"Works Salvation"

[Eternally-Grateful]

NT faith that saves results in producing obedience/good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Yet we are still saved by grace through faith and not by obedience/good works which "follow." Faith is faith and obedience which "follows" is works. Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which "follow" are the fruit. Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Unlike you, the apostle Paul clearly makes a distinction between faith AND works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." (James 2:15-16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8)

That is an oxymoron. If we were saved by works in addition to faith, then these works would merit salvation. You can't have it both ways.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. So, Abraham was not justified (accounted as righteous) by works but he was justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

The Greek word for justifed is dikaioo. From Thayers. - https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/eng/greek/1344.html

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be - Romans 4:2-6 fits the context.
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - James 2:21, 24 fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God's will for us in receiving eternal life. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Not to be confused with God's will AFTER we are saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) Misguided attempts at obedience that culminates in salvation by works is not God's will. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Those who refuse to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) are living in disobedience (Romans 10:16) in unrighteous defiance to His will (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) no matter how much other so-called obedience that they attempt to conjure up in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

In regard to Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation/place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness.

Being slaves of sin is put in the "past tense." Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

In regard to Romans 6:17, before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

Don't confuse faith only-ism per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works" - James 2:14) which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Big difference! You cannot seem to grasp this deeper faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation which also explains why you have so much faith in works for salvation.

Living in disobedience is 'descriptive' of unbelievers and not believers. (Ephesians 2:1-5) Misguided obedience that seeks to obtain salvation by works and refuses to believe the gospel is not obedience.

What will it take to get people to focus on faith int he work of god. And not faith in the works they produce?

 

[mailmandan]

Noah was one who did all that was commanded him, (Gen 6:22; Gen 7:5) yet his salvation from the flood was still a matter of God's grace. God's grace in saving Noah from the flood CONDITIONALLY required Noah obediently build an ark, which he did.

a) God owed Noah NOTHING for his obedience building the ark for Noah was simply doing his duty in obeying God in building the ark. Noah would have been condemned and lost in the flood has he not done his duty in obeying God.

b) Noah earned NOTHING in obediently building the ark for he was just meeting the necessary gracious conditions God place on his gracious gift of saving Noah from the flood.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" before he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth and drown in the flood waters, but of course, that was not the case. Only the wicked in Noah's day actually came in contact with the water and they all perished.

 

[mailmandan]

What will it take to get people to focus on faith int he work of god. And not faith in the works they produce?

I often hear works-salvationists make a distinction between works that are boastful and works that are not boastful in regard to receiving salvation (saved by "these" works/non-boastful works and just not "those" works/boastful works) but that is a purely human-made imaginary term because they want to boast in their personal definition of non-boastful works.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I often hear works-salvationists make a distinction between works that are boastful and works that are not boastful in regard to receiving salvation (saved by "these" works/non-boastful works and just not "those" works/boastful works) but that is a purely human-made imaginary term because they want to boast in their personal definition of non-boastful works.

If we are doing any type of work to get saved, stay saved, or stop us from losing salvation.

it is a work of merit.

And those who do them are boasting in self.

The only work that saves us is the work of the cross.. Boast int he work of God. Not in self

 

[mailmandan]

If we are doing any type of work to get saved, stay saved, or stop us from losing salvation.

it is a work of merit.

And those who do them are boasting in self.

The only work that saves us is the work of the cross.. Boast int he work of God. Not in self

Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

That prety much says it all

 

[dwight92070]

Mailman, you nailed it in #1401. I had to get a copy for my records. Thank you!

 

[dwight92070]

Biblically, what's the difference between "works" and "works of the law"? Paul uses both terms. It appears that "works of the law"are often referring to keeping the ceremonial or ritual laws, like the dietary laws, the commandments of keeping annual feasts, monthly new moons, and weekly Sabbath days. I think these works could be called "good" works, because it was a good thing to obey God's commands. But isn't it true that the Jews could trust in their obedience to ANY of the 613 commandments, as being their "ticket to salvation"? That trust would be unreliable, however, because, even during the Old Covenant, they were saved by faith, not works of the law.

When Paul speaks of the "works of the law", isn't he primarily speaking to believers who are Jews, or Gentiles who have converted to the God of the Jews? After all, they are the only ones who even attempted to obey the Law. However, I'm sure he's speaking to the rest of us also, i.e. those of us who are Gentiles and Jews who have become believers during this gospel age, after the Law became obsolete - Hebrews 8:13. We were never really under the Law of Moses at any point in our lives, except for that which God put in our heart and our conscience - Romans 1:18-21 and Romans 2:14-16.

But Paul speaks to us, this second group of believers too, because even though we were never really under the written Law of Moses, or the "works of the Law", we can gain insight into God's view of "works of the law" vs. faith.

We know that "works" or "good works" existed even before the Law of Moses, that is, even before the "works of the Law". Hebrews 11 gives us a whole chapter describing them. There has been "good works" since creation. (Hebrews 11:4) Hebrews 11 also demonstrates that faith has been in existence since creation.

The bottom line here is that what Paul says about "works" also applies to "works of the Law". We're not saved by either. In reality, there are no more "works of the Law" since the Law has been obsolete for over 2000 years - even though we see Jews today going through the motions of obeying the Law of Moses and setting their hope of salvation on that. Unfortunately, that is a house of sand.

 

[Studyman]

Hi Studyman, @Eternally-Grateful and @Dizerner

Honestly, I don’t think that apostle Paul or James would get engaged with tricky questions, whose possible answers depend on how we use words and concepts.

"Tricky"

1: inclined to or marked by trickery

2: giving a deceptive impression of easiness, simplicity, or order

Thank you, once again, for your perspective of my question. I asked it, because I ask myself the same question and this because it seems relevant to me and how I view God's Instruction. It is not intended as deceptive question, or as a form of trickery. I am sorry if you have been left with that impression.

Paul and James were not philosophers: they were pastors, and their concern was the arrogance within the church, that led to divisions.
The focus of Paul was the arrogance of those who boast on keeping the Law of Moses
The focus of James was the arrogance of those who boast on believing in God and Christ.
So, the point is to recognize in all truth that God is the ultimate source of any blessing we enjoy….

I agree, Truly Paul focused on a lot of things, and I believe everything he focused on.

Rom. 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind "I myself serve the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I would question the teaching that Paul is "boasting on keeping the Law of God", the same Word's Jesus said to Live by, in the above teaching, but I do know he exposed those preachers of his time who he defined, "that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?"

And I agree 100% with everything James teaches as well.

James 1: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but "a doer" of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

"The true author of any virtue we display… and therefore, that is no reason to act as if our religious practices or beliefs made us superior to other men."

Of course, God is no respecter of persons, as Paul was also focused on. If a man's religious practices and beliefs cause this man to live in transgression of God's Laws, he will receive the prophesied reward. Regardless of who he calls Lord, Lord in my understanding. If a man "Yields himself" a servant to God, and his body as instruments of righteousness unto God, he will also receive the prophesied reward.

Rom. 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that "worketh" good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

I don't believe you are superior to me, or I to you in God's Eyes. But I believe God is superior to me, and for this reason, speaking for myself, I adopt the practices and beliefs instructed and commanded by HIM and walked in by the examples of Faithful men given me in the Holy scriptures. Paul believed the very same thing, as it is written:

Wherefore, (because of these Biblical Truths), I labour, that, whether present or absent, I may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So no my friend, I don't believe one man is superior to another based on religious practices and beliefs. I believe God and His Son, the Jesus "of the Bible" are superior to me and my human reasoning.

This is why I asked the question about "works". What Jesus Righteous because HE did Him Own works, or because HE lived by the Works given to Him of His Father? And therefore, was He self-righteous, or a Faithful Servant of God?

It's not a trick question my friend.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"Tricky"

1: inclined to or marked by trickery

2: giving a deceptive impression of easiness, simplicity, or order

Thank you, once again, for your perspective of my question. I asked it, because I ask myself the same question and this because it seems relevant to me and how I view God's Instruction. It is not intended as deceptive question, or as a form of trickery. I am sorry if you have been left with that impression.



I agree, Truly Paul focused on a lot of things, and I believe everything he focused on.

Rom. 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind "I myself serve the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I would question the teaching that Paul is "boasting on keeping the Law of God", the same Word's Jesus said to Live by, in the above teaching, but I do know he exposed those preachers of his time who he defined, "that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?"

And I agree 100% with everything James teaches as well.

James 1: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but "a doer" of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

"The true author of any virtue we display… and therefore, that is no reason to act as if our religious practices or beliefs made us superior to other men."

Of course, God is no respecter of persons, as Paul was also focused on. If a man's religious practices and beliefs cause this man to live in transgression of God's Laws, he will receive the prophesied reward. Regardless of who he calls Lord, Lord in my understanding. If a man "Yields himself" a servant to God, and his body as instruments of righteousness unto God, he will also receive the prophesied reward.

Rom. 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that "worketh" good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

I don't believe you are superior to me, or I to you in God's Eyes. But I believe God is superior to me, and for this reason, speaking for myself, I adopt the practices and beliefs instructed and commanded by HIM and walked in by the examples of Faithful men given me in the Holy scriptures. Paul believed the very same thing, as it is written:

Wherefore, (because of these Biblical Truths), I labour, that, whether present or absent, I may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So no my friend, I don't believe one man is superior to another based on religious practices and beliefs. I believe God and His Son, the Jesus "of the Bible" are superior to me and my human reasoning.

This is why I asked the question about "works". What Jesus Righteous because HE did Him Own works, or because HE lived by the Works given to Him of His Father? And therefore, was He self-righteous, or a Faithful Servant of God?

It's not a trick question my friend.

Paul boasted in christ not self.

Paul even argued against boasting, and claimed if anyone had any reason to boast it would be him.. But he owuld boast in christ. Because nothign he could do would be worthy of saving himself. The chief of all sinners

 

[Dizerner]

Hi Studyman, @Eternally-Grateful and @Dizerner

Honestly, I don’t think that apostle Paul or James would get engaged with tricky questions,

Peter even said Paul wrote things difficult to understand that many twist to their own destruction. So Scripture disagrees with you.

The focus of James was the arrogance of those who boast on believing in God and Christ.

No, the focus of James was hypocrisy and endurance.

therefore, that is no reason to act as if our religious practices or beliefs made us superior to other men.

It is this postmodern idea that associates believing something is true with arrogance.

That simply claiming another person is wrong is somehow an intolerable offense and bigotry.

There are claims that simply contradict—only one can be right—if everyone is right, than no one is.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The focus of james was to look at self. Even in the hotly debated part of James 2. he is still telling people to focus on self.

he is not telling the church to look at a person and judge their works.

He is telling induviduals. (Us) to test our own faith. If we claim to have faiht, but have no works, can that faith save us?

As he says, You show me your faith apart from works. And I will demonstrate my faith by my works.

 

[Seabass]

lol. You can obey al you want, your still lost.

John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6 Jhn 1. Eph 1 and 2

I can go on and on

A work of merit is a work done to merit something.

If your working to meet salvation, then it is a work of merit

Faith is what saveds us not works.

If you do not have faith you will nto work

Stop focusing on water and works. And start focusing on christ

If you think God unconditionally saves disobedient unrighteous people then you lack the very basic understanding of NT Christianity.

Faith onlyism is DOA for you cannot show;
1) one example of a person who obeyed God where their obedience is called a work of merit where they earned God's free gift or God owed then for their obedience.
2) show a NT example at all of God unconditionally saving those who were continually living in disobedience, rebellion, unrighteous defiance of His will.
You post John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6 Jhn 1. Eph 1 and 2 but I see NOTHING in these context where God saved those who continually live in defiance and unrighteous disobedience to His will.

 

[Seabass]

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" before he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth and drown in the flood waters, but of course, that was not the case. Only the wicked in Noah's day actually came in contact with the water and they all perished.

God did not owe Noah salvation from the flood but God graciously extend Noah a way to be saved from the flood by building an ark. Had Noah disobeyed God and not built the ark he would have rejected God's grace and would have died in the flood. He had to FIRST obey in order to receive God's grace in salvation from the flood.


Will you try and argue Noah would have UNconditionlly received God's grace in being saved from the flood even if Noah defiantly disobey God by not building the ark?

God's grace is not received UNconditonally nor is receiving God's grace a one and done thing no matter how a person goes about living their life. One must obey God to receive God's grace and CONTINUE to be obedient to God to continue to receive God's grace and receive grace in vain (1 Cor 6:1) in turns to live in disbedience to God. Had Noah not continued to obey God in building the ark, he would have not received God's grace and died in the flood. Though Noah found grace in the eyes of God (Gen 6:8) he still had to obey God in building the ark to continue to receive God's grace (Grn 6:22).

And working together with him we entreat also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain, (2 Cor. 6:1).

1) grace is something received but is not received UNconditionally for grace is offered to all men (Tts 2:11) but all will not receive it for all will not CONDITONALLY obey God
2) the grace received must be CONDITONALLY kept by continuing to obey God, therefore Paul warns "receive not the grace of God in vain". No need for the warning if grace is received UNconditonally and kept UNconditonally. Obviously Paul did not teach OSAS. To the Galatians Paul said "ye have fallen from grace" for they did not continue to obey the truth, (Gal 3:1) they were "severed from Christ"

 

[Seabass]

NT faith that saves results in producing obedience/good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Yet we are still saved by grace through faith and not by obedience/good works which "follow." Faith is faith and obedience which "follows" is works. Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which "follow" are the fruit. Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Unlike you, the apostle Paul clearly makes a distinction between faith AND works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." (James 2:15-16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8)

That is an oxymoron. If we were saved by works in addition to faith, then these works would merit salvation. You can't have it both ways.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. So, Abraham was not justified (accounted as righteous) by works but he was justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

The Greek word for justifed is dikaioo. From Thayers. - https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/eng/greek/1344.html

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be - Romans 4:2-6 fits the context.
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - James 2:21, 24 fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God's will for us in receiving eternal life. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Not to be confused with God's will AFTER we are saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) Misguided attempts at obedience that culminates in salvation by works is not God's will. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Those who refuse to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) are living in disobedience (Romans 10:16) in unrighteous defiance to His will (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) no matter how much other so-called obedience that they attempt to conjure up in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

In regard to Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation/place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness.

Being slaves of sin is put in the "past tense." Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

In regard to Romans 6:17, before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

Don't confuse faith only-ism per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works" - James 2:14) which is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Big difference! You cannot seem to grasp this deeper faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation which also explains why you have so much faith in works for salvation.

Living in disobedience is 'descriptive' of unbelievers and not believers. (Ephesians 2:1-5) Misguided obedience that seeks to obtain salvation by works and refuses to believe the gospel is not obedience.

--There is no NT example of God UNconitionally saving people who continually live in defiance of His will. Rom 11. the Jews were cast off because they would not obey God Rom 10:3

--There is no example in the NT gospel of God UNconditonally saving sinners BEFORE hey obey God. Rom 6:17-18 has the order:
a) servants of sin
b) obey from the heart
c) then freed from sin (justified)

Paul said in v16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" NOT "obedience bacause you're already righteous" as you sem to think he said.

--Abraham was justified by his OBEDIENCE TO GOD in offering Issac, James 2:21 and obedience is not a work of merit nor anything to boast about, I have already posted what Christ said about obedience in Luke 17:7-10. Being an "unprofitable servant" is nothing to boast about. Abraham was not perfectly sinless in his obeying God, he had nothing to boast about.

---the faith that cannot justify is the faith that lacks obedience.... faith without works (obedience) is dead..... Salvation therefore is IMPOSSIBLE apart from obedience works in doing God's will.

 

[mailmandan]

God did not owe Noah salvation from the flood but God graciously extend Noah a way to be saved from the flood by building an ark. Had Noah disobeyed God and not built the ark he would have rejected God's grace and would have died in the flood. He had to FIRST obey in order to receive God's grace in salvation from the flood.

In Genesis 6:7-9, we read - So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. So, we see that Noah had already found grace and was a just man who walked with God before he built the ark. If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth and died in the flood waters, but of course, that was not the case.

Will you try and argue Noah would have UNconditionlly received God's grace in being saved from the flood even if Noah defiantly disobey God by not building the ark?

Well, Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord before he built the ark. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith and drowned in the flood waters along with everyone else, but that was not the case. Noah did not disobey God in this case which confirmed his faith.

God's grace is not received UNconditonally nor is receiving God's grace a one and done thing no matter how a person goes about living their life.

I never said anything about receiving God's grace unconditionally. In Romans 5:1-2, we read - Therefore being justified by faith, (not faith and works) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace (not faith and works) wherein we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Faith is the condition, so grace is not received unconditionally.

One must obey God to receive God's grace and CONTINUE to be obedient to God to continue to receive God's grace and receive grace in vain (1 Cor 6:1) in turns to live in disbedience to God.

So, according to you God's grace is received by works and God's grace is continued to be received/maintained by works? Is that what Paul said in Romans 5:1-2? What does 1 Corinthians 6:1 have to do with your argument? I believe you meant 2 Corinthians 6:1.

Had Noah not continued to obey God in building the ark, he would have not received God's grace and died in the flood. Though Noah found grace in the eyes of God (Gen 6:8) he still had to obey God in building the ark to continue to receive God's grace (Grn 6:22).

Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God before he built the ark. God knew Noah's heart and infallibly knew without a doubt that Noah would not disobey Him in building the ark. So, it's not about working to maintain grace.

And working together with him we entreat also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain, (2 Cor. 6:1).

Even though many of these Corinthians may have been saved it was still possible for them to be sidetracked by legalistic teachers in regard to ongoing sanctification, as we saw with the Galatians in chapter 3 and 5. Yet there are also "professing" believers mixed in who are not saved in which case Paul's presentation of the gospel would not have its desired effect which would also confirm Paul's concern.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

1) grace is something received but is not received UNconditionally for grace is offered to all men (Tts 2:11) but all will not receive it for all will not CONDITONALLY obey God
2) the grace received must be CONDITONALLY kept by continuing to obey God, therefore Paul warns "receive not the grace of God in vain".

So, how much obedience does it take? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have continued to obey God sufficiently so now the Lord will be able to save you? Your argument culminates in salvation by works.

No need for the warning if grace is received UNconditonally and kept UNconditonally. Obviously Paul did not teach OSAS. To the Galatians Paul said "ye have fallen from grace" for they did not continue to obey the truth, (Gal 3:1) they were "severed from Christ"

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self-effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, as for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! That settles it for me.

So, contemplating justification by the law after being sidetracked by legalistic teachers does not mean that these Galatians lost their salvation. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. No names are mentioned. No final sentence is pronounced. Paul's harsh words simply drive home the point that justification by the law and justification by faith are incompatible.

So, your argument about Paul not teaching OSAS is inconclusive. Elsewhere in Scripture, we see that Paul upholds OSAS.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[mailmandan]

--There is no NT example of God UNconitionally saving people who continually live in defiance of His will.

Who said anything about born again Christians continually living in defiance to God's will and being unconditionally saved? That is a straw man argument. In 1 John 3:7-10, we read - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Rom 11. the Jews were cast off because they would not obey God Rom 10:3

The Israelites (Jews) were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. In Romans 10:3, we read - For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, (legalism, works righteousness/works salvation) have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

--There is no example in the NT gospel of God UNconditonally saving sinners BEFORE they obey God. Rom 6:17-18 has the order:
a) servants of sin
b) obey from the heart
c) then freed from sin (justified)

I already thoroughly explained this to you in post #1,400. In regard to Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death and servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation/place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1) we then become servants of obedience unto righteousness.

Being slaves of sin is put in the "past tense." Romans 6:18 - You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

In regard to Romans 6:17, before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

Paul said in v16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" NOT "obedience bacause you're already righteous" as you sem to think he said.

Works-salvationists typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow" believing the gospel/saving faith in Christ are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. Works righteousness (self-righteousness) remains your Achilles heel.

--Abraham was justified by his OBEDIENCE TO GOD in offering Issac, James 2:21 and obedience is not a work of merit nor anything to boast about,

Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) in his obedience to God in offering Isaac (James 2:21)

Greek word for justified "dikaioo."

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

*Fits the context.

I have already posted what Christ said about obedience in Luke 17:7-10. Being an "unprofitable servant" is nothing to boast about. Abraham was not perfectly sinless in his obeying God, he had nothing to boast about.

More faulty human logic in your efforts to boast in your personal definition of non-boastful works. Being unprofitable servants who have only done what was their duty has nothing to do with being saved by non-boastful works.

---the faith that cannot justify is the faith that lacks obedience.... faith without works (obedience) is dead.....

The faith that justifies is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-9) and does not remain barren of works. (James 2:14) In regard to "faith without works is dead," (James 2:20) James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

Salvation therefore is IMPOSSIBLE apart from obedience works in doing God's will.

You clearly teach salvation by works in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

You confuse God's will for us to BECOME saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

With God's will for us AFTER we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If you think God unconditionally saves disobedient unrighteous people then you lack the very basic understanding of NT Christianity.

see what happened here fold. I posted multiple verses which show this very thing. He did not respond to any of them, or counter any of them, or look together with any of them to show how I got it wrong.

He just accused me of not knowing.

Faith onlyism is DOA for you cannot show;
1) one example of a person who obeyed God where their obedience is called a work of merit where they earned God's free gift or God owed then for their obedience.
2) show a NT example at all of God unconditionally saving those who were continually living in disobedience, rebellion, unrighteous defiance of His will.
You post John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6 Jhn 1. Eph 1 and 2 but I see NOTHING in these context where God saved those who continually live in defiance and unrighteous disobedience to His will.

See, What sea puppy here fails to understand is true saving faith. He can not pry himself away of boasting of his own works. True saving faith has works.. we work, not to get saved, keep ourself saved, or keep from losing salvation.

We work because we really do trust God and if we trust God with our eternity. He is probably trustworthy in our life on earth.

 

[mailmandan]

Biblically, what's the difference between "works" and "works of the law"? Paul uses both terms. It appears that "works of the law"are often referring to keeping the ceremonial or ritual laws, like the dietary laws, the commandments of keeping annual feasts, monthly new moons, and weekly Sabbath days. I think these works could be called "good" works, because it was a good thing to obey God's commands. But isn't it true that the Jews could trust in their obedience to ANY of the 613 commandments, as being their "ticket to salvation"? That trust would be unreliable, however, because, even during the Old Covenant, they were saved by faith, not works of the law.

When Paul speaks of the "works of the law", isn't he primarily speaking to believers who are Jews, or Gentiles who have converted to the God of the Jews? After all, they are the only ones who even attempted to obey the Law. However, I'm sure he's speaking to the rest of us also, i.e. those of us who are Gentiles and Jews who have become believers during this gospel age, after the Law became obsolete - Hebrews 8:13. We were never really under the Law of Moses at any point in our lives, except for that which God put in our heart and our conscience - Romans 1:18-21 and Romans 2:14-16.

But Paul speaks to us, this second group of believers too, because even though we were never really under the written Law of Moses, or the "works of the Law", we can gain insight into God's view of "works of the law" vs. faith.

We know that "works" or "good works" existed even before the Law of Moses, that is, even before the "works of the Law". Hebrews 11 gives us a whole chapter describing them. There has been "good works" since creation. (Hebrews 11:4) Hebrews 11 also demonstrates that faith has been in existence since creation.

The bottom line here is that what Paul says about "works" also applies to "works of the Law". We're not saved by either. In reality, there are no more "works of the Law" since the Law has been obsolete for over 2000 years - even though we see Jews today going through the motions of obeying the Law of Moses and setting their hope of salvation on that. Unfortunately, that is a house of sand.

We often hear the term, "works of the law" in Scripture since in many cases the audience being addressed was Jewish. However, churches also include Gentiles and Paul has used the word "works" without limiting it only to specific works of the law. In Titus 3:5 he affirmed that it is "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.." Likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity. So, it is not just "specific works of the law" of Moses, but ANY "works" or "works of righteousness" which we have done that are not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

Those who teach salvation by works will often try to "get around" this by saying we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). Now in James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So, which good works could a Christian accomplish which are completely "detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) Now are there any genuine good works that Christians accomplish which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourselves? Of course not.

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law, so the saved by "these" works (good works) but not saved by "those" works (works of the law) argument is bogus. That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to believe in/trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21) Their hands are full of their works, and they will not let go in order to receive Jesus Christ through faith.

 

[Seabass]

In Genesis 6:7-9, we read - So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. So, we see that Noah had already found grace and was a just man who walked with God before he built the ark. If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth and died in the flood waters, but of course, that was not the case.

Well, Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord before he built the ark. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith and drowned in the flood waters along with everyone else, but that was not the case. Noah did not disobey God in this case which confirmed his faith.

I never said anything about receiving God's grace unconditionally. In Romans 5:1-2, we read - Therefore being justified by faith, (not faith and works) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace (not faith and works) wherein we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Faith is the condition, so grace is not received unconditionally.

So, according to you God's grace is received by works and God's grace is continued to be received/maintained by works? Is that what Paul said in Romans 5:1-2? What does 1 Corinthians 6:1 have to do with your argument? I believe you meant 2 Corinthians 6:1.

Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God before he built the ark. God knew Noah's heart and infallibly knew without a doubt that Noah would not disobey Him in building the ark. So, it's not about working to maintain grace.

Even though many of these Corinthians may have been saved it was still possible for them to be sidetracked by legalistic teachers in regard to ongoing sanctification, as we saw with the Galatians in chapter 3 and 5. Yet there are also "professing" believers mixed in who are not saved in which case Paul's presentation of the gospel would not have its desired effect which would also confirm Paul's concern.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

So, how much obedience does it take? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have continued to obey God sufficiently so now the Lord will be able to save you? Your argument culminates in salvation by works.

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self-effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, as for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! That settles it for me.

So, contemplating justification by the law after being sidetracked by legalistic teachers does not mean that these Galatians lost their salvation. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. No names are mentioned. No final sentence is pronounced. Paul's harsh words simply drive home the point that justification by the law and justification by faith are incompatible.

So, your argument about Paul not teaching OSAS is inconclusive. Elsewhere in Scripture, we see that Paul upholds OSAS.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Gen 6:8 does say Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, but this is not this issue at hand.

The issue at hand is this: would Noah have CONTINUED to find grace in the eyes of the Lord had he disobeyed God and defiantly NOT build the ark as God commanded him. The answer is resounding NO! Noah would have been condemned and died in the flood with the rest of those wicked people. Any claim he would have continued to receive God's grace be saved anyway while disobeying God is completely unfounded and unbiblical.

The conclusion then is this: grace is not something received UNconditionally where it acts as a blanket to cover all sins of a person UNconditonally regardless of how that person lives.

Grace is initially received when a person FIRST CONDITIOANLLY obeys and grace is continued to be received as long as a person CONDITIONALLY continues to obey. This is why there is no example to be found in the NT gospel of people receiving grace BEFORE one CONDITIONALLY obeys.

1) salvation is received CONDITONALLY upon obedience....no obedience = no grace/no salvation
2) since grace is received CONDITIONALLY upon obedience, therefore it can be received in vain if a person quits CONDITONALLY obeying = no OSAS

Faith only and OSAS are both totally, completely foreign to what the NT teaches.

Faith only will NEVER save a person who will not obey.
OSAS will NEVER keep a person UNconditionally saved apart from continued obedience.