"Works Salvation"

[brightfame52]

The Bible does not teach such a an idea. Gen 4:7 Cain had the ability to well, God even told him to rule over sin and such would not be the case if man is innately born totally depraved, total inability. Again, total inability makes God looks senseless and sadistic by giving men commands to obey already know it would be impossible for men to obey having been born totally depraved then punishing man for not doing the impossible.

Those in Acts 2 were lost unless/until they had first repented and baptized for remission of sins. If you think they were saved before they obeyed God's command by repenting and being baptized per v38, then pin point the verse prior to v38 where they became saved and how and why were they saved in that verse. How are men saved BEFORE they obey God? Does God save unconditionally disobedient men? No!

Man by nature is a child of disobedience sir Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Man cannot change his nature to be obedient.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Man cannot change his nature to be obedient.

Is it the nature of a leave to be green?
If it was the nature of the leave to be green, why in darkness we see it black?

There is nothing in the leave to emit green light.
But it is in its nature to reflect green light (light in the spectrum of green) when touched by the light.

Touched by the light of God, man can reflect his attributes.

 

[atpollard]

Nothing in Jn 3 says man is innately born unable to do well.

Perhaps, but there are verses that explicitly state that 100% go on to choose to do evil. Quite a track record, isn't it?
[Certainly not a Libertarian Free Will 50/50 chance.]

 

[praise_yeshua]

Perhaps, but there are verses that explicitly state that 100% go on to choose to do evil. Quite a track record, isn't it?
[Certainly not a Libertarian Free Will 50/50 chance.]

I've never believed in a "50/50" probability. Faith is generational. So is unbelief.

Do you care to deal with your impact on this "equation"? I'm rather confident that you don't believe that you can actually be "at fault/why" someone has is damned or redeemed?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Perhaps, but there are verses that explicitly state that 100% go on to choose to do evil. Quite a track record, isn't it?
[Certainly not a Libertarian Free Will 50/50 chance.]

Sure, but people also show the attributes of God in several aspects of their lives, which let us know that God works in everyone.
Calvin called this "common grace". A grace that is not salvific but allows people not to be "as bad as they could be".
Common grace is a result of God's love. It is also a gift and, in contrast with what Calvin believed, it is salvific, as it creates the basis for regeneration. In fact, for many people regeneration cannot be tracked to a specific date or moment in their lives, but it has been a continuous process of God's grace.

 

[Doug Brents]

So, one question that can help us to understand this is the following:

Does God expect you to love the Sikhs, Jews and Muslims?
If He does, then we know that God also loves them, because Jesus establishes the parallel a your love to "enemies" (let alone Sikhs friends or Muslim friends) to the love of God for them.

I have an answer to you for this: Yes, God loves them, and He calls us to love them as well. But what does that have to do with anything? God loved us while we were sinners (He loves all sinners)(Rom 5:8-9). But His love for us while we are sinners does not indicate that we (or the sikhs, Jews or muslims) are saved. His love for us while we were sinners prompted Him to give His Son so that we COULD be saved, not that it automatically made us saved.

So yes, He loves those who do not believe in Him, and He will love them all the way to Hell if they do not love Him back. And we are called to love them, and do good to/for them, because in loving them as He loves them we may soften their hearts and bring them to love Him also. But if they don't, then they will spend eternity in Hell away from Him even while He still loves them.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I have an answer to you for this: Yes, God loves them, and He calls us to love them as well. But what does that have to do with anything? God loved us while we were sinners (He loves all sinners)(Rom 5:8-9). But His love for us while we are sinners does not indicate that we (or the sikhs, Jews or muslims) are saved. His love for us while we were sinners prompted Him to give His Son so that we COULD be saved, not that it automatically made us saved.

Hi Doug

Many Calvinists (not all of them) think that God does NOT love the human beings that He created and predestined for destruction.
That God loves only his elected. In this way, they prevent the paradox that God is torturing forever in hell those who He is also loving forever.

We know that, for simple statistical probability, more than 95% of Sikhs, Jews and Muslims that self identify as believers will die as Sikhs, Jews and Muslims.
This implies, for those Calvinists, that God did not love at least 95% of the Sikhs, Jews and Muslims, but created them as vessels of his wrath.
If God does not love them, why would a Calvinist love them?

I would like any of our Calvinists brothers to respond. For example, @brightfame52

 

[atpollard]

I would like any of our Calvinists brothers to respond. For example, @brightfame52

Could you define "love"?

Does God love sinners

• like I love listening to the rain?
• or like I love strawberry ice cream?
• or like I loved my wife on our honeymoon? [I am not just making this up ... a theologian once compared the "desire" of God for his "bride" to the "EROS" of a groom for his wife.]
• or like I love my daughter?

Is the love of God for his "children" (for whom He died and whom He has indwelt and sealed for redemption) really exactly the same as any "love" (however you eventually define so sloppy a term in English) for them:

Romans 1:18-32 [NASB]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. ​

​

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. ​

​

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. ​

​

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; [they are] gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.​

​

Do you really believe in one LOVE for all ... equal and identical?

Revelation 19:11-21 [NASB]

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it [is] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes [are] a flame of fire, and on His head [are] many diadems; and He has a name written [on Him] which no one knows except Himself. [He is] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white [and] clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." ​

​

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." ​

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And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.​

Is this His LOVE poured out on THEM?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Could you define "love"?

I don’t know if I could. Could you define love?
Let me give it a try…using three tools to describe God’s love for me, Pancho.

The first one is remembering the love of my father, Enrique, who died 28 years ago of a heart attack. He loved me so much… even when he punished me and showed me anger. Jesus compared the love of God like the love of a Father who makes rain and sunshine for the good and the bad.

The second one is by reflecting on the description of 1 Corinthians 13 (NLT)
Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out; Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
God’s love for me never gives up, endured through every circumstance, even when I turn my back to Him.

The third one is thinking in the incomparable gift of Jesus, who God sent to us out of love “For so much God loved the world…”

Does God love sinners

• like I love listening to the rain?
• or like I love strawberry ice cream?
• or like I loved my wife on our honeymoon? [I am not just making this up ... a theologian once compared the "desire" of God for his "bride" to the "EROS" of a groom for his wife.]
• or like I love my daughter?

Like you love your daughter, but still more. Perhaps infinitely more. I have two daughters, so I kind of understand your love for them.

Romans 1:18-32 [NASB]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness…​

…Do you really believe in one LOVE for all ... equal and identical?

No. I believe in a special, unique kind of love for each of us. God loves you in a different way he loves me. Yet, both kinds are beautiful, eternal and unmeasurable.

Revelation 19:11-21 [NASB]

​

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.​

Is this His LOVE poured out on THEM?

Yes, of course.
I believe that God punishment (described as his wrath) is also a manifestation of his faithful love.
I correct and discipline everyone I love. (Rev 3:19)
As fathers we don’t tolerate bad behavior from our daughters. But our intolerance to evil is a manifestation of our love for them.

So, my brother, going back to the question…
Does God love the Jews, the Sikhs, the Muslims…even those who die as Jews, Sikhs and Muslims?
Do you love me as a Bahai who most likely will die as a Bahai?

 

[atpollard]

So, my brother, going back to the question…
Does God love the Jews, the Sikhs, the Muslims…even those who die as Jews, Sikhs and Muslims?

Since you mean "all without exception" rather than some "from every tribe and tongue and people and nation" [Rev 5:9 NASB], and God has explicitly stated "The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates." - [Psalm 11:5 NASB] ...

No.

Do you love me as a Bahai who most likely will die as a Bahai?

I am sufficiently ignorant of the details of Bahaj to not hold any strong opinion on your ultimate fate, but even if you are ultimately damned for rejecting Christ [which I doubt is the case], I do not hate you.

However, that is not the same as being comfortable affirming your error.

If I hated you, I would ignore you and leave you to your fate. I speak the truth as best I understand TRUTH because I care.
But I love you as a person with the imagio Dei, rather than as a Bahai.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

But I love you as a person with the imagio Dei, rather than as a Bahai.

Great answer, my brother. I deeply appreciate it.

That's my point.
Our nature as human beings make us the object of love of those who live in Christ. People like you can't stop loving a person because of their doctrinal errors or misunderstandings.

If you love me as a person, despite my doctrinal error, we can be 100% sure that God loves me too.

Certainly, we must learn and examine critically our beliefs and practices every day, and leverage on this dicussions at the Forum to profit from a critical assessment and a learning experience.
If we stay in error because we desire to keep sinning, it is a clear sign that we have not been regenerated. But most people here who debate passionately about X or Y, do not do it because taking the position X or Y allows them to live in the flesh.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Great answer, my brother.

That's my point.
Our nature as human beings make us the object of love of all those who live in Christ. People like you can't stop loving a person because of their doctrinal errors or misunderstandings.

If you love me as a person, despite my doctrinal error, we can be 100% sure that God loves me too.

Certainly, we must learn and examine critically our beliefs and practices every day, and leverage on this dicussions at the Forum to profit from a critical assessment and a learning experience.
If we stay in error because we desire to keep sinning, it is a clear sign that we have not been regenerated. But most people here who debate passionately about X or Y, do not do it because taking the position X or Y allows them to live in the flesh.

Do you believe a warning is given in love? Have you ever warned someone of their impending doom?

 

[Studyman]

Man by nature is a child of disobedience sir Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Man cannot change his nature to be obedient.

It is written that even Jesus, "Learned obedience by the things HE suffered". Abraham "learned obedience". Paul "learned obedience". This is the whole purpose of the Gospel of God.

Romans 15: 16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles "might be acceptable", being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, "by word and deed",

2 Cor. 2: 9 For to "this end" also did I write, that I might know "the proof of you", whether ye be obedient "in all things".

1 Peter 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according "to the former lusts" in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; "for I am holy".

A child can roll over, crawl and walk without any teaching or learning, without any instruction at all. A child knows how to nurse, and seeks the nipple for this very purpose when he is only hours old. By God's design, it is created within the child to walk and nurse. But he will never do math, or spelling, or to obey, unless it is taught to do so. A child needs to "Learn in the way that he should go". God creates the child with a humility seldom seen in adults, which allows him to be taught. A child that is not taught to obey, as God created, is by nature a disobedient child and will grow up to be a child of Wrath.

This world's religious system doesn't teach this truth. But Paul did as the Scriptures I posted above show. Paul "learned those things" by "Yielding himself" to God, through His Son.

Matt. 18: 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall "humble himself" as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

A little child is "naturally" humble, eager to learn, God created him that way. But a grown man who never learned obedience to God, is not naturally humble. This man must "Humble himself" or "Yield himself" to God, that HE might be, as Jesus instructs, "Learned of the Father".

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that "hath heard", and "hath learned" of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is God's Creation, by design, that men "humble themselves", (as little children) or as Paul teaches, "Yields themselves" to God so that he may "Learn Obedience".

Luke 2: 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour "with God" and man.

Matt. 9: 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matt. 11: 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

So your adopted philosophy "Man cannot change his nature to be obedient", is popular in this world's religious system, and promoted by "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, as prophesied. But according to the actual teaching of the Holy scriptures, including Jesus and Paul, men have been "yielding themselves" to God so as to be "Learned of Him", since Abel. Hebrews 11 is full of examples of sinners, who repented and "learned obedience" to God.

This is how Zacharias, Simeon and Anna (Luke 1&2) all knew the Lord's Christ before HE was even born, they were all "Learned of the Father", not the religious sects or businesses of this world, in their time. And they "came to the Christ", before HE was even born.

 

[brightfame52]

It is written that even Jesus, "Learned obedience by the things HE suffered". Abraham "learned obedience". Paul "learned obedience". This is the whole purpose of the Gospel of God.

Romans 15: 16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles "might be acceptable", being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, "by word and deed",

2 Cor. 2: 9 For to "this end" also did I write, that I might know "the proof of you", whether ye be obedient "in all things".

1 Peter 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according "to the former lusts" in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; "for I am holy".

A child can roll over, crawl and walk without any teaching or learning, without any instruction at all. A child knows how to nurse, and seeks the nipple for this very purpose when he is only hours old. By God's design, it is created within the child to walk and nurse. But he will never do math, or spelling, or to obey, unless it is taught to do so. A child needs to "Learn in the way that he should go". God creates the child with a humility seldom seen in adults, which allows him to be taught. A child that is not taught to obey, as God created, is by nature a disobedient child and will grow up to be a child of Wrath.

This world's religious system doesn't teach this truth. But Paul did as the Scriptures I posted above show. Paul "learned those things" by "Yielding himself" to God, through His Son.

Matt. 18: 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall "humble himself" as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

A little child is "naturally" humble, eager to learn, God created him that way. But a grown man who never learned obedience to God, is not naturally humble. This man must "Humble himself" or "Yield himself" to God, that HE might be, as Jesus instructs, "Learned of the Father".

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that "hath heard", and "hath learned" of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is God's Creation, by design, that men "humble themselves", (as little children) or as Paul teaches, "Yields themselves" to God so that he may "Learn Obedience".

Luke 2: 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour "with God" and man.

Matt. 9: 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matt. 11: 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

So your adopted philosophy "Man cannot change his nature to be obedient", is popular in this world's religious system, and promoted by "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, as prophesied. But according to the actual teaching of the Holy scriptures, including Jesus and Paul, men have been "yielding themselves" to God so as to be "Learned of Him", since Abel. Hebrews 11 is full of examples of sinners, who repented and "learned obedience" to God.

This is how Zacharias, Simeon and Anna (Luke 1&2) all knew the Lord's Christ before HE was even born, they were all "Learned of the Father", not the religious sects or businesses of this world, in their time. And they "came to the Christ", before HE was even born.

Men by nature are disobedient, that does not and can not change! Also Christ was never disobedient not ever!