"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

When God lives in you, you can't accept certain things as coming from God.
This is because the attributes of God are flourishing in you.

So, rejecting the notion that 25 million Sikhs will roast in hell forever because they are not Baha'i is not pride or self-righteousnsess.
It is rather an indication that God's love and justice are flourishing in my character. Pride is not compatible with love.

And, love is not compatible with self-deception. The Scripture says that anyone who does not believe in Jesus (which includes accepting that Jesus is God) will be condemned, and the sikhs (all of the muslim faith) deny the deity of Jesus. So yes, those 25 million sikhs (and all the rest of the muslim faith) will be condemned to Hell for eternity (along with everyone else who does not trust in Jesus).

 

[Studyman]

How did Noah undo what happened to the children of Ham?

In my understanding, Noah was a preacher of God's Righteousness, as such he delivered God's Word to his sons, in the same way God delivered His Word to Adam and Eve, and Cain and Able. It's up to the one receiving the Word to choose to believe and accept it or disbelieve and reject it. Not sure where you got the idea that Noah had the power to "Undo" what his sons or grandsons did.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And, love is not compatible with self-deception. The Scripture says that anyone who does not believe in Jesus (which includes accepting that Jesus is God) will be condemned, and the sikhs (all of the muslim faith) deny the deity of Jesus. So yes, those 25 million sikhs (and all the rest of the muslim faith) will be condemned to Hell for eternity (along with everyone else who does not trust in Jesus).

Well, here I go again, my brother:

TO ALL READERS AND PUBLIC OPINION

I, Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, 58, male, Mexican citizen, Baha'i, married, who participate in this Forum under the nickname Pancho Frijoles and whose photo profile is authentic, firmly reject the statement made by the Forum Member @Doug Brents. I consider the statement absurd, non-Biblical, and evil.

I publicly condemn any statement made by any means, including this Internet Forum, that approves the torture or extermination of religious groups. It does not matter if such torture and extermination is performed in this life or the afterlife. It does not matter if it is executed by human or non-human agents. It doesn't matter if the persons making the statement try to justify it based on extracts from religious or sacred texts.
I condemn it all the same as a statement that supports genocide* and promotes hatred.

Be it known to all that I will keep opposing and fighting any genocidal discourse with all means in my hand according to the law when applicable, in accordance with the norms of this Forum and the divine attributes of wisdom, justice and mercy. Be God, our readers and our @Administrator my witnesses.

*The United Nations defines genocide as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group:​

1. Killing members of the group.
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

These acts are seen as attempts to eradicate the very existence of the targeted group. It’s a stark reminder of the importance of protecting human rights and promoting peace. If you're interested in the detailed wording, you can read more about it in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide on the UN's official website. Source: https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide​

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, here I go again, my brother:

TO ALL READERS AND PUBLIC OPINION

I, Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, 58, male, Mexican citizen, Baha'i, married, who participate in this Forum under the nickname Pancho Frijoles and whose photo profile is authentic, firmly reject the statement made by the Forum Member @Doug Brents. I consider the statement absurd, non-Biblical, and evil.

I publicly condemn any statement made by any means, including this Internet Forum, that approves the torture or extermination of religious groups. It does not matter if such torture and extermination is performed in this life or the afterlife. It does not matter if it is executed by human or non-human agents. It doesn't matter if the persons making the statement try to justify it based on extracts from religious or sacred texts.
I condemn it all the same as a statement that supports genocide* and promotes hatred.

Be it known to all that I will keep opposing and fighting any genocidal discourse with all means in my hand according to the law when applicable, in accordance with the norms of this Forum and the divine attributes of wisdom, justice and mercy. Be God, our readers and our @Administrator my witnesses.

*The United Nations defines genocide as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group:​

1. Killing members of the group.
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

These acts are seen as attempts to eradicate the very existence of the targeted group. It’s a stark reminder of the importance of protecting human rights and promoting peace. If you're interested in the detailed wording, you can read more about it in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide on the UN's official website. Source: https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide​

Yep, there you go again.

It does not matter what you think, accept, reject, condemn, or approve of. What matters is what Scripture says. And Scripture is very clear that everyone, every single man, woman, and child will die at some point (either in the natural course of events or at the end (and destruction of) the entire universe. And then every man, woman, and child will be judged by the creator of all that is. He will take those who love and trust in Him to live with Him in Heaven, and the rest will be sent to a place where He is not, and we call this place where He is not "Hell". Will the condition of the souls of those in Hell be terrible? Yes. Is it a place we should aspire to go? No. But is it clear that God will send the vast majority of humanity there? Absolutely it is. But here's the rub: it is our choice where we go! We get to choose to love and trust God, or reject Him and trust in something (anything) else. This is not anything like what you describe as "genocide".

 

[Seabass]

I've always wondered when do you know you've done enough work to earn your salvation? But I've always thought of work salvation as an ego trip or a pride thing. That we humans feel the need to help God out In our redemption. It's very easy to turn our obedience into pride. The Pharisees were excellent at it. The Apostle Paul showed the foolishness of that when he explained his pedigree. Acts 23:6; 26:5 and Philippians 3:5

Then he explains the truth:
What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ Philippians 3:8

So what's the cost of following Christ? Everything!

God is to be first and foremost in our lives at all times, even above your father, your mother, your brother, your sister, or even your life. Christ is to be first. And He said if you’re not willing to make that decision, and not willing to make that choice, you cannot follow Him. “Whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it—lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’?” Luke 14:27-30

In other words, Jesus is saying, “If you’re going to follow Me, sit down and count the cost.”

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God”
Romans 12:

---Salvation is a free gift, therefore it cannot be earned

---though salvation is a free gift. It's a fact that free gifts can come with conditions (see story of Naamn) and salvation comes with the conditions of obedience yo God's will. Hence this is why you will not find disobedient people being UNconditionally saved.

--obedience is not a work of merit, obedience earns nothing, Lk 17:7-10

---the BIble spells out clearly what these conditions are that must be met before one can receive the free gift of salvation, it's not a mystery shrouded by the unknown. One must believe, Jn 8:24; repent Lk 13:3; confess, Mt 10:32-33 baptism Mk 16:16; live a faith life to Christ unto death, Rev 2:10.

 

[Seabass]

God has straightforwardly made His will through what He has commanded in His law (Psalms 40:8) and obeying it is doing works, but someone could have any number of motivations for obeying His law, some of which are correct while others are not. For example, someone could obey God's law because they love God, they have faith in God, they want to experience godly character, they want to do what is for their own good, they want to grow in a relationship with God, they want to worship God, they want to testify about God, they want to avoid going to hell, they want to earn their salvation, they want to look pious, and so forth. Faith is a correct motivation for doing works in obedience God's will while earning our salvation is not.

There is a huge difference between the position that our salvation requires us to choose to do good works (which many verses support) and the position that our salvation requires us to choose to do good works in order to earn it as a wage (which many verses deny).

Obedience is a work, but it is not a work of merit. No example in the Bible where a person's obedience to God is called a work of merit whereby that person earned God's free gift or God owed that person for their obedience.

Good works are not the necessary condition God placed upon receiving His free gift of salvation. It is obedient works in doing God's will in believing, repenting confessing with the mouth and submitting to baptism that God saves a person.

A person can do a million good works but they will never be saved until they OBEY by submitting to God's will in doing what God has said that saved. There are many unbelievers in Christ that do good works, there are atheists who do many good moral works but those good works will not save them for, again, it takes OBEDIENCE in doing what God said in believing, repentance,confession and baptism. Acts 10, Cornelius was a good moral man but he was lost for he had no NT faith for he not heard nor obeyed the gospel of Christ, (Rom 1:16; Rom 10:17; 2 Thess 1:8).....no salvation apart from the gospel of Christ, apart from obedience to the gospel of Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yep, there you go again.

It does not matter what you think, accept, reject, condemn, or approve of. What matters is what Scripture says.

No. It does not matter what Scripture says. It matters what God says and what you and I say.

IT MATTERS WHAT GOD SAYS

God created the Bible, and not the other way around.
To understand what God says, you must consider Scripture along with reason and the advice of your mom.
(When I say "advice of your mom" I refer to the most basic notions of good and evil we got in our early childhood. For example, that it is a bad thing to hurt a child of another religious group).

That's why I affirm again:
Evil is evil, and genocide is genocide, regardless of any attempt to justify it based on extracts from religious or sacred texts.

The Bible does not teach that Sikhs or Muslims deserve to be tortured forever because of their religion.
However, if you are so convinced that the Bible teaches so, why haven't you rejected the Bible as inspired by God? That would be the ethical thing to do!

IT MATTERS WHAT YOU AND I SAY

We are not God's spokesmen. In this Forum, we are responsible for the opinions we share.
Otherwise we could just close the Forum and stay at home reading the Bible by our own and believing what we want to believe.
So, regardless of what the Bible says, the important thing here is whether YOU, my brother, think that 25 million Sikhs and 2,400 million Muslism deserve to be eliminated or tortured forever afterlife due to their religion.
The Bible does not need salvation. You and I do. So, what we think, speak and do is what matters.

Do you personally commit with the words you have posted?

 

[Seabass]

No. It' the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 11:6
But if this is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of actions. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

You took three verse out of context and read a faith only bias into each one.

1)
Obedience is not a work of merit. Therefore the 'not of works" Paul refers to in Eph 2:9 is NOT referring to obedience to God but works of merit. If one could merit their salvation that would be something to boast about. OBDIENCE is nothing to boast about, Lk 17:7-10:
"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."
Even when one does all that is his duty to do he still is unprofitable and being unprofitable is nothing to boast about. No one will be perfect, sinless in doing what is their duty, so obedience is nothing to boast about.

Look at the order of events as Paul puts them in Rom 6:17-18
1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin (justification)

Paul put obedience BEFORE justification and that obeying from the heart earned NOTHING. It is a requirement GOD put upon HIS OFFER of the free gift of salvation

2)
Rom 11:6

In the book of Romans, Paul is NOT contrasting grace from obedience to God but contrasting grace from works of merit. Rom 6 Paul points out that because the Christian (not sinner) is saved by grace that does not give the Christian a license to live in disobedience to God's will. A disobedient person is serving "sin unto death" and not "obedience unto righteousness". Hence grace and obedience are not antagonistic to one another but go hand in glove.

In Rom 11 Paul is point out that God bases salvation upon an OBEDIENT faith and not upon ancestery. The Jews wrongly tho't that simply because they were Abrham's descendants that meant some automatic, uncondtional salvation for them. There is no amount of work a person can do to have sins forgiven, no one's work will be perfectly sinless to merit salvation therefore it takes grace to have forgiveness of sins. Those Jews could not keep the OT law sinlessly perfect to merit salvation for they sinned.
Yet it takes an OBEDIENT faith to receive grace. This is why you cannot cite a NT example of a person who was continually living in disobedience, defiance to God's will being UNconditionally saved while remaining disobedient to God. Hence salvation requires man's obedience, but since man's obedience is not sinlessly perfect that where God's grace comes in.

Paul already required obedience in the book of Romans in repenting (Rom 2:4-5) confession (Rom 10:9-10) baptism (Rom 6:3f) so why would Paul turn around and CONTRADICT this in Rom 11:6 as some think he did by eliminating obedience????

The context of Rom 11 shows that the obedient have always been God's people......in the OT times those that were God's people were the ones that OBEYED by not bowing to Baal NOT the ones that disobeyed by bowing to idols. And "at this present time" (NT dispensation) it was a remnant of Jews that were saved according to election of grace. Which Jews were the ones saved? The ones that disobeyed Peter in Acts 2 refusing to repent and be baptized? NO! It was the obedient Jews that acted in accordance to God's unmerited grace that obeyed by repenting and being baptized therefore received God's grace.


3)
Gal 2:16
"works of the law" the law here refers to the OT law of Moses and no one can be justified by that law for that law had the curse (Rom 3) that curse being it required the Jew to keep it perfectly sinless to be justified by that law and no Jew could do that leaving the Jew cursed by the law, hence that OT law left the Jew just as unjustified as the Gentile (Rom 3:9). So no one can be justified by the OT law that requires strict perfect law keeping but people can be justified by the NT gospel of Christ that requires a simple faith obedience.

 

[Seabass]

Faith is not works. Faith wrongly understood might be “works.” But that's not what the Bible means by faith, the Bible itself is the basis for this absolute distinction.

Salvation by faith is not salvation by works. You can deny salvation by faith by equating it with salvation by works but you would be way off page. Scripture prevents that equation. The very places we learn that salvation is not by works are the places we learn that it is by faith.

And salvation by faith is in perfect harmony with salvation by grace. So once again, it is the Scripture that teaches us this; indeed, salvation is by faith in order that it may be according to grace.

Faith is a work else it is dead.

Mark 2:1-5 the faith Jesus 'saw" was the WORK the men did in lowering the sick man thru the roof to Jesus so He could heal him.

---

faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies Rom 5:1
works (obedience) >>>>> justifies James 2:24

Since there is but one way to be saved/justified, no alternatives, and the Bible does not contradict itself, then Rom 5:1 and James 2:24 must say the same thing. Faith must include obedient works and both faith and obedience justify. The Bible ties faith to obedience so tightly that faith is itself an OBEDIENT work. Hence faith apart from obedience I'd dead being alone.

Lev 17:11 says the life of the flesh is in the blood...take away the blood kill life. Likewise the life of faith is in the obedient works, take away the works kills faith. Hence faith and obedient works are inseperable to having spiritual life as blood and flesh are inseaparble to having physical life

 

[Doug Brents]

No. It does not matter what Scripture says. It matters what God says

Scripture IS what God says.

The Bible does not teach that Sikhs or Muslims deserve to be tortured forever because of their religion.
However, if you are so convinced that the Bible teaches so, why haven't you rejected the Bible as inspired by God? That would be the ethical thing to do!

The "ethical" thing to do is to judge based on the source of all ethics: the Bible! If the Bible teaches it, then it is, by definition, not unethical.

IT MATTERS WHAT YOU AND I SAY

We are not God's spokesmen. In this Forum, we are responsible for the opinions we share.
Otherwise we could just close the Forum and stay at home reading the Bible by our own and believing what we want to believe.
So, regardless of what the Bible says, the important thing here is whether YOU, my brother, think that 25 million Sikhs and 2,400 million Muslism deserve to be eliminated or tortured forever afterlife due to their religion.
The Bible does not need salvation. You and I do. So, what we think, speak and do is what matters.

What you believe does not change the truth. What I believe does not change the truth. Sure, it matters to our personal salvation that we believe (or don't believe) the truth. But that believe does not change what it true or isn't.
The 25 millions sikhs and 2.4 billion muslims aren't the only ones who will be condemned to Hell. There will be many who think (and claim) that they are Christians who will be condemned. They have deceived themselves.

Do you personally commit with the words you have posted?

Not really sure what you mean by this.

 

[Seabass]

There is absolutely no merit involved in the reception of God's free gift of eternal life/salvation. However, there is one condition that must be met on man's part in order to be a full beneficiary of Christ's atoning work [John 3:16]. Some mistake the meeting of that lone condition, trusting Christ's finished atoning work, as a meritorious act -- a tragic error indeed.

Trusting in Christ's finished work for our salvation is the only "act" of obedience/condition necessary for us to receive the free gift of eternal life/salvation --- and this "act of obedience" must never be viewed as a meritorious act. Any person who is considered "worthy" of eternal life in the eyes of God, can only be worthy in the sense that they have been covered by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. That is to say, their "worthiness" must be viewed in the sense of it existing solely as the consequence of it being a derived or imputed worthiness.

Revelation 3:4, "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy."

I agree there is no work of merit involved in receiving God's grace. But as the Bible point out, obedience is required to receive God's grace and nowhere ever does the BIble define obedience as a work of merit. Hence you cannot point to a single example in the Bible to where a person's obedience to God is called Ed a work of merit, where that obedience earned God's free gift or God owed that person for their obedience.

Until one learns works of merit and obedience are two ttotally, separate things one will never understand NT salvation.

Faith onlyists are therefore forced to rewrite the Bible to make it conform to their faith only bias...

Bible: repent and be baptized ...for the remission of sins
FO bias: trust in Jesus..for the remission of sins.

Furthermore, how can one even be said to "trust" in Jesus if one will not DO what Jesus says to do? Lk 6:46..."Why call ye Me Lord,Lord and DO NOT the things which I say?"

 

[Seabass]

@Seabass


A Christian who has been born of God, that which is Born of God cannot sin. Now that which is born of th flesh cannot stop sinning, but those sins are not imputed to the Justified person because Christ has took care of the punishment, yet God will chasten him or her out of Love Heb 12

1 Jn 1:7-10 Christians do sin and lie if they say they have no sin.
Peter as an Apostle sinned when he denied Christ 3 times. Those Christians in Corinth were engaged in various sins, hence Paul in each chapter is correcting them for their wrong doing. No correction needed if the Christian can do no wrong/sin.

Cannot does not mean impossible. The law says ine cannot go faster than the posted stepped limit but this does not make it impossible for people to go faster for they do it all the time..many getting a ticket for their transgression of the traffic laws.

The idea is that when one becomes a Christian he cannot CONTINUE to sin, not that it becomes impossible for the Christian to sin. Paul reminds those Corinthinas various sins they were engaged in 1 6:11...such WERE some of you. They could not become Christians and CONTINUE in those sins but it was still possible for them to sin a Christians and have the need for correction and repentance,

The BIble does NOT teach this Calvinistic idea of penalty substitution, that is the Bible does not teach that righteousness or unrighteousness are unconditionally "imputed" or transferred between Christ and men. No verse teaches the idea that sin is just an abstract idea that is transferred between people like a disease. Nor does it teach Christ became a sinner, a trash can recepticle for man's sin for the Bible clearly states that Christ was without sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. This penalty substitution thing is nothing more than a made up faith onlyists invention to try to find a way to justify the sinner while the sinner sits doing nothing.....just have the sinners sin unconditionally "imputed"/transferred to Christ and Christ's righteousness "imputed"/transferred to the sinner all while the sinner sits like a bump on a log doing nothing.

Grace is not given unconditionally or kept unconditionally.....it takes obedience else one recieves grace in vain 1 Cor. 6:1

 

[Seabass]

Yawn

Good luck earning your salvation my friend.


Many people before me have tried to convince you. Many after me will do the same. we will always pray for you

This is one of your many problems..you cannot present an accurate argument, just false strawmen.

I, nor anyone else here as far as I can see, has said salvation is earned...NO ONE. Yet you keep trying to tell other people that they believe something they do not.


What has been said as the BIble shows is that salvation is a free gift, and that GOD, not man, attached conditions to HIS free gift and obedience in meeting those conditions earns nothing. read Lk 17:7-10 on Jesus' discourse on obedience.

Your refusal to understand this simple idea does not make other people wrong. It's why you will NEVER EVER show a single NT example anywhere of a person's obedience being called a work of merit where their obedience earned God's free gift or that God owed that person for their obedience.

Amazing how much allegiance some have to man made doctrines rather than to the Bible.

 

[brightfame52]

@Seabass

1 Jn 1:7-10 Christians do sin and lie if they say they have no sin.

I never said a believer doesnt sin, that shows you haven't paid attention to the post.

 

[Seabass]

Hi, Seabass!

I agree with you and I think the connecting words you use (and that I'm highlighting in red and larger type) are key.
Obedience (and all fruits of the Spirit) is not something that happens apart from the process of salvation: it is intrinsic to it.

To think in salvation apart from obedience is like thinking in a good tree apart from bearing good fruits. There is no such a thing. As Jesus said, a tree that does not bear fruits is to be chopped off and thrown to the fire.

We are saved so that we think and act as saved people. Otherwise "saved" is an empty word.

Hi,

we each are doing one of two things; we are either being faithfully obedient to God's will or we are living in disobedience to God's will...no other options.

Paul put it this way in Rom 6:16 that we each are serving either one of two masters, we are either serving
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
or
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

..no other options.


So the question for faith onlyists is where does the Bible teach those who continually live in disobedience to God, that is, those that are continually serving 'sin unto death' will be UNconditionally saved while continuing to serve disobedience, defiance to God's will? It's not there.

Note also how Paul said obedience UNTO righteousness, that being obedience is what LEADS one to being righteousne hence no obedience = no righteousness. Paul did NOT say one obeys BECAUSE one already was made righteous for some unknown reason.

Faith onlyism denies the idea of "obedience unto righteousness" and if faith onlyism does not serve obedience unto righteousness what other master is there for it to serve?


You make the analogy of a tree apart from bearing good fruits. I make the analogy between faith and obedience from Lev 17:11:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood:....."

As it takes BOTH flesh and blood to have physical life it takes BOTH faith and obedient works to have spiritual life.

Since life of the flesh is in the blood, take away the blood kill the life.
The life of faith is in the works (James 2) hence takes away the work of obedience kill the faith ..faith is dead being alone apart from faith.

The BIble ties faith to obedience to tightly making them inseparable hence faith is a work. One cannot be saved with by faith alone no more than one can be saved by works alone it takes BOTH faith and obedience...cannot have spiritual life without both

 

[Seabass]

That Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord, was a just man and a preacher of righteousness and walked with God before he built the ark is a key issue of the heart. (Genesis 6:8-9; 2 Peter 2:5)

Well, that was certainly not the case for Noah, so your argument is moot.

You put a lot of faith in man's performance and self-preservation and no faith in God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) You also seem to underestimate the grace of God which operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. (Romans 1:16; 10:16)

We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) Choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (choosing to believe the gospel) is the act of obedience that saves. No amount of works can save you. Romans 5:19 - For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. You need to look to Jesus and not to self for salvation. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

Don't confuse "faith only" per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works - James 2:14) with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9) Those who have been saved by grace through faith are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

OSAS is not foreign to what the NT teaches. (John 6:38-40; 10:27-30; Romans 8:30-39; Romans 11:29; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30; Philippians 1:6; 1 John 2:19; Jude 1:1)

Faith that never obeys at all is not genuine faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Those who truly are saved are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) are preserved in Christ (Jude 1:1) are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13) who is the guarantee of our inheritance unto the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:14) You could never be obedient enough to take away your own sins and earn your salvation. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)

I can see where NOSAS easily leads a person to conditionally trust in works for salvation, which you obviously do. I can see that you need to repent (change your mind) and place your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Acts 20:21; Ephesians 2:8,9) You need to choose to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

You avoid the issue.

Of course Gen 6:8 says Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, no one is disputing that. Again,here is the issue: would he have CONTINUED to find grace if he had siboeyed GOd in not building the ark? NO!

Why did he find grace in the eyes of God in GEn 6:8? Did he UNconditionally find grace in the eyes of GOd apart from obedience to God, that is he was in God's grace because he continually live in disobedience to GOd? Of course not. He CONDITIONALLY found grace in God's eyes because he obeyed God and he had to CONTINUE to obey (in building the ark) God to remain in God's grace.

There is no such thing as receiving God's saving grace UNconditonally (by faith only) and no such a think as UNconditionally remaining in God's grace (no OSAS). You really want to argue he would have still be saved from the flood had he disobeyed God? He would continue to receive grace from God by living in defiance of God's will?

No faith only, no OSAS, no UNconditional salvation..all foreign to NT gospel of Christ.

 

[Seabass]

@Seabass



I never said a believer doesnt sin, that shows you haven't paid attention to the post.

Here is what you posted: (in blue)

"A Christian who has been born of God, that which is Born of God cannot sin. Now that which is born of th flesh cannot stop sinning, but those sins are not imputed to the Justified person because Christ has took care of the punishment, yet God will chasten him or her out of Love Heb 12"

What I underline is what you posted. You seem to being saying the Christian who is born of God cannot sin and therefore I understood it to mean you saying just that, the Christian cannot sin.

You posted:
--the Christian born of God cannot sin
--that which s born of flesh cannot stop sinning

The Christian is born of God yet he is was also physically born of the flesh. So which is it, the Christian cannot sin because he is born of God or he does sin because he is also fleshly born?

I need more clarification from you.

 

[brightfame52]

@Seabass

Here is what you posted: (in blue)

I know what I posted

 

[Seabass]

I know what I posted

I reminded you of what you posted and you posted:


"A Christian who has been born of God, that which is Born of God cannot sin."

How is "cannot sin" suppose to be understood?

 

[Studyman]

Well, here I go again, my brother:

TO ALL READERS AND PUBLIC OPINION

I, Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, 58, male, Mexican citizen, Baha'i, married, who participate in this Forum under the nickname Pancho Frijoles and whose photo profile is authentic, firmly reject the statement made by the Forum Member @Doug Brents. I consider the statement absurd, non-Biblical, and evil.

I publicly condemn any statement made by any means, including this Internet Forum, that approves the torture or extermination of religious groups. It does not matter if such torture and extermination is performed in this life or the afterlife. It does not matter if it is executed by human or non-human agents. It doesn't matter if the persons making the statement try to justify it based on extracts from religious or sacred texts.
I condemn it all the same as a statement that supports genocide* and promotes hatred.

Be it known to all that I will keep opposing and fighting any genocidal discourse with all means in my hand according to the law when applicable, in accordance with the norms of this Forum and the divine attributes of wisdom, justice and mercy. Be God, our readers and our @Administrator my witnesses.

*The United Nations defines genocide as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group:​

1. Killing members of the group.
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

These acts are seen as attempts to eradicate the very existence of the targeted group. It’s a stark reminder of the importance of protecting human rights and promoting peace. If you're interested in the detailed wording, you can read more about it in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide on the UN's official website. Source: https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide​

I certainly agree with you that the Bible doesn't promote the popular religious philosophy that God grants immortality to all mortal humans, only to torture some of them for eternity, as Doug believes and teaches.

I challenged this teaching on this very forum many times, even asking questions concerning it from you, my friend. But this philosophy is ingrained into Mainstream Christianity as well as other religions of this world and is considered a Biblical Truth. Challenging it by asking questions would be considered asking "hard" questions by many, and I have found that most simply will not answer.

The "God of Abraham", in my understanding of Scriptures, doesn't promote "Killing the Infidel or Pagan or Amalekite or anyone, as many of the religious sects of this world's religious system promote. Doing so is breaking God's commandment. The Holy Bible specifically spells this out concerning where the Faithful's battle takes place and who/what the enemy is. I shared this with you I believe, concerning the killing of the Amalakites and even asked a couple of questions if you remember. But you didn't engage.

As for the popular religious philosophy of this world's religious system, both Mainstream Christianity and Islam, that God grants His Gift of Immortality to all mortal humans, and that some spend eternity in torture, and some spend eternity in paradise, is certainly not what the Bible teaches. I don't know a lot about the Koran, but what little I do know, it is said that "it is the person who decides his own fate, be it good or bad. It is he who masters his own mind and his own senses. Indeed Allaah has shown all the people the way that leads to the good and the one that leads to the bad."

In the Holy Bible, a similar statement is made by God.

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I" have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose life", that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

As it is written in the Holy Scriptures, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have "right to the tree of life", and may enter in through the gates into the city".

My friend, I don't care about this world's religions, or their philosophies and I invite you to "come out of them" as well. As you have said, it is only natural that mortal humans die, and we will both come to this place, even as Jesus came to this place.

Heb. 5: 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able "to save him from death", and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I too, seek Glory and Immortality from the same God who is also able to save me from eternal death, through His Appointed Priest.

I commend your courage in standing against the foolish and un-Biblical religious philosophies promoted by this world's religious system, including, but not limited to religions who "Come in Jesus' Name".

Your friend, Greg.