civic
Well-known member
absolutely false.
"Works Salvation"
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atpollard
Well-known member
You people are a LOT more emphatic about what GOD Does and Does Not do than I am.
I stand with Corrie Ten Boom: "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well".
civic
Well-known member
Here is why
Jeremiah 18 RSV- the reformed/calvinist translation
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
1- who spoiled the clay ?
It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.
Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,
“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.
The condition of the clay and the potter. God declares if you repent then I will not bring upon you these disasters/wrath/judgements.
Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relentand not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.
There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Calvinism's soteriology.
Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Conclusion: the context doesn’t support the Calvinists view, it actually refutes it.
hope this helps !
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
There are many reasons that God doesn't do what He wants to do....
1. Grace
2. Love
3. Mercy
4. Longsuffering
5. Kindness
6. Gentleness.
................................
You are the beneficiary of such. I am too. It is very hypocritical to recognize these for ourselves and deny it for others.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So you're not saying that God never does something?
atpollard
Well-known member
I let scripture state what God does and does not do.
"Always" and "Never" appear infrequently. ["and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh." - Gen 9:15]
- [Even that is something that God did once.]
brightfame52
Well-known member
Absolutely True
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
God always remains faithful, even when we are faithless. He cannot deny Himself as a loving Father. He will never despise a broken heart.
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. 2 Tim 2:13
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. Psalm 51:17
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
You said: “God doesnt call the reprobated vessels of wrath who He made for destruction to repentance. He desires and purposed their destruction.”
So I ask you when the prophets or messengers of God were given a radar or device to detect the chosen ones so that they could call to repentance only the elected for salvation.
I also ask you now why you haven’t rejected yet a god that desires the destruction of million of his children. Why don’t you rather convert to say, Hinduism? It is by far more moral.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
If it were absolutely true that the God of the Bible desires the destruction of million of his children, why haven’t you thrown your Bible to the trash can and abandoned such god? That would be the moral thing to do.
atpollard
Well-known member
I doubt you can find a theologian of ANY flavor that advocates what you just posted.
God LOVES His children (scripture is clear on this and verses are available upon request).
God’s judgement falls upon the children of the devil (scripture teaches this and verses are available upon request).
You are free to hate God for judging the children of the devil, that is your right, but it is EVIL to suggest that other Christians SHOULD.
brightfame52
Well-known member
A radar device ? Man what are you talking about ? You make no sense
brightfame52
Well-known member
I dont know what you talking about, God saved all the children of God, they were never the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. They were always the children of God/ the vessels of mercy. See the vessels of mercy are one group of sinners, and the vessels of wrath are a different group of sinners Rom 9:20-23
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Now explain how this has anything to do with the topic of the thread, "works salvation"
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I don't know how we got to this particular point, but I agree that it does not correspond to the topic "works salvation".
My apologies.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
It was just an example. It could have been any method by which God let the messenger, apostle or prophet know who should be addressed with the message of repentance and who should not.
I said "radar" as I could have said "Google Glasses" that the messenger wears and that put a halo on the elected, so that the messenger could know that such person should receive the call to repentance.
Let me know if I am making sense.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Among theologians who advocate the concept of being children of God in two different senses (by adoption and by creation) we can find those who have also advocated universal salvation.
Jesus clearly explained that being "children of the devil" means to desire to practice the works of the devil.
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. (John 8:44)
Actually, in Matthew 5:43-45, Jesus taught that the God exercises his role of "Father" over good and bad people, and that by loving even the bad guys, we can become children of God.
.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
So, we cannot say that God doesn't love bad people, those who are now slaves of the devil or children of the devil. Weren't the works of Saul before his conversion also the works of the devil? Wasn't the devil his "father" when he made all efforts to destroy the early Christian communities?
However, that didn't stop God from loving him.
brightfame52
Well-known member
What you saying doesnt make biblical sense. For instance a preacher who preaches the Gospel to a crowd of 100 people, say 10 of them God calls to repentance and gives repentance and faith, the preacher didnt know who the 10 were, thy just preached the Truth, and so happened God had 10 people there He wanted to bring to Faith in the Gospel.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Thanks for bringing the example so that I can be clearer on what I mean.
The preacher had no way to know who were the 10 who would respond. The preacher preached repentance to all.
So, your thesis that God's call for repentance is only for the elected is false, because God was making the call through his human instrument (the preacher). In every instance, God has encouraged his messengers to make this call for crowds, nations, without any distinction based on who has been already elected. Same with Jesus' parable of the wedding of the king's son. The king does not provide his servants any means to tell who will bring the proper garments and who will not. The call is for everyone passing by.
A God who would have interested in a selective call would have made the preacher know, in some way, who those 10% were, in order to focus the call on them.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
So, @brightfame52, one question that can help us to understand this is the following:
Does God expect you to love the Sikhs, Jews and Muslims?
If He does, then we know that God also loves them, because Jesus establishes the parallel a your love to "enemies" (let alone Sikhs friends or Muslim friends) to the love of God for them.
Does God expect you to love the Sikhs, Jews and Muslims?
If He does, then we know that God also loves them, because Jesus establishes the parallel a your love to "enemies" (let alone Sikhs friends or Muslim friends) to the love of God for them.
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