"Works Salvation"

[Seabass]

lol.

If I give you something and make you pay for it. its not a gift.

I feel sorry for your kids. (if you have any) do you make them pay for their Christmas gifts?

Naaman offered money for God's free gift but God's prophet would not take the money for God's free gift cannot be bought.

So the issue here is NOT about paying for a free gift but willingness to obey what God says to receive God's free gift.

Hence Naaman's healing was a FREE gift, unmerited favor on the part of God yet God put the condition of dipping to receive the free gift. Since the healing was a matter of grace, unmerited favor, a free gift, then Naaman's obedience could NOT be a work of merit. Hence, the attempt to try and make obedience a work of merit removes God's grace from the context.

God did not owe the Jews in Acts 2 remission of sins/salvation for salvation is a free gift of God. Though God required conditions (repentance & baptism) to receive His free gift, then obedience in repenting & submitting to baptism cannot be works of merit. If repentance & submitting to baptism are works of merit, then God OWED them remission of sins and you take grace out of the Bible....again

 

[Seabass]

Not at all.

Before he built the ark.

Why would Noah, a just man and a preacher of righteousness who had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord refuse to build the ark? Your argument is moot but since you teach salvation obtained and maintained by works it's the only thing you are capable of understanding.

Noah met the condition of faith in order to find grace in the eyes of the Lord. Just as we do today. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it. Your argument here culminates in "type 2 works salvation."

Read Romans 4:5-6; 5:1-2 and Ephesians 2:8,9 very carefully apart from your bias and eisegesis. Man is justified/accounted as righteous/saved through faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. Not to be confused with "faith only" per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith) that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome and I have found that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which is a major red flag for me.

You are still grinding on this moot issue? Noah would have drown in the flood if he chose to disobey God by refusing to build the ark but of course that was not the case. Deal with it.

Perverting the gospel is living in defiance to God's will (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) no matter how much so called obedience that you attempt to conjure up in a vain effort to obtain and maintain salvation by works.

You are a broken record of confusion with "faith only" per James 2:24 which is in regard to a bare profession of faith that produces no works. (James 2:14) That does not negate salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) which you clearly are unable grasp.

Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is not UNconditional but is conditional on placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. OSAS is true IF you are truly saved to begin with. (Psalm 37:28; John 6:38-40; 10:27-30; Romans 8:30-39; 1 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Jude 1:1 etc..).

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout the Bible, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

Nothing I teach here is foreign to the NT gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) The gospel according to Campbelllism (what you teach) and is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics is foreign to the NT gospel of Christ.

Again, would Noah have CONTINUED to find grace in the eyes of God had he refused and disobey God by not building the ark?

Would God have just graciously, UNconditionally save Noah from the flood anyway had Noah defied and disobeyed God by not building the ark?

 

[Seabass]

But men by nature are children of disobedience to God. How can they go against their nature and obey God ?

Again, 'nature' in the context does NOT refer to how they were innately, passively born. Those Ephesians in the past chose of their own free will to walk and do sin for so long that by habitually practice of sin that sinning became part of their nature.

 

[brightfame52]

Again, 'nature' in the context does NOT refer to how they were innately, passively born. Those Ephesians in the past chose of their own free will to walk and do sin for so long that by habitually practice of sin that sinning became part of their nature.

Yes it is, thats why a man must be born again and partake of a new nature. The nature we have [the flesh] is dead to God, and itsnt subject to Gods commands Rom8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We by nature are carnal, and only carnal, and that mind isnt subject to the law of God, and cant be.

The word subject is the greek word ὑποτάσσω:

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

The law of God isnt just the moral law either, but the word nomos means:
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

1. of any law whatsoever
   
   1. a law or rule producing a state approved of God
      
      1. by the observance of which is approved of God
   2. a precept or injunction
   3. the rule of action prescribed by reason

And believing on Christ is a commandment of God that must be obeyed 1Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Repentance is a commandment of God Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So man by nature, who is carnal cannot obey Gods commands, law sorry

 

[mailmandan]

Again, would Noah have CONTINUED to find grace in the eyes of God had he refused and disobey God by not building the ark?

Would God have just graciously, UNconditionally save Noah from the flood anyway had Noah defied and disobeyed God by not building the ark?

I already thoroughly covered this in post #1,494.

 

[Seabass]

Yes it is, thats why a man must be born again and partake of a new nature. The nature we have [the flesh] is dead to God, and itsnt subject to Gods commands Rom8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We by nature are carnal, and only carnal, and that mind isnt subject to the law of God, and cant be.

The word subject is the greek word ὑποτάσσω:

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

The law of God isnt just the moral law either, but the word nomos means:
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

1. of any law whatsoever
   1. a law or rule producing a state approved of God
      1. by the observance of which is approved of God
   2. a precept or injunction
   3. the rule of action prescribed by reason

And believing on Christ is a commandment of God that must be obeyed 1Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Repentance is a commandment of God Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So man by nature, who is carnal cannot obey Gods commands, law sorry

The Bible does not teach men are innately, passively born sinners or innately, passively born with a totally depraved nature or total inability.

Men have the ability to do well or not do well, Gen 4:7. Hence if one chooses to not do well then it is just that, a choice, not something dictated by how one was innately passively born. God even told Cain to rule over sin which would be impossible if Cain were totally depraved/total inability. It would be senseless for God to tell Cain to do what God already knew he could not possibly do.

So when God comands man to believe or repent, then;
1) the commands imply ability for it would be senseless, useless for God to give commands already knowing it is impossible for those commands to be obeyed
2) since man does have the ability to hear, listen understand, obey, then if he chooses to not listen, hear, obey, then God can then rightly, justly condemn man for his choice to disobey.

 

[Seabass]

I already thoroughly covered this in post #1,494.

no.

 

[mailmandan]

no.

Once again, why would Noah, a just man and a preacher of righteousness who had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord refuse to build the ark? Noah would have drown in the flood if he chose to disobey God by refusing to build the ark but of course that was not the case. Deal with it.

 

[atpollard]

The Bible does not teach men are innately, passively born sinners or innately, passively born with a totally depraved nature or total inability.

No, the Bible more closely reflects REALITY and teaches mankind's ACTIVE pursuit of sin and steadfast resistance to God's offer [absent the DRAW of the father].

[John 3:16-21 AMP]
16 "For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge and condemn the world [that is, to initiate the final judgment of the world], but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him]. 19 "This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For every wrongdoer hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned. 21 "But whoever practices truth [and does what is right--morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence on Him]."

• First key point ... PEOPLE [all people] sin and reject the light and flee from God [this is why they stand "judged already"]
• Second key point ... the exception is "accomplished IN GOD" [not in man] as John 6:44 explains more clearly.

 

[brightfame52]

The Bible does not teach men are innately, passively born sinners or innately, passively born with a totally depraved nature or total inability.

Men have the ability to do well or not do well, Gen 4:7. Hence if one chooses to not do well then it is just that, a choice, not something dictated by how one was innately passively born. God even told Cain to rule over sin which would be impossible if Cain were totally depraved/total inability. It would be senseless for God to tell Cain to do what God already knew he could not possibly do.

So when God comands man to believe or repent, then;
1) the commands imply ability for it would be senseless, useless for God to give commands already knowing it is impossible for those commands to be obeyed
2) since man does have the ability to hear, listen understand, obey, then if he chooses to not listen, hear, obey, then God can then rightly, justly condemn man for his choice to disobey.

Man by nature cant obey God, impossible. So men whom God chose to save, He saved them by Christs obedience, His obedience makes them righteous, thats salvation Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[dwight92070]

What you talking about is works. Repentance and faith are works, and you seem to be conditioning forgiveness of sins on doing them. Those whom Christ died for, they are automatically forgiven of their sins, even b4 they believe and yet ungodly. Forgiveness was by the Blood of Christ and grace of God Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Repentance and faith take place in the heart, so Biblically, they are not works. Works require physical action. When Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.", He was speaking metaphorically. The Jews wanted to know what physical work they could do to please God. Essentially Jesus' answer to them was "There is no physical work, but there is a "work" in your heart that pleases Him.

Nobody is automatically forgiven of their sins. A "spiritual work" in the heart is necessary before forgiveness can happen.

 

[atpollard]

Repentance and faith take place in the heart, so Biblically, they are not works. Works require physical action. When Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.", He was speaking metaphorically. The Jews wanted to know what physical work they could do to please God. Essentially Jesus' answer to them was "There is no physical work, but there is a "work" in your heart that pleases Him.

Nobody is automatically forgiven of their sins. A "spiritual work" in the heart is necessary before forgiveness can happen.

Monergists generally focus less attention on whether the "work" is PHYSICAL vs SPIRITUAL and more attention on whether it is the "person" or "God" that is doing the work. the Bible appears to emphasize the work that God does rather than the work that we do as being "salvific".

 

[civic]

Monergists generally focus less attention on whether the "work" is PHYSICAL vs SPIRITUAL and more attention on whether it is the "person" or "God" that is doing the work. the Bible appears to emphasize the work that God does rather than the work that we do as being "salvific".

I would agree with the above with emphasis on man’s responsibility to believe , receive the gospel. God saves the person who places their faith in Christ. God does the saving, man does the believing.

 

[atpollard]

God does the saving, man does the believing.

Yup ... and therein lies the heart of Monergysm vs Synergism (the actual beliefs, not the straw men of both positions). Can man BELIEVE without God empowering that belief? [I say 'no' and many say 'yes'] ... only God knows the truth because John 3 can be read to support either position (depending on where one focuses and what OTHER scripture one draws in to explain scripture).

 

[civic]

Yup ... and therein lies the heart of Monergysm vs Synergism (the actual beliefs, not the straw men of both positions). Can man BELIEVE without God empowering that belief? [I say 'no' and many say 'yes'] ... only God knows the truth because John 3 can be read to support either position (depending on where one focuses and what OTHER scripture one draws in to explain scripture).

I would say Gods grace precedes on both sides. The mono side makes it irresistible and I believe it can be resisted. But whoever believes God always precedes

 

[atpollard]

I would say Gods grace precedes on both sides. The mono side makes it irresistible and I believe it can be resisted. But whoever believes God always precedes

Yeah. There are different flavors of that, too (just as Monergists have differing opinions on the details) with someone like John Wesley making it a fairly impersonal "blanket Prevenient Grace" over all humanity [which feels a little too close to negating the Adamic Curse and flirting with 'Semi-Pelegian' "we are only sick and not dead in our sins" for my personal comfort] and many a Synergist holding to a far more PERSONAL grace preceding and empowering 'Free Will' belief [which at least agrees with Ephesians 2:1-10 in my opinion].

Fortunately for all of us, my opinions on the matter are non-binding. God didn't ask me and doesn't care what I think ... GOD will show mercy on whom He will show mercy (according to HIS PLAN) ... and I can live with that [pun intended].

 

[brightfame52]

@dwight92070

Repentance and faith take place in the heart,

Yes but in the new heart given by regeneration, not mans wicked hard heart by nature, that heart is incapable of repentance, its described here Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

The word impenitent ἀμετανόητος:

1. admitting no change of mind, unrepented, impenitent

Plus by nature our hearts are hard towards God,

So when God saves a person He gives a New Heart Ezk 36:26

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Repentance and faith issue from the new heart given in regeneration, those are good works

so Biblically, they are not works

Yes they are works, of the spiritual kind

Works require physical action.

Or spiritual and mental action

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Believing in Christ is Gods work in us, producing that effect Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Notice the act of believing is in accordance with Gods working mighty power, so God gets the credit for ones believing, the power of His Grace.

Nobody is automatically forgiven of their sins.

The forgivenss came through Christs redemptive work alone, so He did the work of satisfying the law and justice of God, but the sinner He did it for is freely given forgivenss of sins because of it, thats automatic Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

And Gods power causes them to believe Vs 19

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I would agree with the above with emphasis on man’s responsibility to believe , receive the gospel. God saves the person who places their faith in Christ. God does the saving, man does the believing.

What if man still does not believe but wants to believe?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@dwight92070



Yes but in the new heart given by regeneration, not mans wicked hard heart by nature, that heart is incapable of repentance, its described here Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

The word impenitent ἀμετανόητος:

1. admitting no change of mind, unrepented, impenitent

Plus by nature our hearts are hard towards God,

So when God saves a person He gives a New Heart Ezk 36:26

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Repentance and faith issue from the new heart given in regeneration, those are good works



Yes they are works, of the spiritual kind


Or spiritual and mental action



Believing in Christ is Gods work in us, producing that effect Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Notice the act of believing is in accordance with Gods working mighty power, so God gets the credit for ones believing, the power of His Grace.



The forgivenss came through Christs redemptive work alone, so He did the work of satisfying the law and justice of God, but the sinner He did it for is freely given forgivenss of sins because of it, thats automatic Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

And Gods power causes them to believe Vs 19

The hardness of the heart is allowed by God for a certain time and for a certain purpose, like Paul depicts in Romans.
But all men are created children, citizens of the Kingdom and with the capacity to respond to God.
The great Calvin was wrong in interpreting God’s creation in man, God purpose for man and the nature of children.

 

[civic]

What if man still does not believe but wants to believe?

There is nothing stopping him except his own doubts.