"Works Salvation"

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Well even paul says they are without excuse cause even the HEAVENS show HIS handiwork
SO it sounds like this previent grace is correct .
But as paul once wrote , THEY WORSHIP the creature more than the creator .
No doubt if one simply looks to the skies , looks and sees this creation they SURE CAN SEE HIS HANDIWORK .
YET many reject the only one true way BY WHICH to WORSHIP THE FATHER WHO IS SPIRIT .
MANY reject JESUS as the CHRIST and that dear sister will work to their utter destruction .
Yet this generation has grown so huge on judge not correct not , speak not words ,
THEY now find it even hateful and non loving to CORRECT those in error and in sin .
THEY actually beleive men like me who do warn are being UNCOMPASSIONATE
They beleive compassion just hugs and wont correct sin and error , wont warn folks .
LET ME SHOW YOU the TRUE COMPASSION OF GOD and WHY he does
send men to warn and to correct .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

This came to mind:
Jesus said that He would draw all men to Himself.
This is God's love doing the drawing.
God's love IS GRACE.
But Jesus is only drawing man to Himself....He will not force anyone to be saved as the reformed teach.
This drawing can be called prevenient grace.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Take note reader and all
GOD does not desire the death of any but rather they repent and believe on CHRIST JESUS .
And just as in the days of old He often sends men to correct EVEN HIS OWN people who be in error .
FOR GOD HAS COMPASSION and DESIRES not the death and destruction
BUT it sure seems many love to mock and hate on anyone who even tries to correct the evil within the churches .

 

[GodsGrace]

I didnt think it did but was not for sure .
But think about this for a second . HOW does man really KNOW that is how it all began .
What man was even there in the beginning , as GOD even tells job .
SO the truth is , the big bang IS carnal reasoning . Sure it might make some sense to the carnal mind
but that dont make it truth .
IF it says GOD spoke all things into existance , then i say we just keep it simple and teach that .
You are loved dear sister . NOW to the trenches for it is all out war for the souls of men .

I agree.
Even scientists cannot say FOR SURE....
BUT it's pretty apparent that the universe had a beginning.

When I was in high school we were taught that the universe always existed.
This idea spawned the New Atheists that taught that we don't need God to be the creator because
the universe always existed.

But then it was discovered that the universe DID have a beginning !
This was a big problem for the atheists because....
if the universes had a beginning...
WHAT began it???
It seems to have started FROM NOTHING...
and nothing can come from nothing!

So I can't remember names now but in the 1930's it was discovered that the universe was EXPANDING outwardly.
Everything was moving away from each other (of the heavenly bodies).
So when you work that in reverse.....everything goes back to one point....when everything started.
This is called the Big Bang and is the best idea we currently have for the beginning.

Now, I teach kids our faith and they tell me that THIS IS HOW everything began.
So I say to them: RIGHT,,,BUT WHAT CAUSED THE BIG BANG?

Then they think,,,because SOMETHING had to cause it.
Nothing comes from Nothing.

So I'm good with the big bang.

Evolution...no such thing.
And science if beginning to abandon Charles Darwin's theory about evolution.

But evolution is NOT creation....
Evolution just tries to explain why there are so many different types of "animals" including us.
But it doesn't work well....

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

This came to mind:
Jesus said that He would draw all men to Himself.
This is God's love doing the drawing.
God's love IS GRACE.
But Jesus is only drawing man to Himself....He will not force anyone to be saved as the reformed teach.
This drawing can be called prevenient grace.

for many be called , but few be chosen . MANY reject it sister . your right .
But the call is for all .
COME YE WHO SO EVER WILL and DRINK of the waters of life . that call in revelation
says WHOM SO EVER WILL let him drink . that call is for all , BUT MANY REJECT .

 

[GodsGrace]

for many be called , but few be chosen . MANY reject it sister . your right .
But the call is for all .
COME YE WHO SO EVER WILL and DRINK of the waters of life . that call in revelation
says WHOM SO EVER WILL let him drink . that call is for all , BUT MANY REJECT .

Yes. Prevenient grace is for EVERYONE.
Those that killed the prophets did not accept God's grace.
Those that believed the prophets did accept it.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I agree.
Even scientists cannot say FOR SURE....
BUT it's pretty apparent that the universe had a beginning.

When I was in high school we were taught that the universe always existed.
This idea spawned the New Atheists that taught that we don't need God to be the creator because
the universe always existed.

But then it was discovered that the universe DID have a beginning !
This was a big problem for the atheists because....
if the universes had a beginning...
WHAT began it???
It seems to have started FROM NOTHING...
and nothing can come from nothing!

So I can't remember names now but in the 1930's it was discovered that the universe was EXPANDING outwardly.
Everything was moving away from each other (of the heavenly bodies).
So when you work that in reverse.....everything goes back to one point....when everything started.
This is called the Big Bang and is the best idea we currently have for the beginning.

Now, I teach kids our faith and they tell me that THIS IS HOW everything began.
So I say to them: RIGHT,,,BUT WHAT CAUSED THE BIG BANG?

Then they think,,,because SOMETHING had to cause it.
Nothing comes from Nothing.

So I'm good with the big bang.

Evolution...no such thing.
And science if beginning to abandon Charles Darwin's theory about evolution.

But evolution is NOT creation....
Evolution just tries to explain why there are so many different types of "animals" including us.
But it doesn't work well....

VERY VERY TRUE that the universe and all in it HAD a beginning . GOD had to speak it into existance .
SO that is correct sister . The big bang however is not the best way to explain it .
THIS IS , AND HE CREATED ALL THINGS . because the big bang is a best guess , but the WORD OF GOD be TRUE .
Just a friendly reminder dear sister .

 

[Doug Brents]

The universe is not 5 or 6 thousand years old.
It's not necessary to believe the creation account to be in 6 literal days in order to believe the bible.
But it's OK if you do....like I said, I'm not willing to debate this.

A site I just looked up that agrees with YOU states this:
The truth is that both young-earth and old-earth interpretations rely upon certain assumptions. Sincere believers debate the meaning of yom in the creation account because a case can be made on both sides. This does not diminish the importance of what Genesis teaches, regardless of whether or not a person accepts young-earth creationism.
source: https://www.gotquestions.org/Genesis-days.html


The above statement is my position on this and I cannot go beyond my position.

Just for curiosity....what does Genesis 2:4 mean to you?

Which is also a different creation story BTW.

No, Gen 2:4 is not a different creation story.
We use a very similar phraseology in common English today. We say, "In Jesus' day, this and that happened." Does this mean that Jesus only lived one day? Or that the stories in the Gospels where it says, "the next day..." are some other day, or some other man? No. "In Jesus' day..." means during the period of time surrounding the life of Jesus. It encompasses a fairly large period of perhaps the first century BC and the first century AD at the outside.
Gen 2:4 is saying that during the time of the Creation, but before it was completed, while there were no crops or cultivated plants because there was no man to cultivate and tend them... God created man. This places us back into the time of Chapter 1, sometime during the sixth day, when God formed man and gave Him a living soul (differing from the spirits of the other animals God had made).

As for the arguments about "yom" meaning more than a single 24 hour day, the phrase "evening and morning" gives a very clear constraint on how long of a period these days were.
And the "scientific" explanation of the age of the Earth is completely subjective at best. There is no way to be objective in dating the creation because there is NOTHING on Earth in its original form that predates the Flood which happened 1658 years after Creation (4266 years ago). And there is no way of knowing the conditions of the Earth (carbon 14 levels, etc.) in order to conclusively establish the original composition from which we count the age due to breakdown.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Yes. Prevenient grace is for EVERYONE.
Those that killed the prophets did not accept God's grace.
Those that believed the prophets did accept it.

And if we examine the teachings of the prophets
and if we even examine what GOD himself told abraham
And if we can hear the law and the prophets , WE HAD KNOWN WHO THEY TRULY PROPHESIED
of that was TO COME and to SAVE . JESUS THE GLORIOUS CHRIST .
Pretty sad it is my dear sister that most had rather preach this other lovey do stuff
and beleive the idea that all religoins serve the same GOD as we do .
What did JESUS warn to those who had not repented to beleive on HIM .
Did he say Oh its okay we all serving the same GOD anyway ...................NOPE .
WORSE FOR YOU
Why do we think paul warned them and wrote HOW MUCH SORER , that means WORSE , a punishment
for those who TROD CHRIST Under foot .
Now if we take good notice of what peter , john , paul and barnabas , paul and silas and phillip
and other preached . WHAT DID , WHO did we see them preach .
Now when those who rejected JESUS as the CHRIST had rejected HIM
did paul then say , OH ITS OKAY we all serving the same god lets find us some common ground
OR DID HE WARN THEM , YOUR BLOOD IS ON YOUR OWN HEAD
as he shook the dust off his feet , AS JESUS HIMSELF had commanded as a tesimony ,
Exactly sister . WE been LIED TOO SISTER , big time by todays men .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

No, Gen 2:4 is not a different creation story.
We use a very similar phraseology in common English today. We say, "In Jesus' day, this and that happened." Does this mean that Jesus only lived one day? Or that the stories in the Gospels where it says, "the next day..." are some other day, or some other man? No. "In Jesus' day..." means during the period of time surrounding the life of Jesus. It encompasses a fairly large period of perhaps the first century BC and the first century AD at the outside.
Gen 2:4 is saying that during the time of the Creation, but before it was completed, while there were no crops or cultivated plants because there was no man to cultivate and tend them... God created man. This places us back into the time of Chapter 1, sometime during the sixth day, when God formed man and gave Him a living soul (differing from the spirits of the other animals God had made).

As for the arguments about "yom" meaning more than a single 24 hour day, the phrase "evening and morning" gives a very clear constraint on how long of a period these days were.
And the "scientific" explanation of the age of the Earth is completely subjective at best. There is no way to be objective in dating the creation because there is NOTHING on Earth in its original form that predates the Flood which happened 1658 years after Creation (4266 years ago). And there is no way of knowing the conditions of the Earth (carbon 14 levels, etc.) in order to conclusively establish the original composition from which we count the age due to breakdown.

very correct my friend . gensis two verse four is simply Explaining the sixth day again ON HOW HE CREATED MAN and woman .
many teach what is kwown as eight day creation . That is a big mistake .
As though there were men and women before adam and eve .

 

[GodsGrace]

VERY VERY TRUE that the universe and all in it HAD a beginning . GOD had to speak it into existance .
SO that is correct sister . The big bang however is not the best way to explain it .
THIS IS , AND HE CREATED ALL THINGS . because the big bang is a best guess , but the WORD OF GOD be TRUE .
Just a friendly reminder dear sister .

The way I understand it...
The Big Bang would be when God said: Let There Be Light.
I don't state this as fact...it's just an idea.
What we know for sure is that whatever happened, or however it got started...
God did it.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, Gen 2:4 is not a different creation story.
We use a very similar phraseology in common English today. We say, "In Jesus' day, this and that happened." Does this mean that Jesus only lived one day?

Right.
And this is how some understand the 6 days to be....

Or that the stories in the Gospels where it says, "the next day..." are some other day, or some other man? No. "In Jesus' day..." means during the period of time surrounding the life of Jesus. It encompasses a fairly large period of perhaps the first century BC and the first century AD at the outside.

Right.
And this is how some understand the 6 days to be...

Gen 2:4 is saying that during the time of the Creation, but before it was completed, while there were no crops or cultivated plants because there was no man to cultivate and tend them...

Well, what came first?
Man
or the plants?

God created man. This places us back into the time of Chapter 1, sometime during the sixth day, when God formed man and gave Him a living soul (differing from the spirits of the other animals God had made).

Agreed.

As for the arguments about "yom" meaning more than a single 24 hour day, the phrase "evening and morning" gives a very clear constraint on how long of a period these days were.

I have to agree.

And the "scientific" explanation of the age of the Earth is completely subjective at best. There is no way to be objective in dating the creation because there is NOTHING on Earth in its original form that predates the Flood which happened 1658 years after Creation (4266 years ago). And there is no way of knowing the conditions of the Earth (carbon 14 levels, etc.) in order to conclusively establish the original composition from which we count the age due to breakdown.

Again...this can be true.
I'm just not willing to take a stand.
Whatever we find out in the future will be OK with me.

I'm not basing my belief in the bible on whether or not the universe is 14 billion years old or whether or not the earth is 4 billion years old.

I'm interested in Theology and Apologetics.

I just don't understand why persons argue about this.
Like @TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY said: Nobody was around back then.
What we can know for sure is that GOD CREATED EVERYTHING.

WHEN doesn't matter much to me.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, what came first?
Man
or the plants?

It does not say all plants. It says plants of the field that are cultivated by man.

Again...this can be true.
I'm just not willing to take a stand.
Whatever we find out in the future will be OK with me.

I'm not basing my belief in the bible on whether or not the universe is 14 billion years old or whether or not the earth is 4 billion years old.

I'm interested in Theology and Apologetics.

I just don't understand why persons argue about this.
Like @TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY said: Nobody was around back then.
What we can know for sure is that GOD CREATED EVERYTHING.

WHEN doesn't matter much to me.

The reason it matters is because God said it. If He hadn't said anything about when and how He created everything, then there would be nothing to discuss. But because He did tell us how long it took Him, and how He did the things He did, it matters greatly that we believe what He told us. This is all about apologetics.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

The way I understand it...
The Big Bang would be when God said: Let There Be Light.
I don't state this as fact...it's just an idea.
What we know for sure is that whatever happened, or however it got started...
God did it.

YET examine the theory again . Something had to explode . it says a mass does .
YET that mass could not even exist HAD GOD not created it .
FOr sure and for certain i do agree we do not KNOW for sure HOW it happend
OTHER than to simply teach and say GOD CREATED , HE SPOKE all into existance .
That is why i stick to what is simple . Big bang is an educated guess by man .
But we BOTH KNOW the TRUTH IS GOD DID SPEAK , GOD DID create . so i say we leave it at just
that simple explanation .

 

[GodsGrace]

It does not say all plants. It says plants of the field that are cultivated by man.

The reason it matters is because God said it. If He hadn't said anything about when and how He created everything, then there would be nothing to discuss. But because He did tell us how long it took Him, and how He did the things He did, it matters greatly that we believe what He told us. This is all about apologetics.

I understand you Doug.
You believe everything in the bible literally.
The 4 corners of the earth are No, So, East and West.
And all the rest of it.

I'll tell you why we disagree on this:
You wrote up above that GOD SAID IT.
You believe God somehow typed or wrote by hand all the words in the bible.
I believe that the bible was written by men that were inspired by God.
There's a difference here.
You think it's very important and I don't because the end result is the same.
God created everything.
Man sinned.
God saved us with a plan.
We could choose to be with God...
or not.

That's about it as far as I'm concerned.
We could get into more details,,,but I think that's the basics.

 

[GodsGrace]

YET examine the theory again . Something had to explode . it says a mass does .
YET that mass could not even exist HAD GOD not created it .
FOr sure and for certain i do agree we do not KNOW for sure HOW it happend
OTHER than to simply teach and say GOD CREATED , HE SPOKE all into existance .
That is why i stick to what is simple . Big bang is an educated guess by man .
But we BOTH KNOW the TRUTH IS GOD DID SPEAK , GOD DID create . so i say we leave it at just
that simple explanation .

We can't leave it at that because man looks into things and discovers things.
Man used to think that the sun went around the earth.
Persons were killed for teaching differently.
Turned out they were right...the earth goes around the sun.

I'm not one of those that feels we have to choose between science and faith.
I believe we can have both.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God spoke and it happened

God said let their be light, and there was light.

I think people want to try to make to much out of creation. Just take God at his word.

He created the heavens and the earth, for mankind. Everything was put in place for that reason

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

We can't leave it at that because man looks into things and discovers things.
Man used to think that the sun went around the earth.
Persons were killed for teaching differently.
Turned out they were right...the earth goes around the sun.

I'm not one of those that feels we have to choose between science and faith.
I believe we can have both.

men have always loved to look into things and discover things .
No doubt about that .
I noticed you wrote that men used to think the sun went around the earth .
they did .
Men used to think the earth was flat . BUT DID YOU KNOW that in the bible
LONG before man even realized it was round
IT is written and recorded
That it is HE who sitteth over THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH . OH YES that is well written long long ago .
GOD never said the earth was flat
MEN conceieved it was through ignorance.
Now while tis true that sometimes science can prove some things right
SISTER it often will and does contradict GOD . i suggest
we simply become a fool to the wisdom of this world .

 

[Doug Brents]

I understand you Doug.
You believe everything in the bible literally.
The 4 corners of the earth are No, So, East and West.
And all the rest of it.

No, not everything is literal. There is a vast amount of figurative language in Scripture. Jesus is not a rock or stone, but there are many passages that call Him the chief cornerstone, or the rock cut out without hands, etc.

But unless there is a valid, compelling reason to read something as figurative, it should be first read as literal.

I'll tell you why we disagree on this:
You wrote up above that GOD SAID IT.
You believe God somehow typed or wrote by hand all the words in the bible.
I believe that the bible was written by men that were inspired by God.
There's a difference here.
You think it's very important and I don't because the end result is the same.
God created everything.
Man sinned.
God saved us with a plan.
We could choose to be with God...
or not.

That's about it as far as I'm concerned.
We could get into more details,,,but I think that's the basics.

Sure that's the basics. But the reason we have to be careful here is that there are many who refuse to believe in God because there are those, like yourself, who make exceptions to what and how you believe the Bible. It is your lack of complete trust in what it says that opens doors for them to flee through. I would have those doors closed.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

God spoke and it happened

God said let their be light, and there was light.

I think people want to try to make to much out of creation. Just take God at his word.

He created the heavens and the earth, for mankind. Everything was put in place for that reason

That my friend i could not have said better myself . LOVELY LOVELY LOVELY .