"Works Salvation"

[Salty]

@praise_yeshua

​

You are right, God did not make a mistake in creating human beings. Humanity made the mistake by turning away from God and becoming violent.

After Cain killed his brother Abel, God declared to Cain, “Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth” (Genesis 4:11–12). In response, Cain lamented, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me” (Genesis 4:13–14). God responded, “Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him (Genesis 4:15–16).
J. Chase Franklin, “Cain, Son of Adam,”

Cain’s line was terminated by the Flood, but sin remained after the Flood and God warned against killing people.

Genesis 6:17 - Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.

 

[Seabass]

This is actually false, it does not logically follow. You are acting like grace doesn't even exist, and grace empowers all sinners to choose the good.

We must clearly differentiate what is possible WITH grace and what is possible WITHOUT grace, so we do not take credit FOR grace.

Now what possible motivation could there be for a man who says "I didn't need the grace of God to choose." Only one, pride.

Gen 4:7 people clearly have the choice to choose to do well or choose to not do well. Hence sinning is a matter of a free will choices one actively makes. Sinning is not a result of birth whereby sinning is forced upon one innately by simply being born. Therefore man can justly, rightly be condemned for his wilfully choices but be unjustly condemned for how he would be innately born against his will.

If totally depravity were true, then all those that died as infants will all be lost eternally in torment. No grace for them.

There is not a verse that says one must first receive grace before one is able to choose to disobey God or choose to obey God. It is only those who choose to obey God who THEN receive grace, those that disobey do not receive grace. There is no example of men FIRST receiving grace where they can then choose God. No example of anyone receivng grace whi. continuing to live in defiance, disobedience to God's will....not one.

You idea has one lost in sin unable to choose to obey God unless God first acts upon the person. Such makes God culpable for the lost when God has no such culpability.

God did not create Adam and Eve sinners nor create them totally depraved. They were created with free will and used that free will to choose to sin and eat of the forbidden tree, THEN they became sinners by choice, not forced upon them by how they were made. We become sinners in the exact same way as Adam and Eve by choosing to sin, not by how we were were created in the womb and innately born.

 

[GodsGrace]

Have a nice evening.

Just for the record, we Baptists didn’t come along until the mid 1600s. We rejected Augustine and Calvin and Rome and everyone else and started from the Bible mass printed in English and people reading Scripture for themselves with the belief that we should DO what the Bible SAYS. So we really are not part of the Reformation, we came along later. That is why we Baptists reject so much of Church Tradition (because it is not directly found in Scripture).

Sounds like you rejected everyone and made up your very own type of Christianity....
This is what I would call heretical.

So, let's concentrate on heretical right now.
What does it mean?
it means NOT ORTHODOX.
Not in keeping with what mainline Christianity believes to be true.
What is mainline Christianity?
What the MAJORITY of Christians believe.

If one wanders off into his own belief system, this is heretical.

I know some use this word in a derogatory way...but I'm using it as it is defined.

You'd have to explain (if you want to) WHY your theology is not heretical.
We'd have to define Christianity first.
That will take us off into rabbit holes and I'd rather not go there.

Can you accept the true definition of heretical?

We are the ultimate Sola Scriptura folk.

If I remember correctly, you use the 1689 Confession.
Is this correct?
If so,,,how could you be Sola Scriptura?

Also, I'm going to be referring to reformed/calvinist theology.
There's really no other way of referring to this belief system...
no matter what nuances you may believe.

Also, I don't tend to go on for pages.
Once an idea is established....I'm pretty much done.

 

[Seabass]

You are ignoring the fact that Paul and God keep saying “ALL” and “NONE, NO NOT ONE”. That is not “some choose sin”. That is not “most choose sin”. That is ALL CHOOSE SIN. A 100% track record may mean nothing to you, but I find it a very significant statement for God and Paul to make.

All men choose sin, and only God can change that (as Ephesians teaches).

In Rom 3 Paul is proving Jews sinned therefore could not be justified by the law of Moses. Hence the Law of Moses is not the solution for justification for all who are under sin.

Verses 10-18 are verses taken from the OT and applied only to the Jews to prove they did sin. Verse 19 shows that verse 10-18 is not referring to everyone universally for everyone universally was not given the OT law, only the Jews. So verses 10-18 apply only to them who were "under the law" and it was just the Jews only who were under the OT law of Moses which Paul quoted.

The context in verses 10-18 Paul is NOT speaking to how men are born, he did NOT say 'born out of the way" but speaks to Jews being sinners by their choice to disobey God, not by how they were innately born. It would be unjust, unrighteous to condemn those Jews for how they were innately born. The Jews rejection of God was by their own choice and personal involvement in choosing to sin by rejecting God.

--Therefore when Paul said none seek God then he was not applying that to all men universally only to the Jews, again v19 proves this.

--Paul was not speaking to their inability to sin but speaking to their wilful sin in refusing to seek after God. The Jews had the ability to seek God but sinned by not doing so. I gave verses in my last post on this from the OT showing they could seek God. David whom Paul quotes sought after God.

--the Jews were even commanded to seek God as in Isa 55:6. That command implies ability for it would be senseless, sadistic and evil on God's part to give a command to the Jews already knowing it would be impossible for them to obey it, then punish those Jew for not be able to do the impossible in seeling God.

--it men are innately born depraved, that depraved nature would not allow them to seek God and thereby they have no responsibility to seek God. Therefore it would be unjust, evil and sadistic for God to condemn men based on how men were innately born, to condemn men for what man has no responsibility in.
It would be unjust, unrighteous for God to create men sinners then condemn men for the way He created them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Gen 4:7 people clearly have the choice to choose to do well or choose to not do well. Hence sinning is a matter of a free will choices one actively makes. Sinning is not a result of birth whereby sinning is forced upon one innately by simply being born. Therefore man can justly, rightly be condemned for his wilfully choices but be unjustly condemned for how he would be innately born against his will.

If totally depravity were true, then all those that died as infants will all be lost eternally in torment. No grace for them.

There is not a verse that says one must first receive grace before one is able to choose to disobey God or choose to obey God. It is only those who choose to obey God who THEN receive grace, those that disobey do not receive grace. There is no example of men FIRST receiving grace where they can then choose God. No example of anyone receivng grace whi. continuing to live in defiance, disobedience to God's will....not one.

You idea has one lost in sin unable to choose to obey God unless God first acts upon the person. Such makes God culpable for the lost when God has no such culpability.

God did not create Adam and Eve sinners nor create them totally depraved. They were created with free will and used that free will to choose to sin and eat of the forbidden tree, THEN they became sinners by choice, not forced upon them by how they were made. We become sinners in the exact same way as Adam and Eve by choosing to sin, not by how we were were created in the womb and innately born.

Hi Seabass
Your post was above one I just posted.
I agree with all you've said, but, if I may, would like to make a comment.

You say that we choose to obey and then receive grace.
I'd like to expound a little.

I like to say that we believe first and then receive faith (not the other way around).

As to grace...if we read Romans 1:19....it does indeed sound as if God gives ENOUGH grace to everyone in order for them to be AWARE of God's existence. Some call this prevenient grace.

Every person does indeed have the ability to believe in God or not believe in God.

IF they choose to believe and obey God...then that person has faith and will be born again, as we call it. Or spiritually alive, or regenerated, or whatever one likes to call this conversion.

Would you agree that some grace is necessary in order to be aware of God's existence?

 

[Seabass]

@praise_yeshua

​

You are right, God did not make a mistake in creating human beings. Humanity made the mistake by turning away from God and becoming violent.

After Cain killed his brother Abel, God declared to Cain, “Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth” (Genesis 4:11–12). In response, Cain lamented, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me” (Genesis 4:13–14). God responded, “Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him (Genesis 4:15–16).
J. Chase Franklin, “Cain, Son of Adam,”

Cain’s line was terminated by the Flood, but sin remained after the Flood and God warned against killing people.

Genesis 6:17 - Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.

This post gave me an idea.

Let's assume Cain was born totally depraved as some here on this forum claim. This means Cain could not possibly do anything beyond what his depraved nature would allow, meaning he could not possibly do as God told him to do. This innate, depraved nature means he would then have no responsibility to do as God told him to do. Yet God in Gen 4:11-12 is unjustly, unrighteously punishing Cain for how Cain was innately born against his will, God is holding Cain responsible for things Cain had no responsibility, God is sadistically telling Cain to "do well" (Gen 4:7) already knowing such would be impossible for Cain. God creates men sinful then condemns men for how He created them. Calvinism is very much an attack against the just, righteous nature of God.

 

[brightfame52]

People are not born with wicked minds. If people were born totally depraved then people cannot do anything more than that depraved nature would allow therefore man would have no responsibility in what he thinks or does. Then you/Calvinism have God unjustly, unrighteously condemning man for the way man was innately born.

Can a man born without legs be justly, rightly condemned for not walking? No, no could man be rightly, justly condemned if he were born totally depraved.

People are born with wicked minds, enmity against God, ungodly. We have a nature that is disobedient to God Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Why you think Jesus said a person must be born again ? Because by our first birth we are spiritually dead to God

 

[brightfame52]

You can repeat Eph 2 a million times but it does not support your position the first time.

--The context does not speak to those Ephesians inheriting sin.
--The context does not speak to how those Ephesians were innately born, it speaks to how those chose to sin by choosing to walk according to the course of this world.
--the word nature refers to sin done through habitual practice (walked in sin) not how they were innately born.
--"were by nature", the verb 'were' is middle voice (like the active voice) meaing the subject (Ephesuans) were doing the action showing their personal involvement in sinning by chose not how that were passively born against their will. "Were" is imperfect tense denoting a continued action as viewed in the past. When combining the middle with the imperfect we have those Ephesians kept on making themselves children of wrath...a choice they actively made for themse;vest not how they were passively born against their will.

All of us by nature are under the power of unbelief/disobedience.

 

[Seabass]

Hi Seabass
Your post was above one I just posted.
I agree with all you've said, but, if I may, would like to make a comment.

You say that we choose to obey and then receive grace.

Hi,


Yes, God does not UNconditionally extend grace to all men, only those men who first CONDITIONALLY obey God receives grace. Tts 2:11
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". Then why are all men not saved? For all will not obey God and receive grace.

I like to say that we believe first and then receive faith (not the other way around).

Belief and faith are essentially the same thing..belief is the verb form and faith the noun form.

Therefore belief/faith must include obedience (repentance, confession, baptism) in order to receive God's grace.

As to grace...if we read Romans 1:19....it does indeed sound as if God gives ENOUGH grace to everyone in order for them to be AWARE of God's existence. Some call this prevenient grace.

Every person does indeed have the ability to believe in God or not believe in God.

IF they choose to believe and obey God...then that person has faith and will be born again, as we call it. Or spiritually alive, or regenerated, or whatever one likes to call this conversion.

Would you agree that some grace is necessary in order to be aware of God's existence?

God gave us His word, the Bible, by grace and that Bible tells us God exists therefore in that sense it can be said we know of God's existence by grace. But just giving us His word the Bible does not automatically, unconditionally save all men. It requires OBEDIENCE to God's word to receive saving grace and only those men who obey receive saving grace. It can be said by God's grace we all have air to breath and thereby live but that grace whereby we ALL have physical life does not mean ALL men are UNconditionally saved. Again, only those that obey God's word receive saving grace.

Hence the idea of a "sinner saved by grace" is NOT found in the Bible. Sinners are those who CONTINUE to live in defiance, disobedience to God's will, hence sinners are lost having not received grace. Christians are those who have already complied to God's will therefore have received grace thus it is "Christians saved by grace" that is Biblical.

 

[Seabass]

All of us by nature are under the power of unbelief/disobedience.

The BIble does not teach such an idea for such an idea means man has no responsiblity for his thoughts and actions, no responsibility to obey God and such an idea has God unjustly, unrighteously condemning man for how man is innately born.

God does not create men sinners against their will then condemn man for how He created them.

 

[Red Baker]

Even the demons bear a semblance of God's image.

Dizerner ~ Please explain from the scriptures your understanding of God's image, before I comment. Thank you in advance.

 

[atpollard]

Before! Anabaptist...Waldensian; etc.

Yup ... Funny isn't it how God kept raising up groups of people drawn back to HIS WORDS in HIS BOOK. Almost like there REALLY IS a Holy Spirit living in His Children!

 

[Richard]

This post gave me an idea.

Let's assume Cain was born totally depraved as some here on this forum claim. This means Cain could not possibly do anything beyond what his depraved nature would allow, meaning he could not possibly do as God told him to do. This innate, depraved nature means he would then have no responsibility to do as God told him to do. Yet God in Gen 4:11-12 is unjustly, unrighteously punishing Cain for how Cain was innately born against his will, God is holding Cain responsible for things Cain had no responsibility, God is sadistically telling Cain to "do well" (Gen 4:7) already knowing such would be impossible for Cain. God creates men sinful then condemns men for how He created them. Calvinism is very much an attack against the just, righteous nature of God.

Good point!
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it.” Gen 4:7

Looks like freedom of choice to me. It takes looking at something from multiple perspectives to gain a full appreciation.

 

[atpollard]

Sounds like you rejected everyone and made up your very own type of Christianity....
This is what I would call heretical.

So, let's concentrate on heretical right now.
What does it mean?
it means NOT ORTHODOX.
Not in keeping with what mainline Christianity believes to be true.
What is mainline Christianity?
What the MAJORITY of Christians believe.

THEOPEDIA:

Heresy is a teaching or practice which denies one or more essentials of the Christian faith, divides Christians, and deserves condemnation. The term is derived from the Greek word hairesis, literally meaning a choice, but referring more specifically to a sect, party or disunion. Luke uses the term in Acts to refer to the sects of the Sadducees (5:17),Pharisees (15:5; 26:5), and even the Christians - called Nazarenes and the Way (24:5,14; 28:22). When Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians and Galatians, he refers to the divisions which cause strife in the church, while Peter links the term to false prophets and teachers.​

​

While there is a temptation for Christians to label whatever is not in keeping with sound doctrine as heresy, the Bible seems to make the distinction that heresy is not merely the opposite of orthodoxy. Rather, heresy is a divisive teaching or practice which forces those who call themselves Christians to separate from it or face condemnation for it. John the Apostle gave a prime example of such a doctrine: denying the true nature of the person and work of Jesus Christ (I John 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7-11).​

If I am guilty of HERESY, then you are required by scripture to have nothing to do with me. Is BAPTIST theology (beliefs on God and Salvation) comparable to those John warned about which denied the true nature of Jesus?

If you want to use the term, then OWN it and its implications. Otherwise, your hateful accusations are not dulled by your claims that you mean no harm.

 

[brightfame52]

The BIble does not teach such an idea for such an idea means man has no responsiblity for his thoughts and actions, no responsibility to obey God and such an idea has God unjustly, unrighteously condemning man for how man is innately born.

God does not create men sinners against their will then condemn man for how He created them.

The scripture does teach total depravity, man is by nature dead in sin, an enemy to God in his mind by wicked works Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Man is responsible to obey God, but he failed, and cant obey now, his nature wont let him. Now either Christ saves him, or he goes to hell soring up wrath each day he lives. Rom 2;3-6

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

[Seabass]

In Rom 3 Paul is proving Jews sinned therefore could not be justified by the law of Moses. Hence the Law of Moses is not the solution for justification for all who are under sin.

Verses 10-18 are verses taken from the OT and applied only to the Jews to prove they did sin. Verse 19 shows that verse 10-18 is not referring to everyone universally for everyone universally was not given the OT law, only the Jews. So verses 10-18 apply only to them who were "under the law" and it was just the Jews only who were under the OT law of Moses which Paul quoted.

The context in verses 10-18 Paul is NOT speaking to how men are born, he did NOT say 'born out of the way" but speaks to Jews being sinners by their choice to disobey God, not by how they were innately born. It would be unjust, unrighteous to condemn those Jews for how they were innately born. The Jews rejection of God was by their own choice and personal involvement in choosing to sin by rejecting God.

--Therefore when Paul said none seek God then he was not applying that to all men universally only to the Jews, again v19 proves this.

--Paul was not speaking to their inability to sin but speaking to their wilful sin in refusing to seek after God. The Jews had the ability to seek God but sinned by not doing so. I gave verses in my last post on this from the OT showing they could seek God. David whom Paul quotes sought after God.

--the Jews were even commanded to seek God as in Isa 55:6. That command implies ability for it would be senseless, sadistic and evil on God's part to give a command to the Jews already knowing it would be impossible for them to obey it, then punish those Jew for not be able to do the impossible in seeling God.

--it men are innately born depraved, that depraved nature would not allow them to seek God and thereby they have no responsibility to seek God. Therefore it would be unjust, evil and sadistic for God to condemn men based on how men were innately born, to condemn men for what man has no responsibility in.
It would be unjust, unrighteous for God to create men sinners then condemn men for the way He created them.

correction and edit to my post above:

In my post above, what I hi-lighted in red, it should read "inability to seek" not "inability to sin".

If the Jews were born totally depraved, then they could do no more than that depraved nature allowed and it would not allow them to seek God therefore they had no responsibility to seek God.

Hence Paul was not speaking to the Jews inability to seek but to their sinfulness in refusing to seek God.

If Paul was saying those Jews were born totally depraved, meaning they did not have the ability to seek God, then Paul just gave those Jews the perfect excuse for not obeying God in seeking Him. This excuse prohibits God from rightly, justly condemning those Jews for how they were passively innately born against their will and prohibits God from holding them accountable for not doing the impossible, prohibits God holding them responsible for seeking God when they had no responsibility to seek God.

 

[Seabass]

The scripture does teach total depravity, man is by nature dead in sin, an enemy to God in his mind by wicked works Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Man is responsible to obey God, but he failed, and cant obey now, his nature wont let him. Now either Christ saves him, or he goes to hell soring up wrath each day he lives. Rom 2;3-6

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

the verses do not say men are BORN spiritually dead in sin or BORN totally depraved.....you add that idea to the verses. Many verses speak to the wickedness and evil of man but NONE say man was innately born wicked and evil.

Men freely choose to do unrighteousness just as men can freely choose to do righteousness therefore man can be justly, rightly judge by God for what man freely chooses not by what is forced upon man by God.

 

[brightfame52]

the verses do not say men are BORN spiritually dead in sin or BORN totally depraved.....you add that idea to the verses. Many verses speak to the wickedness and evil of man but NONE say man was innately born wicked and evil.

Men freely choose to do unrighteousness just as men can freely choose to do righteousness therefore man can be justly, rightly judge by God for what man freely chooses not by what is forced upon man by God.

it doesnt say it, but its implied. And he is unable to change it, and he is held responsible, accountable to Gods law, every bit of it.

 

[atpollard]

If I remember correctly, you use the 1689 Confession.
Is this correct?
If so,,,how could you be Sola Scriptura?

The 1689 Confession is non-binding.

Here is a quick lesson on what it means to be a Baptist (a church - local congregation - that believes these is a Baptists and a local congregation that does not is merely an Independent Church and not "Baptist").

Biblical Authority​

The Bible is the final authority in all matters of belief and practice because the Bible is inspired by God and bears the absolute authority of God Himself. Whatever the Bible affirms, Baptists accept as true. No human opinion or decree of any church group can override the Bible. Even creeds and confessions of faith, which attempt to articulate the theology of Scripture, do not carry Scripture's inherent authority.

• "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men,but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." ~ 1st Thessalonians 2:13

Autonomy of the Local Church​

The local church is an independent body accountable to the Lord Jesus Christ, the head of the church. All human authority for governing the local church resides within the local church itself. Thus the church is autonomous, or self-governing. No religious hierarchy outside the local church may dictate a church's beliefs or practices.Autonomy does not mean isolation. A Baptist church may fellowship with other churches around mutual interests and in an associational tie, but a Baptist church cannot be a "member" of any other body.

• "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." ~ Colossians 1:18

Priesthood of the Believers​

Every born-again believer has direct access to the throne of God. Therefore, since every child of God shares in the priesthood of the believers, all have the same right as ordained ministers to communicate with God, interpret Scripture, and minister in Christ's name. This is first and foremost a matter of responsibility and servanthood, not privilege and license.

• "Ye also,as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." ~ 1 Peter 2:5

Two Ordinances of the Church​

We practice only believer's baptism by immersion, which is the only acceptable mode for baptism because it alone preserves the picture of saving truth. No other form pictures the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Romans 6:1-5). We believe that the Lord's Supper is a symbolic ordinance, picturing Christ's body broken for our sins and His blood shed for our redemption. It is not a saving ordinance, but helps us remember His death, and inspires us while looking forward to His coming. It is to be observed by regenerate, obedient believers.

• "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me."
  ~ 1 Corinthians 11:23-24

Individual Soul Liberty​

Every individual Christian has the liberty to believe, right or wrong, as his/her own conscience dictates.While we seek to persuade men to choose the right, a person must not be forced to into compliance, realizing that it is not always the larger group who holds the truth when, in fact, our heritage as Baptists has demonstrated the worth of every individual believer.

• "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. ~ Romans 14:12

Saved and Baptized Church Membership​

Local church membership is restricted to individuals who give a believable testimony of personal faith in Christ and have publicly identified themselves with Him in believer's baptism. When the members of a local church are believers, a oneness in Christ exists, and the members can endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

• "Then theythat gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."..."Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily suchas should be saved." ~ Acts 2:41&47

Two Offices of the Church​

The Bible mandates only two offices in the church--pastor and deacon. The three terms--"pastor," "elder,"and "bishop," or "overseer"--all refer to the same office. The two offices of pastor and deacon exist within the local church, not as a hierarchy outside or over the local church.

• "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."..."For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus." ~ 1st Timothy 3:1-13

Separation of Church and State​

God established both the church and the civil government, and He gave each its own distinct sphere of operation. The government's purposes are outlined in Romans 13:1-7 and the church's purposes in Matthew 28:19 and 20. Neither should control the other, nor should there be an alliance between the two. Christians in a free society can properly influence government toward righteousness, which is not the same as a denomination or group of churches controlling the government.

• "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God:the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works,but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:"
  ~ Romans 13:1-3

 

[Seabass]

it doesnt say it, but its implied. And he is unable to change it, and he is held responsible, accountable to Gods law, every bit of it.

YOU are implying it.