"Works Salvation"

[Dibromo]

If we must keep ourselves saved in order to not be lost, the simple conclusion is that we have something to boast about concerning our performance in comparison to those that lose their salvation.

If we can lose our salvation then it is ultimately dependent upon us to keep it, in the end, even God cannot save us unless we cross all our "T's" and dot all our "I's".

But in effect, isn’t this is a form of earning our salvation by our own righteousness? And isn’t such a teaching thoroughly rejected in Scripture?

Why would you have to work to keep a Free Gift?

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If we must keep ourselves saved in order to not be lost, the simple conclusion is that we have something to boast about concerning our performance in comparison to those that lose their salvation.

If we can lose our salvation then it is ultimately dependent upon us to keep it, in the end, even God cannot save us unless we cross all our "T's" and dot all our "I's".

But in effect, isn’t this is a form of earning our salvation by our own righteousness? And isn’t such a teaching thoroughly rejected in Scripture?

Why would you have to work to keep a Free Gift?

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23

More than keeping the gift I would think in using it.
The gift is only useful if we use it.
So think in salvation like a storehouse full of free-given delicious and nutritious food that makes you healthier and stronger as you eat it. If you keep eating from that food, you have abundant life.

Something like the tree of life in Eden.
We didn’t plant it. We didnt make it bear fruits of life. We don’t even understand how the tree “works”. But our task is to feed from it and enjoy it.

 

[Dizerner]

is ultimately dependent upon us

By this logic our initial free will decision to trust on Christ is "ultimately dependent upon us."

Thus, in your logic, it is a work of merit added to Christ's.

After all, what is greater grace than that you do nothing at all?

Why do you want to add your little free will decision to an already perfect work of grace?

Why do you want to boast in making the smarter and better and more righteous choice of accepting Jesus than your neighbor who didn't?


Or maybe...

If one moment of trust is required, a second moment is no more a work either. Nor a third.

 

[Dibromo]

By this logic our initial free will decision to trust on Christ is "ultimately dependent upon us."

You misinterpreted the post.

If we must keep ourselves saved in order to not be lost, the simple conclusion is that we have something to boast about concerning our performance in comparison to those that lose their salvation.

If we can lose our salvation then it is ultimately dependent upon us to keep it, in the end, even God cannot save us unless we cross all our "T's" and dot all our "I's".

But in effect, isn’t this is a form of earning our salvation by our own righteousness? And isn’t such a teaching thoroughly rejected in Scripture?

Why would you have to work to keep a Free Gift?

 

[Dizerner]

You misinterpreted the post.

Actually I used the exact same logic against him.

You just don't like the conclusion.

 

[mailmandan]

This issue is not about only about Christians continually living in defiance to God's will

Don't confuse genuine Christians with "nominal" or pseudo-Christians.

The issue is this: can an unsaved person be saved UNconditioanlly apart from obeying God? NO!

So, how much obedience does it take? I'm still waiting for you to draw the line in the sand and tell me how much obedience/works that it takes to help save yourself and keep yourself saved. Good luck with that! (Romans 3:23; 6:23)

Can a Christian UNCODNTIONALLY continued to receive grace and be saved even if that Christian turns away from God in disobedience? NO!

Oxymoron. (1 John 3:7-10)

So again, faith only does not cannot save a person.

Once again, stop confusing "faith only" per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works - James 2:14) with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This confusion remains your Achilles heel.

A person must FIRST CONDITIONALLY obey God THEN one receoves grace/salvation.

Just say it and don't try to sugar coat it. You teach salvation by faith (your version of faith) + obedience/works. So do Roman Catholics and Mormons.

Belief only = the word 'only' is an exclusionary word, it would exclude every thing from being saved except believing meaning it would exclude obedience in repentance, confession and submitting to baptism.

Repentance precedes saving belief/faith. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvaiton. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10) Belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Believers submit to baptism after they have been saved. (Acts 10:43-48)

This is why there is NOT ONE EXAMPLE in the NT of a person being saved by belief only, that is, saved APART from having first obeyed by repenting of sins, confessing with the mouth and submitting to baptism.

Once again, repentance precedes saving belief in Christ, and belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together, and water baptism "follows" saving belief in Christ. Your confusion here turns repentance, confession and baptism into works salvation.

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

Jn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Believe + what? Plus works? NO. Simply believe.

a) the verb "believeth" is present tense that shows a continued, ongoing action.

Present tense with ongoing results. Saving belief continues and is not something shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

This means a person is NOT saved UNconditionally at the moment of belief only (mental ascent of the mind apart from obedience) and continues to be saved UNconditionally...one must believe and keep on believing to continued to be saved. Those that quit believing no longer will be saved

You clearly do not understand saving belief that goes beyond mere mental assent and trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. You cannot grasp this deeper faith from the heart which also explains why you have so much faith in works. Those who continue to believe demonstrate they truly have been saved. Those who fail to continue demonstrate that saving belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

b) the verse says "believeth", it does NOT say "believeth alone".

The verse does not say believe + something else. Hence, believe alone.

Believe and believe alone are two totally different things.

When the word believe stands alone in numerous passages of scripture in connection with salvation then its not believe + works. Hence, believe alone.

As I have pointed out in pasts post all the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person, hence belief must include repentance, it must include confession (Mt 10:32-33) and baptism (Mk 16:16). Hence believe is used as a synecdoche where the part (believe) includes the whole (repentance confession, baptism)

You are thoroughly confused and your synecdoche argument is absolutely false. Repentance is a change of mind which precedes faith and confession is a confirmation of faith and not a work for salvaiton and baptism follows salvation through faith.Your flawed 4 step plan of salvation that culminates in salvation by water baptism is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Even baptism is used as a synecdoche when Peter said "baptism doth also now save us". Peter did NOT say baptism ALONE now saves us just as John did NOT say belief alone saves. Peter uses baptism as a synecdoche were the part (baptism) must include the whole (belief, repentance, confession).

More faulty human logic. You need to keep reading further in 1 Peter 3:21.
Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

Salvation by belief alone is another false concept not found in the NT gospel.

Belief alone is found in John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31: Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Salvation by works is a false concept not found in the NT gospel. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Belief alone does not save anymore than repentance alone cannot save, confession alone cannot save or baptism alone cannot save.

Belief alone does not mean that repentance did not precede saving belief in Christ or that the word of faith is in our heart but not in our mouth. I can tell that you have a very difficult time understanding what I have been explaining to you and there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

We are saved the moment we believe in/place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Your patched together false gospel that culminates in salvation by water baptism cannot save.

 

[Dibromo]

if God agreed to do 99 percent of the work of salvation but we were required to do 1 percent, we could have no certainty that we had accomplished our part of the bargain so that God could do His 99 percent. We would never really know we had done our 1 percent until after we had died—at which point it would be too late. So much for assurance of salvation.

This is why joining our salvation to works of righteousness can never be justified. To compromise on this is to let works salvation run amuck.

 

[Dibromo]

Actually I used the exact same logic against him.

You just don't like the conclusion.

Against who? What conclusion? You misinterpreted the post. That's on you.

 

[David Koberstein]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?

www.gotquestions.org

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny? Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

As a Messianic Jew we are required to do Mitzvah/Mitzvot which are acts of kindness.
I do not consider this 'works salvation '
Noah's work in building the ark also was not a 'works salvation' event.
You probably need to look at the prosperity preachers and their denominations.
Shalom

 

[mailmandan]

That's that's the problem it's not a matter of good works. It's a matter of pride in wanting to help and God out with our salvation. Man's pride insist that he has a hand in it somehow some way. That we just can't accept the free gift of salvation, we want to earn it so we can take pride in the wonderful job we've done. Like the Pharisees.

Exactly! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to place their faith in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works, and they will not let go in order to receive Jesus Christ through faith.

 

[Dizerner]

Thank you all for the opportunity to witness to the truth of Scripture here.

What each one does is up to them—you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

There's nothing left after that but each one's free will choice and then Judgment Day.

I hope there is repentance before then, and I will see you all there.

Regards in Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Believing is accepting. I believe the gift of Salvation is mine. I've accepted it. Therefore I'm able to say Jesus is Lord

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even many lost folks believe that - Matthew 7:22-23), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

 

[Studyman]

That Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord, was a just man and a preacher of righteousness and walked with God before he built the ark is a key issue of the heart. (Genesis 6:8-9; 2 Peter 2:5)

This is true, according to what is actually written in Scriptures.

Gen. 6: 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

But Noah "Repented" of his wickedness at some point, and as Paul teaches, he "Turned to God and brought forth works worthy of repentance". At some point, as Paul teaches, he would have "Let not sin therefore reign in his mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof" He would have been renewed in the spirit of his mind, to "Neither yield he his members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yielded himself unto God, as one that was alive from the dead, and his members as instruments of righteousness unto God". He would have become a servant of God's Righteousness, as Paul and Jesus both teach.

At some point he left the "Broad Path" that is walked by the masses who walk "After the course of this world, after the children of disobedience" and strived for the "Narrow Path" the Christ walked in and instructed others to Strive for. He would have left his country, and his kindred, and his father's house, unto a land that God promised to show him, as did Abraham. He became "God's workmanship", created in the Spirit of Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In the Holy Scriptures, this is called the "Faith of Christ", who "being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". Noah became a man "Faithful to God", a Just man who walked with God.

"By faith (Before the Command) Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith".

All this "BEFORE" the command to build the Ark.

 

[praise_yeshua]

As a Messianic Jew we are required to do Mitzvah/Mitzvot which are acts of kindness.
I do not consider this 'works salvation '
Noah's work in building the ark also was not a 'works salvation' event.
You probably need to look at the prosperity preachers and their denominations.
Shalom

Got to love Mitzvah. Many different meanings.... At times, Modern Hebrew is just as bad as English. That is all the understanding left to Hebrew is the Modern Hebrew established by the Masoretes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is true, according to what is actually written in Scriptures.

Gen. 6: 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

But Noah "Repented" of his wickedness at some point, and as Paul teaches, he "Turned to God and brought forth works worthy of repentance". At some point, as Paul teaches, he would have "Let not sin therefore reign in his mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof" He would have been renewed in the spirit of his mind, to "Neither yield he his members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yielded himself unto God, as one that was alive from the dead, and his members as instruments of righteousness unto God". He would have become a servant of God's Righteousness, as Paul and Jesus both teach.

At some point he left the "Broad Path" that is walked by the masses who walk "After the course of this world, after the children of disobedience" and strived for the "Narrow Path" the Christ walked in and instructed others to Strive for. He would have left his country, and his kindred, and his father's house, unto a land that God promised to show him, as did Abraham. He became "God's workmanship", created in the Spirit of Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In the Holy Scriptures, this is called the "Faith of Christ", who "being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". Noah became a man "Faithful to God", a Just man who walked with God.

"By faith (Before the Command) Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith".

All this "BEFORE" the command to build the Ark.

How did Noah undo what happened to the children of Ham?

 

[praise_yeshua]

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even many lost folks believe that - Matthew 7:22-23), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

You take this to mean that only the indwelling Holy Spirit can produce this speech from believers.

However, the work of the Holy Spirit has made known the Scriptures that reveal this information to mankind already. It is that work of the Holy Spirit in the Gentiles. We know this for certain because of the previous verse....

1Co 12:2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as you were led.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That's that's the problem it's not a matter of good works. It's a matter of pride in wanting to help and God out with our salvation. Man's pride insist that he has a hand in it somehow some way. That we just can't accept the free gift of salvation, we want to earn it so we can take pride in the wonderful job we've done. Like the Pharisees.

Dear Azriel, @mailmandan, @Dizerner, @Studyman and friends

We are misunderstanding each other so badly in debates of faith vs works!
NOBODY, from any side of the debate, thinks that pride or arrogance or self-rightenousness is acceptable before the eyes of God.
We all know that salvation is a free gift from God.

Inasmuch as there is no arrogance from our part, but humbleness in our approach to God, He accepts us, NO MATTER the inaccuracies or mistakes we make in debates like this.
It is the presence or absence of LOVE which makes our faith and works acceptable or unacceptable.

Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13:2-3:

• and if I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
• If I give all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing.

So, if I do works without the love of Christ in me, I am dead in my sins.
And I if I confess with my mouth that Christ is Lord, and I have not the love of Christ in me, I am dead in my sins.

That's why the inspired author says: "Above all things, have unfailing love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8)

God sent Christ out of love for us. Christ died out of love for us. We died to the old man and resurrected with Christ so that we could love each other. So salvation is all about love. Once we understand this, then faith and works fit in the picture naturally.

 

[Dizerner]

Inasmuch as there is no arrogance from our part, but humbleness in our approach to God, He accepts us,

When you are offended at God for doing something a certain way, that is by definition pride and self-righteousness.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

When you are offended at God for doing something a certain way, that is by definition pride and self-righteousness.

When God lives in you, you can't accept certain things as coming from God.
This is because the attributes of God are flourishing in you.

So, rejecting the notion that 25 million Sikhs will roast in hell forever due to their theology is not pride or self-righteousnsess.
It is rather an indication that God's love and justice are flourishing in your character. Pride is not compatible with love.