"Works Salvation"

[brightfame52]

Thanks for bringing the example so that I can be clearer on what I mean.
The preacher had no way to know who were the 10 who would respond. The preacher preached repentance to all.

So, your thesis that God's call for repentance is only for the elected is false, because God was making the call through his human instrument (the preacher). In every instance, God has encouraged his messengers to make this call for crowds, nations, without any distinction based on who has been already elected.

A God who would have interested in such call to reach only the 10% would have made the preacher know, in some way, who those 10% were in order to focus the call on them.

To me its common sense, Gods elect are all over the world, they dont wear signs saying, hey Im elect. No you just simply share the Gospel whenever God opens up a door of opportunity. And sometimes Gods purpose isnt a merciful one in sending His Gospel, it could be that to them it will be a savor of death unto death 2 Cor 2:14-16

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 ;To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Its still pleasing to God , a sweet savor, even if the hearers will perish

 

[brightfame52]

So, @brightfame52, one question that can help us to understand this is the following:

Does God expect you to love the Sikhs, Jews and Muslims?
If He does, then we know that God also loves them, because Jesus establishes the parallel a your love to "enemies" (let alone Sikhs friends or Muslim friends) to the love of God for them.

Here u go asking moronic questions, what in the world does this have to do with some people God created as vessels of wrath and some as vessels of mercy. What does this have to do with works salvation ?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Here u go asking moronic questions, what in the world does this have to do with some people God created as vessels of wrath and some as vessels of mercy.

Well, it would be a contradiction that God denies his grace and allows the destruction of people He loves.
I believe God loves the Jews, Sikhs and Muslims. That's precisely why He expects you to love them as well.
Our love and mercy cannot be superior than His, do we agree?

So, the very fact that God expects you to love them, indicates that God loves them.
And if God loves them, He will not let them become or remain vessels of their wrath forever.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, it would be a contradiction that God denies his grace and allows the destruction of people He loves.
I believe God loves the Jews, Sikhs and Muslims. That's precisely why He expects you to love them as well.
Our love and mercy cannot be superior than His, do we agree?

So, the very fact that God expects you to love them, indicates that God loves them.
And if God loves them, He will not let them become or remain vessels of their wrath forever.

If you condition salvation on anything you do or dont do, its a works salvation condemned by God

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you condition salvation on anything you do or dont do, its a works salvation condemned by God

I know. I'm just saying that God wants you to love Siksh, Jews and Muslims. That's why, when you are transformed into a new person by God's grace, you can't stop loving them.

 

[brightfame52]

I know. I'm just saying that God wants you to love Siksh, Jews and Muslims. That's why, when you are transformed into a new person by God's grace, you can't stop loving them.

If you condition salvation on anything you do or dont do, its a works salvation condemned by God

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you condition salvation on anything you do or dont do, its a works salvation condemned by God

I agree.
I'm not talking about the conditions for salvation but about its results, its signature.
I'm talking about how the born again man looks like. How salvation tastes and smells.
Salvation is about God's grace taking us from the undesirable state A to the desirable state B (eg from death to life, from depravation to holiness, from hell to paradise). So, I am talking about what that desirable state B, eternal life, looks like everyday on this earth.

 

[Seabass]

Man by nature cant obey God, impossible. So men whom God chose to save, He saved them by Christs obedience, His obedience makes them righteous, thats salvation Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again total inability is a false teachings of Calvinism. Again, the Jews in Acts 2 while lost were willing and able to hear Peter's words, understand those words, be pricked in the heart by those words, ask what to do to be saved and obey Peter's commands to repent and be baptized.

It would be senseless and useless on God's part to give men commands knowing it would be impossible for men to obey those commands then condemn those men for not being able to do the impossible. Such Calvinistic idea is an attack against the intelligence, just, righteousness nature of God.

 

[Seabass]

No, the Bible more closely reflects REALITY and teaches mankind's ACTIVE pursuit of sin and steadfast resistance to God's offer [absent the DRAW of the father].

[John 3:16-21 AMP]
16 "For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him]. 19 "This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For every wrongdoer hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned. 21 "But whoever practices truth [and does what is right--morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence on Him]."

• First key point ... PEOPLE [all people] sin and reject the light and flee from God [this is why they stand "judged already"]
• Second key point ... the exception is "accomplished IN GOD" [not in man] as John 6:44 explains more clearly.

Nothing in Jn 3 says man is innately born unable to do well.

 

[Seabass]

Once again, why would Noah, a just man and a preacher of righteousness who had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord refuse to build the ark? Noah would have drown in the flood if he chose to disobey God by refusing to build the ark but of course that was not the case. Deal with it.

Again, the issue is not about Noah ALREADY finding grace in the eyes of the Lord, but that he would NOT have CONTINUED to find grace in the eyes of the Lord had he disobeyed God and not built the ark. Who is going to argue Noah could disobey God yet Gd would UNconditionally save Noah from the flood anyway while Noah was in defiance of God's will?

People receive God's grace CONDITIONALLY thru obedience and continue in God's grace by continued obedience.

No unconditional salvation , no OSAS.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again, the issue is not about Noah ALREADY finding grace in the eyes of the Lord, but that he would NOT have CONTINUED to find grace in the eyes of the Lord had he disobeyed God and not built the ark. Who is going to argue Noah could disobey God yet Gd would UNconditionally save Noah from the flood anyway while Noah was in defiance of God's will?

People receive God's grace CONDITIONALLY thru obedience and continue in God's grace by continued obedience.

No unconditional salvation , no OSAS.

Faith is required that God will forgive you when you sin. There is this false narrative that exists in "works based salvation" advocates that make sinning children of God fearful to come to their Father.

That should not be true in our lives for Christ. Christ longsuffering with us. Kind and gentle.... forgiving us as we grow in Him.

 

[Seabass]

Faith is required that God will forgive you when you sin. There is this false narrative that exists in "works based salvation" advocates that make sinning children of God fearful to come to their Father.

That should not be true in our lives for Christ. Christ longsuffering with us. Kind and gentle.... forgiving us as we grow in Him.

The false issue with "works based salvation" is those that want to call obedience to God's will a work of merit. Yet obedience to God and works of merit are two totally different things. As I pointed out in earlier posts, when faith onlyists call obedience to God a work of merit done to receive God's free gift, they are removing grace from the Bible.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you condition salvation on anything you do or dont do, its a works salvation condemned by God

Dear readers:

As you can see, Calvinists seems not to be able (or willing) answering such a simple question as "Does God expect you to love Jews, Muslims and Sikhs"? A question that any child can answer correctly.
Is there any other Calvinist in the Forum able or willing to answer this simple question?

Is it possible that someone thinks that loving someone equals "works-salvation"?

 

[brightfame52]

Again total inability is a false teachings of Calvinism. Again, the Jews in Acts 2 while lost were willing and able to hear Peter's words, understand those words, be pricked in the heart by those words, ask what to do to be saved and obey Peter's commands to repent and be baptized.

It would be senseless and useless on God's part to give men commands knowing it would be impossible for men to obey those commands then condemn those men for not being able to do the impossible. Such Calvinistic idea is an attack against the intelligence, just, righteousness nature of God.

Man by nature is disobedient, thats our nature, cant help it. When God commands any type of evangelical obedience, the person is born again and has a new nature. He doesnt command evangelical obedience to the children of disobedience. For instance those in Acts 2 Peter told to repent, they new born babes spiritually.

 

[Seabass]

Man by nature is disobedient, thats our nature, cant help it. When God commands any type of evangelical obedience, the person is born again and has a new nature. He doesnt command evangelical obedience to the children of disobedience. For instance those in Acts 2 Peter told to repent, they new born babes spiritually.

The Bible does not teach such a an idea. Gen 4:7 Cain had the ability to well, God even told him to rule over sin and such would not be the case if man is innately born totally depraved, total inability. Again, total inability makes God looks senseless and sadistic by giving men commands to obey already know it would be impossible for men to obey having been born totally depraved then punishing man for not doing the impossible.

Those in Acts 2 were lost unless/until they had first repented and baptized for remission of sins. If you think they were saved before they obeyed God's command by repenting and being baptized per v38, then pin point the verse prior to v38 where they became saved and how and why were they saved in that verse. How are men saved BEFORE they obey God? Does God save unconditionally disobedient men? No!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Man by nature is disobedient, thats our nature, cant help it. When God commands any type of evangelical obedience, the person is born again and has a new nature. He doesnt command evangelical obedience to the children of disobedience. For instance those in Acts 2 Peter told to repent, they new born babes spiritually.

Peter's call was not selective, but universal.

Among the people Peter started to preach after Pentecost, there were

• Those who mocked and said the apostles were drunk
• Those who have crucified and put Christ to death.

The exhortation to be saved was universal, although only a group responded. The text says (verses 40 and 41):

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation; Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

The phrase "Those who gladly received the word" means that there were a subgroup out of the bigger group of people called.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The false issue with "works based salvation" is those that want to call obedience to God's will a work of merit. Yet obedience to God and works of merit are two totally different things. As I pointed out in earlier posts, when faith onlyists call obedience to God a work of merit done to receive God's free gift, they are removing grace from the Bible.

So what work keeps you from falling?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Dear readers:

As you can see, Calvinists seems not to be able (or willing) answering such a simple question as "Does God expect you to love Jews, Muslims and Sikhs"? A question that any child can answer correctly.
Is there any other Calvinist in the Forum able or willing to answer this simple question?

Is it possible that someone thinks that loving someone equals "works-salvation"?

Caring for someone doesn't establish a relationship.

 

[Seabass]

So what work keeps you from falling?

faith

 

[praise_yeshua]

faith

Then we agree. Thanks

I will just add that faith isn't a "work". It is trust in the work of another.