"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

You either accept a free gift or else you reject it just like you either receive the free gift of eternal through faith (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) or else you reject it.

How is the gift accepted? How did Naaman "accept" the gift of healing God gave him? He did not receive the gift (healing of leprosy) until he had done (dip in Jordan 7 times) all that the prophet commanded of him.
Israel was gifted the land of Israel when Abraham was alive (before Jacob (Israel) was even born), yet they did not possess it, nor did they have use of it, until Joshua led them across Jordan to conquer/take it from the nations that possessed it at the time.
There is no "accepting" of the gift without "going to the dealership" (as it were) to receive the gifted "vehicle". You may "own" it, but you receive no benefit from it until you take possession of it. That is done in/during water baptism (as we have discussed many times before).

 

[Studyman]

He was.

In your religion perhaps, but not according to Jesus, the Prophets and Paul.

The fact you seem to think Jesus had to be saved is worrysome and says alot.

Jesus sure did, at least, the Jesus "of the Bible".

Heb. 5: 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to "save him from death", and was heard in that he feared;

I just know and believe what Jesus actually says. And clearly HE knew HE had to be Saved from death, as all men.

Just because your religion has convinced you not to believe in the Words of this Jesus, doesn't mean His Words are untrue.

Jesus work of going to the cross was payment for my salvation.

No. Because he is talking to those already saved or as he said "WE ARE IN HIM"

Well you would not say I must do this that or anything else to stay saved

do what?

I have never made any such proclamation..

The Pharisees thought they were ok. that's why they rejected Jesus.

They rejected Moses first. Listen to what Jesus actually says.

John 5: 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

And again;

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Zacharias and Simeon and Anna, believed Moses and the Prophets? And they knew the Jesus "of the bible". But the men who didn't believe Moses and the Prophets, didn't know Him. Just because you believe this Biblical Truth isn't relevant, doesn't make it so.

Paul said the Exodus was written for you, for examples to you, for Your admonition. And why? Listen to what he actually says.

1 Cor. 10: 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that "thinketh" he standeth take heed lest he fall.

This world's religious system that you have adopted and are now promoting, "who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have rejected God's Judgments, despised His Feasts, created their own Righteousness, their own high days, their own image of God in the likeness of a handsome, long-haired man. Are you better than Paul that you can live in this manner, and escape the judgment of God?

Jesus said in Matt. 4:

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If I submit to this teaching, am I "Trying to earn Salvation"?

This is why I asked the question you refused to answer.

Yep.

Alot of works. Alot of self. Not God.

Paul fought all over the merit based salvation.

You can not see it, because in order for you to see it you would have to repent of your own works based gospel.

This is why I asked you the question you wouldn't answer.

If I walk after the "Good Works God before ordained that I should walk in them", like the Jesus "of the bible" did, and instructed me to do, are these "my works" of righteousness, or the Christ's works that are in me?

Therefore, if I walk in or partake of the traditions, judgments, high days and images of God in the likeness of men, that this world's religious system promotes, then it would be "the course of this world, the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience" that is in me. But if I repent, deny myself, and "Yield myself" to God, and my body as instruments of God's Righteousness "Unto God", as Paul teaches, then it is not my works, but Christ's works in me.

This is what Paul actually teaches.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (dead in trespasses and sins) but under grace? ( as those that are alive from the dead,) God forbid. That means NO! EG. Why is Paul teaching this?

16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves servants to obey", "his servants ye are" to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You can't hear Paul because you have not repented from your own "works based Gospel", and let the mind that was in Christ, be in you. So that Christ's Gospel can be fulfilled in you.

1 John 2: 3 And "hereby we do know" that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth "is not in him".

5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we "that we are in him".

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself "also so to walk", even as he walked.

So according to what is "Actually Written", a man who rejects God's Judgments, and many of His Commandments, including the First and Greatest one, rejects God's Statutes, creates their own high days, and their definition of Holy, clean and Righteous, and promotes images of God in the likeness of a long haired, handsome man, is clearly not "Keeping His Word", nor "Walking, even as HE walked". And Jesus Himself said, at least the Jesus "of the bible":

Matt. 5: 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is why Jesus said to "come out of her", and "be ye not therefore like unto them".

We are all born into a world just like Noah and Abraham was born into. And God calls men to repent and turn away from the "course of this world", the spirit that now works in the "Children of Disobedience". Calling Jesus Lord, Lord, will not save you from God's Judgment in this matter.

I advocate that a man not one listens to what Jesus actually instructs, but that this same man deny himself, and become a "Doer" of His Sayings, not a hearer like all those on the broad path.

That's all I am advocating.

 

[Doug Brents]

You are making a distinction that God doesn't make, and that to justify the popular myth that that man's soul is immortal from his birth. Jesus knew better.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".

God preserves the soul of man for Judgment, but as Jesus Himself tells you, man's soul is not "immortal", like the angels. And the teaching that God gives it immortality, just to torture it forever, is truly a popular religious marketing strategy designed to get folks to adopt and contribute to this world's various religious businesses and sects, many of which "come in Christ's Name", as Jesus also warns. But it is not what the Scriptures teach, if one considers all that is written.

When you consider all that is written, you MUST conclude that the soul is, in fact, immortal. Hell will be forever, just as Heaven will be (Matt 25:46, among others).

But if a man's soul can be destroyed, as the Jesus "of the bible" clearly warns, then it is not immortal, by very definition.

It is not destroyed as in "cease to exist". It is destroyed as in "ruined emotionally and spiritually".

Meanwhile, Abraham and David are still dead, not knowing, perceiving, thinking, praising, loving, hating, or anything that the soul of man can do. And yet he will be raised from this state and not destroyed, as Jesus warns, but he will be given the gift of immortality both body and soul, that they will never be destroyed. And like Jesus, if God doesn't resurrect Abraham or David, he will be in the heart of the earth forever, in the same state. Just as Jesus would still be in the heart of the earth, knowing nothing, seeing nothing, serving no one, if His Father had not raised Him. Clearly Jesus didn't want to remain dead.

Heb. 5: 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

God heard Him, but HE was still killed, so God didn't "save him from physical death" as you preach. God saved Him from the State HE was in for 3 days and 3 nights, knowing nothing, praising no one, saving no one. And gave both His Body and Soul, immortality. And HE became the First ever mortal Human to receive the gift.

God did not save Jesus from physical death (and I never said that He did). Jesus was not unseeing, unfeeling, unpraising, etc. while He was in the grave (1 Pet 3:18-19).

 

[brightfame52]

@Seabass

It's an everyday fact that free gifts can and do come with conditions, it's the gift givers perogative to make his gift uncondtional or conditional and God has made reception of His free gift of salvation conditional upon obedience and meeting conditions does not earn the free gift. This is why you and mailmandan cannot find one example in the NT gospel of God UNconditionally saving those who will not CONDITIONALLY obey God's will but continued to live in disobedience and defiance of God's will.

One cannot obey Gods will until they are saved from disobedience, by nature we are children of disobedience Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

As long as we are in nature, we walk , live in disobedience

Now obedience is after the sanctifying work of the Spirit, which saves us with a new nature, unto obedience 1 Pet 1:2,22

2 ;Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

If you can obey God evangelically in the Gospel b4 this saving of the Spirit, congratulations you are your own saviour from sin

 

[Doug Brents]

Actually when I give them the gift. what they do with it is up to them/. if they want to leave it wrapped up they can

Certainly they can, but the question then becomes, "Do they have use/benefit of the gift as long as it remains wrapped?" The answer is obviously, "NO!" So then, what good is it to them that they "own" it, if they don't have use of it?

Do you need to unwrap your salvation? Better yet, do you unwrap yourself (You are a gift to the father from the son) Think about what your saying

Yes, you need to take possession of it in order for it to be of any benefit to you. And you take possession of salvation through faith.

If your doing the work of getting baptised in order to be saved. You are in fact meriting salvation.

If that is your position, then you are saying that the life of God's Son is worth nothing more to you than you being dipped in water. The value of God is so, so much more than that.

Its no different than the jew saying they must get cut..

Being circumcised did not "save" the Jews.

Why are people afraid to look to God to save them. and not look to self?

Strawman

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

In your religion perhaps, but not according to Jesus, the Prophets and Paul.


Jesus sure did, at least, the Jesus "of the Bible".

Heb. 5: 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to "save him from death", and was heard in that he feared;

I just know and believe what Jesus actually says. And clearly HE knew HE had to be Saved from death, as all men.

Just because your religion has convinced you not to believe in the Words of this Jesus, doesn't mean His Words are untrue.



They rejected Moses first. Listen to what Jesus actually says.

John 5: 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

And again;

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Zacharias and Simeon and Anna, believed Moses and the Prophets? And they knew the Jesus "of the bible". But the men who didn't believe Moses and the Prophets, didn't know Him. Just because you believe this Biblical Truth isn't relevant, doesn't make it so.

Paul said the Exodus was written for you, for examples to you, for Your admonition. And why? Listen to what he actually says.

1 Cor. 10: 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that "thinketh" he standeth take heed lest he fall.

This world's religious system that you have adopted and are now promoting, "who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have rejected God's Judgments, despised His Feasts, created their own Righteousness, their own high days, their own image of God in the likeness of a handsome, long-haired man. Are you better than Paul that you can live in this manner, and escape the judgment of God?

Jesus said in Matt. 4:

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If I submit to this teaching, am I "Trying to earn Salvation"?

This is why I asked the question you refused to answer.




This is why I asked you the question you wouldn't answer.

If I walk after the "Good Works God before ordained that I should walk in them", like the Jesus "of the bible" did, and instructed me to do, are these "my works" of righteousness, or the Christ's works that are in me?

Therefore, if I walk in or partake of the traditions, judgments, high days and images of God in the likeness of men, that this world's religious system promotes, then it would be "the course of this world, the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience" that is in me. But if I repent, deny myself, and "Yield myself" to God, and my body as instruments of God's Righteousness "Unto God", as Paul teaches, then it is not my works, but Christ's works in me.

This is what Paul actually teaches.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (dead in trespasses and sins) but under grace? ( as those that are alive from the dead,) God forbid. That means NO! EG. Why is Paul teaching this?

16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves servants to obey", "his servants ye are" to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You can't hear Paul because you have not repented from your own "works based Gospel", and let the mind that was in Christ, be in you. So that Christ's Gospel can be fulfilled in you.

1 John 2: 3 And "hereby we do know" that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth "is not in him".

5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we "that we are in him".

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself "also so to walk", even as he walked.

So according to what is "Actually Written", a man who rejects God's Judgments, and many of His Commandments, including the First and Greatest one, rejects God's Statutes, creates their own high days, and their definition of Holy, clean and Righteous, and promotes images of God in the likeness of a long haired, handsome man, is clearly not "Keeping His Word", nor "Walking, even as HE walked". And Jesus Himself said, at least the Jesus "of the bible":

Matt. 5: 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is why Jesus said to "come out of her", and "be ye not therefore like unto them".

We are all born into a world just like Noah and Abraham was born into. And God calls men to repent and turn away from the "course of this world", the spirit that now works in the "Children of Disobedience". Calling Jesus Lord, Lord, will not save you from God's Judgment in this matter.

I advocate that a man not one listens to what Jesus actually instructs, but that this same man deny himself, and become a "Doer" of His Sayings, not a hearer like all those on the broad path.

That's all I am advocating.

I can't anymore

If you think the God of heaven, who knew no sin needed saved. I can't help you. Nothing else you say even would matter after that

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Certainly they can, but the question then becomes, "Do they have use/benefit of the gift as long as it remains wrapped?" The answer is obviously, "NO!" So then, what good is it to them that they "own" it, if they don't have use of it?

If I had to unwrap my salvation you may have a point

Yes, you need to take possession of it in order for it to be of any benefit to you. And you take possession of salvation through faith.

God lifted me from death and gave me life.

If that is your position, then you are saying that the life of God's Son is worth nothing more to you than you being dipped in water. The value of God is so, so much more than that.

God immersed me in Christ

The value of the son is so much more. thats why replacing his work with the work of men is an insult to him

Being circumcised did not "save" the Jews.

Your right it did not. But there were those who said it did. Paul called them out. just like he would call you out

Strawman

Yawn

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you need to unwrap your salvation? Better yet, do you unwrap yourself (You are a gift to the father from the son) Think about what your saying

Consider real life scenarios and probably we will understand you better, my friend.
If we stay in the realm of theory, this debate will be endless.

Here is a real life scenario:

A young lady goes to College and after 6 years graduates as a Medical Doctor with a Cum Laude.
Who achieved this? Was it God? Was the young lady?
Are there reasons for the young lady to feel proud? What about their parents? Or is that pride sinful? Why?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If I walk after the "Good Works God before ordained that I should walk in them", like the Jesus "of the bible" did, and instructed me to do, are these "my works" of righteousness, or the Christ's works that are in me?

That question is key.
Thanks for bringing it to the table, Studyman.

 

[Dizerner]

Or is that pride sinful? Why?

All pride is sinful for the creation, because all glory belongs to God.

The idea that you can take a gift from God who upholds your every breath, and achieve something in your own goodness and power, is taking credit for something that only God deserves.

Sometimes, colloquially, people mean pride in a different sense, just something more like "I feel satisfied I gave it my best," rather than strictly and actually taking credit for what they did.

I recommend studying Ezekiel 28 to better understand pride.

 

[Doug Brents]

If I had to unwrap my salvation you may have a point

You must receive His gift, or you don't have the benefit of it. It is sitting on the table right in front of you, but you have to reach out and take it (He does not dump it out on you). In order to take hold of it, you must repent of your sins (Acts 3:19), you must confess that He is your lord verbally and publicly (Rom 10:9-10), and you must be baptized in water (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21). These three actions RESULT IN/LEAD TO receiving His gift of salvation. If they aren't done, then you don't receive the gift.

God lifted me from death and gave me life.

God immersed me in Christ

He did when you were baptized in water. If you weren't, then you haven't been. There is NO OTHER WAY.

The value of the son is so much more. thats why replacing his work with the work of men is an insult to him

Ignoring His command is also discounting His value, and that is what you are teaching. It is not "replacing His work" to say that He gives His gift to those who obey Him. That is just taking Him at His word (Heb 5:9).

Your right it did not. But there were those who said it did. Paul called them out. just like he would call you out

Paul is the one who taught what I do. He (along with the other Apostles and early leaders of the Church) taught exactly what I am saying, because it is from them that I learned it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

All pride is sinful for the creation, because all glory belongs to God.

The idea that you can take a gift from God who upholds your every breath, and achieve something in your own goodness and power, is taking credit for something that only God deserves.

Sometimes, colloquially, people mean pride in a different sense, just something more like "I feel satisfied I gave it my best," rather than strictly andc actually taking credit for what they did.

I recommend studying Ezekiel 28 to better understand pride.

I agree with you, and I brought the example because, in the middle of a Calvinist paranoia about the self, even the thought "I feel satisfied that I gave it my best" would feel inappropriate, because it points out to what the young lady gave.

To me, once the person has been regenerated (aside from whether this happens before or after faith), she can feel genuinely happy for all the results that come from her choices and effort, because she knows that her choices and efforts are guided by the values, principles or notions that Christ inspire in her from inside. She also knows that the material resources, intelligence, health, support from her parents and teachers, etc. are all gifts from God. Therefore, she lives in permanent gratitude, never taking these things for granted or deserved.

This attitude of permanent gratitude to God will translate into

• a more loving, more mature interaction with people who did not achieve what she achieved
• a more careful, thoughtful use of the resources God gave her (eg, like in the parable of the talents)

She will not show arrogance.

Why do I bring the scenario to the discussion? Because I highly suspect that Paul's discourse on faith vs works reflects his concern about arrogance vs humbleness: it is not so much theological or philosophical concern, but a pastoral, social one. It is about what happened among the brethren when they ate, discussed, shared resources, faced common difficulties.

Certainly, theologians want to see it from a theological perspective, and that's OK. It's their hobby. Let them enjoy it.
But in the gospel of Christ, salvation is about what happens everyday at home, at work, in our interactions with the people we like and the people we don't like, in our successes and mistakes.
As the inspired author says in 1 John, "Do not get deceived: He who does righteous things is righteous, as Christ is righteous".

 

[Dizerner]

Why do I bring the scenario to the discussion? Because I highly suspect that Paul's discourse on faith vs works stems from the arrogance he saw within the church.

Paul, himself, struggled with pride.

Said God sent a demon to torment him for it.

 

[mailmandan]

How is the gift accepted? How did Naaman "accept" the gift of healing God gave him?

Where in 2 Kings chapter 5 was receiving healing from leprosy for Naaman referred to as a gift? The only place we see the word gift is in verse 15 in which Naaman offered the man of God (Elisha) a gift after he was healed from leprosy, but he refused to accept it. for Elisha to accept the gift may have given the impression that he is personally responsible for what happened.

He did not receive the gift (healing of leprosy) until he had done (dip in Jordan 7 times) all that the prophet commanded of him.

Naaman received healing from leprosy (not the gift of eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins but signifies it. The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the sovereignty of God and not receiving the gift of eternal life via H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with receiving eternal life via H2O but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

Israel was gifted the land of Israel when Abraham was alive (before Jacob (Israel) was even born), yet they did not possess it, nor did they have use of it, until Joshua led them across Jordan to conquer/take it from the nations that possessed it at the time.

Your illustrations equate receiving a gift to salvation by works. You seem determined to do something and add it to the finished work of Christ in order to help Jesus save you and take credit for doing your part. Let the boasting begin! Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

There is no "accepting" of the gift without "going to the dealership" (as it were) to receive the gifted "vehicle". You may "own" it, but you receive no benefit from it until you take possession of it. That is done in/during water baptism (as we have discussed many times before).

More faulty human logic. I'm yet to receive a vehicle from a dealership as a gift. I have always had to pay for it. (See Romans 4:4-6 for does not work but believes) I took possession of the gift of eternal life and also received the gift of the Holy Spirit several years ago when I believed in/place my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 6:23; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8,9) My faith (belief, trust, reliance) remains 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Your faith remains in water and works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[civic]

The faith onlyists fail-refuse to see that God's grace is found in humble OBDIENCE to His will.

Catholicism goes to one extreme with the selling of indulgences, treasury of merit, etc. Protestants have gone to the other extreme by trying to eliminate obedience to God from salvation.

Avoid the man-made extremes and simply obey God. (Heb 5:9; Acts 10:35) Be a wise man (Mt 7:24) and not foolish (Mt 7:26)

There is no way anyone can read Jesus teachings in the gospels and walk away thinking He did not command and demand obedience to be His disciple. Faith and obedience are 2 sides of the same coin. Jesus said if you love Me you will obey His commands.

Here is what Jesus and the Apostles taught about obedience, personal holiness and sin. The author of Hebrews 12:14 says: without holiness no man will see the Lord.


Jesus teaching


Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching:


1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.


1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

Paul's teaching:


Romans 6:1
Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be !

Galatians 5
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


Colossians 3
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.


Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Peters Teaching


1 Peter 1
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

1 Peter 4
As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

continued below:

What I'm addressing is the issue of not having to obey Christ and the Apostles teaching( antinomianism ) for example on loving God and others a universal command in both testaments for all believers all times in all places. We don't get to say I'm saved by faith alone and then treat everyone in an unloving way. That attitude, idea makes a mockery out of Jesus when He was our example of how to love others, what that looks like and the Apostles in their writings sure understood that basic/core teaching that all men will know you are my disciples by your love for one another. That is how we are light/salt on this earth. Jesus should be seen and heard through us as His Ambassadors. We as believers represent Christ wherever we are at home, neighborhood, work, vacation etc...... We are missionaries with the gospel in our areas of influence. Jesus and the Apostles taught about bearing fruit, doing " good works : as per Ephesians 2:8-10 that God created us for and prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We will all stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ and give an account with our lives and what we have done or not done for Christ with our life and opportunities He has sett before us as per 1 Cor 3 and 5 and Romans 12. These refer to believers that give an account of their lives to Christ, and therefor it says: knowing the fear of the Lord we persuade men.

Romans 14:10–12 “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. . . . So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God”

Corinthians 5:10 “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Romans 6:1-14
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.


Do you find it hypocritical that some believe the opposite of what Paul and Jesus taught that you can continue in sin that grace might abound ? Romans 6:1 ?


Don't you know that those who practice sin shall not enter the kingdom of God ?


1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


See the PAST TENSE in the passage ?


1- you were sinners practicing sin

2- you were washed

3- you were sanctified

4- you were justified


1 Corinthians 5:11-13
But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you


Galatians 5:19-22
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Also I'm not promoting sinless perfectionism.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The Abundant life one that is a fruitful life. We can learn many truths from Gods creation and the way He designed things to work.

God created plants to fruit and propagate themselves. Jesus cursed the fig tree. Why? It was green but did not bear fruit so He cursed the tree. A good tree brings forth good fruit. You will know them by their fruits. God is life and created man and plants to bring forth life. I came that you might have life and life abundantly. A fruitful life is Gods design for us. The Fruit of the Spirit in us is our evidence we have life (the Spiritual life, born of the Spirit) which God created us for His good works that He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. We are Gods workmanship created for that purpose.

The parable of the sower in which the good soil produces much fruit. God did not create man, animals and plants to look good but to multiply, bear fruit, procreate. They(we) are agents of life to bring forth fruit, life. We are created in Gods image to bring forth life, to be fruitful and multiply.

It’s the nature of God to send, distribute, equip, empower and to set free. Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to accomplish this in our life. Jesus had to leave to give us the Holy Spirit. Jesus greatest thing He did as a leader of men was to leave. He removed Himself to give us His Spirit. And the result was to Be fruitful!

Sin brought forth death, unfruitfulness, thorns, thistles, labor etc….

Gods truth like water is designed to bring forth life/fruit. Truth is not an end to itself but the foundation for life. Fruit brings glory to God. Salvation is not the end game either but fruit in your life, good works. Faith without works/fruit is dead. James 2:17

Philippians 1:9-11
And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; 11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Titus 3:14
And our people must also learn to devote themselves to good works in order to meet the pressing needs of others, so that they will not be unfruitful.

James 3:18
Peacemakers who sow in peace reap the fruit of righteousness.

John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Psalm 1:2-3
But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.

Ezekiel 47:12
Along both banks of the river, fruit trees of all kinds will grow. Their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. Each month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will be used for food and their leaves for healing.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Truth is from God and lies are from satan. This is the cosmic battle but the ultimate reality of the battle is that one leads to Life and the other leads to death.

The Parable of the Talents Matthew 25

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

hope this helps !!!

 

[Doug Brents]

Where in 2 Kings chapter 5 was receiving healing from leprosy for Naaman referred to as a gift? The only place we see the word gift is in verse 15 in which Naaman offered the man of God (Elisha) a gift after he was healed from leprosy, but he refused to accept it. for Elisha to accept the gift may have given the impression that he is personally responsible for what happened.

Naaman received healing from leprosy (not the gift of eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan.

I have never said that Naaman's sins were forgiven when he dipped in Jordan. There is no mention of his sin in the telling of the story. But his healing was a gift none the less, just as all of God's actions toward man are gifts. God does not owe man anything whatsoever, for any reason. Life is a gift, the breath in our lungs is a gift, salvation is a gift, healing (when it is given) is a gift, struggles are a gift.... Scripture does not need to state that it was a gift for us to understand this truth. Quit with the lame-duck strawman arguments, they do you no credit.

Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins but signifies it.

Again, I have never said that water baptism literally remits sin. It is the Holy Spirit who cuts our sin from us DURING water baptism (Col 2:11-14). It is not the water, but the faith which is perfected (made complete) in the act of obedience of water baptism that removes sin (1 Pet 3:21).

Your illustrations equate receiving a gift to salvation by works. You seem determined to do something and add it to the finished work of Christ in order to help Jesus save you and take credit for doing your part. Let the boasting begin! Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

Going back to the gift of a car example: is there any boasting or credit due to the person who shows up at the dealership? Do the dealer or salesman credit themselves with greater income because the person to whom the car was given shows up? No. No additional money is made, nor is there any credit due to the person who shows up. The credit for the car all goes to the one who gave the gift. All boasting in the car goes to the giver, not the person who showed up to claim it. So it is with salvation. There is no credit to the person for being baptized; as Luke 17:7-10 says, "So you too, when you do all the things which were commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’" It is not creditworthy to do what is commanded.

More faulty human logic. I'm yet to receive a vehicle from a dealership as a gift.

The gift is not from the dealership. It is from the person who paid for it (Jesus).

I have always had to pay for it. (See Romans 4:4-6 for does not work but believes)

If you had to pay for it, then it was not a gift. But salvation is a gift, that we must take hold of. If we do not take hold of it (receive it as God tells us to), then we do not have the benefit of the gift, and will end up in Hell with the other nonbelievers.

I took possession of the gift of eternal life and also received the gift of the Holy Spirit several years ago when I believed in/place my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 6:23; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8,9) My faith (belief, trust, reliance) remains 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Your faith remains in water and works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

Again, you make aspersions on my character that are not true. My faith is not in water or works, but rests 100% in the Lord Jesus Christ. He alone can cleanse sin, and He alone can set the requirements for receiving His gift of salvation from sin. He is the one who commanded repentance, confession, and baptism as the requirements to receive/unwrap His gift. And NOTHING will cause Him to give His gift to anyone who does not do what He says.

 

[mailmandan]

I have never said that Naaman's sins were forgiven when he dipped in Jordan. There is no mention of his sin in the telling of the story. But his healing was a gift none the less, just as all of God's actions toward man are gifts. God does not owe man anything whatsoever, for any reason. Life is a gift, the breath in our lungs is a gift, salvation is a gift, healing (when it is given) is a gift, struggles are a gift.... Scripture does not need to state that it was a gift for us to understand this truth. Quit with the lame-duck strawman arguments, they do you no credit.

Again, I have never said that water baptism literally remits sin. It is the Holy Spirit who cuts our sin from us DURING water baptism (Col 2:11-14). It is not the water, but the faith which is perfected (made complete) in the act of obedience of water baptism that removes sin (1 Pet 3:21).

Going back to the gift of a car example: is there any boasting or credit due to the person who shows up at the dealership? Do the dealer or salesman credit themselves with greater income because the person to whom the car was given shows up? No. No additional money is made, nor is there any credit due to the person who shows up. The credit for the car all goes to the one who gave the gift. All boasting in the car goes to the giver, not the person who showed up to claim it. So it is with salvation. There is no credit to the person for being baptized; as Luke 17:7-10 says, "So you too, when you do all the things which were commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’" It is not creditworthy to do what is commanded.

The gift is not from the dealership. It is from the person who paid for it (Jesus).

If you had to pay for it, then it was not a gift. But salvation is a gift, that we must take hold of. If we do not take hold of it (receive it as God tells us to), then we do not have the benefit of the gift, and will end up in Hell with the other nonbelievers.

Again, you make aspersions on my character that are not true. My faith is not in water or works, but rests 100% in the Lord Jesus Christ. He alone can cleanse sin, and He alone can set the requirements for receiving His gift of salvation from sin. He is the one who commanded repentance, confession, and baptism as the requirements to receive/unwrap His gift. And NOTHING will cause Him to give His gift to anyone who does not do what He says.

Your logic remains faulty, and your faith remains in the wrong object. If your faith rested 100% in the Lord Jesus Christ then you would be trusting 100% in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) but instead, your faith rests in moral self-reformation/behavior modification that you call repentance, along with lip service confession and being immersed in H20 as a supplemental means to receiving salvation. You turn repentance, confession and baptism into works salvation.

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is believing the gospel/placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (11:17,18; Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation (Romans 10:8-11; 1 Corinthians 12:3) and remission of sin takes place when we believe in Him before water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) The remission of sin along with being buried and raised with Him is signified but not procured in water baptism. Your 4-step CoC gospel plan (that is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) is not based on Jesus' requirements for salvation but is based on your eisegesis.

 

[Doug Brents]

Your logic remains faulty, and your faith remains in the wrong object. If your faith rested 100% in the Lord Jesus Christ then you would be trusting 100% in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) but instead, your faith rests in moral self-reformation/behavior modification that you call repentance, along with lip service confession and being immersed in H20 as a supplemental means to receiving salvation. You turn repentance, confession and baptism into works salvation.

No, that is not where my faith rests. You are misrepresenting what I have said, and what Scripture says.
Repentance is not "moral self-reformation". It is turning to God to allow Him to cleanse us. And then continually turning back to Him (as David did, to allow Him to continually cleanse us)
Confession of Christ as Lord is not merely "lip service" or it has no value. It must be a true, heart-felt, surrender that makes Jesus truly Lord of our life.
And being immersed in water is not supplemental to anything. It is simply the point at which God says the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins.
Every passage of Scripture that I have cited in regard to salvation states, implies, or affirms that it is Jesus' blood that provides the power, and the Holy Spirit who provides the active mechanism, and our faith that provides the conduit for the the gift of salvation from God to us.

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is believing the gospel/placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (11:17,18; Acts 20:21)

The new direction is not "believing the gospel/placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation". Acts 3:19 says, "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord". RETURN? Return to what? It cannot be 'return to belief in the Gospel', because the ones being instructed to repent had never heard the Gospel before. It is return to God, and faithful obedience to Him.

Confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvation (Romans 10:8-11; 1 Corinthians 12:3)

Confession is an act of faith that RESULTS in salvation being received. That makes it a condition, a requirement, a prerequisite for the reception of salvation. That doesn't make it a "price to pay" because it costs nothing to do it. But it does cost everything not to do it. As for 1 Cor 12:3, you assume from that verse that the actions of the Holy Spirit in a person to confess Christ means that that person must already be saved. But nothing could be further from the truth. The Holy Spirit is not restricted to only working in lives of the saved. He can manifest His power through the saved, the lost, non-human animals, and even the inanimate things of this world. And stating that Jesus is Lord does not make a person saved, as Jesus says in Matt 7:21.

and remission of sin takes place when we believe in Him before water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)

There is NOTHING in Acts 10:43-47 that mentions that the Gentile's sins were forgiven or that they were saved before they were baptized. You are reading your preconception into Scripture (eisegesis), and not accepting what is actually said. If they were already saved by the Holy Spirit falling on them in power, then they would not have needed water baptism.

The remission of sin along with being buried and raised with Him is signified but not procured in water baptism. Your 4-step CoC gospel plan (that is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) is not based on Jesus' requirements for salvation but is based on your eisegesis.

The remission of sin and being united to Jesus' death and resurrection happens by the Holy Spirit's action during water baptism, just as Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, and 1 Pet 3:21 all say. No, it is not the water that does this. It is the Holy Spirit that does this DURING water baptism. It is your flawed understanding of what faith is, and what God demands, that results from your eisegesis.