"Works Salvation"

[Studyman]

Where in 2 Kings chapter 5 was receiving healing from leprosy for Naaman referred to as a gift? The only place we see the word gift is in verse 15 in which Naaman offered the man of God (Elisha) a gift after he was healed from leprosy, but he refused to accept it. for Elisha to accept the gift may have given the impression that he is personally responsible for what happened.
Naaman received healing from leprosy (not the gift of eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan.

So then let me make sure I understand your preaching here. In your religion, God healing Naaman, raising the young child from the dead through Elisha, Jesus healing the crippled man at the pool, and God raising Lazarus through Him, are not gifts from God, because the word "gift" wasn't in the text?

Jesus, that is, the Jesus "of the bible" says that a man can be saved/cleansed, but only if the man repents. He also says that a man can be cleansed/saved, but only if this man eats His Flesh, and Drinks His Blood. The exact same Spirit of God that was in this Jesus, also told Naaman that he could be cleansed/saved but only if he washed in the Jordan River 7 times.

How are all these "works" of the Holy Spirit, not promoting the exact same Gospel? How are they all not promoting the exact same message?

Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins but signifies it. The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the sovereignty of God and not receiving the gift of eternal life via H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with receiving eternal life via H2O but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

That is your opinion of the story, viewed through the religious philosophy that Jesus and His Father healing/cleansing mortal men is not a gift from God. I don't believe the Scriptures bear this teaching out. And why did God work Miracles through Jesus, if not to declare, "there is a prophet in Israel".

John 10: 37 If I "do not the works" of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe "the works": that ye may know, and believe, that "the Father is in me", and I in him.

John 11: 45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things "which Jesus did", believed on him.

Are you really preaching to everyone that God raising Lazarus from the dead, raising a child from the dead, cleansing Naaman of a horrible, devastating disease, healing the man with a withered hand, were not all gifts from God? And what was the purpose of all these gifts, if not to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel"?

John 11: 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but "because of the people which stand by" I said it, that "they may believe" that thou hast sent me.

Isn't God sending this Jesus the Greatest Gift of all?

Your illustrations equate receiving a gift to salvation by works.

The Jesus "of the Bible" Himself, tells you that unless you repent, there is NO GIFT of Salvation for you. HE Himself tells you in your own Bible, that unless you "eat His Flesh, and Drink His Blood" there is NO GIFT of Salvation for you. That if you "work iniquity", HE doesn't even know you.

It was the "other voice" in the garden that convinced Eve she that God lied to her. This is the Same Spirit which exists today in the "Children of Disobedience".

Why did Jesus bring up Naaman in the first place?

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

I know you can't answer, but for others reading along, those many "Christians" in Matt. 7, why didn't they receive the Free Gift of Salvation? Jesus tells us why, how come "many", who call Him Lord, Lord, don't believe Him?

At some point, in my view, a man needs to consider what the Jesus "of the Bible" actually says, and stop "yield themselves" servants to obey the philosophies and traditions of modern religious businesses who Profess to know God, or "Come in Christ's Name".

You seem determined to do something and add it to the finished work of Christ in order to help Jesus save you and take credit for doing your part. Let the boasting begin! Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

Truly this is a seductive religious philosophy, and "many" walk the path that promotes it, as the Jesus "of the bible" warns. But Passover is the "Beginning" of Salvation, not the end. The earth is still here, Jesus has not yet returned to fulfill the last of His Prophesy. Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according "as his work" shall be".

What I advocate is that a man turns away from "The course (religions) of this world, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience" and believe in the Jesus "of the Bible", and all of Paul's teaching. And that men do not yield themselves servants to obey this world's religious businesses, with their judgments, high days, traditions and images of God. But that men place their Faith in God, as Jesus and Paul did, and as Paul and Jesus both teach;

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

There is a cost, as Jesus teaches, but the Labor is worth the effort. As Paul teaches.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

More faulty human logic. I'm yet to receive a vehicle from a dealership as a gift. I have always had to pay for it. (See Romans 4:4-6 for does not work but believes) I took possession of the gift of eternal life and also received the gift of the Holy Spirit several years ago when I believed in/place my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 6:23; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8,9) My faith (belief, trust, reliance) remains 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Your faith remains in water and works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

If a man's Faith was truly in the Jesus "of the Bible", he would be a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. The religious business, whose philosophies you have adopted, cannot save you. Remember what Jesus said;

John 15: 14 Ye are my friends, "if" ye do "whatsoever I command you".

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for "all things that I have heard of my Father" I have made known unto you.

It is the Gospel of "This" Christ, that I advocate for.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Consider real life scenarios and probably we will understand you better, my friend.
If we stay in the realm of theory, this debate will be endless.

Here is a real life scenario:

A young lady goes to College and after 6 years graduates as a Medical Doctor with a Cum Laude.
Who achieved this? Was it God? Was the young lady?
Are there reasons for the young lady to feel proud? What about their parents? Or is that pride sinful? Why?

View attachment 1257

Its a false premis though

the girl had to work hard to earn that degree,

There is absolutely nothing you could do to earn your salvation.

If you think you have to work to graduate to eternal life. well then your already in trouble

 

[Studyman]

That question is key.
Thanks for bringing it to the table, Studyman.

You are welcome my friend. I believe it is worth pondering and seeking the answer to, although it can be a hard question, I think Paul helps with the answer. (The Bible is my only reference point for study, so please forgive my constant turning to it, to explain/ share my understanding)

Gal. 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life "which I now live in the flesh" (This would be the New Man, yes? The "born again" creature) I live by "the faith" of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, (Blood of goats and calves sprinkled on the alter) then Christ is dead in vain.

Great Study.

You have a good day my friend.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That question is key.
Thanks for bringing it to the table, Studyman.

it would still be works righteousness if your doing them to get saved, remain saved, or keep you from losing salvation.

They are motivated for self (I have to to stay saved) not for God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You must receive His gift, or you don't have the benefit of it. It is sitting on the table right in front of you, but you have to reach out and take it (He does not dump it out on you).

Nope. Again, Jesus used the serpent as an example.

Num 21: 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

God healed them.
They did not heal themselves.
and they did not do any work of merit to be healed.

And jesus said, just as Moses lifted that serpent, so must he be raised so whoever believes in him will not perish.

We do not save ourself. God does all the work.

In order to take hold of it, you must repent of your sins (Acts 3:19), you must confess that He is your lord verbally and publicly (Rom 10:9-10), and you must be baptized in water (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21). These three actions RESULT IN/LEAD TO receiving His gift of salvation. If they aren't done, then you don't receive the gift.

Yeah.. There you go with all your works.. Your trying to merit salvation my friend.

He did when you were baptized in water. If you weren't, then you haven't been. There is NO OTHER WAY.

He baptized me into Christ, his death and his body a year before I was immersed in water.

Ignoring His command is also discounting His value, and that is what you are teaching. It is not "replacing His work" to say that He gives His gift to those who obey Him. That is just taking Him at His word (Heb 5:9).

I did not ignore his command

Paul is the one who taught what I do. He (along with the other Apostles and early leaders of the Church) taught exactly what I am saying, because it is from them that I learned it.

Paul did not teach what you are teaching.

 

[Studyman]

it would still be works righteousness if your doing them to get saved, remain saved, or keep you from losing salvation.

They are motivated for self (I have to to stay saved) not for God.

What if the Jesus, "of the bible" and the Holy scriptures are right. And it is your adopted religious philosophy that is wrong. There is not one place in the Bible that says Salvation is a free gift from God. God's Grace is a Free gift, His Mercy to give you a shot at Salvation. The Passover Lamb was killed while Israel was yet in Egypt. It was a free gift of God to them. Christ died for me while I was yet in my sins, it was a free gift of God for me. This Grace, reconciles us to God, gives us a clean slate to begin anew. To "put on" the New man, no longer living by the religious traditions and philosophies of this world's religious system, but as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches;

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Paul didn't want you to be ignorant of the Biblical Truth that Israel received the Gift of God's Grace, the Passover Lamb was slain while they were yet in Egypt. But this didn't assure their salvation, as many were overthrown in the wilderness. Paul said these were examples written specifically for you and me. (1 Cor. 10)

Passover, God's Grace, is the beginning of Salvation, not the end, as this world's religious businesses and sects promote.

This and many other Scriptures prove that God's Grace is given to "many" (Many are called), but few "Yield themselves" servants to obey God, as Paul instructs. (Few are chosen)

I know how popular this world's religious sects and businesses are, as men have always been influenced by the "other voice" in the garden.

But shouldn't a man consider what the Jesus "of the bible" actually teaches, if they are going to call Him Lord, Lord?

 

[Obadiah]

What if the Jesus, "of the bible" and the Holy scriptures are right. And it is your adopted religious philosophy that is wrong. There is not one place in the Bible that says Salvation is a free gift from God. God's Grace is a Free gift, His Mercy to give you a shot at Salvation. The Passover Lamb was killed while Israel was yet in Egypt. It was a free gift of God to them. Christ died for me while I was yet in my sins, it was a free gift of God for me. This Grace, reconciles us to God, gives us a clean slate to begin anew. To "put on" the New man, no longer living by the religious traditions and philosophies of this world's religious system, but as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches;

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Paul didn't want you to be ignorant of the Biblical Truth that Israel received the Gift of God's Grace, the Passover Lamb was slain while they were yet in Egypt. But this didn't assure their salvation, as many were overthrown in the wilderness. Paul said these were examples written specifically for you and me. (1 Cor. 10)

Passover, God's Grace, is the beginning of Salvation, not the end, as this world's religious businesses and sects promote.

This and many other Scriptures prove that God's Grace is given to "many" (Many are called), but few "Yield themselves" servants to obey God, as Paul instructs. (Few are chosen)

I know how popular this world's religious sects and businesses are, as men have always been influenced by the "other voice" in the garden.

But shouldn't a man consider what the Jesus "of the bible" actually teaches, if they are going to call Him Lord, Lord?

You and I are not saved because we have enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord. Notice how Paul ends this passage: It is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. Ephesians 2:8–9

7 Bible verses about Salvation, As A Gift

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

 

[praise_yeshua]

What if the Jesus, "of the bible" and the Holy scriptures are right. And it is your adopted religious philosophy that is wrong. There is not one place in the Bible that says Salvation is a free gift from God.

Funny...... you must be accustom to expect something from a gift......

Is that why you give something?

It amazes me at just how corrupt modern sensibilities have become....

The value of Eternal life (gift) can not be repaid.

BTW..... when is Jesus actually going to mean anything to you? You only reference Jesus when it is essential to your theology. That must be such a wonderful relationship you have going...

 

[Doug Brents]

Nope. Again, Jesus used the serpent as an example.

Num 21: 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

God healed them.
They did not heal themselves.
and they did not do any work of merit to be healed.

Correct, but they had to look at the bronze serpent to be healed. If they did not look at the bronze serpent, they were not healed. Did looking at the bronze serpent add to God's power to heal them? No. Did looking at the bronze serpent "earn" them healing? No. But were they healed if they didn't look at it? Again, NO!

And jesus said, just as Moses lifted that serpent, so must he be raised so whoever believes in him will not perish.

We do not save ourself. God does all the work.

Certainly He does. But not if we refuse to obey Him.

Yeah.. There you go with all your works.. Your trying to merit salvation my friend.

Not my works, but the works commanded by God that HE (not I) says lead to/result in receiving His gift of salvation.

He baptized me into Christ, his death and his body a year before I was immersed in water.

You may think that He did, but Scripture says differently.

Paul did not teach what you are teaching.

Rom 6:1-7
Col 2:11-14
Gal 3:26-27
Eph 5:26-27
All these passages are Paul telling us that it is in water baptism that we receive salvation, are washed clean, are adopted as God's children, are unite to Jesus' death and resurrection, etc. Paul did indeed teach what I am teaching, because it is from him that I learned most of what I am teaching.

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

There is no way anyone can read Jesus teachings in the gospels and walk away thinking He did not command and demand obedience to be His disciple. Faith and obedience are 2 sides of the same coin.

Yeah but you have to be saved first to become a disciple, obedience is only for the new creature, not the dead old creature.

You guys are making obedience to be a condition to meet in order to get saved. Thats works salvation

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What if the Jesus, "of the bible" and the Holy scriptures are right. And it is your adopted religious philosophy that is wrong. There is not one place in the Bible that says Salvation is a free gift from God. God's Grace is a Free gift, His Mercy to give you a shot at Salvation. The Passover Lamb was killed while Israel was yet in Egypt. It was a free gift of God to them. Christ died for me while I was yet in my sins, it was a free gift of God for me. This Grace, reconciles us to God, gives us a clean slate to begin anew. To "put on" the New man, no longer living by the religious traditions and philosophies of this world's religious system, but as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches;

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Paul didn't want you to be ignorant of the Biblical Truth that Israel received the Gift of God's Grace, the Passover Lamb was slain while they were yet in Egypt. But this didn't assure their salvation, as many were overthrown in the wilderness. Paul said these were examples written specifically for you and me. (1 Cor. 10)

Passover, God's Grace, is the beginning of Salvation, not the end, as this world's religious businesses and sects promote.

This and many other Scriptures prove that God's Grace is given to "many" (Many are called), but few "Yield themselves" servants to obey God, as Paul instructs. (Few are chosen)

I know how popular this world's religious sects and businesses are, as men have always been influenced by the "other voice" in the garden.

But shouldn't a man consider what the Jesus "of the bible" actually teaches, if they are going to call Him Lord, Lord?

Lets see,

Your preaching religion (look at me God)
And I am not

and your going to attempt to judge me about religion.

lol. You should practice your nic-name more..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Correct, but they had to look at the bronze serpent to be healed. If they did not look at the bronze serpent, they were not healed. Did looking at the bronze serpent add to God's power to heal them? No. Did looking at the bronze serpent "earn" them healing? No. But were they healed if they didn't look at it? Again, NO!

Looking at a serpent in faith and quite different than walking to some place and getting baptized.

Certainly He does. But not if we refuse to obey Him.

Where do you come up with this nonsense? A true child of God does not refuse to obey.

Not my works, but the works commanded by God that HE (not I) says lead to/result in receiving His gift of salvation.

Then these are your works. Your doing these works to merit a reward. in this case salvation

You may think that He did, but Scripture says differently.

Rom 6:1-7
Col 2:11-14
Gal 3:26-27
Eph 5:26-27
All these passages are Paul telling us that it is in water baptism that we receive salvation, are washed clean, are adopted as God's children, are unite to Jesus' death and resurrection, etc. Paul did indeed teach what I am teaching, because it is from him that I learned most of what I am teaching.

My friend, water is not found in those verses.

Like another member you have water on your mind. let go of it

Those verses say I was baptized (immersed, Plunged into) The body of Christ, Into Christ, Into his death. and it is a spiritual circumcision done by the hand of God not men

 

[Doug Brents]

Looking at a serpent in faith and quite different than walking to some place and getting baptized.

In what way?
Both are an action God commanded with a gift attached as a result.
Neither in any way "earns" or contributes to the value of the gift.
Both constitute an action of faith in God's provision.
Neither action can be construed to actually cause the healing that God says the action results in producing.

Where do you come up with this nonsense? A true child of God does not refuse to obey.

It is in obedience that we become children of God (Gal 3:26-27, Heb 5:9).

Then these are your works. Your doing these works to merit a reward. in this case salvation

It they aren't my words, then they aren't my works. But you'll think of anything that prevents you from accepting the truth. There is no value toward salvation (or anything else) in repenting and baptism, just as there is no value for curing leprosy in dipping seven times in a dirty river, or in marching around a city for seven days for knocking the walls down, or in borrowing all the jars you can for pouring oil from a small jar to fill all the many larger jars, or in looking a a bronze snake on a pole for curing the poison caused by a snake bite. These are all God's works that He commanded people to do to receive His blessing/gift.

My friend, water is not found in those verses.

There is only one baptism of any significance in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6), and that one baptism brings salvation and requires water (1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16), and must be done by man (Matt 28:19). Any passage of Scripture that talks about baptism and salvation is talking about water baptism.

Like another member you have water on your mind. let go of it

No, I have Scripture on my mind, and Scripture talks about water baptism as being the point at which we receive salvation from God.

Those verses say I was baptized (immersed, Plunged into) The body of Christ, Into Christ, Into his death. and it is a spiritual circumcision done by the hand of God not men

No, they say that the Holy Spirit does it during water baptism that man (the teacher (Matt 28:19) must perform on the student (Acts 2:38).

 

[dwight92070]

@civic



Yeah but you have to be saved first to become a disciple, obedience is only for the new creature, not the dead old creature.

You guys are making obedience to be a condition to meet in order to get saved. Thats works salvation

I agree. Repentance and faith, leading to forgiveness of sins, comes before obedience in doing any good works.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree. Repentance and faith, leading to forgiveness of sins, comes before obedience in doing any good works.

What you talking about is works. Repentance and faith are works, and you seem to be conditioning forgiveness of sins on doing them. Those whom Christ died for, they are automatically forgiven of their sins, even b4 they believe and yet ungodly. Forgiveness was by the Blood of Christ and grace of God Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[Runningman]

Yes, obedience in doing God's will is not a naughty word....obedience is a good word. Great men in the Bible were obedient to God, Christ Himself was obedient to His Father.

It is those who obey God's will are the ones God accepts Acts 10:34-35. Jesus is the Author of salvation to all that obey him (Heb 5:9) It is the faith onlyists who do not like the word obedience and try to dirty it up by calling it "legalism" or attempting to call obedience a work of merit when obedience and works of merit are two completely different things....all works are not alike...some works cannot save while work of obedience to God's will does save, see Rom 10:3

Amen.

 

[Studyman]

You and I are not saved because we have enduring faith.

Thank you for your reply, but I have learned long ago not to trust Google or AI, or any of this world's religious businesses, web sites or sermons to understand God.

I believe it is important to consider and believe what the Lord's Christ, His Father, and the Apostles His Father gave to Him actually said, in order to understand HIS Gospel. This was never possible for this world's religions who selected some of God's Word to promote, while omitting the rest as did the Pharisees and also the Serpent in the Garden.

The Jesus "of the Bible" said:

Matt. 24: 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This same Jesus said,

Matt. 7: 22 "Many" will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that "work" iniquity.

24 Therefore (Because of this) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and "doeth" them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, (Storms of this life) and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one "that heareth these sayings of mine", and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, (Storms of this life) and beat upon that house; and it fell: "and great was the fall of it."

I can't make you consider these Words of the Jesus "of the Bible", or Paul's words that I referenced in the post you replied to, but you didn't even acknowledge.

Nevertheless, my understanding of Scriptures is gained through believe in "Every" inspired Word of God. If you want to continue in the religious philosophy that Passover in the End of Salvation, you are free to do so.

But I advocate believing on the Jesus of the Bible, enough to be a "doer" of His Sayings, just as Abraham was a Doer of His Father's Sayings. This is what "Faith" is, that is, the Faith of the Jesus "of the Bible".

We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord.

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches that WE are to endure to the end of our lives. Those who do, shall be saved.

Notice how Paul ends this passage: It is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. Ephesians 2:8–9

Grace is a Gift of God, given to us while we are yet in our sins, therefore, we had nothing to do with God's decision to give us His Grace.

But it seems hypocritical to believe this sentence from Paul, and not his other teaching.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

This is after Paul has received God's Grace. It is not the "END" of God's Salvation, as "many" who "transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ would have you believe. God's Grace is the beginning of His Salvation, as Paul clearly teaches.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, "according to that he hath done", whether it be good or bad.

So after the Grace of God has come, we embark on the journey to Salvation, as in the Exodus.

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (Unleavened Bread)

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That is the whole purpose of God's Grace, that we can be "renewed in the spirit of our mind".

7 Bible verses about Salvation, As A Gift

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

Ephesians teaches also that the Grace of God "leads" us to God's Salvation, makes Salvation possible for us "through Faith".

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But if a man doesn't believe the Words of God given us through the Jesus "of the bible" and the Apostles God gave to Him, there is no Faith.

 

[mailmandan]

No, that is not where my faith rests.

Yes, it does. You remain in denial Doug.

You are misrepresenting what I have said, and what Scripture says.

Not at all. If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now Doug and Jesus asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer. Your answer to this question will demonstrate what you have placed your faith in/what you are trusting in for salvation.

Repentance is not "moral self-reformation". It is turning to God to allow Him to cleanse us. And then continually turning back to Him (as David did, to allow Him to continually cleanse us)

Like I said. You turn repentance into moral self-reformation. Thank you for proving my point. In regard to receiving salvation, repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21) After David sincerely repented for his grave sins of adultery and murder, God forgave him and continued to bless him and maintain him as king. David was still a man after God's own heart, even though he messed up big time and David still faced certain consequences for his actions.

People can repent of certain other things after they are saved. In Luke 17:3,4, we read - Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Repentance here is not in regard to obtaining salvation. This brother is already saved. We turn from darkness to light and receive remission of sins when we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 26:18)

Confession of Christ as Lord is not merely "lip service" or it has no value.

It's "lip service" for those who fail to accomplish God's will in order to become saved. (Matthew 7:21-23; John 6:40)

It must be a true, heart-felt, surrender that makes Jesus truly Lord of our life.

There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. Surrender to Christ in faith and not works righteousness. Simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

And being immersed in water is not supplemental to anything.

If it is absolutely required for salvation, then it's supplemental to the gospel of Christ that is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) Either Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior or else He is an IN-sufficient Savior. You can't have it both ways. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed.

It is simply the point at which God says the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins.

It is simply the point at which it is signified but not procured. Sins are removed when we believe/place our faith in Christ for salvation. (Acts 10:43; 26:18) Your faith remains in water baptism for salvation and not in Christ alone.

Every passage of Scripture that I have cited in regard to salvation states, implies, or affirms that it is Jesus' blood that provides the power, and the Holy Spirit who provides the active mechanism, and our faith that provides the conduit for the the gift of salvation from God to us.

Yet you add works to faith, so it becomes faith and works.

The new direction is not "believing the gospel/placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation".

Yes, it is. In Mark 1:15, Jesus said - "repent and believe the gospel." In Acts 11:17, Peter said - "If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ" and in verse 18 Peter referred to this as repentance unto life. In Acts 20:21, Paul said - "repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." It's disturbing and disappointing that you cannot understand this.

Acts 3:19 says, "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord". RETURN? Return to what?

In context, Peter is addressing "Men of Israel" who were guilty of crucifying their Messiah.

It cannot be 'return to belief in the Gospel', because the ones being instructed to repent had never heard the Gospel before. It is return to God, and faithful obedience to Him.

I agree that it's not return to belief in the gospel. Through repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21) they would be returning to God from being guilty of crucifying their Messiah, and their obedience/works would be the fruit of their repentance. (Matthew 3:8)

Confession is an act of faith that RESULTS in salvation being received. That makes it a condition, a requirement, a prerequisite for the reception of salvation.

Confession is an expression of faith and a confirmation of divine influence by the Holy Spirit. It's not a work for salvation that happens days or weeks after we believe unto righteousness. (Romans 4:5-6) The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10) So, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

That doesn't make it a "price to pay" because it costs nothing to do it. But it does cost everything not to do it.

Based on your eisegesis you turn confession into a work for salvation just as you do with baptism.

As for 1 Cor 12:3, you assume from that verse that the actions of the Holy Spirit in a person to confess Christ means that that person must already be saved. But nothing could be further from the truth. The Holy Spirit is not restricted to only working in lives of the saved. He can manifest His power through the saved, the lost, non-human animals, and even the inanimate things of this world. And stating that Jesus is Lord does not make a person saved, as Jesus says in Matt 7:21.

The Holy Spirit is involved in pre-salvation ministry. In Acts 16:14, we read - Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. If there is no additional work, or influence, of the Holy Spirit, then the Lord "opened her heart," is superfluous. While the word is the means of communicating that which is to be believed, the additional unseen work of the Holy Spirit is also necessary. Paul referred to his preaching as being "in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power." (I Corinthians 2:4)

In 1 Thessalonians 1:5, we read - For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit.. There is more involved in coming to saving faith in Christ than merely paper, ink and human intelligence.

There is NOTHING in Acts 10:43-47 that mentions that the Gentile's sins were forgiven or that they were saved before they were baptized.

For the sake of your biased church doctrine, you remain in absolute denial here Doug. These Gentiles clearly believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved before water baptism. Acts 10:43-47 is crystal clear on that. Acts 10:43 is also crystal clear - Whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.

You are reading your preconception into Scripture (eisegesis) and not accepting what is actually said.

You are the master of irony. To read Acts 10:43-47 any other way than it's crystal-clear meaning is to be blatantly dishonest.

If they were already saved by the Holy Spirit falling on them in power, then they would not have needed water baptism.

The gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on these Gentiles. (Acts 10:45) Peter asked, Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” The truth is crystal clear Doug. Please stop fighting against the truth.

Compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The remission of sin and being united to Jesus' death and resurrection happens by the Holy Spirit's action during water baptism, just as Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, and 1 Pet 3:21 all say.

No, it's merely signified but not procured in water baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said, "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." - https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

No, it is not the water that does this. It is the Holy Spirit that does this DURING water baptism.

It's not the water that does this or the mechanical act of getting water baptized. It is the Holy Spirit that does this when we believe the gospel and are baptized by one Spirit into one body (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13) and drink into one Spirit. (See John 4:10,14; 7:37-39) Other verses for you to see (Acts 10:43; 11:17; 15:7-9; 26:18)

It is your flawed understanding of what faith is, and what God demands, that results from your eisegesis.

That statement is the EPITOME of IRONY. Mere mental assent belief conjoined with works is your understanding of what faith is and you cannot grasp a deeper faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation which also explains why you do not understand what God demands that results from your eisegesis. Whatever we are trusting in for salvation that is what we have placed our faith in. For me it's Jesus Christ alone. For you it's Jesus Christ (at best for the most part) and in works (at least in part).

 

[Seabass]

@Seabass



One cannot obey Gods will until they are saved from disobedience, by nature we are children of disobedience Eph 2:1-3


As long as we are in nature, we walk , live in disobedience

Now obedience is after the sanctifying work of the Spirit, which saves us with a new nature, unto obedience 1 Pet 1:2,22

2 ;Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

If you can obey God evangelically in the Gospel b4 this saving of the Spirit, congratulations you are your own saviour from sin

Total depravity is a false idea that comes from the Calvinism, not the BIble.

Eph 2:1-3
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

Paul said those Ephesians came to the position of being "children of wrath" by how they "walked" and by their "doing". Both verbs being active voice shows their personal involvement in committing sins not how they were innately, passively born against their will having not committed any sin (Rom 9:11). The Bible defines sin as a transgression, (1 Jn 3:4) they "walked" in sin and were "doing" sin. Sin is not just an abstract idea that is UNconditionally passed from parents to infant when the infant has not committed a transgression. Impossible for an infant to be a sinner when he has not committed any sin. Walking to the course of this world and doing desires of the flesh are not sins infants are capable of committing. Only those of age who understand right from wrong are capable of committing such sins.

Paul says NOTHING here about infants being innately, UNconditionally born sinners. If all children are innately, passively born children of wrath, then Paul contradicts Christ when Christ said people have to become as little children to enter the kingdom. One cannot be in the kingdom and under God's wrath at the same time.

The word "nature" in this Eph 2 context means a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature. They had habitually walked in sin and doing sin for so long it became part of their nature...not how they were passively innately born. If sin being inherited were Paul's point, he could have easily said "ye BY BIRTH became children of wrath" but Paul never implied nor said such.

"..were by nature children of wrath"....the verb 'were" is imperfect tense middle voice. The imperfect tense denotes an action in the past (how they "walked" and "doing" desires of the flesh) done on an ongoing basis. The middle voice show their personal involvement in committing those sins and becoming children of wrath. Combining the imperfect with the middle we have "you kept on making yourselves children of wrath". How? By their HABITUALLY having walked and done sin in the past and not how they were innately passively born.

If total depravity were true it would have all who dies as infants lost in hell.

Those Jews in Acts 2 Peter preached to were lost, 'unregenerate" as Calvinism would say. Yet the context does NOT teach Calvinism, it does NOT say those Jews were totally unable to listen to Peter, unable to understand, unable to react, unable to obey Peter's commands. The context shows just the opposite....they were willing and able to hear, able to understand. able to ask what they must do and able to obey Peter's commands all while supposedly unregenerate, totally unable to according to Calvinism. If God/Holy Spirit only "enabled" 3000 to hear, understand, obey Peter then it was God's desire most Jews be lost yet it's God's desire that not any perish, (2 Pet 3:9-10).

If those Jews in Acts 2 were "totally depraved" then they could only do what total depravity dictates, hence totally depravity dictated to them to kill Jesus Christ, they had no ability to do otherwise. Hence God could not rightly, justly condemn them for how they were innately born. A person innately born without legs cannot be justly, rightly condemned for not walking. Hence Calvinism attacks the very just, right nature of God.

Therefore those Jews in Acts 2 did not have totally inability, they were not innately born children of wrath for they did have the ability to listen, understand and obey. And those that rejected Peter's words did so by willful choice, not dictated by how they were innately born, hence God can justly, rightly condemn the choices people willfully make.

 

[brightfame52]

Total depravity is a false idea that comes from the Calvinism, not the BIble.

Eph 2:1-3
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

Paul said those Ephesians came to the position of being "children of wrath" by how they "walked" and by their "doing". Both verbs being active voice shows their personal involvement in committing sins not how they were innately, passively born against their will having not committed any sin (Rom 9:11). The Bible defines sin as a transgression, (1 Jn 3:4) they "walked" in sin and were "doing" sin. Sin is not just an abstract idea that is UNconditionally passed from parents to infant when the infant has not committed a transgression. Impossible for an infant to be a sinner when he has not committed any sin. Walking to the course of this world and doing desires of the flesh are not sins infants are capable of committing. Only those of age who understand right from wrong are capable of committing such sins.

Paul says NOTHING here about infants being innately, UNconditionally born sinners. If all children are innately, passively born children of wrath, then Paul contradicts Christ when Christ said people have to become as little children to enter the kingdom. One cannot be in the kingdom and under God's wrath at the same time.

The word "nature" in this Eph 2 context means a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature. They had habitually walked in sin and doing sin for so long it became part of their nature...not how they were passively innately born. If sin being inherited were Paul's point, he could have easily said "ye BY BIRTH became children of wrath" but Paul never implied nor said such.

"..were by nature children of wrath"....the verb 'were" is imperfect tense middle voice. The imperfect tense denotes an action in the past (how they "walked" and "doing" desires of the flesh) done on an ongoing basis. The middle voice show their personal involvement in committing those sins and becoming children of wrath. Combining the imperfect with the middle we have "you kept on making yourselves children of wrath". How? By their HABITUALLY having walked and done sin in the past and not how they were innately passively born.

If total depravity were true it would have all who dies as infants lost in hell.

Those Jews in Acts 2 Peter preached to were lost, 'unregenerate" as Calvinism would say. Yet the context does NOT teach Calvinism, it does NOT say those Jews were totally unable to listen to Peter, unable to understand, unable to react, unable to obey Peter's commands. The context shows just the opposite....they were willing and able to hear, able to understand. able to ask what they must do and able to obey Peter's commands all while supposedly unregenerate, totally unable to according to Calvinism. If God/Holy Spirit only "enabled" 3000 to hear, understand, obey Peter then it was God's desire most Jews be lost yet it's God's desire that not any perish, (2 Pet 3:9-10).

If those Jews in Acts 2 were "totally depraved" then they could only do what total depravity dictates, hence totally depravity dictated to them to kill Jesus Christ, they had no ability to do otherwise. Hence God could not rightly, justly condemn them for how they were innately born. A person innately born without legs cannot be justly, rightly condemned for not walking. Hence Calvinism attacks the very just, right nature of God.

Therefore those Jews in Acts 2 did not have totally inability, they were not innately born children of wrath for they did have the ability to listen, understand and obey. And those that rejected Peter's words did so by willful choice, not dictated by how they were innately born, hence God can justly, rightly condemn the choices people willfully make.

But men by nature are children of disobedience to God. How can they go against their nature and obey God ?