"Works Salvation"

[brightfame52]

I reminded you of what you posted and you posted:


"A Christian who has been born of God, that which is Born of God cannot sin."

How is "cannot sin" suppose to be understood?

I know what I posted, dont need you to remind me. And thats true, one who has been born of God cannot sin. He is born of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Now that person doesnt sin, thats why Paul said Rom 7

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 ;If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 ;Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

But the Christian was also born of the flesh, thats what sins or causes him or her to sin, but God doesnt hold them accountable for their sinning legally, He doesnt impute it to them Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The christian has two natures or principles of operation, they have been born of both

 

[Doug Brents]

I certainly agree with you that the Bible doesn't promote the popular religious philosophy that God grants immortality to all mortal humans, only to torture some of them for eternity, as Doug believes and teaches.

I challenged this teaching on this very forum many times, even asking questions concerning it from you, my friend. But this philosophy is ingrained into Mainstream Christianity as well as other religions of this world and is considered a Biblical Truth. Challenging it by asking questions would be considered asking "hard" questions by many, and I have found that most simply will not answer.

The "God of Abraham", in my understanding of Scriptures, doesn't promote "Killing the Infidel or Pagan or Amalekite or anyone, as many of the religious sects of this world's religious system promote. Doing so is breaking God's commandment. The Holy Bible specifically spells this out concerning where the Faithful's battle takes place and who/what the enemy is. I shared this with you I believe, concerning the killing of the Amalakites and even asked a couple of questions if you remember. But you didn't engage.

As for the popular religious philosophy of this world's religious system, both Mainstream Christianity and Islam, that God grants His Gift of Immortality to all mortal humans, and that some spend eternity in torture, and some spend eternity in paradise, is certainly not what the Bible teaches. I don't know a lot about the Koran, but what little I do know, it is said that "it is the person who decides his own fate, be it good or bad. It is he who masters his own mind and his own senses. Indeed Allaah has shown all the people the way that leads to the good and the one that leads to the bad."

In the Holy Bible, a similar statement is made by God.

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I" have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose life", that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

As it is written in the Holy Scriptures, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have "right to the tree of life", and may enter in through the gates into the city".

My friend, I don't care about this world's religions, or their philosophies and I invite you to "come out of them" as well. As you have said, it is only natural that mortal humans die, and we will both come to this place, even as Jesus came to this place.

Heb. 5: 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able "to save him from death", and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I too, seek Glory and Immortality from the same God who is also able to save me from eternal death, through His Appointed Priest.

I commend your courage in standing against the foolish and un-Biblical religious philosophies promoted by this world's religious system, including, but not limited to religions who "Come in Jesus' Name".

Your friend, Greg.

The only thing in your comment that I would take issue with is the idea that "God grants immortality to all humans and then sends some to eternal torture". There is nothing in Scripture that I can find that indicates that he soul of man (or any spiritual being) will ever cease to exist.

Let me define a couple of terms as I use them:
Immortal - having a beginning but no end (came into being at some point but will never cease being).
Eternal - having no beginning and no end (has always been and will always be).
God is the only eternal being.
All other spiritual beings (angels, humans, demons, etc.) are immortal by nature. They do not, and I believe cannot, cease to exist.

That being said, there are only two options for immortal spiritual beings: either they spend eternity with God, or they spend eternity away from God. God does not take people to be where He is who do not love Him, trust Him, and spend their Earthly life serving Him. So if these things are not true of a person, then that person will spend eternity away from God. We call the place where God is not Hell. And Hell is not the fire and torture and whatever that movies and popular media makes it. I believe that Hell will be terrible because God will not be there. It is God who gives life, and God who makes all things perfect, and we were made to be in relationship with Him. If we are not with Him, it will be like having an open wound that never heals and forever feeling the pain of that wound. And this is personal choice, not God being cruel. He has warned us what will happen, and offered us a way to avoid it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

---Salvation is a free gift, therefore it cannot be earned

yeppers

---though salvation is a free gift. It's a fact that free gifts can come with conditions (see story of Naamn) and salvation comes with the conditions of obedience yo God's will. Hence this is why you will not find disobedient people being UNconditionally saved.

But then you go an contradict yourself by saying we must do works

--obedience is not a work of merit, obedience earns nothing, Lk 17:7-10

Obedience to recieve something is a work of merit

---the BIble spells out clearly what these conditions are that must be met before one can receive the free gift of salvation, it's not a mystery shrouded by the unknown. One must believe, Jn 8:24; repent Lk 13:3; confess, Mt 10:32-33 baptism Mk 16:16; live a faith life to Christ unto death, Rev 2:10.

so you lied when you said salvation is a free gift. it can not be earned. And in the rest of the post you gave us the price you think one must pay to save themselves.

Got it

 

[Studyman]

I agree in part. But I think it goes much deeper than this. Then men were not only pastors but they were apostles.

Paul was fighting this religious attitude of merit based salvation. I agree with you that he spoke of those who focus on the law (gal 3) but he also focused on those who boasted in any work at all, in order to merit their salvation (romans 4 with titus 3: 5)

That isn't what was happening in Paul's Time. I hear these falsehoods promoted over and over and over. But that isn't the Attitude Paul was fighting at all.

Both Jesus and Paul were placed by God into a religious system that;

Mark. 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye "reject the commandment of God", that ye may keep your own tradition.

A religious sect who professed to know God, "Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it." (Acts 7:53)

A religious business selling forgiveness in the form of turtle doves and goats, who Jesus said " Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

A religious sect that Paul said:

Rom. 10: 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish "their own righteousness", have "not submitted themselves" unto the righteousness of God.

And yet Mainstream Christianity rejects "EVERY" Word of Jesus and the Law and Prophets, and Paul concerning the practices of the religious sect of the Pharisees based on a single sentence from Paul, "Not having my own righteousness, which is by the Law".

Refusing to accept or even consider that according to the Old Priesthood that the Pharisees were promoting their own version of, Sins can only be forgiven by taking a goat to the Levite Priest. A temporary Law "Added" because of Transgressions, Till the Seed, (The True Lamb of God) should come.

So according to what is actually written in the Holy Scriptures, the mainstream religion of Jesus and Paul's Time, wasn't trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God's Laws, "to the letter", as the deceivers of this would have us believe. They were promoting a Salvation through the religious philosophies and Traditions and Commandments of men, that Jesus Himself said they taught for Doctrines.

This is confirmed in many places, but one glaring example of the deception that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Laws is in Luke 1 & 2.

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Now, what "doctrine" did Zacharias promote?

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Why was this, according to the New Testament teaching?

Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, "whom God hath given" to them "that obey him". So this is why Zacharias received the Spirit of Truth, while the Pharisees didn't.


68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

So EG, according to what is actually written in the Bible, the Pharisees were NOT trying to earn God's favor by being a "Doer" of His Instruction, rather, they had created their own religion, with their own judgments, their own philosophies and traditions, even their own high days. Had they Loved God, and trusted God, "in Faith" like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, Caleb, David, Shadrack, Cornelious, Paul and all examples of Faithful men given to us in Scriptures, they would have known Jesus when HE came, just as Zacharias, Simeon and Anna all knew Jesus, before HE was even born.

Jesus warned of religious men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "come in His Name", and Paul warned specifically of men who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ, that we are not deceived by them. The popular religious philosophy, promoted by "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that the Pharisees were trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God's Law is an insidious falsehood, created by the prince of this world to demean God and His Instruction in Righteousness. Do the Study yourself, in Faith, and you will find the same Truth.

 

[Dizerner]

Requirements to receive something are not earning or meriting it.

It's simply a fallacy.

 

[Studyman]

The only thing in your comment that I would take issue with is the idea that "God grants immortality to all humans and then sends some to eternal torture". There is nothing in Scripture that I can find that indicates that he soul of man (or any spiritual being) will ever cease to exist.

Let me define a couple of terms as I use them:
Immortal - having a beginning but no end (came into being at some point but will never cease being).

This is your definition, not the Bibles. Paul said this mortal must put on immortality. Jesus said unless a man repents, he shall surely perish.

Ezekiel says, 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eve was told "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The Bible says, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So perhaps the "Spirit" God gives those who "may have the Right to the Tree of Life" has no beginning and no end, but the teaching that humans are already immortal, although very popular, is not what the Bible teaches.

But consider what the serpent taught. "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye "shall not" surely die:"

The philosophy that men are already immortal beings, with no beginning and no end, is a seductive philosophy, and truly it has been promoted by religious voices of this world since the very beginning.

I would "take heed" of such teaching if I were you.

Eternal - having no beginning and no end (has always been and will always be).
God is the only eternal being.
All other spiritual beings (angels, humans, demons, etc.) are immortal by nature. They do not, and I believe cannot, cease to exist.

This is a popular teaching no doubt, and God and the Angels are truly eternal beings. But Jesus was made lower than the angels, and was a mortal man, who prayed to the only God who could save him from death. To believe the religious philosophy of this world you are promoting, I would have to reject almost the entire Bible. I would have to reject the "Gift" of immortality, and would have to consider God, Jesus, Paul and all the Prophets, false teachers.

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, "eternal life":

Clearly Paul and Jesus and the Prophets were on the same page. But the religious philosophy that I am born with immortality, although very seductive, and popular, isn't supported by the Bible at all.

1 Cor. 15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, "then" shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Religious traditions and superstitions of this world are a powerful influence. This is why both Paul and Jesus taught us to"

2 Cor. 6: Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[Soyeong]

A gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving something the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it, so the Bible can speak against others salvation requires us to obey God’s law in order to earn our salvation as the result without speaking against the gift of our salvation intrinsically requiring us to be a doer of good works in order to experience it. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to contribute anything towards earning our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

Likewise, God’s gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God’s law is His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn it. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life. This is also why Jesus said in Luke 10:25-28 that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments and something that we inherit is a gift that we contribute nothing towards earning as a wage.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That isn't what was happening in Paul's Time. I hear these falsehoods promoted over and over and over. But that isn't the Attitude Paul was fighting at all.

Both Jesus and Paul were placed by God into a religious system that;

Mark. 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye "reject the commandment of God", that ye may keep your own tradition.

A religious sect who professed to know God, "Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it." (Acts 7:53)

A religious business selling forgiveness in the form of turtle doves and goats, who Jesus said " Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

A religious sect that Paul said:

Rom. 10: 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish "their own righteousness", have "not submitted themselves" unto the righteousness of God.

And yet Mainstream Christianity rejects "EVERY" Word of Jesus and the Law and Prophets, and Paul concerning the practices of the religious sect of the Pharisees based on a single sentence from Paul, "Not having my own righteousness, which is by the Law".

Refusing to accept or even consider that according to the Old Priesthood that the Pharisees were promoting their own version of, Sins can only be forgiven by taking a goat to the Levite Priest. A temporary Law "Added" because of Transgressions, Till the Seed, (The True Lamb of God) should come.

So according to what is actually written in the Holy Scriptures, the mainstream religion of Jesus and Paul's Time, wasn't trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God's Laws, "to the letter", as the deceivers of this would have us believe. They were promoting a Salvation through the religious philosophies and Traditions and Commandments of men, that Jesus Himself said they taught for Doctrines.

This is confirmed in many places, but one glaring example of the deception that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Laws is in Luke 1 & 2.

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Now, what "doctrine" did Zacharias promote?

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Why was this, according to the New Testament teaching?

Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, "whom God hath given" to them "that obey him". So this is why Zacharias received the Spirit of Truth, while the Pharisees didn't.


68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

So EG, according to what is actually written in the Bible, the Pharisees were NOT trying to earn God's favor by being a "Doer" of His Instruction, rather, they had created their own religion, with their own judgments, their own philosophies and traditions, even their own high days. Had they Loved God, and trusted God, "in Faith" like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, Caleb, David, Shadrack, Cornelious, Paul and all examples of Faithful men given to us in Scriptures, they would have known Jesus when HE came, just as Zacharias, Simeon and Anna all knew Jesus, before HE was even born.

Jesus warned of religious men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "come in His Name", and Paul warned specifically of men who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ, that we are not deceived by them. The popular religious philosophy, promoted by "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that the Pharisees were trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God's Law is an insidious falsehood, created by the prince of this world to demean God and His Instruction in Righteousness. Do the Study yourself, in Faith, and you will find the same Truth.

Not by works of righteousness (good works of any type) which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us.

Titus 3: 5

You want to earn your salvation (or try I should say it is impossible) feel free.

I will rest in Gods grace and mercy. and like paul run the race knowing that he who perfected me forever. is in the process of sanctifying me, and being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work WILL (not might) Complete it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Requirements to receive something are not earning or meriting it.

It's simply a fallacy.

if your doing a "Work" to recieve something, Your working for it or meriting it.

This is exactly what Paul was warning the roman church in romans 4

If paul was found by works, he has something to boast about..

 

[Doug Brents]

This is your definition, not the Bibles. Paul said this mortal must put on immortality.

The flesh is mortal, but the soul is immortal. The soul will not cease to exist when the body dies. It always goes somewhere: Heaven or Hell ().

Jesus said unless a man repents, he shall surely perish.

What is death? What does it mean to die/perish?
Does it mean to cease to exist? It can't, because (unlike the jedi in StarWars) the body does not vanish when a person dies.
I believe it means to become separated from that which gives life. When the body dies, it becomes separated from the soul that gives it life (James 2:26, Gen 2:7)(this is physical death). The soul then "dies" when it is cut off from that which gives it life: God (this is spiritual death). God told Adam that he would die on the day he ate from the Tree; yet he did not die physically until over 900 years later. So either God lied (He cannot lie (Heb 6:18)), or the death He promised was not physical but spiritual (Adam became separated from God spiritually).
In the verse you quote above, Jesus is not talking about physical death, but spiritual death. It is a warning that if we do not repent we are doomed to eternity separated from God.

Ezekiel says, 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Again, spiritual death; not the cessation of existence of the soul, but its separation from the source of life: God.

So perhaps the "Spirit" God gives those who "may have the Right to the Tree of Life" has no beginning and no end, but the teaching that humans are already immortal, although very popular, is not what the Bible teaches.

But consider what the serpent taught. "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye "shall not" surely die:"

The philosophy that men are already immortal beings, with no beginning and no end, is a seductive philosophy, and truly it has been promoted by religious voices of this world since the very beginning.

I would "take heed" of such teaching if I were you.

Did I not say specifically that, as I use it, immortal means to have a beginning? And we are not immortal in this world; everyone will die a physical death (except Enoch and Elijah, who were taken by God). But the soul does not cease to exist when the body dies.

This is a popular teaching no doubt, and God and the Angels are truly eternal beings.

The angels are not eternal beings. They were created, as was Satan (Eze 28:13).

But Jesus was made lower than the angels, and was a mortal man, who prayed to the only God who could save him from death.

Physical death.

To believe the religious philosophy of this world you are promoting, I would have to reject almost the entire Bible. I would have to reject the "Gift" of immortality, and would have to consider God, Jesus, Paul and all the Prophets, false teachers.

No. You are thinking of "immortality" as only "life in Heaven with God". But the evil souls (Satan and all those who do not accept God) still exist forever, but in eternal death, separated from God for eternity.

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, "eternal life":

Clearly Paul and Jesus and the Prophets were on the same page. But the religious philosophy that I am born with immortality, although very seductive, and popular, isn't supported by the Bible at all.

Again, there is eternal life and eternal death. Life with God, death with Satan. If we "seek for glory and honor and immortality in Christ we will receive eternity in Heaven with Him. If we do not, then we will receive eternity in Hell away from Him.

 

[Studyman]

Not by works of righteousness (good works of any type) which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us.

I was addressing your religious philosophy. "Paul was fighting this religious attitude of merit based salvation".

As the Scriptures show in my post clearly shows, he wasn't.

Why not just address what the post exposes or discuss with me what you believe is wrong about the post.

You want to earn your salvation (or try I should say it is impossible) feel free.

Why do you have to be so dishonest? Was Jesus "Trying to earn Salvation" when HE "humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross".

Was John promoting a "merit based" Salvation when he said;

1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

I will rest in Gods grace and mercy. and like paul run the race knowing that he who perfected me forever. is in the process of sanctifying me, and being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work WILL (not might) Complete it.

Yes, of course you do, what else would anyone say who calls Jesus Lord, Lord?


But I was speaking about the insidious falsehood being promoted by this world's religious businesses and sects, that you are also promoting, that the Pharisees were trying to "earn" salvation by obedience to God's Laws, as they were instructed by God to do.

That is what my post was about.

As far as conditions place on Salvation;

Luke 13: 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

In your religion, if I chose to become a "Doer" of Christ's instruction here, and repent, am I trying to "Earn Salvation"? Or is this a Work of faith?

John 15: 14 Ye are my friends, "if ye do" whatsoever I command you.

"IF" I submit to these Word's God gave to me through His Son, in your religion, am I trying to "Earn" the Favor of Jesus? Or is my submission to Him a "work" of Faith?

Paul said,

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members "as instruments of righteousness" unto God.

Since God's Grace was given to me, while I was yet a sinner, in other words, Jesus, my Passover, was killed while I was yet a sinner, in the exact same way that the Passover Lamb was slain while Israel was Yet in Egypt, then clearly this Grace came to me, "Not by works of righteousness that I had done".

But now what? "shall I continue to transgress God's commandments, because I am not under the law, (Dead in trespasses and Sins), but under grace? ( as those that are alive from the dead) God forbid. That means NO EG!

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, "his servants ye are" to whom ye obey; whether of "sin"(Transgression of God's Law) unto death,(still, even after Christ died for Paul) or of "obedience" unto righteousness?

If I submit to Paul's teaching here, in your religion, am I trying to "Earn Salvation" by "Yielding myself" to God, and my body as instruments of righteousness unto God?

Would you also accuse Eve of "Trying to Earn Salvation" if she had listened to God, instead of the "other voice" in the garden that also "Professed to know God"?

The point is, Paul was not "fighting this religious attitude of merit based salvation".

He was fighting against what Jeremiah prophesied of.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision "of their own heart", and "not out of the mouth of the LORD". 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one "that walketh after the imagination of his own heart", No evil shall come upon you.

And lastly, the Jesus "of the Bible" said;

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If a man strives to enter this Narrow Path, that Jesus walked in, in your religion, is this man "Trying to Earn Salvation", and therefore condemned like the Pharisees, or does this man simply Love God and His Son with all his heart, and has placed his trust in Them with his very life?

No EG! Paul wasn't "fighting this religious attitude of merit based salvation". He was fighting "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

 

[Soyeong]

Not by works of righteousness (good works of any type) which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us.

Titus 3: 5

You want to earn your salvation (or try I should say it is impossible) feel free.

I will rest in Gods grace and mercy. and like paul run the race knowing that he who perfected me forever. is in the process of sanctifying me, and being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work WILL (not might) Complete it.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to contribute anything towards earning our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so while it is not possible to earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

 

[Grace ambassador]

works salvation?

Yes, and NO! Depends which dispensation one lives in - are you, precious friend (we still pray for),
"living In" the Correct One?

UnScriptural or UNdispensational?

may [ Thank God if it is ], or probably may not, be helpful, eh?

Amen.

 

[mailmandan]

You avoid the issue.

Not at all.

Of course Gen 6:8 says Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, no one is disputing that.

Before he built the ark.

Again,here is the issue: would he have CONTINUED to find grace if he had siboeyed GOd in not building the ark? NO!

Why would Noah, a just man and a preacher of righteousness who had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord refuse to build the ark? Your argument is moot but since you teach salvation obtained and maintained by works it's the only thing you are capable of understanding.

Why did he find grace in the eyes of God in GEn 6:8? Did he UNconditionally find grace in the eyes of GOd apart from obedience to God, that is he was in God's grace because he continually live in disobedience to GOd? Of course not. He CONDITIONALLY found grace in God's eyes because he obeyed God and he had to CONTINUE to obey (in building the ark) God to remain in God's grace.

Noah met the condition of faith in order to find grace in the eyes of the Lord. Just as we do today. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it. Your argument here culminates in "type 2 works salvation."

There is no such thing as receiving God's saving grace UNconditonally (by faith only) and no such a think as UNconditionally remaining in God's grace (no OSAS).

Read Romans 4:5-6; 5:1-2 and Ephesians 2:8,9 very carefully apart from your bias and eisegesis. Man is justified/accounted as righteous/saved through faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone. Not to be confused with "faith only" per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith) that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome and I have found that ALL false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which is a major red flag for me.

You really want to argue he would have still be saved from the flood had he disobeyed God? He would continue to receive grace from God by living in defiance of God's will?

You are still grinding on this moot issue? Noah would have drown in the flood if he chose to disobey God by refusing to build the ark but of course that was not the case. Deal with it.

Perverting the gospel is living in defiance to God's will (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) no matter how much so called obedience that you attempt to conjure up in a vain effort to obtain and maintain salvation by works.

No faith only, no OSAS, no UNconditional salvation..all foreign to NT gospel of Christ.

You are a broken record of confusion with "faith only" per James 2:24 which is in regard to a bare profession of faith that produces no works. (James 2:14) That does not negate salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) which you clearly are unable grasp.

Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is not UNconditional but is conditional on placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. OSAS is true IF you are truly saved to begin with. (Psalm 37:28; John 6:38-40; 10:27-30; Romans 8:30-39; 1 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Jude 1:1 etc..).

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout the Bible, throughout various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

Nothing I teach here is foreign to the NT gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) The gospel according to Campbelllism (what you teach) and is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics is foreign to the NT gospel of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

if your doing a "Work" to recieve something, Your working for it or meriting it.

This is exactly what Paul was warning the roman church in romans 4

If paul was found by works, he has something to boast about..

While the only way for someone to attain a character trait is through faith, what it means for someone to attain a character trait is for them to become a doer of that trait. For example, the only way for someone to become courageous is by faith apart from being required to have first done enough courageous works in order to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. This is why the same faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God’s law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:27-31). In other words, everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of God’s law, which is how Paul can deny in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works while also maintaining the position in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous.

 

[Studyman]

The flesh is mortal, but the soul is immortal. The soul will not cease to exist when the body dies. It always goes somewhere: Heaven or Hell ().

This is true, God preserves the essence of the spirit of men, for the final judgment. But as it is written,

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecc. 9: 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Job. 7: 9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. 10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Psalms 146: 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalms 6: 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

John 11: 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

1 Cor. 15: 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And not the end of evidence concerning the truth about the dead, but certainly a most important truth.

1 cor. 15: 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; "ye are yet in your sins". 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ (Like David and Stephen and Zacharias) are perished.

Can you read what Paul is saying here? Even Jesus, who was made lower than the angels, didn't have an immortal spirit. If god hadn't raised Him from the dead, HE would still be dead, just like Abraham.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (The First human ever to "Put on Immortality")

So men die Doug, and they remain dead until God Raises them. If he doesn't raise them from the dead, then they are eternally dead. And this because the spirit of man is not immortal. And the spirit of Abraham will be raised, and given immortality, just as Paul, David, Jesus and the entire Bible teaches. When the Christ comes back, the Dead will be raised. But right now, they know nothing, not even that they are dead.

I understand the religious traditions of this world concerning the dead, and that this world's religious businesses have created a cash cow, a religious industry concerning death that yields billions of dollars a year promoting your religious philosophy concerning death. But the Holy Scriptures know, David knew, Paul knew, Jesus knew, that there is no praising God in death. That "Immortality" is a gift that man is not born with. That is why it is written, "Today" if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts.

As Jesus tells those who believe in Him "Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. "

 

[Doug Brents]

This is true, God preserves the essence of the spirit of men, for the final judgment. But as it is written,

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecc. 9: 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

This is obviously talking about physical death, not spiritual death.

Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Job. 7: 9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. 10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Psalms 146: 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalms 6: 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

John 11: 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Again, physical death, all of these are talking about physical death.

1 Cor. 15: 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And not the end of evidence concerning the truth about the dead, but certainly a most important truth.

This is exactly what I have said; the righteous are raised from physical death to eternal life, but the evil are raised from physical death to eternal death.

1 cor. 15: 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; "ye are yet in your sins". 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ (Like David and Stephen and Zacharias) are perished.

Can you read what Paul is saying here? Even Jesus, who was made lower than the angels, didn't have an immortal spirit. If god hadn't raised Him from the dead, HE would still be dead, just like Abraham.

This is talking about physical death, not spiritual death.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (The First human ever to "Put on Immortality")

So men die Doug, and they remain dead until God Raises them. If he doesn't raise them from the dead, then they are eternally dead.

As John 5:28 says, God will raise everyone from physical death, but not all will receive eternal life; most will receive eternal death.

And this because the spirit of man is not immortal. And the spirit of Abraham will be raised, and given immortality, just as Paul, David, Jesus and the entire Bible teaches. When the Christ comes back, the Dead will be raised. But right now, they know nothing, not even that they are dead.

Jesus is eternal, not immortal (or mortal). When He had a physical body, that body was mortal, but He was ALWAYS eternal. He is the ONLY human whose spirit preexisted his physical body. All other souls are created new when the new body is formed in their mother's womb. But Jesus came down from Heaven to enter into His body formed for Him by the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:10).

 

[Dizerner]

if your doing a "Work" to recieve something, Your working for it or meriting it.

This is exactly what Paul was warning the roman church in romans 4

If paul was found by works, he has something to boast about..

To merit something, you have to provide something of equal worth, not just anything.

If I bring a bunch of Monopoly money to pay for a diamond ring, that is not meriting it.

If someone offers me a Lamborghini if I clap my hands, that is not meriting it.

Please take the time to actually read this and not skim the title:

Post in thread 'An Article on free will'

Jan 10, 2025

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will

Calvinists and Free Gracers make the same fundamental logical mistake, this is why they both accuse each other of back loading works. They insist that if action X produces result Y that necessarily means it was merited. This is a non sequitur. There is such a thing as a non meritorious work, an action that produces a result without earning it, such as receiving a gift. Now despite arguing this, Free Grace believes in real Free Will and so allows a "one little bitty mini-work" of free will acceptance of the Gospel message...

• Dizerner

• 

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Scripture IS what God says.

The "ethical" thing to do is to judge based on the source of all ethics: the Bible! If the Bible teaches it, then it is, by definition, not unethical.

The Bible is not the source of all ethics.
Remember that ethics existed long before the Bible was written, and has existed for all men although they haven't read a single page of the Bible.
The biblical authors take for granted that people who read their writings had ethical notions.

For this reason, a murderer raised in the Tibet, faced in the Final Judgement, could never tell God
"It wasn't my fault, you see? I murdered that man because I had never read the Ten Commandments". That wouldn't be excuse precisely because the Bible is not the source of ethics, but God, who embeds those ethics in all men.

What you believe does not change the truth. What I believe does not change the truth. Sure, it matters to our personal salvation that we believe (or don't believe) the truth. But that believe does not change what it true or isn't.

I agree completely.
But that is not my point.
My point is that, whatever the truth is, we commit with our words and actions to what believe to be true, and we are responsible for that.

So, if I write "It is ethical to do X", I cannot hide under a sacred text and pretend this has nothing to do with my choices and views. I cannot argue "It is not me who says it, it is the Bible... I am just following the text"

When something the Bible seems to say does not match with our heart, we must examine all the context, all the passages involved. We must pray and listen to the Holy Spirit. All this requires reason, common sense, a sensitive spirit. When applicable, we must resort to science.

In the case of the genocide, it doesn't take many years in the School of Theology to understand it is bad. Any five-year-old can tell you that it is BAD to hurt a group of people who practices any other religion. I personally learned it from my mom. This is basic.

The 25 millions sikhs and 2.4 billion muslims aren't the only ones who will be condemned to Hell. There will be many who think (and claim) that they are Christians who will be condemned. They have deceived themselves.

Perhaps it would be useful to discuss what "deceiving onelsef" means.

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree completely.
But that is not my point.
My point is that, whatever the truth is, we commit with our words and actions to what believe to be true, and we are responsible for that.

So, if I write "It is ethical to do X", I cannot hide under a sacred text and pretend this has nothing to do with my choices and views.

I have not said it is "ethical" to do anything. God is the one who has said what He will do to those who He has created that don't obey Him. He is the one who made us. Can we, the pots, say to the potter, "Why did you make us this way?", or "Why will you condemn us if we don't obey you?" NO! We have no right to question God about what He does with what He created out of nothing. If He chose to exterminate the lot of us (our souls too) and be done with the whole business, it is His right and privilege to do so. So for Hm to say that He is going to cast everyone who doesn't obey Him away from Himself is not immoral, unethical, or evil.