tomorrow I will continue."

In actual fact, it was Calvin alone who first birthed the modern monstrosity of Eternal Security into the theology of the Church.

Before him, only the Gnostics believed such a thing.

 

[Dizerner]

Greetings Dizerner~

This is impossible and I trust to add to this later today, after I return.

Even the demons bear a semblance of God's image.

 

[civic]

Even the demons bear a semblance of God's image.

can you explain thanks

 

[Seabass]

Before God changes our nature, this is the condition of our mind Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Thats why God must give us repentance, which is a change of mind.

People are not born with wicked minds. If people were born totally depraved then people cannot do anything more than that depraved nature would allow therefore man would have no responsibility in what he thinks or does. Then you/Calvinism have God unjustly, unrighteously condemning man for the way man was innately born.

Can a man born without legs be justly, rightly condemned for not walking? No, no could man be rightly, justly condemned if he were born totally depraved.

 

[Dizerner]

People are not born with wicked minds. If people were born totally depraved then people cannot do anything more than that depraved nature would allow therefore man would have no responsibility in what he thinks or does.

This is actually false, it does not logically follow. You are acting like grace doesn't even exist, and grace empowers all sinners to choose the good.

We must clearly differentiate what is possible WITH grace and what is possible WITHOUT grace, so we do not take credit FOR grace.

Now what possible motivation could there be for a man who says "I didn't need the grace of God to choose." Only one, pride.

 

[Dizerner]

can you explain thanks

The angels of God are also called sons of God.

When they fell, just like man, they still had a marred image.

 

[civic]

The angels of God are also called sons of God.

When they fell, just like man, they still had a marred image.

But scripture never says of the angels they were created in Gods image which is why they are not redeemable right ?

There is a huge difference between fallen man and angels.

 

[Seabass]

By nature we are disobedient, confined to disobedience Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word for unbelief here is also disobedience, its the greek word apeitheia:

1. obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will

The same word is translated
disobedient (3x). and one of those times is Eph 2:2

By nature we are concluded in disobedience/unbelief

The word concluded means: sygkleiō:

1. to shut up together, enclose
   1. of a shoal of fishes in a net
2. to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

We are imprisoned into disobedience, the only way to freedom is Gods Mercy of Regeneration, a new nature.


Unfortunately you cant freewill yourself out of the prison of unbelief friend

You can repeat Eph 2 a million times but it does not support your position the first time.

--The context does not speak to those Ephesians inheriting sin.
--The context does not speak to how those Ephesians were innately born, it speaks to how those chose to sin by choosing to walk according to the course of this world.
--the word nature refers to sin done through habitual practice (walked in sin) not how they were innately born.
--"were by nature", the verb 'were' is middle voice (like the active voice) meaing the subject (Ephesuans) were doing the action showing their personal involvement in sinning by chose not how that were passively born against their will. "Were" is imperfect tense denoting a continued action as viewed in the past. When combining the middle with the imperfect we have those Ephesians kept on making themselves children of wrath...a choice they actively made for themse;vest not how they were passively born against their will.

 

[Dizerner]

But scripture never says of the angels they were created in Gods image which is why they are not redeemable right ?

We must understand what "sons" means here, a son is a familial term.

Angels were not created robots and had free will, a part of God's image.

I do not believe this is the reason angels are not redeemable.

There is a huge difference between fallen man and angels.

Completely agree, but that is not to say there are not similarities.

Remember what Jesus said about our heavenly state:

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. (Matt. 22:30 NKJ)

 

[civic]

We must understand what "sons" means here, a son is a familial term.

Angels were not created robots and had free will, a part of God's image.

I do not believe this is the reason angels are not redeemable.



Completely agree, but that is not to say there are not similarities.

Remember what Jesus said about our heavenly state:

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. (Matt. 22:30 NKJ)

ok thanks for clarifying.